Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Iphi on September 11, 2007, 03:38:11 PM
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What is this? This is the heart of what I don't understand.
This is what my gut tells me that my family is about. When they savagely attack me and project on me and put me down and shred and push and show so much contempt and disgust -
They are inciting me to harm myself. They are inciting me to destroy myself.
Because they have not lifted a finger they have that distance and can say any action that happened was all my doing and they have nothing to do with it. Indeed, they can say they are victims of my craziness and achieve sympathetic attention from others that way.
Their only problem is that I could do a lot more to cooperate. It gives them fuel that I was depressed, that I have been in therapy, had various friendships that didn't work out, other disappointments. All of this is evidence of my faultiness. Also I believe in things that cannot be proven by science. Like mind, soul, eternity, etc. That makes me kooky - they are materialists and only believe in what can be measured.
They are not happy when good things happen for me. My sister in particular is envious and more, she acts like a great injustice has been allowed to happen. But then she also confides vulnerable things to me. I believe she considers me safe - as in a safe person, but also a safe target. It's toxic.
This is really a separate question.
Why is it that I feel like it is about my undesirable personhood, instead of their bad behavior? Is it because I have believed them?
They have seen time and again how much damage this causes, but they act like I should not be affected like that. That it is wrong for me to be damaged by this treatment. That they should be justified in the way they treat me, that it is right.
Hops wrote that under any circumstances, even if I am crazy, they should not belittle me (and I forget exactly her words), but that's not how it feels inside. It feels like they probably right to do it - like I have let them down by being - unacceptable or not - yes - by showing vulnerability - by which I mean by having a vulnerability. I feel that I must be impregnable - that they must see my walls as absolutely smooth and unclimbable. Because if there is a chink - then that is my fault and they will destroy. Sometimes in the past I have succeeded in a show of external power and confidence. But I always slipped up and was vulnerable again later.
Just rambling now.
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Iph,
Why is it that I feel like it is about my undesirable personhood, instead of their bad behavior? Is it because I have believed them?
You and I suffer from the same compulsion. But somewhere along the line, I have just had to stop myself in my steps and say NO MORE HURTING AND DESTROYING SELF!. I have studied the reasons why I do it. Discussed it for endless hours with my T. For me, it comes down to the fact that it doesn't work! It doesn't work to make them stop and it doesn't work to help make me less of a target. It just doesn't work. And so I move to find the things that do.
Simple thots from a simple brain :shock:!
PS. "Undesireable personhood"...hmmmm where have I heard that before? Oh yeah! In my own head! :lol: Not true for either of us. RIGHT??? xxoo
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Iphi,
Your post could have been written by me, I resonate with it so much. I think the only difference is that I USED to feel like that about my family, before NC.
Possibly the reason they want you to self-destruct is that they can't channel their feelings back onto themselves, so they give you the impression that they want you to self-destruct, and that they don't care if you do. But actually, they DON'T want you to do that, because if you did, they'd have to find another target. It's all very depressing, because at the heart of it, they have no heart, IMO. They just want *A* target, not necessarily you. Just someone to deflect their feelings onto. Obviously, that's incredibly painful for you to experience, as it seems so deliberate, but that's how N's work. They just want a response.
It always amazed me that my family didn't seem to want me to put on weight when I was an anorexic 70 pounds for 12 years. And they slagged me off when I started putting on weight (even a little bit). They'd wanted me to STAY where they wanted me. What I wanted was irrelevant, even if it had killed me.
It's so hard to undrstand. I'm sorry you're having to deal with all that stuff now.
Janet
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Poppy - no it doesn't work! It's like the Neville Chamberlain appeasement strategy. It doesn't work!
What we need is some fire breathing Winston Churchill strategy:
We shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender.
Winston Churchill
But why do they want it?? What does it do for them that can't be done some other way or not done at all?
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I think they are trying to meet their needs in the most bizzare/twisted ways. And what they don't see or understand is that they are not getting their needs met either. It is like any addiction. It does take the pain away....for a minute....it lies that everything is ok......and we believe it because we want to believe it.......and slowly it takes us down with chains. I think they lie to themselves in similar ways. The delude themselves into thinking this is the only way to ensure safety and love and being needed and staying on top. I am sorry for them. Because they will never taste the joy of health and the power of real self love and the warmth of real connection to others. As for you and I, lets go to the buffet and taste it all!! Know what I am sayin'? :) We can wave to them from the best seats in the house. Don't they say that is the best revenge.....living well! Who knows maybe one of them will see your example and follow!
Love.
pops
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I've read People of the Lie - several years ago. How crazy is it that I didn't see that my family is this way? Somehow I was covering for them, excusing them, even as I was reading this book that described the same kind of things that they do.
And I see it now, Janet and auth - I see how it is the same dynamic going on with Janet's FOO and mine and the way authentic is describing that they need me to be down so they can be up. Whereas even being on this site and reading your stories I didn't see how it is exactly the same. I didn't see the mechanics - the same engine in each place. It's like even if I read and nod, somehow I still have to do my own work anyway and type it anyway. I still have to figure it out individually even despite the rich learning experiences of this site and reading about NPD. :?
Thing is - I have never felt safe to just put it out there like this. I've always been covering for them and trying to negotiate different treatment - when this happens, when that happens, when the moon turns to cheese. So yeah I'm dealing with it now but nothing is going on right now specifically, except that things are going on inside me.
authentic you wrote
She said: "It's just that I am not like you. I don't do" and she waved her arms about "this."
My sister does this. Not in response to any question or anything - she makes sure I know how different she is from me and lays on the disgust. She only does this when we are alone. And it doesn't have to be a particularly emotion incident or crisis. She'll find a way.
I'm really, really heartsick to come to terms with how gone she is. And yet I don't believe it really - I don't believe she is 100% gone. But yet... I know she has a lot of rage at me due to the dysfunctional scenes in our family. Also, because I am safe and my dad is extremely unsafe, I believe she has directed at me everything that is not safe to express toward my dad.
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Another thought -
Janet - when you left them for your own well being and went NC - they treated it like you had attacked them (as was clear from that horrible letter from the NSis you transcribed). They can't understand that you would do something to protect yourself - that you have a right to do it. They see you protecting yourself as hurting them. They think you have no right to protect yourself and should allow them to rampage all over you. They cannot accept that you have any rights. Any rights of yours are an offense to them.
That's really very unreasonable. It's unstoppably exploitative.
That's what I was taught too. That I had no right to protect myself. That I had to feel empathy for them while they were attacking me, but not feel for myself. To emotionally support my dad even as he was raging at me, because only he mattered. To have a difference of opinion was an outrage to my dad and actually - it still is.
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Iphi,
That's exactly right. I didn't have the right to protect myself, as far as they were concerned.
But when I see it written down, as you've just done, it STILL hits me.
What a dreadful way for my own family to have behaved! How bizarre! Even after all this time, it knocks me over, sometimes.
But, I do know that it's so much better to be away from them (even though I still wake in the night, terrified by having had a dream with my Nsister in it - strangely, it's always my Nsister not my NMum).
Janet
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That's what I was taught too. That I had no right to protect myself. That I had to feel empathy for them while they were attacking me, but not feel for myself. To emotionally support my dad even as he was raging at me, because only he mattered. To have a difference of opinion was an outrage to my dad and actually - it still is.
Dear Iphi,
I think that you are breaking the denial.You think,"How could my own family( who should be a safe place) do this to me?You think that you must be exaggerating or not seeing it right. Inside, you still hope that you are, simply ,not seeing it right.
Denial breaks slowly so we don't lose our minds.
We went in to denial so we would not go insane. The human body and mind were not meant to be treated so horribly. We were not meant to hold all this pain inside us. So, we break somehow.
You are facing the truth
. You are not alone. It was never your fault. It was not b/.c you were not good enough. It was their lies and distortions. They would rather push you "under the water "than face the truth.
I realize that I was not allowed to protect myself either. It was always about HER(like with your F)
She had to feel good at all costs. THAT was my goal and mission in life, I had to die and lose myself if need be so SHE could feel good and thrive. That was the RULE.
The main rule was that she feels good about herself. Anything that takes away from that must be destroyed . If I make her feel badly about herself( by outshining her) then I have to be destroyed ,also.. So, I needed to be destroyed
Better yet, I had her in my head and destroyed myself. That is what I am seeing today. I did it all b/c she was in my head.I was talking about all the messages of self destruction that are in my head on the "Shocked "thread. I think that I am out of denial about her- -BUT I feel like I am a broken person.Now, I need to come out of denial about all these old tapes and messages that she programmed in to me. Iphi-- you are coming out of denial..You have a lot of love and support here.Keep writing-- especially when you don't want to.
