Heist on Something....

[lighter]

Hops:

It takes bravery to speak about things we fear....things that could change our life, crush a hope.... opportunity, I ME.

You're stepping up, and using your voice.  B is listening and responding.  This is huge, for so many reasons.  And B might have to sulk and examine his inner world a bit.... I imagine it won't be comfortable, which is the opposite of what he seeks from you.  He seems to be game, and that is hopeful.

 As Amber hit on, B is rushing connection without building trust and connection.  For me that speaks if needing and grasping at anything to stuff in his loneliness hole.

  Want is more about two people, who can examine their motivation and emotions as you say, choosing one another with a LTR in mind.  You're in that space.  B is facing it for the first time.  He may look at you as a treasure....as a a valued resource, if he's wise, IME.  I've seen CEO right winged men embrace that new piece in their lives.  As I said, my mother did it slowly with my step father, the emotional came later in other words. I think I'm saying big change takes time, and my mother was a very strong personality.  She wanted and felt entitled to what she wanted.

I worry that you're desire for peace, and allergies to conflict might eventually silence you in this relationship.  You refer to B as someone you felt was important... I'm afraid he'll use his words, and maybe go between overt kindness to moodiness, denying you comfort if true connection, hope he can be a good enough partner.....trauma bonding is such a familiar dance, isn't it?  Is that a bit of what's going on here, and....if it is....is it something he IS, or something he's doing at a stressful time he would change if only he could?

I'm trying to say that B might jump sideways on his way to understanding,and settling into wanting not needing so much.

He might not ever budge from his position, just posture as he continues toward a set goal he doesn't understand or have the ability to value, beyond what he can get when he wants it. 

I guess you're trying to meet in the middle somewhere so neither if you feels diminished.  You certainly want to approach a guilded cage with care, even if you make that choice, IME. 

In the meantime, expect B to struggle a bit and require space to thrash without being judged.  Growth is painful.  Reflection brings clarity.  He might be a bit all over the page for a bit, and you'll pay attention.  Is he reflecting, or just thrashing?  Is he growing or just trying to find the path of least resistance?  Is he resentful that small words and efforts aren't clearing his way, it is he softening, truly, to you and your needs?

  People thrash.  The thrashing isn't always  indicative of where we end up, IME.

Lighter

[Hopalong]

Lighter, thank you.
I'm pretty stunned by how incisively and clearly you see not just broad behavior patterns, but nuances. And can articulate them for another.

This is so valuable to me. I need to read and re-read.

You are expansive and compassionate toward his humanity and at the same time, alert to his attitude toward mine--offering me potential benchmarks to notice. I appreciate that greatly. I just hope I am smart and intuitive enough to find a healthy balance between wariness, weariness, self-defense, self-sabotage, and the yearnings of the heart. I am NOT interested in power struggle and sometimes with B., it feels that way. I get it. It may be his life's story. But hopefully, he may be one of those older men who's ready for the kind of pivot you describe.

I'm especially grateful for what you said about noticing whether he's really interested in my needs or just grinding forward to make obstacles disappear so he can get what he wants asap.

(One blunt friend emailed me that it's "unfair" for me to hold out on B. as in her --and her husband's!-- opinion I've known him long enough. She is a brilliant, odd duck and I decided to be amused, not offended. I hadn't asked her to pass along her hubby's opinion about that! Lordy....it's actually funny. But also made me a little embarrassed. She's one of the two friends who's met him. She's the econ professor and World Bank consultant...a hugely accomplished Type A+++ woman. But wow...I told her I realized I'd opened the door but think I should keep my private decision making more private for now. Changed the subject to our upcoming lunch.

"Heist" is apt. I'm SO glad I have this safe space to talk about anything!!!)

Wow and wow again. Thank you!

Humbly,
Hops

[Hopalong]

PS -- Another true reason I'm not interested in power struggle (which some see as primally positive, a test, a vital exercise, etc) is that I am a coward. I embrace my cowardice. As a child I was so empathetic and sensitive that I could hardly bear being in the world.

