Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Gabben on February 14, 2008, 05:39:30 PM
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Just found article. It is helpful in reaffirming N saint. Last night I was given another blow. I have now officially been ousted by N saint from my ministry. Of course the pain is really about FOO stuff and how unvalued I was by my mom.
All I have to say is thank heavens I am not out to win, let her have what she wants, I just want her to leave me alone.
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Statistics tell us that approximately 1 out of 20 people we interact with have, on some level that is destructive, sociopath tendencies. I’m sure you’ve heard that serial killers are sociopaths, and that is true to the extreme. Naturally, there are different levels of dysfunction, just as there are different levels of, say, depression.
The predators I speak of are “Sociopath-Lite,” for lack of a better term. These people have a seared conscience and they view other people as objects to manipulate to get what they want. Most of them are narcissists, and will use you to fulfill what is called, “narcissistic supply.”
Narcissistic Supply is the term for what these people are addicted to. It is not alcohol or drugs, or even sex per se. They need your adoration, admiration, attention and time and the appetite for this supply is insatiable as they are basically emotional black holes, sucking your love and energy into themselves to try to satisfy the emptiness inside their souls. They truly are the walking dead. This emptiness is so profound and permanent that they are rarely helped by any kind of therapy, because they are so used to acting rather than actually being who they really are. They refuse to lower their guard and let others know their real personalities.
This emotional deformity is usually the result of profound abuse, emotional trauma or neglect from a primary caretaker, even as early as infancy. They learned early on to mimic the kind of person the caretakers seemed to want in order to survive. In the process, they discard and despise their true selves and manufacture a false self that they present to the world.
Sad? Yes, absolutely. However, these folks are usually so full of rage that they quickly learn how to channel and use the anger in a meaningful way; the ability to expertly manipulate and ultimately emotionally injure others which makes them feel superior and powerful. This way, they feel they’re in control and cannot be hurt again. They turn into an abuser. A narcissist with sociopaths tendencies is a very dangerous person indeed; the proverbial wolf in sheep’s clothing. They are constantly on the prowl for new sources of “supply” and can sense a potential victim almost immediately, even the first time they meet the individual.
Let’s pause for a moment to examine the perfect victim of these monsters. Most people grow up in relatively normal homes where love, affection and truth were modeled. These future victims were taught to be courteous, trusting and compassionate and in the normal course of their lives, have personally encountered nothing untoward that would change their view of the world and the strangers they meet. They’ve heard of evil people on the news and have seen them depicted in movies but have never actually crossed paths with one. In other words, they’re sitting ducks.
These victims are not stupid or thickheaded. They should be able to basically trust in the goodness of others. They practice the golden rule and simply assume others do the same. They are naïve but once they encounter and comprehend the evil that truly exists “out there”, their lives are forever altered and their innocence shattered.
When the narcissist/sociopath targets a victim, they immediately begin to idealize and over-value this new source of “supply.” They are gifted actors, having presented their false self for so many years, and are able to expertly simulate emotions as they “bond” with the victim. They are attracted, curious, and deeply interested in the source and begin a process of courting or grooming the victim. They are incredibly charming and present themselves to be a deep, passionate person capable of loving or of being hurt. They appear to be empathetic and caring but all of these signs are the sheep’s clothing of the narcissist.
Naturally, the victim falls head over heels in love with the mirage or false self the narcissist projects and they completely buy into the lies they are told.
The narcissist’s seemingly genuine immersion and exaggerated high regard for the source is extremely alluring to the victim. It makes them feel safe, loved and admired. The narcissist showers them with attention and they are so convincing they’re all but impossible to resist when they are on the hunt for a source of supply.
However, and this is what you must understand, once the victim is completely hooked and emotionally enmeshed, the narcissist begins to deplete them of their “supply” like a vampire drinks the blood of his victim. This begins to manifest itself by the narcissist toying and playing head games with the source.
They’ll deny saying certain things the victim knows they said; they woo seductively and then turn cold and angry causing the source to come running to apologize for some supposed transgression.
Of course, to be idealized one minute and totally devalued the next is utterly incomprehensible to the victim. Normal people do not treat others this way. It is a mind bending experience that leaves the victim questioning their self worth, judgment and sanity not to mention having to grapple with the extreme grief of suddenly losing what seemed to be a perfect relationship. There is a term for what a narcissist/sociopath does to his victims. It is called emotional rape. It is the systematic and deliberate abuse of a person’s higher emotions without their consent. The victim fully trusts the alluring false self that is presented to them and is made to feel emotions and bonding for the express purpose of being used and discarded. When they give the narcissist the privilege of looking into their soul they never dreamed that intimacy would be abused.
The narcissist feels no true emotions. They are incapable. The “love” they feel for the source disappears immediately when the victim’s usefulness runs its course or when a seemingly better qualified source of supply is noticed. They are able to go their merry way without the encumbrance of guilt or remorse.