Love Ami
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Reading the posts in this thread lead me to express my personal belief that there seem to be (at least) two broad categories of NPD abusers---the in-your-face, aggressive type and the less obvious, but equally insidious and manipulative sort. It's easy to see if someone is abusing you if they hit your or swear at you or tell you outright that you are a lower. But I think many NPDs work in much more subtle but manipulative ways.
In my case, for example, my NPD mom would never say directly to me, "your hairstyle is horrible." Instead, she will make a point of telling me that every woman she sees in long hair (I have long hair) looks absolutely terrible and has an ugly haircut. She'll also "suggest" over and over that she could talk to her hair stylist about "fitting me in" for an appointment to get my hair cut.
But I know other NPDs are far more aggressive and obviously abusive. In either case, the end result is that the recipient of that abuse is harmed and is left with total feelings of unworthiness and failure. However, even in the case of the obviously aggressive type of NPD, I think they rarely let this behavior be seen in front of strangers or others, so it is really difficult to get anyone to validate what you know about them or to acknowledge there is something wrong with me. This is just more invalidation heaped on more invalidation. As long as you do what they want, always agree with them and provide them with endless narcissistic supply, they can appear to be very nice, pleasant, etc. Everyone else would think they are great people.
That is why I think validation is so very important---from a therapist, other family members, or even posters on this board. Somebody is finally noticing that something is not right and that we are not being treated fairly.
I just wish the mental health community would catch up and take NPD seriously. If they did, I bet they would find that a lot of the typical depression, anxiety, and PTSD they see in their patients can really be attributed to growing up in an NPD household.
Just my humble opinion.
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That's what I was taught too. That I had no right to protect myself. That I had to feel empathy for them while they were attacking me, but not feel for myself. To emotionally support my dad even as he was raging at me, because only he mattered. To have a difference of opinion was an outrage to my dad and actually - it still is.
Iphi, Authentic, Poppy & Janet,
Yes, yes, yes. I am in the same boat. this realization makes me sick, I really physically feel ill about it.
For me, reading the Fawn Response (post by Certain Hope, bless her) has answered so many questions for me. I am both grateful and happy to know, to see the truth, but, seeing the truth also has made me feel sick and depressed. It is such a painful revelation.
We can't change the past, we can't change the damage done to us in the past, but we can, now that we are enlightened, act differently with those who scapegoat us, undermine us and, as Iphi said, incite us to destroy ourselves.
Yucch.
Love, peace and strength to us all,
sally
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Hey Ami & Sun,
You two must have posted when I posted.
Yes, Ami, I am feeling the shock which you write about in your Shock post. I think I have been in this Shock ever since I learned about NPD and that I was victimized by it.
Sun, me too with the hair! Except my mother would do both: She would hint and imply that my hair looks bad and then tell me to my face in a nasty, yelling tone "YOUR HAIR LOOKS TERRIBLE", while gesturing with her arms.
Ack. So many bad memories and so much damage done.
Love,
sally
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I have the hair thing,too. My mother would always say that I should have a "smart short "haircut. I liked long hair. She would smirk at it like i was trying to be too "feminine( said in a mocking tone with a smirk)
Ami
P.S. I think that the dizziness, Sally, is a sign of coming out of denial. I had it for 6 weeks(off and on)
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Glad to see I'm not the only one with the "short, smart" haircut thing. I always liked long hair, probably because all during my childhood my mother would refuse to allow me to have long hair. She insisted I keep a "pixie" cut all my childhood. It made me feel like a boy, "invisible" as a girl. I was teased about it and by the age of 12, I was molested by 3 boys who laughed at me. I would have to say much of my NPD mom's abuse would fall in the "neglect" category. Growing up, she never discussed the things most moms would discuss at some point: sex, boys, relationships, the facts of life, or the changes that occur during adolescence. In fact, I remember on the day I first got my period, I had bad cramps which would follow me throughout life. My mom, of course, had never discussed this "change" with me so I didn't know what it was it first. When she realized I had my period, her only comment was "Be very careful not to stain the couch."
So many memories of neglect, distinterest, disrespect. From a very early age, you're made to understand that nothing you want, feel, believe or need ever matters. No wonder I've never experienced love in my life.
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Dear Sun.
I had the neglectful type of mother ,too. I had to "laugh" at the period thing. When I got my period(age 9),my M had a horrified look on her face. She looked so bad that I said that I really did not have my period,I just cut my leg. Finally, when I couldn't deny it anymore,she told me that only "peasants " have their period so young.
Sun,you will find that you have entered a sorority of soul sisters with so many,similar stories. This was one of the most wonderful parts of being on the board-- not being alone with these crazy experiences Love Ami"
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Oh, ((((((Sun))))).
Have some love now.
Coming right at you.
Hops
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Sally, Sun, Ami,
Me too, about the hair!!
And I BET we've all got lovely hair really, and our mothers were dead jealous. I had wavy blonde hair when I was small - and was told I had 'deformed follicles', otherwise it would be nice and straight (like hers)!
But what has the cost been, to have been ridiculed about our 'crowning glory'?
Janet
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Deformed follicles, my ass!
I swear.
#$%^&*$%^&*%^&*%^&%^&^%#@#$()*!*
I remember giving my parents a big pic, the only print, someone took of me in college, best shot of my then-amazing mane ever. It was a big fall of hair. I was very happy with my long hair. When I next came home they had CUT off all my hair to fit just my face into a little round frame.
Errgghh. That was so symbolic. (Get that sexuality tamed, get the scissors!)
So now in my dotage I'm going to grow my flaming white hair down to my bodacious booster seat.
Hops
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For many years while I was in college, I had a "smart, stylish " haircut like Dorothy Hammil(if you remember her haircut). One day,it hit me that I had really nice thick, auburn hair. WHY do I have to have it in a short boy- type hair cut?
I let it grow. That moment was a pivotal moment when it just "hit" me,"WHY do I have to follow what she says?"
I did not make the connection to other areas of life ,though. It stopped with the hair. On everything else, I followed her tapes in my head. I left home to go to college and never went back( to live).
However, I have not had an independent thought or emotion since I was 14. I was already programmed as the N clone( as Vaknin says).
I have been a clone up until right now when I am questioning it- BLEH. What a life. If I did not believe in eternal life, I could not face how much I have ruined this one. Love Ami
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What is this? This is the heart of what I don't understand.
This is what my gut tells me that my family is about. When they savagely attack me and project on me and put me down and shred and push and show so much contempt and disgust -
They are inciting me to harm myself. They are inciting me to destroy myself.
Iphi,
The way I feel about this is... if we're willing to "undo ourselves", then they don't have to work so hard toward our demise, do they?
After all, that's what they trained us to do... to UN-do ourselves, to blend into obscurity in the presence of their dismal glow. And for what?
Surely not for love... more like for permission to be able to continue to take up space. There's nothing resembling love in the mix.
NPD, especially cerebral N, demands to be needed, desired, desperately sought after, and idealized as the ultimate guru.
Differences of perspective are not allowed and so the moment you sense one of these differences coming on, you begin to disintegrate... by sheer habit.
We flawed, mortal human beings are not allowed to even exist apart from the orbit of N, around whom all things slightly less wonderful do rotate.
Is it possible to un-exist? When you're raised by NPD it is... and that's what you're expressing here, I sense.
The only way to get "positive" notice in the eyes of N (especially cerebral N) is to loudly, repeatedly declare one's total, abject dependence on his/her "wisdom" and pledge eternal agreement with anything which spews out of her/his mouth, regardless of content.
It's clear that you will not bow the knee and receive the bile thus spewed, and therefore, you must be in the process of being destroyed... ??
....but wait, there you are... I see you!!... whole and breathing and moving and growing...
you didn't cease to exist!
You're not destroyed, Iphi.
They are... destroyed by their own illusions, depriving themselves of the one salve which could mend their rotten souls...
the genuine love of one flawed and frail child of God for another.
You wrote in a later post:
They see you protecting yourself as hurting them. They think you have no right to protect yourself and should allow them to rampage all over you.
They cannot accept that you have any rights. Any rights of yours are an offense to them.
Exactly. The penultimate envy... "Thou shalt disappear into me and cease to exist as anything other than my reflection, in order to prove thine love"
Narcissus.
Yuck.
The only way to please N is to utterly disappear as a unique individual with thoughts and feelings of your own.
NO contact is the only way, I believe, as I stuff another unopened envelope under the file cabinet.