Example, probably not terribly original for a sensitive type: From my first glimpse of it in childhood onward, I loathed football on sight. Simple reason -- it was violent. All these boys were crashing into each other and the collisions were obviously one point of the game. As a small, I saw it as, they're TRYING to hurt each other. As a larger, well maybe that's not what they're thinking but nonetheless, it's obviously what they're doing.

So I've been eager to see the film Concussion, just watched it on Amazon last night. Spent the morning (hello, internet rabbit holes) reading fantastic articles in GQ about the pathologist who discovered it and all the ramifications, player stories, the science, the NFL's loathsome initial response, the impact of money, and the blood-lust of the American public.

Very validating. Sort of in a similar way that all of a sudden, Americans are feminists now! Amazing articles on sexual harrassment -- some crude and over-reaching, some sex panic, and many many more, imo, profoundly vulnerable/powerful stories from women explaining what it feels like to be over-ridden. How it affects your sense of self.

I'm sure a lot of that is echoing in my personal experience now. It's an amazing time and I'm going to try to see the good in this onslaught of awakening. It's cultural and personal and quite surprising to me how the two are dancing simultaneously right now.

xo
Hops

[Twoapenny]

Lighter, thank you.
I'm pretty stunned by how incisively and clearly you see not just broad behavior patterns, but nuances. And can articulate them for another.

This is so valuable to me. I need to read and re-read.

You are expansive and compassionate toward his humanity and at the same time, alert to his attitude toward mine--offering me potential benchmarks to notice. I appreciate that greatly. I just hope I am smart and intuitive enough to find a healthy balance between wariness, weariness, self-defense, self-sabotage, and the yearnings of the heart. I am NOT interested in power struggle and sometimes with B., it feels that way. I get it. It may be his life's story. But hopefully, he may be one of those older men who's ready for the kind of pivot you describe.

I'm especially grateful for what you said about noticing whether he's really interested in my needs or just grinding forward to make obstacles disappear so he can get what he wants asap.

(One blunt friend emailed me that it's "unfair" for me to hold out on B. as in her --and her husband's!-- opinion I've known him long enough. She is a brilliant, odd duck and I decided to be amused, not offended. I hadn't asked her to pass along her hubby's opinion about that! Lordy....it's actually funny. But also made me a little embarrassed. She's one of the two friends who's met him. She's the econ professor and World Bank consultant...a hugely accomplished Type A+++ woman. But wow...I told her I realized I'd opened the door but think I should keep my private decision making more private for now. Changed the subject to our upcoming lunch.

"Heist" is apt. I'm SO glad I have this safe space to talk about anything!!!)

Wow and wow again. Thank you!

Humbly,
Hops

Bleurgh, I hate the way sex is seen as a power struggle or a bargaining tool that women 'hold on' to and men constantly try to get.  I get that your friend is probably well intentioned but sex is different for different people and for some people it's much more about emotional intimacy and vulnerability than it is about the physical act itself.  Personally I am glad you've not gone against your own wishes and slept with him, Hops.  Reading through what you've written I can see two very different scenarios with B.  In the first he is a sweet man, rather set in his ways and struggling to work his way through dating/relationships/later years in life after losing his wife and perhaps struggling a little to keep pace with your (quite advanced) emotional intelligence and your huge heart that you wear bravely on your sleeve and are willing to offer him, providing he meets certain standards   On the other, it could be that his disappointment and annoyance at you talking about your friends indicates a controlling nature (that may get worse), his difficulties in verbalising how he feels and picking up on how you feel may indicate self centredness and a lack of interest in others, his willingness to concede to comments that you make may, as Lighter says, be him smoothing the waters to get what he wants quicker.  I think we are all hoping it's the first scenario!  But equally you've had your heart broken enough times to know the second is possible and it is eminently sensible to hold back until you feel completely comfortable - however many weeks, months or even years that takes.  And yes, best to shut the door on that conversation with that particular friend!  Lol xx

[Hopalong]

THANK YOU, ((((Tupp)))). Yegods, this is heartening and supportive in the deepest definition of the term.