Being a tender human being, the victim usually grieves and misses the relationship for quite some time. The loss is devastating and they can get very depressed, blame themselves, obsess about contacting the narcissist, feel like they’re going crazy, and experience many other emotional manifestations that physical rape victims endure. The emotional roller coaster is so horrific that some victims even display symptoms of post traumatic stress syndrome.
It’s shocking and disgusting how many narcissists automatically gravitate towards positions of power, i.e., the military, pastors, counselors, Bible teachers, CEO’s, school teachers, physicians, etc. Once they spot a potential source, they misuse their authority to attract and control the victim. Again, the internet is the perfect place for these creatures to troll for sources of supply. They expertly navigate chat rooms, looking for vulnerable, lonely women. They set up websites that offer advice or counseling for every kind of loss. They present themselves as warm, caring and compassionate and appear to be extremely attractive.
The narcissist/sociopath exploits and then completely rejects his victims. The most bizarre aspect of this “person” is there little to no malice involved. He views people as things to be used. The same way we feel neither hate nor love for a garden hose, he feels the same about other people. Absolutely nothing.
Beware!
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All I have to say is thank heavens I am not out to win, let her have what she wants, I just want her to leave me alone.
Amen, dear (((((((((((Lise))))))))))))... and she has not won a thing, because the battle belongs to the Lord.
Ministry is all about service... which is why N can never perform - - - because she's always too busy serving herself.
I know it's so hard to think of this as a light and momentary struggle... I'm still praying.
Love,
Carolyn
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Thank you .Lise,. That had so much good information. It was very clear and easy to understand. I saw it in new light. Love Ami
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the battle belongs to the Lord.
Wow, I could contemplate that thought for a while.
Thanks.
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Lise, you're welcome. I have been intensely angry about these things myself, but that goes absolutely nowhere. Anger is not a defense... it's a symptom, I believe. So from now on, please remind me if I forget - - to search the Scriptures for my own responses and not to search my opinions... lol
((((((Lise)))))))
Want some beans 'n cornbread?
Frosted sugar cookies for dessert.
From Proverbs chapter 21
27 God loathes the sacrifice of an evil person, especially when it is brought with ulterior motives.
28 A false witness will be cut off, but an attentive witness will be allowed to speak.
29 The wicked put up a bold front, but the upright proceed with care.
30 Human plans, no matter how wise or well advised, cannot stand against the Lord.
31 The horses are prepared for battle, but the victory belongs to the Lord.
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Ann told me some very interesting things. She told me that if I judge s/one(even if they "deserve" it), I put a spiritual law in to place , where I get back "destructive " things. It is like "What you sow ,you reap"
She said that I had to ask forgiveness that I judged my M(even though my M "deserved" it according to what is right and wrong,in my eyes).
I can see what Ann says. We, as humans ,were not supposed to judge. Only God is. We can,of course, avoid people etc, but judgement is not ours to mete out and so we hurt ourselves by doing it.
I hope this provides some help. It did to me. It really helped release me from my M . I don't feel as attached as I did ,before.
Ami
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Ann told me some very interesting things. She told me that if I judge s/one(even if they "deserve" it), I put a spiritual law in to place , where I get back "destructive " things. It is like "What you sow ,you reap"
She said that I had to ask forgiveness that I judged my M(even though my M "deserved" it according to what is right and wrong,in my eyes).
I can see what Ann says. We, as humans ,were not supposed to judge. Only God is. We can,of course, avoid people etc, but judgement is not ours to mete out and so we hurt ourselves by doing it.
I hope this provides some help. It did to me. It really helped release me from my M . I don't feel as attached as I did ,before.
Ami
Ami,
I resonate with accord. As I understand; I am to forgive, and forget, in forgiving I release the person from being bound.
And also, in forgiving, I also release myself too, from otherwise, bondage and bitterness. I let it go, to God, through Christ His Son.
In doing this, in letting go, I am then offering up the person, to God, who is the one who can reach someone's heart.
Hence, I can move on. In liberty and freedom, of heart and soul.
Leah x
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Ann told me some very interesting things. She told me that if I judge s/one(even if they "deserve" it), I put a spiritual law in to place , where I get back "destructive " things. It is like "What you sow ,you reap"
She said that I had to ask forgiveness that I judged my M(even though my M "deserved" it according to what is right and wrong,in my eyes).
I can see what Ann says. We, as humans ,were not supposed to judge. Only God is. We can,of course, avoid people etc, but judgement is not ours to mete out and so we hurt ourselves by doing it.
I hope this provides some help. It did to me. It really helped release me from my M . I don't feel as attached as I did ,before.