With love,
Carolyn
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Carolyn,
I agree that NC is the only way to go, but can you tell me why you keep any mail sent to you by them, even if you don't open it? I find that I have to destroy it(burning is good), or the thought of it still existing eats away at me, and does almost as much damage as if I'd opend it.
Just curious as to how you manage it!
Janet
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Carolyn,
I agree that NC is the only way to go, but can you tell me why you keep any mail sent to you by them, even if you don't open it? I find that I have to destroy it(burning is good), or the thought of it still existing eats away at me, and does almost as much damage as if I'd opend it.
Just curious as to how you manage it!
Janet
Hi Janet,
To date, I have pretty much non-managed it.
Used to let the envelopes pile up until the guilt overwhelmed me... and then I'd rip through a large stack of them all at once. I do still feel some responsibility to distribute the content of these envelopes, because they're addressed to all of us here, although my kids don't pick up the letters and read them when I put them out on the "coffee table" (a snack tray in disguise... who has room for a coffeetable?)
Ugh, I dunno, Janet.
"Mother" still sends a one dollar bill for each of her two remaining grandchildren here, but my kids don't even pick those up from the tray.
I have to put these dollars into their bedrooms... where I'll often find them later, stuffed into a corner or under the bed. My husband suggested that I just ask the kids how they feel about these letters and dollars and such... but I don't trust myself quite yet to engage in that discussion. I have shared a bit with them about how I was raised... and how that's impacted me.
But I've never initiated a formal "no contact". And right now, I would feel bad about myself if I didn't first tell my parents something - - - but what? "You may as well stop writing because nobody is reading here" ??? And I still have alot of my old fear of conflict, as well.
On August 31, I sent them a letter introducing myself to them and telling them who I am... and who I'm not.
At this point, I don't know what sort of response would be more difficult to receive... one where they tried to address what I said to them? or one which just ignored the whole thing? ... but whatever their response is to be, that's what is in this envelope I've stuffed. On my 4th day non-smoking, I really don't feel up to dealing with it at all, and so - as I take one day at a time - today's choice is for "No Contact".
Carolyn
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Oh ((Iphi))
I learned enough about what's going in around me, with other people.... that has nothing to do with me.... that I no longer feel I have to figure everything about it out.
All I HAVE to do is figure out how to take care of myself and show my children how to do that for themselves.
The hardest part is the vertigo caused by looking around and taking stock of what I DO HAVE to work with in my life.
My family passes in my vision and I'd like to stop and take stock, but there's preciouse little to take stock of.
Watching them whiiiirrrrr by causes a bit of dizziness, but I have to stay focused on what's beyond.
It's not really their responsibility to nurture me and make me whole. That's still my job.
It was their responsibilty to NOT BE TOXIC, but hey...... that was beyond their power so I can't beat them up about it or keep banging my head on that wall.
I don't have quite the dysfunction that some here have..... a lot less in my FOO than most.
It's easy for me to say that you can build a better life for yourself and limit the contact with your family in order to be healthier.
When you've figured out enough of what you need to understand, I hope you do reach out and cultivate rich lasting bonds with people you make into honorary family members.
Two of my very best friends are women who are 80yo and 76yo. I created family to love me and nurture me, guide me and help me. People who care about the little things and the big things. That tell me their truth, no matter whether I want to hear it or not.
Then they step back and allow me to reach out to them as I need to, to keep my balance. We all need to tell our truths to other people and still be loved, warts and all.
We all have to maintain contact with people who we trust, people who have our best interest in mind.
If they aren't family members.... then we're obligated to find them elsewhere and that's just the way I feel about that now.
Create your own happiness and depend less on your family. They can't do any better ((Iphi))...
or they would.
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Dear Carolyn,
Oh, I see that if they're not addressed to you alone, then it is much harder to deal with (and if you've just started stopping smoking, then now is not the time to be thinking about this!).
It's interesting how your children are handling the money 'gifts' (i.e virtually ignoring them).
It's very hard to know what to do, though. The contents of letters are awful if you open them, and somehow awful if you don't.
Sometimes I've sent letters back, but only after I've opened them and got angry at the contents (I recently received copies of photos of my family from when I was 12, sent by my NMum's latest 'boyfriend', to 'remind me of happier times'.
Those went back, with a note elucidating exactly in what way they WEREN'T happier times - how would HE know? He didn't meet my NMum till two years ago! The photos were taken in 1974. I wish I could just ignore the letters, but my curiosity usually gets the better of me, and it does me no good at all.
Still, the burning of the letters that I end up keeping helps.
Janet
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I learned enough about what's going in around me, with other people.... that has nothing to do with me.... that I no longer feel I have to figure everything about it out.
Dear Iphi,
I just wanted to comment about the quote(above).
IMO-- we ,FIRST, have to look within AND outside(FOO) in order to FACE what happened. IMO, if we do not face everything, we will not heal deeply. We want to heal deeply,not superficially.
I think that many people try to fix the outside without first facing the inside.
I don't believe that this is 'real' healing.
I am just saying this b/c it is easy for a person in the first stages of healing to feel "pushed back". I don't mean to be contentious ,in any way ,to Lighter. I am just sharing what I believe are the crucial steps in healing Love Ami
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I learned enough about what's going in around me, with other people.... that has nothing to do with me.... that I no longer feel I have to figure everything about it out.
Dear Iphi,
I just wanted to comment about the quote(above).
IMO-- we ,FIRST, have to look within AND outside(FOO) in order to FACE what happened. IMO, if we do not face everything, we will not heal deeply. We want to heal deeply,not superficially. I think that many people try to fix the outside without first facing the inside.
I don't believe that this is 'real' healing.
I am just saying this b/c it is easy for a person in the first stages of healing to feel "pushed back". I don't mean to be contentious ,in any way ,to Lighter. I am just sharing what I believe are the crucial steps in healing Love Ami
Who said we don't have to identify/face problems and causes with reference to healing?
I certainly.... did not.
Understanding enough about what happened to us, is enough, IMO..... and is bound to be different for everyone.
If I had to 'figure out' everything about why the people who hurt me, did what they did.... I'd still be going round, compulsively, in circles.... without experiencing any healing at all, superficial or real.
You're certainly welcome to share what you believe the crucial steps of real healing to be but.....
I'd appreciate it if you didn't translate my posts in the future.
You suck at it; )
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Lighter,
On 2nd September, on the 'RE: Lighter' thread, you wrote:
"I'll be posting support only, for a while: )"
Didn't seem to last long, did it?
Janet
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I learned enough about what's going in around me, with other people.... that has nothing to do with me.... that I no longer feel I have to figure everything about it out.
Dear Iphi,
I just wanted to comment about the quote(above).
IMO-- we ,FIRST, have to look within AND outside(FOO) in order to FACE what happened. IMO, if we do not face everything, we will not heal deeply. We want to heal deeply,not superficially.
I think that many people try to fix the outside without first facing the inside.
I don't believe that this is 'real' healing.
I am just saying this b/c it is easy for a person in the first stages of healing to feel "pushed back". I don't mean to be contentious ,in any way ,to Lighter. I am just sharing what I believe are the crucial steps in healing Love Ami
I used to think I had to examine everything...the FOO....the pain....the roots. I learned a lot in the process but I used up a lot of years in this pursuit as well. The more I looked, the more I found to sift through! It felt much like being lost in a maze, and I would imagine the exit around the next bend! ...only to find myself stuck in another blind corner or hairpin turn. My method made my pain a giant tar baby. I learned that there are things I just CAN'T know. I also learned that my perceptions of events were not always right and that an absolute complete understanding of my "stuff" may never come. I also learned that I couldn't heal myself completely by myself. For me, I had to hand the stuff I couldn't do to God and ask Him what part was His and which part was mine. I have to walk in the dark and hold His hand and let go of my need to "know". This letting Go and letting God was the most healing step I have ever taken. My life and my healing are more manageable. I don't tackle all of it anymore. I am more patient with myself and the process. I smile more. Line upon line, precept upon precept. If it bubbles up, I know I need to deal with it in some way. But I control the way I deal with it now. I don't use a magnifying glass. I don't dissect every detail. I listen to the pain. I listen to my inner voice. I ask God for guidance and I listen to that too and take action that seems right. And then I try to let it go of it even if I don't understand the depths and the breadths. It is a balancing act. And difficult at times to maintain the balance. But the healing is coming! That thing I was so desperate for....that thing I kept chasing, hunting, scouring for, has just kind of landed on my shoulder like a butterfly.