Not to mention apt, precise, compellingly comforting in its reality. I am so grateful for reality. I am such a fuzz-head in so many ways in my lazy, ADD-distracted, rabbit-hole escapist daily life that it's been very difficult to focus the lens. With you all observing and commenting, I feel as though I have Company. In the realest sense of company. Having a company. Not marching alone.

This really, really helps me do that better:

I can see two very different scenarios with B.  In the first he is a sweet man, rather set in his ways and struggling to work his way through dating/relationships/later years in life after losing his wife and perhaps struggling a little to keep pace with your (quite advanced) emotional intelligence and your huge heart that you wear bravely on your sleeve and are willing to offer him, providing he meets certain standards   On the other, it could be that his disappointment and annoyance at you talking about your friends indicates a controlling nature (that may get worse), his difficulties in verbalising how he feels and picking up on how you feel may indicate self centredness and a lack of interest in others, his willingness to concede to comments that you make may, as Lighter says, be him smoothing the waters to get what he wants quicker.  I think we are all hoping it's the first scenario!  But equally you've had your heart broken enough times to know the second is possible and it is eminently sensible to hold back until you feel completely comfortable - however many weeks, months....

I can't thank you enough because this feels so anchored. So real.

And now off I go to the lion's den, errr, the sweet man's lovely house in the country...for a long afternoon/evening of what I HOPE will be great talk, savvy observation, undefensive affection, pleasant boundaries held in a light and generous-hearted way.... Hope is nice. Paying attention is nicer. I am clearly ambivalent but also looking forward to seeing him.

He just called to say he hiked 5 miles and his knees hurt and needs a shower. So I offered to come a bit later. My grand conversation plan may be sidelined if he falls asleep. And it'd probably be a relief. We'll see!

(I wanted to say, oh that's good I'll be coming a bit later, so you won't be fantasizing about wandering around in your skivvies...but refrained....) 

xxxooo
Hops

[Hopalong]

Evening went well! He told me he understood I'd felt "threatened" by his behavior (I said not threatened, but I did feel pressured). And he said he was not going to push or press about physical intimacy but let me indicate what I was into/ready for. I was so relieved and said Thank you! Then talked a little bit about how that energy feels nicest to me if it's mutual, and there's space for both to reach out to dance in it. But if it's coming from one side like a fire hose, my natural instinct is to retreat.

I think he heard me. He was true to his word, enough that we snuggled on the couch through a whole movie without me feeling he was about to jump at me. Kiss, hug, handhold, backscratch, and it just felt calmer. I relaxed more than I ever have though I still was a little jumpy.

He would now and then mention how difficult it was to restrain himself, but not in a snide way. I am baffled at how overwhelmed with desire he appears. It would be flattering but I needed him to contain it better to give me time to get used to him and so forth. Just as Tupp said, as much time as I need. I am relieved to have spent a long stretch of time with him where he didn't amp it up.

We went to dinner at a bistro near his house and it was very pleasant. And he's come up with a nice idea for a weekend getaway, so I think we'll probably do that soon.

Still felt very eager to get home, retreat here to my cozy independent space. It's just a massive, huge, big, large adjustment -- having had my privacy (sometimes in anguish but not always) and the freedom Amber talked about -- since 1995.

Hoo boy. This is hard work and is taking courage but for tonight, I'm still hanging in.

Thanks to you guys.

xxoo
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

Another angle to this gem of a problem...
but I am aware that I'm probably going to be clumsy with words about it. (Still a major WIP for me.) Please bear with me; I know what I'm trying to say - I just don't rightly know how to say it concisely. So, back to telling stories on myself - by way of example.