Ami
Ami,
My pastor teaches this, too, and it's one of those teachings which has always stuck in my throat, a bit, but as it sinks into my pea-brain through repeated exercise and practice (the wrong way :?) I am really coming to believe it. Thank you for the reminder.
Carolyn
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Ann told me some very interesting things. She told me that if I judge s/one(even if they "deserve" it), I put a spiritual law in to place , where I get back "destructive " things. It is like "What you sow ,you reap"
She said that I had to ask forgiveness that I judged my M(even though my M "deserved" it according to what is right and wrong,in my eyes).
I can see what Ann says. We, as humans ,were not supposed to judge. Only God is. We can,of course, avoid people etc, but judgement is not ours to mete out and so we hurt ourselves by doing it.
I hope this provides some help. It did to me. It really helped release me from my M . I don't feel as attached as I did ,before.
Ami
Hi Ami,
Absolutely, yes! This morning while driving to work and praying I heard myself saying what you sow you will reap. Last night I was experiencing all the deep old anger at my mom and the old hurt that my little inner child had been carrying around, I cried so many tears. :cry:
But as far as N saint, there is no judgement other than discerning her behavior as wrong and hurtful which we need to do in order to absorb the reality of the situation. But there is a sort of detached noncondeming approach I have been taking with N saint. (just read most of my posts where I mention blessing her and praying for her good). I have only been talking about the intense pain more than making nasty judgements.
It is a fine line between judging and condemning.
Scott Peck actually talks about it in People of the Lie...on how if we judge others as evil, then we are evil for judging.
But then he goes onto argue that we have to discern what is wrong and right, that is the kind of judgement, I am trying to make here...where was I at fault? Am I the crazy one? What hurt and what was wrong-- etc., does that make sense?
Thank you -- Peace!
Lise
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Yes, Lise. You have to "judge" your side of the street,but IF you did anything wrong, bring it to God and ask for forgiveness. So, your part is to see your role in it. Ask God to reveal your part in the problem.
We can have a part ,even in abuse(as adults) Our part could be allowing abuse or not trusting our intuition about the person. You told me that you had a bad feeling about this lady,right from the beginning.
Your part may have been not listening to your "gut"(still, small voice).We are NOT to condemn ourselves for our part, just to learn and then bring it to God.Ann told me to leave it there,once I brought it. That is hard,too.
With Ann, I learned many lessons when she "hurt" me. I learned that it would not kill me, for one.I learned that people would help me, when I could not help myself .
That lesson could apply to you, in this case,Lise. Even if she turns people against you, you are strong enough to go on. it won't kill you.
That is how I see it, anyway. Love Ami
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Dear Carolyn, Lise and Leah,
It is such a relief to me NOT to judge. Ann helped me so much when she taught me this. I feel released from pain and free.
I like being a "small person" and God being a "big ""person", so to speak.
Scott's death humbled me a great deal. My own child committed suicide. How much more can you go "down" than that?
I am going through an internal revolution.
With s/thing like this, you either change or you give up. It would be easy to be broken,but I want to go forward.
I am so glad that Ann's teachings were helpful to you. That makes me very happy. Ann is coming again,soon, so I should have more wisdom to share. I should have an Ann's corner(lol). Love, Ami
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Dear Ami,
What you said is true; God sent Ann to you, as His humble vessel.
Leah x
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Ami,
I have sensed that relief in some areas, but there are other places where I still get strong internal promptings to judge, judge, judge.
In those cases, it's hard for me to tell what's underlying the urge to judge... but I think it's some odd mixture of pride and fear.
In my head, I know that I'm no better than anyone on the planet, but apparently my heart still has some icy spots - along with some terrified spots -
and lately I'm recognizing that the fear is the old one of being made a fool of... being taken advantage of... which is a totally ridiculous thing after everything I've lost already,
and yet it hangs on, like a dinosaur which should have gone extinct in the last milennium.
Anyhow, because of a combination of all the above, I have been unable to address you regarding the death of your son...
but I am deeply sorry for your loss, Ami.
And I know what you mean about being a small person and letting God be the big Person.
I've found so much relief in that truth, over time... and yet I still resist it on occasion... "kicking against the pricks", so to speak.
Sorry, KJV is what sticks in my head.
And I think an Ann's corner is a great idea... lol.
God bless and continue to keep you, Ami.
Carolyn
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Dear Carolyn,
I don't really understand about "why" you could not address the death of my son.I guess I can't really understand what you are saying. My brain is not all there, either. Were you judging me? I noticed that you did not address it and was curious. I would be interested in understanding your thinking,if you care to share.If not, that is fine, also.
Ami
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Dear Carolyn,
I don't really understand about "why" you could not address the death of my son.I guess I can't really understand what you are saying. My brain is not all there, either. Were you judging me? I noticed that you did not address it and was curious. I would be interested in understanding your thinking,if you care to share.If not, that is fine, also.