This is my process. Something that is working for me. Not for everyone. Just my two cents.
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That's my experience as well, Poppy.
Also.....
It's hope that kills us.
Simply accepting that we'll never get the love we surely deserved, allows us to turn to more positive things?
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I learned enough about what's going in around me, with other people.... that has nothing to do with me.... that I no longer feel I have to figure everything about it out[/sub].
I used to think I had to examine everything...the FOO....the pain....the roots. I learned a lot in the process but I used up a lot of years in this pursuit as well. The more I looked, the more I found to sift through! It felt much like being lost in a maze, and I would imagine the exit around the next bend! ...only to find myself stuck in another blind corner or hairpin turn. My method made my pain a giant tar baby. I learned that there are things I just CAN'T know. I also learned that my perceptions of events were not always right and that an absolute complete understanding of my "stuff" may never come. I also learned that I couldn't heal myself completely by myself. For me, I had to hand the stuff I couldn't do to God and ask Him what part was His and which part was mine. I have to walk in the dark and hold His hand and let go of my need to "know". This letting Go and letting God was the most healing step I have ever taken. My life and my healing are more manageable. I don't tackle all of it anymore. I am more patient with myself and the process. I smile more. Line upon line, precept upon precept. If it bubbles up, I know I need to deal with it in some way. But I control the way I deal with it now. I don't use a magnifying glass. I don't dissect every detail. I listen to the pain. I listen to my inner voice. I ask God for guidance and I listen to that too and take action that seems right. And then I try to let it go of it even if I don't understand the depths and the breadths. It is a balancing act. And difficult at times to maintain the balance. But the healing is coming! That thing I was so desperate for....that thing I kept chasing, hunting, scouring for, has just kind of landed on my shoulder like a butterfly.
This is my process. Something that is working for me. Not for everyone. Just my two cents.
This is really so lovely to me, Poppy... thank you for the imagery. Feels like it will remain with me always... both the imagery and the butterfly, actually.
In my opinion, and from my experience, the notion that everything can be figured out, pinned down, sewn up, boxed, labeled, and 100% actualized = bunk.
Life is what happens while all that is frittering away the hours and life is God's gift to be lived, not frittered.
Just my penny's worth on this.
Carolyn.
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I completely agree with the objective of living your best life and not waiting for all the answers.
But you have to think about the context. Sometimes you just need to learn something. For example, for years I have been hobbled - downright stopped in my tracks - by crippling anxiety that has stopped me from going after the life I want to live.
So then I just learned that what I have experienced time and again, is PTSD. This is a sea change for me. It allows me to understand my inability to drive on, to go for it. It helps me to understand why I have not been able to establish positive relationships with mentors or people I admire and like.
I tried to live my best life without doing the work. I couldn't. I tried for almost 2 decades. Time and again - the same issue absolutely killed me. And why? I couldn't figure it out. I felt faulty, weak, beyond frustrated. It has completely impacted my professional life AND my personal life. And I just keep hanging up on the same problems - the same huge fears. And yet I couldn't figure out why it was so strong that it could stop me dead in my tracks.
So when I find out it is PTSD, suddenly the door opens and I can see myself in a more compassionate light. Now I know why kicking it into 4-wheel drive and stomping on the accelerator leads me to spin my wheels again and again and become sicker and sicker with anxiety. Now I see where it comes from. It comes from living with my attackers.
And hey - maybe nobody has the answers and we must proceed anyway, but for me personally - I never had a community to put such a question to before now. People on here have such experience and deep insight. It isn't math. There isn't The Answer out there. But there's a lot of wisdom and insight. And so I think it is worth talking about as much as any other topic.
Just my .02 :D
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Lighter,
You suck at it; )
Are you serious or are you joking?
I can't tell because of the ; )
Even if it is a joke, based on what I have learned about Ns, is that jokes which have a hidden (or obvious) dig are Nish & destructive.
I don't want to get off the topic here, but I feel stunned. Let's preserve out safety here. No jokes at someone else's expense. Disagreements are fine, but no digs.
Sally
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Lighter,
I don't respond to nastiness. I am here to heal and help other's heal in as gracious a manner as I can.
That type of behavior , on your part , is no refection on me Ami
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I want to go back to the original topic of "Inciting you to destroy yourself". I am having parts of myself "click" back in like a puzzle.
i was incited to destroy myself and I know why,now. I understand People of the Lie--in the heart.
I only got it ,in the head.before.
I see that I have always been perceptive ( we all are if we let ourselves). I could SEE the truth in my family. I could not be ALLOWED to even see it--let alone say it. Now, I know why I started getting more and more nearsighted. Also, I had recurrent dreams of "not being able to see".
I can finally, finally see how people will do ANYTHING to keep their lies. It is a huge shock to me. It really, really is.
I thought that there was something wrong with me. I thought that I was "too sensitive" or "too.... something". What I was -- was simply seeing the obvious truth . I had to have my whole self snuffed out. It was too dangerous to the family system.
Now-- what about other life situations? People will destroy you if you get in the way of their denial. It is a "life or death" fight. I really truly am shocked.
Now, I see that I was always O.K. My great crime was being perceptive and simply seeing what was right in front of my eyes. For that terrible crime, I needed to "punish" myself. I did the terrible crime of seeing the lies and dysfunction.
So, the end of the story is that I CAN see and I can SAY what I see. 'What does it profit a man to gain the "whole world(people s approval) and lose his very soul(truth).
Thank you to everyone who helped me to see this. Love Ami
P.S. I SEE now how people get us" back "in to our FOO situations. I see HOW the foo situations replay. We have to be "blind". We have to suspend the truth that we are seeing.Otherwise, we would run from "bad" situations and people. We are made to be "blind" in our FOO. THAT is how they destroy us. Then we get in to a work or relationship situation and we are still blind. The other person( if they are sick) 'wants" us to be blind so they can "replay" our FOO on us again.This is what Besee is saying, I think, about work.
The antidote to the poison is the truth. We have to" un- blind" ourselves. Then we have to "Say the truth."This is where setting boundaries and enforcement of boundaries comes in. Once we SEE it, We must then stand up for our truth with boundaries.
.
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Once we SEE it, We must then stand up for our truth with boundaries.
.
I think asking you to stop launching off my posts with assumptions......is speaking my truth and setting a boundary.
At the very least, share your point but do it by asking for clarification.
I'm sure that if I followed you around and critiqued your posts with wrong assumptions..... it would result in a firestorm, lol.
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Lighter,
You suck at it; )
Are you serious or are you joking?
I can't tell because of the ; )
Sally
That's a quote from PATCH ADAMS.
It was very funny and I assure you, I meant it with the same humor Robin Williams delievered it, in the movie.
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I'm glad you shared your thoughts Ami. I think you are so right. Your ability to perceive things clearly was the ultimate threat.
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Dear Iphi,
This is the road to get us back to good mental health.. That is what I have been searching for my whole time on the board. I used to have good mental health. I know what it feels like to love yourself. I know what it feels like to honor yourself.
ONCE I accepted lies- all my "good mental health" went down the tubes. I started hating myself and thinking that I deserved to be "punished".
My mind and body were simply telling me to "face the truth" and then I would be whole again. However, I was too brainwashed to do it.I HAD to be brainwashed or my family would destroy me.
Now, I see that the "yellow brick road" back to wholeness is simply facing the truth. That is the road to loving and honoring ourselves. WHY are people so afraid of the truth?B/C it is very,very very powerful.It is like a very powerful medicine. It can transform metal in to gold-- alchemy. It can transform broken people to "whole"people Love Ami
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But the truth means we have to change and that some things are going to have to be let go of. It means change and some changes are really, really, really hard.
I remember when I decided to not see the truth about my dad. I was 5 - there was a specific incident - very small, but that was when. It wasn't really a choice - it was not a choice I was able to really make. I couldn't tolerate the truth. ("Truth? You can't handle the truth!") I was not able to let go of my dad at the age of 5. Or for the next 30 years.
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Dear Iphi,
I remember the exact moment that I jettisoned myself away. I threw myself overboard . I probably did it many times before in smaller ways. I started having phobias very,very young.i was afraid to go to sleep and many others. That shows me that I was trying not to look at my M.
However, at 14, I had a moment when I simply gave myself up to their lies. I remember the moment clearly. After that I was "numb" all the time. Everything was grey. I went on with life ,school etc but I was under a glass jar( a "bell jar" as Plath says).
i was simply not there. This is what I mean by not 'being real".
Now, I have the strength to face the lies and distortions.