Somewhere in the process of finally getting most of Twiggy's trauma processed down into a numbered item on a medical history form... I discovered that even with my trusted gentle lover-husband... I was starting to freak out about sex. Oh, I was still very much interested and enjoyed myself - but there was something startlingly scary about it. Moments of abject terror. After all these years. Made me want to pull back, stop, get enough distance to analyze it under a microscope. Conundrum city.

I knew the problem was completely mine; something in my head/feelings that hadn't been completely totally addressed yet. Throw in the physical changes with menopause and trying to make changes in a "comfortable & comforting routine" with Mike, with new instructions... and well, that part of our relationship went to hell in a handbasket right before he got sick and KNEW he was getting sick (without sharing that with me of course.) Maybe that part of me - the intuitive, sensitive part - WAS picking up on this reality... but those are never at the verbal level, when I get a "knowing"... and my reaction was a precursor to major loss. It's hard to tell, even now. It could've just been some unprocessed fragment of Twiggy's experience too.

Well, that was just a MESS for me to wrap my head around and poor Mike, patient though he always was with me, was a lot more sexually driven as his way of expressing intimacy than even I was. And he couldn't help but take some of that personally - even though I reassured him repeatedly, that he shouldn't because I didn't consider it anything he was/wasn't doing that was "wrong". The fear would just pop up anywhere anytime without warning.

It never did get resolved between us.

But I've had more time to look at it and what I think is that sometimes, things like this solidify in our minds/feelings and become roadblocks on the path of change. That my reaction - that odd disembodied and totally irrelevant, irrational fear - caused me to act & feel certain ways that totally mucked things up. Like perhaps a pattern that seems to take on a life of it's own - and that we give belief to - belief in it's reality, instead of a passing feeling based on past life experience. And it stops the flow of the present moment; gums up the works in our heads... and being with someone else. We immediately react and shift our center of gravity into different perceptions, feelings and awareness states.

I can't really call it bad - because usually that reaction was what kept me safe numerous times. Or it was perhaps a bit of the dissociation reflex from Twiggy's experience. But I know it's damned inconvenient and frustrating - not just for me; it causes confusion and uncertainty and doubt in a relationship. I honestly dunno after looking at it for a long time now - what it really is or was.

So, I wonder... if there is a pattern in my feeling-mind that's been invested with enough energy that is part of the problem with me. That gets in the way of me just relaxing, going with the flow, or being COMFORTABLE with saying... wait, let's do something different - try this instead - or even, wow - whatever THAT was, I'm just not in the mood anymore. Comfortable with the idea of letting a gate into the fence of a boundary between "I and Thou"... to allow myself; give myself permission to experience that intimacy. To PLAY.

Maybe the fear is one of enmeshment. And it would make sense to a feeling-rational mind... for a fear to come up at such a time. Especially as much as I have spent in that kind of "intimacy" in my life and once I did get past it... any and all whiffs of it (including real intimacy) put the fear of God into me.

I dunno for sure. Just talking this one out because from things you've said Hops, I was seeing some fragments of some parts of the same thing. I've been fumbling around in the dark on this one for awhile - so I could just be seeing things in what you've described, too. And have only just now (above) connected a fear of enmeshment with my intimacy reticence.

Comments? Insights? Is this a totally wacked out theory that I've dreamed up to keep monkey mind busy? LOL.

[lighter]

((((Amber))))

Reading your post makes me feel protective for you.  I have no idea how your past experience wouldn't show up in your life.  Of course it did.  I'm glad dear sweet Mike was a part of your world.

Your post did bring up some poignant moments that might apply to Hops' situation.

When my B came along he was very in my face, hold my beer while I went to the bathroom, ask me out all the time, lean into my space....moving faster than I could process.

I forget exactly how it happened, but I let off a verbal warning shot, and instead of giving me more space, he inexplicably closed more distance.  I said true things that made him go away for good.

