Friendship Moments: good or bad

[Twoapenny]

Puppy sounds like he'll be a good distraction if things get intense when your friend visits, Hops

I have found it very difficult to disentangle myself from friends when they're hell bent on staying in whichever loop they're in.  It's different when someone's in a situation they can't get out of - bereavement, for example.  Or if they're working their way through it all and need some help with that.  But watching people self destruct, brush themselves down and go back for more is hard.  Especially when they're in a situation they could walk away from.  But - we've all got our situations to deal with.  Hopefully it will be a nice few days with plenty of puppy fun and poetry.  Maybe not too much of the heavy stuff xx

[Hopalong]

Pup therapy plus poetry sounds like the BEST recipe for my summer, Tupp!

Thanks, hon.

xxoo
hugs
Hops

[Hopalong]

How did you know things WOULD get intense during her visit, Tupp? Psychic!

Overall we've had a very good time, but things went south yesterday. Despite loads of correspondence in advance during which I'd lovingly explained to her that she WOULD be on her own during the mornings (my long-term, upside-down sleep), I had one afternoon where I was so wiped out (after the evening before spent arranging a celebration for her with other poet friends at a winery, which got verrrry complicated because she demanded a reservation in AC which they didn't offer -- we stayed on a huge veranda with fans and the temperature did ease off after about an hour) -- I told her I would also have to rest again during the afternoon.

She basically had a refined tantrum, and began lecturing me on how I'm not NORMAL. I don't have a NORMAL schedule and don't do things the way NORMAL people do, etc etc etc. I asked her gently, "What do you need from me?" and she said "I need COMPANY!" This goes back to her absolute panic about being alone and soothing herself. Unfortunately, by the time she'd lectured me about NORMAL, using the word vehemently about 10 times, I'd had it. I was hurt and angry.

I know she might get bored, stuck here. But I didn't cause the heat wave and she didn't follow up on multiple ideas she'd agreed to before she came: make lunch dates with old friends (she made one), ride the bus (there's a stop a block away), go downtown and enjoy a cafe or the library, etc. She didn't do one thing to cushion herself from the terror of not being with someone (iow, me) at all times.

And when I sat with her for another hour despite how tired I was, she would just play Sodoku or whatever, and I felt like a nanny. She was (horrors) beginning to remind me of my Nmom, who likewise needed a constant audience. And bossy to boot.

I'm saddened by this and afraid our friendship may be winding down. When it's good, her intelligence and empathy have meant a lot to me. But maybe it's really mostly a one-way street.

Or maybe I just can't deal with criticism. Her criticisms aren't unrealistic -- I HAVE gotten into some awful spirals in recent years. I've been very open with her. It's a vulnerability, though, and I feel as though when she doesn't want to face herself, she projects her stuff into others. And has no idea how condescending and controlling she can be. Or, it's the only way she knows how to feel safe. (I guess, too, she was hitting me where it hurts, because my dysfunctional lifestyle is often something I feel bad about. Then again, I live alone and owe nobody else control.)

Ah, well. I hope it heals over time but this was our first big rift. It reminded me of how, when M was frustrated with me, he would go off into a scathing monologue about my faults and just slice, slice, slice. By the tenth time she said "NORMAL" I was ready to blow. And then of course I was too upset to rest anyway.

Wound up driving her to the mountains to see her old house, which I was happy to do, but both Pup and I were beyond exhausted when we got home. She leaves tomorrow and this afternoon we're taking my dear oldest friend to a movie, which should be nice. "Thelma."

Sad hugs,
Hops

[Twoapenny]

Hmph.  Well, my two cents, for what they're worth.

There is nothing at all wrong with your sleep cycle/lifestyle/needs or anything else.  It's sleep, not some bizarre demand you make of other people.  You have your routine and it's what keeps you ticking over, functioning, getting on with what you need and want to do.  It's got sweet bleep bleep to do with anybody else, particularly when you factor in heat, age (I don't mean that in a rude way but we all tire more easily as we get older) and organising/socialising and just having someone else around 24/7.  I get tired after a few hours, you've had days of this.  So all this faff about normal can get in the bin, quite frankly.

Secondly, if we are going to talk about normal, it is not normal for a grown ass woman to be incapable of spending a few hours alone and/or being aware and responsive to someone else's efforts.  There is no reason she couldn't have gone for a walk, watched a film, read a book, wandered off to the library for a bit or anything else.  Not start shouting and being such a spoilt brat.  She sounds like she could have done with a nap herself.

What she should have been doing, in my opinion, is thanking you for everything you've done and organised, including all the driving about and taking care to keep the noise down so you could catch up on some sleep.