Iphi-- if you have dizziness, stomach aches,sobbing etc--it is just part of denial leaving you. You have many many symptoms FROM BEING in denial( depression, lack of joy, self doubt , lack of trust in self etc). They have to "dissolve" as denial breaks. I had someone to call who kept encouraging me. The board really helped. I have a few friends who I PM . They kept encouraging me that it was all 'part" of coming out of denial. It was scary and I needed some people to help me when I was really afraid.You are welcome to PM me,of you want.
Iphi-- if we stay in denial, we will have a compromised life. There is no other choice(IMO) than to come out. I am feeling much,much better. Love Ami
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It seems to me that coming out of denial means that I have to give up my dad, give up on my dad, in every way. It seems to me I have been trying to get him for years to stop making me choose between him or me (that is making me choose him even to tolerate mistreatment). Having my dad in my life means going against myself and I did not create that situation.
It was a choice I was not able to make in the past, but sheesh - I'm 37. I'm a parent. I guess I have to choose me.
Yeah my stomach hurts.
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Dear Iphi,
You said the answer simply and elegantly(IMO). It is all there in your post. The N person is a walking ,living "lie".. They personify the word"lie".When we interact with them, they DEMAND(overtly or covertly)that we share in the lie. They must lie in order to keep their masks on. It is life or death to them. We are a small ant who must be destroyed if their lies are threatened.
They are wedded to their lies..This is what I learned after two months of dizziness, stomach aches, and yeast infections.
We are having the "shock" of someone dying-- WHILE they are alive.We are seeing that they are not a person in the sense that they share human emotions with us. They "look" like a person ,but they are hollow.
So, we have to accept that someone died while they are still alive. That has been what I have seen after my ordeal.
Iphi-- I never fainted although I thought that I would. I had a paper bag to blow in to when I got dizzy. My stomach is better. In fact,I gained weight and am a size 8(which I wanted).I feel much better now.
All these symptoms are just our bodies way of coming out of denial Love Ami
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Why is it that I feel like it is about my undesirable personhood, instead of their bad behavior? Is it because I have believed them?
I'm posting late in this thread, just because it doesn't seem like I have time to keep up with all of the posts and everything else going on in my life right now. :) But I clipped the above quote because I have spent months talking about it with my T, with my friends, with my brother, and anyone else who is willing to listen. I actually went to an assertive communication seminar this morning, and one of the things the awesome speaker mentioned was that to earn respect and control of our situations, we have to first respect and like ourselves. He said the first thing we need to do in the morning is look in the mirror and say, "I am good." It was a very profound thing for me, because my T has been trying to get me to look at things more postively for months.
It seems to me that all of our N experiences have a common theme: we lose ourselves in the miasma of the N relationship. For those of us with N parents, I don't really think we were ever allowed to have a sense of self. And even if we had that sense of self, we were never allowed to express it. My Nmom was the type that squashed any display of self expression:
"You aren't wearing that are you? You look like a (fill in blank)." I have heard bum, frumpy, boy, tramp, boho, etc. My Nmom even told me the other day that my son looked like a boho because he had on a baggy t-shirt and shorts with a pair of crocs.
"You don't want to go into that field. You'll never succeed."
"Why do you want to do that? That's a man's job." I currently work in a male dominated field, so she considers it "men's work."
"You need to do something with your hair." or "I don't like your hair that way, you should grow it out."
Self expression and love of self was bad with my nmom. I wasn't allowed to like the person I could be, because there was always something wrong with that person. I was selfish. I was cold. I had no passion. I didn't care about anyone but myself. My grades weren't good enough, even though I was at the top of my class, but I wasn't the best. I wasn't ambitious enough. I didn't have goals. Etc. These are things I grew up hearing, and after hearing them so much and for so long, it's very hard to break away from that mold without some sort of motivation. N's turn the focus of their bad behavior on us, and present us with very clear terms why we are causing it. I took my son on vacation and my Nmom told me she would be dead when I got back. Not because we were going on vacation, but because she perceived it as me taking my son away from her. Therefore it was my fault, and I spent the first three hours of a ten hour drive, crying.
N's have this manipulative behavior that makes us doubt ourselves, and if we grew up with an N parent, we've heard that we aren't worth anything all of our lives. The only way to break out of that is to learn to like ourselves as ourselves, for who we are, imperfections and all. I won't say I'm there yet, and some days I really don't succeed, but I"m getting better. I read, I'm not sure which book, that we can't give love until we love ourselves. I think this is very true. I feel more connected with my child now that I'm away from the N nonsense, even if we are in separate rooms, doing different things. I feel good when we have a day with no blow ups or misunderstandings, and there are more of those now than not. I had gotten to a place before I got away where I didn't want to spend time with anyone, not even my son, because I just wanted time for me. Somehow "me" was getting lost, and everyone was demanding things from me. I finally had to stop and say, "Enough. I matter too."
I do not like to have contact with my family, my parents in particular. IN the future, I'd like to decrease contact to as little as possible. Contact with them brings those old feelings of worthlessness and defeatism back, and I am starting to really like the new me.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that we are tricked into believing their bad behavior is our fault, and the way to escape that is to realize it is a trick, to look at them and realize we aren't what the N is telling us. We aren't bad, selfish, cold, unpassionate, etc. We have to learn to have a sense of self and respect for our persons.
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(((((hugs Iphi))))))
My mom was making me make that choice too, and I finally had to choose me. I was dying inside, and I feel so much more alive now, even though things are hard. We can't be responsible for other people's feelings, but we can empathize with them.
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Tayana
THAT WAS BRILLIANT------WOW
I am so happy and inspired to hear you talking about loving and respecting yourself. That is "where it's at".You are right. They de-nuded us of ourselves like you would de-nude a forest of trees. They left us barren-- self less.
You are getting your self back. You sound SO good. I am so happy--truly,truly happy to hear your strength. Love Ami
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I just wanted to add to Tayana's and the other posts.I think that AFTER we see and face the truth--then we face the task of loving ourselves.
I am looking very candidly at myself. I have become a shell of what I could be and even used to be.
My greatest desire and goal is to have good mental health. I have traversed the first step,in many ways--- fearless honesty. Now, I see the second step emerging over the horizon-- liking myself,loving myself ,valuing myself, being kind to myself, nurturing myself, being gentle with myself.
It has been so long that I have treated myself well.
I need a whole new tool box. I need to throw away all the tools that I needed to survive with my M. I carried them all with me when I moved away from her. She might as well have been with me. I treated myself the same way that she treated me.
I see the reason that I thought that I was a bad person. I saw what I should not have seen.( the truth) I perceived what I should not have perceived . I saw the Emperor and saw that he was naked. I had to punish myself for that.I had to twist ,turn and distort UNTIL the emperor had clothes on. In fact the emperor(my M) was dressed the best of them all. Now, I could fit in. However, what I gave up was my ability to perceive life with my own eyes Ami
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Authentic, Ami . . .
I am trying really hard. I work on it a little everyday, and everyday I have to forgive myself when my living room is a mess and shut off that voice that's berating me because I went to bed to do something creative. It's not as easy as it sounds. It's the hardest thing I've ever done.
Tayana
THAT WAS BRILLIANT------WOW
I am so happy and inspired to hear you talking about loving and respecting yourself. That is "where it's at".You are right. They de-nuded us of ourselves like you would de-nude a forest of trees. They left us barren-- self less.
You are getting your self back. You sound SO good. I am so happy--truly,truly happy to hear your strength.
I feel pretty good, although having to have anything to do with my parents turns me inside out. I can hardly stand that in fact. It's little steps. I can't worry about the big pictures, I have to work at it day by day.
I see the reason that I thought that I was a bad person. I saw what I should not have seen.( the truth) I perceived what I should not have perceived . I saw the Emperor and saw that he was naked. I had to punish myself for that.I had to twist ,turn and distort UNTIL the emperor had clothes on. In fact the emperor(my M) was dressed the best of them all. Now, I could fit in. However, what I gave up was my ability to perceive life with my own eyes
We punish ourselves too much. We allow other people to see our lives for us, and we let our selves get lost in that. I'm glad to hear that you are working on this Ami, that's what you need, to be able to perceive life on your terms and choose what is best for you. We shouldn't have to be responsible for our N's.
I have punished myself so much, and I'm tired of being miserable. I'd like to see what being happy is for a chance, although I'd probably feel happier if I hadn't caught a cold.
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I am in another state of shock .there are many things that surprise me about life. I see the basic premise of this thread-- that our N's would destroy whatever would expose the lies. We as little kids, could see the lies. We had to be twisted and distorted until we could not see the lies anymore.