That gave me plenty of space, and I used it to reflect.  I missed B, his kindness, his unwavering.... whatever it was going to be.  My instincts said to bring him back.

I wrote a letter explaining why I needed the space I'd asked for, and he was still clutching it when I opened my front door.  He'd flown to me after reading it, and it felt just the right thing to do.

From that day he was very careful about not rushing me, which provided the space for
Me
To
Close
The
Distance.

And when I did, for I surely did, he was all....
"What are you in?  Wait a minute?"

Adorable, and he had my heart particularly after he heard my response....and you might guess it Hops.. .

I wanted to make out like teenagers.
::Grin::

His stress melted, and what you called slow joy did begin.

Looking back, B was a driven type A CEO type, but his imperative in relationship was to do too much, protect and please.  I'm not gonna lie.  So was mine.  I recognized something had to change, and I consciously made the decision to get used to being cared for, and receiving.

It was the best decision I ever made.   Soon enough, there was a cadence to our life that felt right, and I was a very happy woman in a reciprocal relationship with a peer.   Not King Baby, or a taker/ exploiter personality, which happens sometimes to those of us who feel we need to prove our worth, IME.   

What aI notice about the takers....they tend to make comments designed to tear us down, sometimes very small comments at first, or large sometimes.  I've heard both versions.

"I'm not attracted to you anymore, why is that?". Or some such accusations, as though it was my fault, or at all true, which wasn't the case.  There was obvious lust, and plenty of it.

Particularly when spoken by a man, who couldn't engage in sex bc he reached nervana on approach several times.....was..... inexplicably.... amusing to me.  I wasn't able to identify cruel manipulative behavior when I saw it, heard it.  I don't know what was wrong with me, but I got it right with B.

B cared for his mother, and did kind things for her.  The cruel little men didn't.  How does your B speak about his mother...lost wife?

There's a difference between men who lean in to protect and cherish, and men who take and exploit for pleasure, IME.

I'm afraid I don't have much to offer in between, except perhaps that sometimes things aren't what they seem.  Sometimes they're much worse, or better, than you can possibly imagine. 

What is your B's imperative?

Does he want to be there for you, protect you, grow old with you?

Or is he worried about made up things, designed to chip away at your self esteem?  There's evil in that.  I've seen it up close, and made the mistake twice.

I'm glad you had an ok time last night,Hops.

Lighter

[Twoapenny]

Evening went well! He told me he understood I'd felt "threatened" by his behavior (I said not threatened, but I did feel pressured). And he said he was not going to push or press about physical intimacy but let me indicate what I was into/ready for. I was so relieved and said Thank you! Then talked a little bit about how that energy feels nicest to me if it's mutual, and there's space for both to reach out to dance in it. But if it's coming from one side like a fire hose, my natural instinct is to retreat.

I think he heard me. He was true to his word, enough that we snuggled on the couch through a whole movie without me feeling he was about to jump at me. Kiss, hug, handhold, backscratch, and it just felt calmer. I relaxed more than I ever have though I still was a little jumpy.

He would now and then mention how difficult it was to restrain himself, but not in a snide way. I am baffled at how overwhelmed with desire he appears. It would be flattering but I needed him to contain it better to give me time to get used to him and so forth. Just as Tupp said, as much time as I need. I am relieved to have spent a long stretch of time with him where he didn't amp it up.

We went to dinner at a bistro near his house and it was very pleasant. And he's come up with a nice idea for a weekend getaway, so I think we'll probably do that soon.

Still felt very eager to get home, retreat here to my cozy independent space. It's just a massive, huge, big, large adjustment -- having had my privacy (sometimes in anguish but not always) and the freedom Amber talked about -- since 1995.

Hoo boy. This is hard work and is taking courage but for tonight, I'm still hanging in.

Thanks to you guys.

xxoo
Hops

I'm glad you had a nice evening, Hops.