Ami
Yes, Ami, I feel that I must have been judging you, but I'm not even completely sure why... and so I can't really explain further.
I have this thing where I cannot say something unless I really believe it and feel it... and so when my feelings blank out, I cannot cover that up with words just to fill in the blanks. I just can't. It's a sort of speechlessness which I cannot even explain. I'm sorry that's the best explanation I have at this point.
Carolyn
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Dear Carolyn,
I do feel "unsettled " with your response,but we will just leave it at that. Ami
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Dear Carolyn,
I do feel "unsettled " with your response,but we will just leave it at that. Ami
Thank you, Ami. I don't want to say anything that might cause you a setback or delay your movement through the stages of grieving your loss, and so I think that is best. The issue or problem is mine, not yourse, and I will continue to pray about it... as I've been doing... and this is as far as I've gotten so far. I do wish you well.
Carolyn
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Dear Ami,
I have to sign off now, please know that you remain in my prayers.
Very much looking forward to you sharing of God's pure Words, from Ann.
Love, Leah
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You know, Carolyn, I will say this. The old adage,"If you cannot say s/thing nice, Don't say anything" applies here(IMO).It really is your problem if you cannot be gracious enough to get out an"I am sorry". Even ,if you could not do that,it was VERY boorish of you to tell me the explanation of WHY you could not say you were sorry.
Ami
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You know, Carolyn, I will say this. The old adage,"If you cannot say s/thing nice, Don't say anything" applies here(IMO).It really is your problem if you cannot be gracious enough to get out an"I am sorry". Even ,if you could not do that,it was VERY boorish of you to tell me the explanation of WHY you could not say you were sorry.
Ami
Ami,
I think you're right. It was very boorish of me to attempt an explanation... and I am sorry.
Carolyn
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Dear Carolyn,
I have to say this for myself, Carolyn.I have interacted with many,many people since Scott's death. No one has treated me with such a lacking in human warmth, as you have.It is MY lack that I care.It is MY immaturity that it upsets me.
It is my next lesson --- that what does it matter at ALL what you say or think?
Ami
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That lesson could apply to you, in this case,Lise. Even if she turns people against you, you are strong enough to go on. it won't kill you.
That is how I see it, anyway. Love Ami
Ami -- thanks for your support and encouragement, your very clear and you have some profound wisdom pouring out of you these days -- what a blessing you are.
I see it that way too, "it won't kill you." Right!!
There are no quick fixes we just have to re-feel and experience our old pain and new pains.
My new spiritual director tells me that talking about the trauma and rehashing is part of what helps us and part of what allows us to get the old pain out so that we are not continuing to act out the drama. Quite frankly I have not been judging N saint -- just hurting and angry from the injustice of her wounds.
I'm just trying to feel and work out my pain -- not do a quick fix.
Ami -- if you get a chance please read the envious pattern thread -- it outlines all the ways I have been looking at myself. If you get another chance read the "safe people" thread, it outlines all of the ways in which I have written about MY PART with n saint and my mom, I'm about 20 steps ahead of you :P
Your lessons with Ann are not always going to fit to me and they are not always going to me my lessons right at that time. You and I are at different stages and places of our healing journey but both of us have value, wisdom and insights to share.
Your time and love that you give me to try to help me is appreciated and cherished by me.
Thanks for your patience and compassion (((((((((((AMI))))))))))) You teach me about strength and humility.
Peace,
Lise
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That is so sweet,Lise. I will try to read the threads. My brain is not very clear these days, so it may take me awhile.
I will write more ,later. Love Ami
((((((((Lise)))))))))))))
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Dear Ami and Carolyn,
Reading your posts to each other was difficult for me. However, I feel confident that you will both work out your difficulties.
Ami -- I hear that at this time your life you are struggling with feelings of resentment towards Carolyn for her now admitted judgement of the situation of Scott's death?
I hear your pain and how much that would hurt to feel judged by someone at this time in your life because it must be touching that deepest fear and that most sensitive spot.
Since Scotts death I have been hearing you in facing yourself but I am also hearing you condem your own self FIRST, as a defense against the truly dreaded fear of others judgement and condemnation.
It is as if you are saying "it was all my fault, world, please don't judge me." This way you can ward off anyones judgement as a sort of defense.
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People are going to judge us/you and just like you told me in your good advice, it won't kill you what others think.
The pain, anguish, heartache, shame and guilt you are suffering breaks my heart for you.
Here is what I do when I feel resentment and I want to get free:
(And, yes -- I am taking your inventory.)
Who Why What part of self it threatens My part/or wrongs
Carolyn Because she judged me Self--esteem Selfish
Ego/Pride Self -seeking
Emotional security dishonest
Sex relations and hidden agendas inconsiderate
frieghtended
The bottom line is fear -- God gave us our instincts and he wants to provide we just do not trust him.