Now, I am on to the next step--- ALL the lies that are within me-- driving my life.Ii "work" so hard to face the truth b/c I know that under all these lies is a "neat" person.
It does not matter where I go, what I look like, what education I have, what clothes,hair,make-up I have-- as long as I am lying to myself about myself--I will be miserable.
Now, comes the time to break down the denial inside me.
The most important thing that I have is my relationship with God. I got this b/c my M drove me to pure,unadulterated desperation.I could die now and be with Him. I have found the most important thing in life(IMO). So, I was"birthed" in to this relationship by PAIN.
Now I am a 'new born". I have to relearn most everything. 90% of my thinking is N tinged. I had to lose myself to survive. I have to build up myself like a baby would learn life's lessons.
Ami
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Wow. Tayana I'm glad you got to assertiveness training.
I made it to Vespers last night and we did a guided group meditation (some reading then long shared silence). The words were:
May I know that I am good.
May I know that I am loved.
May I know that I am held in a larger hope.
I started off with a kind of "yeah-yeah" in my mind because my back hurt and I'm a little cranky now that the season is changing. Kept obediently saying it to myself though, and after a while a few repetitions sounded real, heartfelt. It was comforting.
Tay, your saying "I am good" into the mirror every morning is a straightforward way of entering the same info into the brain. I like it. I think I need about 6 versions, varied throughout the day.
Such brave work. Everybody.
Hops
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It seems to me that coming out of denial means that I have to give up my dad, give up on my dad, in every way. It seems to me I have been trying to get him for years to stop making me choose between him or me (that is making me choose him even to tolerate mistreatment). Having my dad in my life means going against myself and I did not create that situation.
It was a choice I was not able to make in the past, but sheesh - I'm 37. I'm a parent. I guess I have to choose me.
Yeah my stomach hurts.
Dear Iphi,
I feel free to stop taking the initiative with my parents. Of course, I haven't taken much initiative in the past few years, with such physical distance between us, but there have been a few occasions when I have actually instigated some contact or other. For me, coming out of denial just means that I no longer have to do that - and when I don't do that, I no longer have to feel bad/guilty/ashamed about it.
If that is "giving up" on them, then I think it's a positive sort of giving up...? Feels like it, anyway.
Still winging it here... still haven't opened their last envelope because I'm in self-nurturing mode and really don't want that to shift gears into self-pitying mode at this moment. I need to remain in neutral for at least a few more days and get one full week of non-smoking under my foot.
It's a small thing, but it's my boundary, set by me, for my own good.
Do you think that these small things are sufficient? Instead of making it one huge fortress... just appropriate little fences, one at a time, as needed?
I hope so... and I hope you're feeling better.
With love,
Carolyn
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Thanks for asking CH/Carolyn. I feel okay. It's so clear to me that I held on because I believed I need him as my parent, and he never did that role except for certain self-serving parts he liked such as demanding chores and lecturing on topics of his choice. He claimed credit for it being a great parent, but... no.
So basically at this point well into adulthood, it's only an artifact of the past that I have to give up. Since the big blowout we had 2 years ago, I barely call him and stopped trying - just stopped trying.
The thing that bothers me is the parts of my own life as an adult that are not working. That's the larger context. It's the anxiety, the lack of confidence, this consistent belief that I will be rejected if I try things, that I can't do what I want to do because it will fail. This fear of going for it. But on the other side - a big desire to go for it. I live with a lot of internal tension that way.
Like I have said elsewhere, if it wasn't for the current life issues - that have also been with me for over a decade - then I would probably let sleeping dogs lie. The frustration drives me to it. It was when I quit smoking that I started to ask what the smoking was about - self calming, numbing out distressful emotions and anxiety, having a visible flaw to divert attackers from other more hurtfully personal flaws. I realized the smoking covered my anxieties - and that I would have to address the anxieties directly. The smoking would no longer be an excuse not to socialize or pursue goals. I had to get to the fear.
And that is what led me to NPD and this board and discovering my PTSD this topic about the roots of my PTSD. So it's okay. It's good. I think understanding will really help me make progress on recognizing the introject, the negative scripts, and when I am doing depressive thinking. I'm really not at all who I thought I was and that is a good thing.
CH, when I quit I was soooo happy to be getting the cold shoulder from my dad and knowing for the first time in my life that I was overjoyed to ignore him right back (instead of anxiously trying to make 'amends' for my 'crimes'). Personally I would not endanger my quit by opening any upsetting envelopes! I only spoke to him twice the first year I quit. I would have been happy to go on that way but eventually I felt it necessary to tell him I was pregnant. :lol:
tayana - I have read some of your topics in the past when I was not yet posting on the board and I have to tell you - you are so brave and you have had a lot to overcome in your mother - wow she is such a negative force. I am so happy for you and your son that you broke out of her gravitational pull and are in your own place, despite all her fearmongering and manipulation and scheming stuff. Thank you for sharing your hard won wisdom here - your posts are awesome! Your resolve inspires me!
Take care everybody.
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I can understand why it hurt, Authentic.
I am sorry it was painful to hear.
Hops
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I was angry, Authentic.
I was wrenched by your story and have compassion for you.
Hops
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I feel a confusion sometimes between saying "I'm sorry" and "taking it back."
KWIM?
I do not want to retract what I had posted. I did mean it.
I also recognize that it would be painful to read if it were about me.
I am sorry that my words caused you pain.
But I was speaking the truth. I was describing what it felt like to me.
Aha. That would be..."my truth." Not "the" truth. Hmm.
That's where my error was. My feeling it personally meant that
I couldn't be effective at raising awareness or furthering peace.
Hops
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I'm not willing to continue this dialogue, Authentic.
I can't see it as you do, can't follow your analysis.
I need to withdraw from this one.
Peace to you,
Hops
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Ummmm....
Did Iphi's thread just get jacked[/i :shock:
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i guess that the board is like life. When I read Hops calling authentic 'malignant",loose canon etc, it hit me at the time as "off". Izzy has said very mean things to me,but no one called her any of these names. I don't care .It means nothing to me what she calls me .
The issue is that there are certain"dresses' that certain girls wear that make them part of the acceptable "group'. The girl that wears a different dress( voice) is free game to pig pile on. WHY? I think that it is human nature to scapegoat.
In Social Psychology, there is often an us vs. them mentality. The 'them' has to be marginalized as "different", .Then, the "us "can vent on them. The "us" can do exactly the SAME thing(Izzy or Lighter to me) and no one does anything.
Lighter has treated me shamefully-- did any of the 'us" group respond? No, Lighter wears the acceptable 'dress". She does not talk too loud, dress too wild or act too big.If she does any of these things, she does them within 'acceptable limits " Authentic has a strong, "big" true voice. She touches the truth a little too close. Her voice is a little too "close to the pain".Her voice has a different "accent" than what the group consensus allows
If you don't like her voice--just ignore her.
We have all been abused by N's. Now we come to a generous site by Dr.G and abuse someone who is a little '"strong" in how they present themselves . .
Izzy and Lighter have been very rude to me. I don't care. It has no effect on me. . The point is that they wear the "appropriate dress" to school. Authentic might dress in hot pink. They dress in "acceptable navy blue"
Think about what I am saying without responding with a 'group think". This is social psychology here. This is a version of the Milgrim experiment --in that--- How many people will stand ALONE and for the truth.. 6 out of 10 in the Milgrim experiment SHOCKED the man to death. Why? they could not stand alone.
Authentic had a life that FEW here had. She was molested as a very young girl.Then, everyone lied to her and made her 'bad" b/c she was molested. Would anyone here want to trade with what she had to deal with?She has been betrayed by her whole family for telling the truth. Shouldn't she have a safe place here? Who wants to throw the first stone at her?
She has a strong voice b/c she is trying to face the truth about her life and heal. Leave her alone if you don't like her.
Very bad dynamics of Social Psychology are playing here. Just think about it
Love Ami
Hops---- This is Kitty Genovese
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Thanks for asking CH/Carolyn. I feel okay. It's so clear to me that I held on because I believed I need him as my parent, and he never did that role except for certain self-serving parts he liked such as demanding chores and lecturing on topics of his choice. He claimed credit for it being a great parent, but... no.
So basically at this point well into adulthood, it's only an artifact of the past that I have to give up. Since the big blowout we had 2 years ago, I barely call him and stopped trying - just stopped trying.
The thing that bothers me is the parts of my own life as an adult that are not working. That's the larger context. It's the anxiety, the lack of confidence, this consistent belief that I will be rejected if I try things, that I can't do what I want to do because it will fail. This fear of going for it. But on the other side - a big desire to go for it. I live with a lot of internal tension that way.