Something that has become apparent to me recently (in light of all these sexual assault/harassment allegations that keep coming) are that there are a lot of men who have been programmed/conditioned/whatever you want to call it, to believe that women (a) all want the same thing and (b) are very focused on their appearance/sexual prowess/needing to feel wanted.  I was talking to someone just recently (male friend) and he was talking about paying a woman a compliment on her appearance and how he felt he couldn't do that anymore (unwanted attention).  I said "well why don't you compliment her on the way she does her job or how she handles her kids or parks the car or whatever else it is you notice about her - something that isn't related to her looks?" and he was dumbfounded - it had honestly never occurred to him that a woman might not actually give a stuff about how she looks and might be much more into the way she is (a byproduct of our superficial, appearance driven society, I fear!).

So while I'm not suggesting for a minute that B isn't overwhelmed with desire for you (why wouldn't he be!) it did occur to me that maybe part of it is just that societal conditioning that women want to be told they're attractive, desirable and so on.  Maybe he's still in that loop (particularly as it doesn't sound like he's dated for fifty or so years )  I don't mean that as a criticism of him, it's just something I've noticed in men I know when we've been talking about men and women and that whole dating/relationship conundrum.

I'm glad you had a good evening.  I'm glad you're challenging him - not in a confrontational way, but I bet he hasn't met many ladies like you and I expect it's a very refreshing change for him xx

[sKePTiKal]

I recognized something had to change, and I consciously made the decision to get used to being cared for, and receiving.

ding! ding! ding!  That's a big piece of the puzzle, Lighter. The reciprocity of that in a relationship was very unusual for me. I really didn't have any experience of that until Mike. I was programmed to take care of my mom & brother; later programmed to take care of a man & the kids. Never entered my mind to ask what it would be like for someone to take of me, sometimes.

I kind of disagree with the idea in Tupp's observation about compliments re: looks being "off limits". Especially as we get older. It helped me relax a lot that Mike would let loose the casual "hubba-hubba" or tell me "Wow.... you look hot!". I relaxed even more, when I noticed him being protective of me when other men would also make that kind of attention known. (That kind of thing isn't automatically a red flag re: possessiveness.) Sorta a little smile and nod in their direction - yeah, she's with ME; you're too late. We worry a lot about what age does to our bodies - even if it's subconscious. So the compliments are needed feedback. Total silence on that topic - after I've spent 2 hrs primping - would make me wonder if he hadn't even noticed. (Which is why guys these days are basically resorting to more feral relationships with women, IMO. No one seems to know what the rules are and they commit a foul, no matter what they do when a woman can't just say "Thanks" and be secure enough that she's not seeing it as an "assault".)

But then, I readily admit I'm a "hot mess" on this topic... and until I sort out the sexual conflict thing I described above, I probably won't be venturing into any relationships or dating or whatever, because it just wouldn't be fair to some poor guy.

[Hopalong]

Absolutely true for me, Amber. I don't think you're a "hot mess" at all. I believe strongly there's always a LOGIC behind emotions and reactions, even when they are frustrating or baffling at the time you're weathering them.

You gave Mike so much; I am absolutely positive there is no debt unpaid. You are very reflective and you honor him in how you think it through.

I agreed so much also with two things you pointed out: The difficulty in SPEAKING, in the moment, what one feels and needs. (Don't get me going on female socialization to not know how, or be on a delayed timer about it.) And also, fear of enmeshment. That is a huge thing for me, because the sorrow of loneliness has been equally matched over time by the satisfactions of freedom.

To have this well-intentioned man smiling and pressing his way into My Space, even though I've made a conscious decision that if other signals and signs and sensations tell me if I don't want a lonely old age I do need to accept that wanting a partner means developing some porosity about My Space -- there is a big huge resistance in myself about it.

One can dream of a seamless, peaceful transition into a new third entity of "We," but in reality it's a jerky, bruising, stumbling process. For me it is. But so far, this day, worth trying. In case of happiness.