Having faith is one of the hardest things I am facing right now. Despite the pain and anguish I have been in I have to just persevere, no retaliation just have faith and do what in's front of me each day that I know is good and right.
Ami - I am glad that you spoke your heart and mind to Carolyn -- I know that Carolyn meant you no harm but I know that it must have hurt.
You are OK ((((((((((AMI))))))))))
Lise
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Dear Lise,
I need to disagree with a point of yours. IMO, Carolyn meant me harm b/c no one who has lived on this earth as long as she has and could be THAT callous ,unless they meant to.
However , that being said, this is a point that could be argued ,forever,what is in a person's mind.
I just need to say it, as I see it-- Carolyn meant to hurt me when I was down and weak. She saved it up .
That is my intuition,on it and Carolyn can say 'yeah" or "nay" forever, and it will not change my mind.
It is not really a point that can be argued b/c it is "mind reading". Thanks Lise ,for trying to make a situation that cannot be resolved, resolvable(lol). Some things can't be made "pretty" or better. This comes under that heading for me. I can grow and learn ,though,so I will do that. Love Ami
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Dear Lise,
I need to disagree with a point of yours. IMO, Carolyn meant me harm b/c no one who has lived on this earth as long as she has and could be THAT callous ,unless they meant to.
Ami -- your accusing Carolyn of callousness because she did not express sympathy for your loss?
There were hundred of people expressing their love and support to you Ami.
I had to force myself to post on your "please pray for me thread" not because I did not feel deep sympathy and compassion for you but because I just could not find words to say. -- People get like that when confusing tragedy strikes.
Did it ever occur to you that Carolyn just did not have anything say and that it was not so black and white as calling her cruel but more a mix of issues?
Lise
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Lise,
I will not change my mind about Carolyn's intentions--deliberate cruelty. I really don't want to discuss it,anymore,b/c no one can really know the truth b/c it is "mind reading "Carolyn's mind.So, it is silly to discuss it further,Lise.
Ami
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OK, done -- good thinking, your right. Lise
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Thank you,Lise, for respecting me on this!!!!! Love, Ami
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Ami -- your accusing Carolyn of callousness because she did not express sympathy for your loss?
Actually Gabben - Ami accused Certain Hope of judging her because Certain Hope said
she was judging her.
Yes, Ami, I feel that I must have been judging you, but I'm not even completely sure why... and so I can't really explain further.
I have this thing where I cannot say something unless I really believe it and feel it... and so when my feelings blank out, I cannot cover that up with words just to fill in the blanks. I just can't. It's a sort of speechlessness which I cannot even explain. I'm sorry that's the best explanation I have at this point.
It is the verbalized judgement that is callous at this time.
One of the 12 steps calls for a person to take their own inventory and to apologize to those who we have harmed unless doing so causes more harm. That is what this apology did. I have stood by and not said anything because I did not want to start a fight and I would expect Certain Hope or anyone to be caught up short by having one's actions called "callous" and yet I have decided that the ethic was greater to support the mother of a child who tragically chose on their own volition, at a time of compromised ability to make sound judgments, to take their life.
While most things here on the board are valid opportunities to work through our own woundings and ensuing struggles, the extraordinary sensitivity of Ami's loss is simply different and should be held to a different standard out of common decency. And it is out of my own sense of decency that I decided to post my views here at this time, even at the risk of offending Certain Hope.
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I found this on the internet and find the contents explain that it is normal though incorrect for a parent to blame him or herself. It is also clear that society (and individuals in society) often blame parents.
This is a lengthy article but I am posting it (slightly abridged) because this is such an important issue.
http://www.bereavedparentsusa.org/images/pdfs/bpusasuicide.pdf
SUICIDE
S uicide is the eighth leading cause of death in the United States, ahead
of both homicide and AIDS. The highest numbers are in the 15 to 34 age
group. Statistics are small comfort to parents of suicide victims who now
face the loss of their child plus the heightened negative emotions which
suicide leaves in its wake.
Normal grief reactions such as shock, guilt, denial, anger, and depression will occur and are intense for
the families of suicide victims. Parents often feel a deeper sense of guilt and failure than those whose child died in other ways. They feel they should have known what was going to happen, that they missed vital clues, that they are somehow responsible for not preventing the suicide, that they were poor parents. These feelings persist even though most psychiatrists will tell you that if a person is determined to complete suicide, he or she will find a way in spite of anyone’s best efforts to prevent the act.
Society’s attitude toward suicide often exacerbates the parents’ negative emotions. Generally speaking,
society frowns on suicide and looks toward the parents as possessing poor parenting skills. They may
point at mental illness as the cause and scrutinize a family’s history of aberrant behavior. The clergy often
is at a loss to know what to say since many believe the Bible points to suicide as a mortal sin.