Frankly, she sounds horrible.  She dumps on you with the endless husband drama, she behaves like a child when you've already done so much for her over these few days and was she not also the one who got all huffy about you wanting to keep physical space during the pandemic?  I remember something about a six feet apart walk that caused anger, was that her?

I hope you do get to catch up on some sleep once she's gone and that you don't give yourself a hard time about this.  She's behaved very badly, I'm finding myself hoping that pup has a poo in her purse   Lol xx

[Hopalong]

Two cents if they're made of gold, Tupp. Thank you so very much. Sometimes having someone be indignant on your behalf wipes away pain in a nanosecond. Thank you, truly.

She wasn't the one who pitched a hissyfit about my plans for meeting safely in the pandemic (which I was so proud of). That was my other friend who couldn't handle not having everything Just the Way She Wanted.

A beneficial path for me to ponder is WHY have I chosen and/or attracted so many people who are self absorbed in such an overt way into my life? Is it just the obvious thing everyone here knows by heart: how due to Ntraits in one parent or another we were trained to soothe, placate or cater to people who are either very needy or to whom we are so kind that they feel entitled around us, etc?

I know I'm a kind person and very loyal friend. So when somebody unloads on me implying I'm not NORMAL (because in that moment they want something I'm resistant or unable to give) I really feel ... crap feelings.

But. I also think my vaunted sensitivity includes sensitivity to criticism which could be constructive. One thing Poet was going on and on about was how the "normal" routines would improve my life, basically. And about that, she's right. I just had been struggling with other personality nuances that were revealing themselves all week, that I'm sure come from her personal deep, deep insecurities. She was determined to dress up and Make An Entrance at the gathering I'd invited all her local poet friends to. She put on an elegant outfit and looked lovely and I told her so sincerely. Then she went "are you sure?" over and over. THEN she pressured me to also dress up (for her it's very feminine, elegant style that isn't my style). Repeated it. I said "why does it matter to you what I wear?" and she said "do it for me." I was feeling major Nmom vibes. But to placate her I made an effort and looked quite good, if I say so myself. One of the poets asked me if I'd ever modeled, and I said "only naked, for an artist." Jeez.

I know how painfully damaged she was by abuse from an adult male at a village latrine in Africa. I believe it scarred her terribly and she's avoided dealing with it deeply her whole life. Hence, a first husband who beat her (she laughs about it -- laughs about a lot of dark things) and her current partner who's verbally cruel and cutting at least weekly.

So my heart is wrung by all that for her. Just comes moments where I'm tired of the manifestations of how she overcompensates for the damage. Simplest example is one my Nmom had, so pretty triggering -- lecturing. All the time. She issues instructions and flat statements about How Things Will Be Done. I bristle. Etc etc.

Anyhow, first thing I said after our argument was "I still love you." What got me was her not OWNING what she was really talking about. Meaning, I am upset because if you go rest I am stuck alone, to be happy by myself. She said it at first and then veered into all the criticism of me, which she couched as "I'm just concerned for your wellbeing." And she went on and on and my insides were simmering.

In fairness, she does care about me. But I was pissed that she turned it into a critique of me just as M would -- insulating herself from analysing her OWN issues. That made me mad because it felt dishonest. She kept using the "I'm concerned" line and only stopped when I just said bluntly, "I'm not buying it."

Anyway, she has a tolerance for arguing that I just don't, so we'd never live happily together, I think. Good to know. She craves more attention and reassuance and praise than I can deliver.

I do remember once when I talked to my T about her, the T said, "I think she takes too much." Hmmm.

Okay, I'm purged. I really am grateful that y'all read this. I fear it's tedious.

Oh, last thing. I also struggle because of my OWN fear of being alone. I don't have many really close friends. So the prospect of loss makes it harder to deal sometimes. I am an odd duck, and don't live like the local ladies, hardly. Often eccentric, and nearly always unconventional. Hard to find friends who embrace it all.

Except here, maybe! xxxooo

hugs,
Hops

[Twoapenny]

(((((((((((Hopsie))))))))))))  I nodded all the way through and I do get it, especially the loneliness thing.  And I do think one of the hardest things about being in relationships with the sort of people who have this level of neediness is knowing that boundaries and refusals can spark rejection.  And we all know how painful that can be, particularly when we're in situations that mean any kind of loss is keenly felt.  But equally I feel being around people that don't see us is a kind of loneliness.  You're very understanding of her problems and her point of view and yes, we can all take a moment out to see how other people's behaviour might shine a light on our own in some way.  But what about you in all of this?  You just lost Pooch.  Pup sounds gorgeous but he must be exhausting - in a good way, but exhausting none the less.  Your D reappeared not so long ago, that must have raised a tsunami of emotions, all of which you've probably dealt with alone.  You've had your various health problems in recent years, all of which continue to need managing and watching over, you don't have family/partner/endless amounts of money to make your current life easier, you've got your own issues with regard to past abuse, difficult relationships and the general unfairness of life.  You're not in an easy situation yourself and you haven't had an easy life.  I think it's quite miraculous that you needed a nap rather than a vat of gin.  Many people would have opted for the latter.