Thank you, for your stories and your insights, which put the PT in APT.

love,
Hops

[Hopalong]

...there was a cadence to our life that felt right, and I was a very happy woman in a reciprocal relationship with a peer.   Not King Baby, or a taker/ exploiter personality, which happens sometimes to those of us who feel we need to prove our worth....

Lighter, this should be on billboards in every town. I am so happy you had that kind of a relationship with your B. I don't know when/how that went away, or if he was an early love, but I'm glad you had it, because you have an internal model that is very strong for what is not just acceptable, but good.

I'd buy a round to have been a fly on the wall for the dialogue you mentioned. The verbal thing that put an unequivocal boundary in place, with no ambiguity. (And how amazing he responded, and became your teenager....)

Your spotting sly put-downs and criticisms as designed to undermine and huge flags of near-evil resonate with me completely. I am not yet sure, due to not quite enough time spent nor post-honeymoon-manners spats sorted or things experienced together...whether B resorts to that or has that in his character.

I promise, if I hear something like that, I really believe I'll see it and extricate. I could not agree with you more what those casual, toneless put-downs (that sound neutral in the tone of voice) really convey. Cruelty. And if that surfaced I would run like a rabbit, not remain to debate.

Those kinds of remarks make me shudder, and I'm grateful I have at least THAT self-protective reflex.

Hops

[Hopalong]

I hear you about compliments, Tupp. It's hard to sort out when they're meant as enthusiastic affirmations of one's appeal versus knee-jerk judgments (even positive remarks can read as garden-variety judgments -- it so depends on the tone and context) about one's ranking on the social scale of female acceptability.

B regarded me the other night (the night that ended weirdly) and stated in a flat kind of way, "You look about 60." I really had nothing to say in response. Didn't feel interested, didn't particularly like the remark but wasn't insulted. Didn't perceive it as a compliment because I don't care. Just thought, "Oh, that's uninteresting."

It did not matter to me one bit what female-appearance-age-number he had at that moment strolling through his brain. (It was a boring and meaningless thing to say. It was...assessing --perhaps trying to compliment but in that moment, didn't feel that way--a commodity.) I didn't take offense because I didn't perceive it as personal. I think it was just a result of him living as a powerful, successful, male in this culture for many many years. Sorry for that, not my job to fix.

I'll never undo all his conditioning so I figure it's a pick your battles moment. I wasn't interested in that one because it belongs to him. I'm generally fine about my age and appearance and if he wants to run a spreadsheet about it, he can waste his own time. We have things to unpack when they affect US. But that was like a moment of out-loud inner monologue that only revealed a weakness in his thinking, imo. (If he makes a similar remark, I will tell him simply that I'd rather he kept any other-than-positive assessments of my appearance to himself, and I'll offer the same.)

I remember a GOOD moment I had with a narcissist BF when he made a critical remark about me having a "back problem" in the sense that this was on an invisible list of reasons I likely wouldn't qualify as "the one" for him. I remember with pride (lesson learned late) getting up immediately, and saying to him clearly, "You never, ever criticize someone for something they cannot help. Anymore than I should criticize you for going bald or having the after-effects of prostate surgery."

I was containing myself; I was angry. Because that after-effect was exactly what you'd imagine, and it would never have occurred to me to fling that, which he could not help, in his face. That was the moment I realized he was cruel and I viscerally wanted no more to do with him. I was grateful.

HOO-AHH!

Hops

[Twoapenny]

I hear you about compliments, Tupp. It's hard to sort out when they're meant as enthusiastic affirmations of one's appeal versus knee-jerk judgments (even positive remarks can read as garden-variety judgments -- it so depends on the tone and context) about one's ranking on the social scale of female acceptability.

B regarded me the other night (the night that ended weirdly) and stated in a flat kind of way, "You look about 60." I really had nothing to say in response. Didn't feel interested, didn't particularly like the remark but wasn't insulted. Didn't perceive it as a compliment because I don't care. Just thought, "Oh, that's uninteresting."