Like I have said elsewhere, if it wasn't for the current life issues - that have also been with me for over a decade - then I would probably let sleeping dogs lie. The frustration drives me to it. It was when I quit smoking that I started to ask what the smoking was about - self calming, numbing out distressful emotions and anxiety, having a visible flaw to divert attackers from other more hurtfully personal flaws. I realized the smoking covered my anxieties - and that I would have to address the anxieties directly. The smoking would no longer be an excuse not to socialize or pursue goals. I had to get to the fear.
And that is what led me to NPD and this board and discovering my PTSD this topic about the roots of my PTSD. So it's okay. It's good. I think understanding will really help me make progress on recognizing the introject, the negative scripts, and when I am doing depressive thinking. I'm really not at all who I thought I was and that is a good thing.
CH, when I quit I was soooo happy to be getting the cold shoulder from my dad and knowing for the first time in my life that I was overjoyed to ignore him right back (instead of anxiously trying to make 'amends' for my 'crimes'). Personally I would not endanger my quit by opening any upsetting envelopes! I only spoke to him twice the first year I quit. I would have been happy to go on that way but eventually I felt it necessary to tell him I was pregnant. :lol:
tayana - I have read some of your topics in the past when I was not yet posting on the board and I have to tell you - you are so brave and you have had a lot to overcome in your mother - wow she is such a negative force. I am so happy for you and your son that you broke out of her gravitational pull and are in your own place, despite all her fearmongering and manipulation and scheming stuff. Thank you for sharing your hard won wisdom here - your posts are awesome! Your resolve inspires me!
Take care everybody.
Hi Iphi. I'm glad you're feeling okay. Me, too... for the most part.
Reading you helps me to clarify what's going on in my own head, you know?
Thank you for that.
I guess it was the same for me... believing that I need my parents to be... the strong ones. Actually, I think I needed to believe that they are "good people"... maybe even super-human people... above average? Well into their advanced years, they've had an energy for the foo-foo-phony-stuff that I could never match. Of course, that sort of stuff is their sustenance, so they draw energy from it... and it's all just the opposite of what I ever thought it was. It's absolutely empty.. devoid of substance.. just like the empty shell they left of me when I stopped reflecting them to their satisfaction.
It really is an artifact of the past. Thank you for that, too, Iphi.
The battle really is internal, isn't it? Fighting with and for our own minds... sometimes I think that's a dual meaning for those principalities and powers in "high places"... the high place of the thoughts, where an entire war can be fought without a move being made. In the past, I sidestepped alot of those battles via impulsivity. Now, much more actively engaged in deliberate decision making. That helps.
The fear of failure is a biggie, but I am really coming to see how it's based on this lie that we only get one chance... or that one failure will negate an entire history of successes... whew - so many things are not at all about pass vs. fail. Gotta shake off that mindset.
(((((((((Iphi))))))))) In my opinion, you are well on the road to surmounting the heap of old stuff and exiting the boneyard in fine form. Thanks for all you've shared here... I always come away from your posts feeling more grounded and settled... and calm.
With love,
Carolyn
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i guess that the board is like life. When I read Hops calling authentic 'malignant",loose canon etc, it hit me at the time as "off". Izzy has said very mean things to me,but no one called her any of these names. I don't care .It means nothing to me what she calls me .
If you didn't care you wouldn't be posting about it on Iphi's thread :shock:
I haven't seen Izzy refer to you, much less post in your direction lately.... and the last posts I read were very kind.
Maybe I missed something?
If you insist on living in the past.... then live there but I'm a bit bizzy so I won't be doing it with you.
There are posters here who are very comfortable posting with you.... I'm glad.
I don't want you to feel unsupported.
I also don't want you to remain mired.... which is why I stopped posting with you after I said everything I needed you to hear.
Posting to you, in the manner you require, would make me feel like I'm helping you remain mired.
I don't like how that feels and I enjoy posting with those, like changing and tayana, who are healing in a manner I can identify with and support.
I don't even want to debate the 'deep healing' vs. 'shallow healing' issue.
I would be very unhappy to see you lable anyone's healing experiences inadequate or beneath what you consider to be true healing.
I got news for ya.... it's two steps forward and one step back... and so it goes.
It won't ever be perfect.
If your holding out for that final revelation.....
that final shock that really allows you to BE you again....
::whispering::
it's not coming.
Healing comes in waves and rolls you about.... skinning you up and holding you under...... and when you least expect it.... you pop up and find you can breath again.
Then the waves start again.
Intellectualizing the waves to death is intellectualizing... not healing, IMO.
We learn and we grow and we do.... well..... by DOING.
And since Iphi's thread is throughouly jacked now... and you've started this wonderful forum of critiquing others.....
It's also very frustrating that you don't take your own advice.
You have plenty and you give it often and it's very good.
My interpretation, of course, but I'm entitled to that.... at least as I see it.
Izzy and Hops and everyone else on this board, including you, is entitled as well?
You could make excuses for everyone here for any and every post they make.
Why excuse one....
and not another?
I've also set a boundary, don't attribute meaning to my posts, I did not intend.
Please ask for clarification if you need to, that's fine.
I believe that's a fair request and I've spoken my truth.
Everyone here has a right to set and enforce boundaries, speak their truth and feel supported.
Even those who can't support your particular journey.
::sigh::
Sorry Iphi.
::handing thread back::
-
(((((((((Iphi))))))))) In my opinion, you are well on the road to surmounting the heap of old stuff and exiting the boneyard in fine form. Thanks for all you've shared here... I always come away from your posts feeling more grounded and settled... and calm.
With love,
Carolyn
[/quote]
I've said it before and I'll keep saying it....
bc I think it's one part of the healing equation....
giving up hope, that our loved ones (whoever let us down or abused us) will ever be nice, or loving or kind or protective or not eat us for lunch is very important, IMO.
I know I haven't provided any context here but I'm having a little trouble concentrating :shock:
-
I've said it before and I'll keep saying it....
bc I think it's one part of the healing equation....
giving up hope, that our loved ones (whoever let us down or abused us) will ever be nice, or loving or kind or protective or not eat us for lunch is very important, IMO.
I know I haven't provided any context here but I'm having a little trouble concentrating :shock:
I prefer to think of it as giving up expectations
Don't mess wid Hope :shock:
:)
-
I've said it before and I'll keep saying it....
bc I think it's one part of the healing equation....
giving up hope, that our loved ones (whoever let us down or abused us) will ever be nice, or loving or kind or protective or not eat us for lunch is very important, IMO.
I know I haven't provided any context here but I'm having a little trouble concentrating :shock:
I prefer to think of it as giving up expectations
Don't mess wid Hope :shock:
:)
Heh...... I've been waiting for that violent uprising, lol; )
-
I've said it before and I'll keep saying it....
bc I think it's one part of the healing equation....
giving up hope, that our loved ones (whoever let us down or abused us) will ever be nice, or loving or kind or protective or not eat us for lunch is very important, IMO.
I know I haven't provided any context here but I'm having a little trouble concentrating :shock:
I prefer to think of it as giving up expectations
Don't mess wid Hope :shock:
:)
Heh...... I've been waiting for that violent uprising, lol; )
lol... yeah, well... that's about as violent as I get, but crueler folks than you have sought to squash me beneath their proverbial heels for having the audacity to differ in perspective via something so daring as suggesting an alternative verbiage. LOL
My response to said squashers: Phooey on you.
Happy Friday, dear Lighter.
Love,
Carolyn
-
I've said it before and I'll keep saying it....
bc I think it's one part of the healing equation....
giving up hope, that our loved ones (whoever let us down or abused us) will ever be nice, or loving or kind or protective or not eat us for lunch is very important, IMO.
I know I haven't provided any context here but I'm having a little trouble concentrating :shock:
I prefer to think of it as giving up expectations
Don't mess wid Hope :shock:
:)
Heh...... I've been waiting for that violent uprising, lol; )
lol... yeah, well... that's about as violent as I get, but crueler folks than you have sought to squash me beneath their proverbial heels for having the audacity to differ in perspective via something so daring as suggesting an alternative verbiage. LOL
My response to said squashers: Phooey on you.
Happy Friday, dear Lighter.
Love,
Carolyn
Crueler?
Than Moi?
I'm afraid I'm giong to have to squash ya for that verbiage, Hope, lol; )
-
lol... you ole softy, you...
I got a bonfire goin here. Every once in awhile I step out to take a whiff... and hum... mem-o-rieeeeeees. Be nice, now. I've punished myself enough.