Consequently, they may be somewhat tongue-tied in trying to comfort. (Careful Bible reading will not
reveal that Jesus condemned suicide although most people do not know that.)
If your child left a suicide note, you have some understanding of his or her frame of mind. Without a
note, the question why burns more deeply. If your child had a troubled past or was receiving mental
health services, you may be able to conclude that medication was wrong or that irrational thinking
beyond his or her control led to the act.
The question why, with or without a note, will haunt you for months or even years as you strain to gain
understanding of the dynamics of suicide. In your search for answers you may read about suicide,
evaluate what you read, and apply what you have learned to your own personal situation. You will
examine your life and coping techniques, which is also a natural part of any bereavement. You will no
doubt make changes in your beliefs and actions. For many, a kinder, more understanding person will
emerge.
As time goes on, you will realize you may never have all the answers, the why will grow less urgent,
and you will finally be able to put it to rest as one of life’s unanswerable questions. You will not get to
this last stage easily or quickly. But hold to the thought that you will get there as you grow and heal.
For all parents, guilt and what-ifs go hand in hand with grief. The guilt after a suicide can be all consuming
for months or even years. You find yourself recalling every cross word you ever said, every
wrong decision you ever made, every turn of events you think you could have altered. At first it is
impossible to admit that you did the best you could given what you knew (your own level of maturity) at
the time. Do you really know a parent who gets up in the morning and asks, “Now let’s see what I can do
today to make this child miserable”? Somewhere in your grief you will finally accept that you did your
best, but if you didn’t, you will learn to forgive yourself for your mistakes, resolving to do better.
Forgiving yourself and your child is a big hurdle along grief’s rocky road and is a sign of the healing you
are striving for.
As you watch any surviving children try to deal with the suicide of their sibling, you may experience
anger at the child who died, at others you feel contributed to the death, at society for its attitudes toward
suicide, or at God for letting it happen. Society generally does not understand the anger that can go with
grief.
Even to family members, your anger may seem inappropriate, frightening, and upsetting. For this
reason you may want to seek professional help to deal with the anger, you may want to write down your
feelings as a way of defusing them without doing harm to your surviving family and those around you,
you may want to attend a support group of bereaved parents where understanding is abundant, or you
may be fortunate enough to have close friends or clergy who will listen non-judgmentally. Do not
swallow your anger because it will fester inside you and increase the depression you are already
experiencing. Rational anger is a healthy emotion which can be a steppingstone toward positive
resolution of grief.
Remember that crying is normal so don’t censure yourself for it. As a bereaved parent you will cry, you
will get depressed, you will think you’re going crazy, and you may wish you could swap places with
your dead child. These are all normal grief reactions.
Acknowledge that your surviving children, if you have any, need your loving attention after their
sibling’s suicide since that death may make them feel especially fragile and less secure in their ability to
control their own lives. They, too, will feel society’s ambivalence about the manner of death. Because they
are trying not to upset you further, they may be reluctant to discuss their true feelings. If they seek others
for solace, be understanding of that but do embrace every opportunity for honest discussion and
reassurance of your faith in them and your love for them.
At the beginning of your grief journey, you will think nothing good can come from the soul-wrenching
experience of your child’s suicide, but you can grow from your grief and reach a new understanding of
life and the way it should be lived. Other families have come to terms with suicide, eventually sifting out
happy memories of their child to carry in their hearts. You cannot, after the fact, change the circumstances
of the death, but you can change yourself for the better. Look for every opportunity to do that.
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Ami -- your accusing Carolyn of callousness because she did not express sympathy for your loss?
Actually Gabben - Ami accused Certain Hope of judging her because Certain Hope said
she was judging her.
Yes, Ami, I feel that I must have been judging you, but I'm not even completely sure why... and so I can't really explain further.
I have this thing where I cannot say something unless I really believe it and feel it... and so when my feelings blank out, I cannot cover that up with words just to fill in the blanks. I just can't. It's a sort of speechlessness which I cannot even explain. I'm sorry that's the best explanation I have at this point.
Thanks GS -- I appreciate this and the article.
I was not evading the fact that Certain Hope was judging Ami -- I'm sure that if we were to get really honest, a lot of people, in their attempts to make sense of the tragedy and in human nature are going to make judgements, myself included. How painful for Ami, deep down she knows that people make the judgments.
However, I have not to acted on my judgements or acted in a judgemental way.
My question for Ami was an attempt at clarity seeking.
Also, Ami did tell Carolyn that she was callous, therefore, I was seeking clarity, does Ami perceive Carolyn as callous for judging or for not offering sympathy?
Does that help explain?
Lise
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I resonate with accord -- regarding the content and context of posting by GS.