It did not matter to me one bit what female-appearance-age-number he had at that moment strolling through his brain. (It was a boring and meaningless thing to say. It was...assessing --perhaps trying to compliment but in that moment, didn't feel that way--a commodity.) I didn't take offense because I didn't perceive it as personal. I think it was just a result of him living as a powerful, successful, male in this culture for many many years. Sorry for that, not my job to fix.

I'll never undo all his conditioning so I figure it's a pick your battles moment. I wasn't interested in that one because it belongs to him. I'm generally fine about my age and appearance and if he wants to run a spreadsheet about it, he can waste his own time. We have things to unpack when they affect US. But that was like a moment of out-loud inner monologue that only revealed a weakness in his thinking, imo. (If he makes a similar remark, I will tell him simply that I'd rather he kept any other-than-positive assessments of my appearance to himself, and I'll offer the same.)

I remember a GOOD moment I had with a narcissist BF when he made a critical remark about me having a "back problem" in the sense that this was on an invisible list of reasons I likely wouldn't qualify as "the one" for him. I remember with pride (lesson learned late) getting up immediately, and saying to him clearly, "You never, ever criticize someone for something they cannot help. Anymore than I should criticize you for going bald or having the after-effects of prostate surgery."

I was containing myself; I was angry. Because that after-effect was exactly what you'd imagine, and it would never have occurred to me to fling that, which he could not help, in his face. That was the moment I realized he was cruel and I viscerally wanted no more to do with him. I was grateful.

HOO-AHH!

Hops

I didn't mean it to sound like compliments about physical stuff are bad, just that, as you didn't seem comfortable with hearing he could barely restrain himself, it may be that he's got that mindset of 'women need to know they're pretty or they can't cope' (which I think is something our consumer driven society hammers into all of us from an early age to make us buy skin cream ).  Kind of trying to give him an out - I'm hoping this all turns out peachy I get what you say about not being interested in comments about the age you look or your appearance in general; I must admit I tend to take comments about physical appearance with a pinch of salt because I think they're easy to make and can easily be insincere - whereas if someone compliments me on something I've done or a way I've coped with something, for example, I feel euphoric because I feel like they're really getting me - getting to know me, understanding me, seeing what I do and noticing it's not easy.  But like I say, I think we're programmed to focus on the superficial stuff from a young age.  And I have a tendency to over think things (really, Tup, you hide that so well ).  And well done for skipping over that other boyfriend.  A list of reasons you don't measure up - he sounds like a charmer   Zoiks.  Carrie Fisher said something about criticism she received for daring to age over the last thirty years (when the Star Wars film came out) something about youth and beauty aren't achievements, they're just there.  I forget exactly how she phrased it now but she was spot on, in my book xx

[Hopalong]

Yes, he does do some unnecessary "managing" I think. It's like sometimes instead of just saying how he feels, he makes a pronouncement about it. Like, the executive speaks. I dunno, it's just his style. I'm not fishing for or needing a host of compliments. I'm very tuned into the fact that age is doing its job and neither he nor I are going to look like something to alert the media about when we get down to things.

I'd rather keep my focus on the vibes. If they keep growing and are kind and happy most of the time, the rest will be fine. Last night was a big relief because we just relaxed together after a while, like old shoes. It took me a long time to feel some ease but it was a nice feeling when I got there. His decision to give me space made all the difference. A friendly old-shoes with occasional dancing kind of physical relationship is a realistic notion, I think, and the idea doesn't grieve me. I'll enjoy intimacy with him, I hope, but I think the relationship will be built more out of things like movies and trips and just the day to day. I'll find out, one encounter at a time. Still too early to be sure.

I really am bored by anybody who focuses too much on appearance. So far, he hasn't. At our ages, it would just seem silly. I think the happiest older couples have found other things and adventures to focus on too, whereas when I was young, sex was the main event.

This thread has been amazing for me.

xxoo
Hops