Thanks for the grins, kiddo.
Love,
Carolyn
-
I am really feeling a bit confused since this thread had diverted from Iphi's original topic, how she feels about her N relationships destroying her sense of self. This is a board for support and advice, not a free for all. If people have issues with one another, kindly take them into PM's or emails where they belong. I have started reading a number of interesting threads, only to notice they have been hijacked. I would like to return this thread to its original purpose. The advice Iphi asked for to begin with.
The thing that bothers me is the parts of my own life as an adult that are not working. That's the larger context. It's the anxiety, the lack of confidence, this consistent belief that I will be rejected if I try things, that I can't do what I want to do because it will fail. This fear of going for it. But on the other side - a big desire to go for it. I live with a lot of internal tension that way.
Like I have said elsewhere, if it wasn't for the current life issues - that have also been with me for over a decade - then I would probably let sleeping dogs lie. The frustration drives me to it. It was when I quit smoking that I started to ask what the smoking was about - self calming, numbing out distressful emotions and anxiety, having a visible flaw to divert attackers from other more hurtfully personal flaws. I realized the smoking covered my anxieties - and that I would have to address the anxieties directly. The smoking would no longer be an excuse not to socialize or pursue goals. I had to get to the fear.
And that is what led me to NPD and this board and discovering my PTSD this topic about the roots of my PTSD. So it's okay. It's good. I think understanding will really help me make progress on recognizing the introject, the negative scripts, and when I am doing depressive thinking. I'm really not at all who I thought I was and that is a good thing.
CH, when I quit I was soooo happy to be getting the cold shoulder from my dad and knowing for the first time in my life that I was overjoyed to ignore him right back (instead of anxiously trying to make 'amends' for my 'crimes'). Personally I would not endanger my quit by opening any upsetting envelopes! I only spoke to him twice the first year I quit. I would have been happy to go on that way but eventually I felt it necessary to tell him I was pregnant.
tayana - I have read some of your topics in the past when I was not yet posting on the board and I have to tell you - you are so brave and you have had a lot to overcome in your mother - wow she is such a negative force. I am so happy for you and your son that you broke out of her gravitational pull and are in your own place, despite all her fearmongering and manipulation and scheming stuff. Thank you for sharing your hard won wisdom here - your posts are awesome! Your resolve inspires me!
Take care everybody.
Iphi, I'm going to respond directly to you, and I will attempt to not offend or step on anyone's toes. I'm going to offer some more advice from my recent class and also what worked for me. Thank you for your kind words. I am much happier now, and I am managing to not feel disappointment when my mom reaches out and tries to act like a "normal" parent then doesn't follow through. She expects me to come to her, and I don't really want to.
Here are some things that I found very beneficial for me:
I gave myself permission to do things I enjoyed. Whether that was checking out a book I'd wanted to read from the library, spending an afternoon doing nothing, taking a nap, etc. I gave myself permission, because I had to learn that I had to value myself first before I could worry about other people. I find that I spend much less time watching TV and other tasks like that because I have so many things I want to do. I even enjoy doing laundry and that sort of thing because my mother dictated how my clothes should be folded, hung, washed, dried, etc. I do it my way. This was something the instructor in my class mentioned yesterday, taking out thirty minutes a day for a "date" with yourself. You don't have to spend money, just little things. Read a book, try out a new hairstyle, etc. You have to spend time with yourself because you matter. I write a lot, and that my "me" time. I'd like my "me" time better if my son would go to bed and stay there, but that's okay.
I set goals. You mentioned that there were things in your adult life that weren't working. So here's advice from my class. Decide what you really want. Sit down and make a list of things you'd like to do/try/want. Whether that's changing jobs, working on a promotion, etc. You have to decide what you want before you set goals to get there. Once you've figured out what you want, set goals for yourself. Set both long-term and short term goals with start and stop dates. There are even little computer programs that you can use to make visuals for this. Microsoft Project is one, but I'm sure there are some open source programs that do the same thing. To use my own experience:
I wanted to get out of my parents house. That was my long term goal, but my finances were so messed up that I spent three years trying to accomplish this. I took it one step at a time. I chose on debt, and paid it off. Then I tackled another. I kept the long term goal in mind, but I took little steps. When the time came that my debts were paid, then I started looking for new housing, doing my research about the area, about the schools, etc. I decided that I was moving before school started up again. I ended up getting out much sooner than planned. I made certain that I had everything under control, thought of, etc so there could be no opposition. I did have help with this. My T worked with me on setting goals and dealing with my feelings, because things got really nasty for a few weeks.
I don't know if you work with a therapist or counselor or not, but I don't think I would be where I am now without the help I received from my T. You might look into it, or you could look for a support group for adult children of abuse, or something similar. There is actually a group for adult children of narcissists in my area, but I haven't attended. Something like this could help you work through the PTSD. I didn't realize I had PTSD symptoms until I read the book "Did you have Controlling Parents?" And I had almost every symptom listed. It was a very scary moment, realizing how much damage my nmom and enabling father had done to me.
You said you have lack of confidence, fear of rejection, and anxiety. I can relate. I am terrified of walking into a room full of strangers, but I start a dialogue with myself. "It will be fine. Walk in there take the good things away and if something good happens, it happens." I do that a lot. I'm afraid of socializing, afraid of meeting people, and I ended up rehearsing potential dialogues a lot. It's very, very scary for me. Like yesterday, I could barely eat my breakfast because I was afraid someone would think I was eating like a pig, but I made myself do it, and after a little while the anxiety went away. As much as I wanted to though, I couldn't go up to the speaker afterwards and tell him what a wonderful seminar it was. Maybe that will get better with time too.
I hope this helps.
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My two-penn'orth:
I think Iphi's topic is a very valuable one, and it would have been good to continue discussing it with her.
But I disagree with an earlier poster who claimed that this thread got 'jacked' (as they put it).
Actually, I don't believe it did get hijacked onto a *different* topic, really.
N's destroy someone's sense of self by doing what has happened in this thread...they twist things, they gaslight, they claim things are 'true' as if they have the monopoly on defining that...
This is entirely relevant to this topic. It's just unfortunatte that it got so heated.
N's destroy someone's sense of self by this drip, drip, drip of emotional abuse, until the honest people stop talking to each other. They might choose to withdraw, because that's safer. Then they feel alone. Then they feel bad. Then they feel annihilated.
Because, in one sense, they have. They have been squashed by the abusive person.
This is what we need to discuss, out in the open, so that we can work out strategies for not letting it happen. Here or anywhere else, too.
Janet
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Dear Iphi,
On the topic of Emotional Flooding, I saw this and thought of you...
Flooding or Blunting: Vacillating Expression and Non-Expression in Bereavement and Trauma
(begins at pg. 240)
http://books.google.com/books?id=dBtfhBY1E6IC&pg=PA241&lpg=PA241&dq=emotionally+flooded&source=web&ots=CcL1jkxNRc&sig=A2pnYAL1uXEMVNPc4fWi7DcOD4U#PPA240,M1 (http://books.google.com/books?id=dBtfhBY1E6IC&pg=PA241&lpg=PA241&dq=emotionally+flooded&source=web&ots=CcL1jkxNRc&sig=A2pnYAL1uXEMVNPc4fWi7DcOD4U#PPA240,M1)
More to come.
Love,
Carolyn
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Dear Authentic,
Last year at times I felt fear of you. I don't now.
So maybe I have grown from these cycles.
Everybody can't trust everybody. Or like everybody's style.
That's the way it is in life, and in this small microcosm of life.
I won't try to defend myself from total tear-downs any more.
I hope they won't keep happening but that's not in my control.
I should have waited to write until I was no longer angry, and
perhaps I would have found less loaded adjectives. I see I could
have and should have. I'm never effective in confronting you and I
know words can help and inspire or they can be used to wound.
When I said "malignant" I was angry and striking at you. I am sorry.
I have the right to think any private thought, but labeling your
discussion of CB that way in public here, was shaming. So I understand
why you have responded this way.
I am sorry, Authentic. It was not kind to write that criticism of you.
It took me a while to see this. But now I do.
Different methods, styles, intensities, there is room for all of us.
I'll try to avoid dialogue unless I am feeling grounded in compassion.
To the best of my ability, which wobbles, ebbs, comes back.
(Iphi, I'm sorry for the derailment. I am going to read your first post
anew and will just stay in that dialogue if I post on this thread again.)
Going in peace, Authentic, and I am wishing the same for you.
Hops
-
Niiiiiice.... now I see why tays gone.