I am immensely grateful that GS has posted with strength and courage -- posting and article alike.
Leah x
"You shall know them by their fruits" in all matters of the heart, which flows forth and is seen.
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If s/one is deliberately cruel to you,on the board or in 3 D life, you have some options opened to you and some closed. You CAN"T make them not be cruel. You can't make them act differently.
You can only try to tell the truth,as your heart and soul sees it. I know that we all can be cruel ,at times. We have all been on both sides of the equation,
I am on the "bad" side ,now, but my definition of myself cannot be from another person.
So many of our threads are about this very issue. Who are we and who defines us?
That is my lesson ,here.
Ami
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Also, Ami did tell Carolyn that she was callous, therefore, I was seeking clarity, does Ami perceive Carolyn as callous for judging or for not offering sympathy?
Lise,
Why does it matter which one it was? That really has no relevance to the general point, does it? Ami
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Hi Lise,
I was wondering something.
In my covenant groups we have a ritual known as the "holding silence."
What it means is, when someone confesses or shares something very difficult and intimate about themselves, "good" or "bad"...we try to not to rush in with comment, soothing, fixing, or analysis.
It's very hard. We usually blow it. The whole purpose of us being together is to speak, and share. But now and then something happens and we do remember, or spontaneously, we are quiet for a while. Not always, but sometimes, it turns out that the holding silence allows the person who spoke to have a deeper realization. Some deeper step in the process that was represented.
I don't know if that applies here, but I wonder if it might. I wonder if it might have gone differently had you not stepped in to talk about Carolyn's posts to Ami. Now it has rapidly calcified into a firm judgement of Carolyn as cruel and a complete retreat from dialogue with her. How can they find a way through? (I don't know if there is an answer. Or has to be. And I certainly understand your impulse to speak about it. Practically irresistible.)
I'm not sure that wouldn't have happened anyway. But sometimes a holding silence gives space for important things to happen in. I would have liked to leave the space for them to cross. Maybe (or not) something profound would have happened. (I'm not blaming you or judging you for speaking, Lise...I only think about things like this in hindsight, after an interaction has happened. I'm just trying to figure out if I do see anything useful. Maybe not.)
Another cycle can be, we judge someone for being judgmental...on the cycle spins.
I have a feeling Carolyn was trying to share something very difficult and if there was a desire to wound, she was not in touch with it. I think it came out of unawareness. I don't think Ami is wrong to wall herself off from having that pain added to her grief. I would too.
(I have found that under certain alignments of things, certain stresses, I am forced to own that I am also capable of cruelty. Iow, a desire to wound. I sure don't like it, but it's a part of my humanity. Usually, for me, if I have done something like that--it's usually verbal--I don't see it as cruelty at the time. In the moment it's a kind of foggy impulse, a brief compulsion. Afterward, I'm in shock. Horrified.)
I see them both as human, and as good. We can all hold them there.
Thanks for listening...compost at will.
love
Hops
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Thanks Hops for your post.
Much of what you wrote did not resonate with me.
One view of this situation, which I do not think you have seen, is that Carolyn and I have grown close in the last few weeks as well as Ami and I are also very close, which you know.
There are many of conversations I have with Ami and Carolyn off the board which are full of support, respect and care for each other. Ami and Carolyn are both of my friends and both support me.
Given that dynamic or limited perspective it feels a bit strange for you to just step in the situation on this thread.
And my very first thought when I saw your post to me was "uh-oh watch out, here comes the criticism disguised as concern
However, I appreciate the time you took to express ideas.
Peace,
Lise
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(I have found that under certain alignments of things, certain stresses, I am forced to own that I am also capable of cruelty. Iow, a desire to wound. I sure don't like it, but it's a part of my humanity. Usually, for me, if I have done something like that--it's usually verbal don't see it as cruelty at the time. In the moment it's a kind of foggy impulse, a brief compulsion. Afterward, I'm in shock. Horrified.)
Hi Hops actually I do have to say I resonate with this part very well.
I am capable of great cruelty too and I have wounded others out of ignorance, impulsiveness, old anger, vindictiveness, feelings of threat, shame, etc....I have wounded many people in my life. I also have had to face those I have wounded to express my regret over my wrong, acknowledge their pain and express my desire to not harm them again, even the N's in my life. This I have done.
Healing from and N parent is a catch 22. We need lot's of love and acceptance in order to cope with our own undeveloped emotionally wounded and sometimes impulsive child. When others continue to make you feel ashamed, out of there own shame, it just perpetuated the feelings of shame.
Lise
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I would like to apologize once again to Ami for my boorishness. Again, I am sorry, Ami. And I don't expect to be able to convince you of anything re: my intent. The fact is, yes, a person can live as long as I have on this earth and be that ignorant.
Thought I was doing a good thing, to clear the air, after my lengthy silence. I was wrong.
GS, thank you very much for the article you posted and for your comments. Yes, I was caught up short... shocked, actually... but now I can see it - and in part that is due to your thoughtful expression of concern here.
Hops and Lise, thank you for seeing my heart through all the muck I've thrown onto myself.
Hops, you wrote: I have a feeling Carolyn was trying to share something very difficult and if there was a desire to wound, she was not in touch with it. I think it came out of unawareness. I don't think Ami is wrong to wall herself off from having that pain added to her grief. I would too.
If there was a desire to wound, I am still not in touch with it. The very fact that I am not in touch with feelings in this particular, isolated incident is the very reason why I never spoke up about it before. And yes, this was very difficult to share... and self-seeking. That is why I'm apologizing.
And I agree that Ami is not wrong to wall herself off from having pain added to her grief.
As far as Lise's interjections here... I've appreciated them - that means I have learned from them - and I don't think they've done a bit of harm.
Carolyn
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(I have found that under certain alignments of things, certain stresses, I am forced to own that I am also capable of cruelty. Iow, a desire to wound. I sure don't like it, but it's a part of my humanity. Usually, for me, if I have done something like that--it's usually verbal don't see it as cruelty at the time. In the moment it's a kind of foggy impulse, a brief compulsion. Afterward, I'm in shock. Horrified.)
Hi Hops actually I do have to say I resonate with this part very well.
I am capable of great cruelty too and I have wounded others out of ignorance, impulsiveness, old anger, vindictiveness, feelings of threat, shame, etc....I have wounded many people in my life. I also have had to face those I have wounded to express my regret over my wrong, acknowledge their pain and express my desire to not harm them again, even the N's in my life. This I have done.
Healing from and N parent is a catch 22. We need lot's of love and acceptance in order to cope with our own undeveloped emotionally wounded and sometimes impulsive child. When others continue, out of there own shame, to make you feel ashamed -- it just perpetuated the feelings of shame.
Lise
Amen.
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((((((((((((Carolyn))))))))))))))
Hope I didn't hurt you, dear.
much love,
Hops
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((((((((((((Carolyn))))))))))))))
Hope I didn't hurt you, dear.
much love,
Hops
(((((((Hops))))))) no, you didn't hurt me. I hurt myself, by not having the horse-sense to shut up.
I simply did not want to pretend.
The last time I spilled something like this, on a much smaller scale, was when I said something to you about craving a mother's love... it just popped out. Don't think I ever went back to that remark afterward, but it has haunted me a bit since... and I want you to know that I'm sorry if I hurt you with it. My regulator does not operate too well, at times... but that's more about assuming that my intent is clear than any desire to inflict harm. When I'm truly angry and upset, I won't say anything. Ever.
Careless, thoughtless, insensitive... yes, at times. But not cruel.
Carolyn
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Oh heavens, you've never hurt me, hon.
Don't remember the specific post but DO remember I had a lightbulb one day and knew I feel safe with you.
I learned so much from getting a grip on my kneejerk scared-of-Christians stuff here, and you've been a huge part of that, Carolyn. I'm grateful.
love,
Hops
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Thanks, Hops... I'm glad to know that and only wish that I'd asked before.
I would like to not be so relationally clumsy, but I'm not there yet.
Having lived in a virtual cave for so many years, I found a persona of sorts online - - and promptly met N.
One thing's for sure... he left me persona-free.
With all my heart, I appreciate your patience with me. I don't feel shamed by you... ever.
And I've almost overcome my knee-jerk fear of agnostics, although some Christians still frighten me.
Love,
Carolyn
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Lise,
Why does it matter which one it was? That really has no relevance to the general point, does it? Ami
Hi Ami -- from my perspective it has relevance but my perspective is besides the point, it is not important, sorry if I offended you in asking the question.
Lise
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Lise,
Why does it matter which one it was? That really has no relevance to the general point, does it? Ami
Hi Ami -- from my perspective it has relevance but my perspective is besides the point, it is not important, sorry if I offended you in asking the question.
Lise
This is by far the most important lesson I've learned here... again, thanks to the posts by Gaining Strength, as well as Lise's example...
that especially in situations such as this, where wounding is deep and pain can be inexpressible, my own perspective is beside the point.
Again, Ami, I am so sorry about my insensitivity and lack of forethought. I cannot promise to be perfect in my interactions and words, but I am certainly making it my priority to be most thoughtful about my words from now on.
Carolyn
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GS, thank you very much for the article you posted and for your comments.
Thank is very gracious of you Certain Hope. Thank you.
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GS, thank you very much for the article you posted and for your comments.
Thank is very gracious of you Certain Hope. Thank you.
You're welcome, GS. I did not feel shamed by you, or judged... only reproved, and I needed that reproof, deserved it.
Thank you.
Carolyn