You don't have to eat all the chocolates in the box, you can just take out the ones you like.  I don't think it's worth trying to 'deal' with this situation because it's just not how she does life.  I think you can be responsive when she wants to talk about poetry, or good films or anything else that's good for you and ignore the next 'woe is me' email about the husband, or the next demand for your time or your energy that doesn't line up with what you want or need.  Enjoy the aspects of the friendship that are nice and avoid situations where the other stuff takes precedence.  She knew your sleep schedule beforehand, if it's problematic for her she should have come up with a way of dealing with it in advance.  She wasn't concerned for you at all, a concerned person would sit down with you in a calm moment to talk about their worries for your situation and ask if there's anything they could do that might help you change things or get some outside support, not berate you for having normal bodily functions, compel you to ignore your own needs and then ignore you for doing so.  That's horribly abusive behaviour.  Don't let your compassion for other people's situations leave you without compassion for yourself, Hopsie xx

[lighter]

((Hops)) the whole way through your description I was thinking.....
1.Hops is buying into the Poet's criticisms and ....
2. The Poet has no ability to follow through with the strategies to keep herself occupied on her own.  She was doing her best, but her needs unhinged her reason.

The fellowship is the round/soft/comforting side of this relationship.

The sharp/cutting/hurtful side is about the wounded and protective parts....of you and Poet. 

Poet seems to have fleas.....I think, from her relationshit with her abusive h...I think.  Or maybe this is all about her AND you placating difficult parents/people from your childhoods?  Familiar and practiced pathways.

Maybe she can't see it?  Nose on her pebbles, and all that.

You can see it.  You can sense the edge of your boundaries, discuss them, attempt remedies proactively.  See it coming.  Watch Poet crumble as her wounded parts lose sight and ability to correct her boat.

I think that's similar to what happens in relationships with her h.....she goes into survival mode and behaves irrationally.  Buys into his criticisms.  Makes bargains with herself to avoid the darkness of feeling abandoned and alone.....even though she has friends and she has you, as her vessel to place and hold darkest truth.....the verbal/emotional abuse and her inability to choose self care and boundaries over verbal/emotional abuse cycle that's her "normal."  Familiar to you both.  Perhaps she sees this as a bargain between you.  Unspoken, but binding?

Terrible thing, but familiar and perhaps it's still in her uncomfortable comfort zone.....but way outside yours, imo. 

I think both of you put up with hurtful parents and weren't allowed boundaries.  Both deal with boundary transgressions as crisis, shifting into survival mode, bc of unfortunate buy into the criticisms, used against you like a surgeon's knife.

If there's no buy in.... the energy/reactivity dissipates and it's easier to see what's really there, IME.

You see more than Poet sees, but it's still her stuff rubbing against your stuff.....raw and reactive.  You can get your nose off the pebbles to see what's there.  You can.

Reviewing boundaries/enforcement of same coupled with clarity around your entitlement will go a long way to define how to handle your relationship going forward with Poet, IME.

You're mixing up caretaking her feelings and the word enmeshed pops up.  It's not your job to caretake her, her feelings, her darkness to preserve connection.

  I wonder if there's some stuck unconscious belief for you...... that's your job....you felt worthy of love IF you kept your end of that horrible bargain in your FOO.  Caretake others at your expense.  That's love. 

Poet, when not in survival mode, wouldn't want you to do that.... wouldn't want you to give up your boundaries and surrender them unto her to preserve her comfort.....I think.

Funny how the world shakes down into those comfortable with boundaries and those not comfortable, IME.  Poet isn't allowed boundaries with her h.  She trounces yours, just the same. 

It doesn't have to be profoundly sad and unchanging.

I wonder what would have happened had you spoken to her as you would speak to a child....with compassionate authority.  No shaming.  I'd like to think both your inner children would be comforted and calmed, a bit.

Our boundaries keep us safe.  It's the best intentions, those outside our lane, confusing and complicating things, IME.  Sometimes we don't need to understand the why of these things, IME.

We take care of what's ours and give others the opportunity to respond/react/tantrum and correct or not correct, but we can't control them or the relationship through sacrifice of self care and boundaries.  That's just repeating old uncomfortable and destructive patterns that never worked, IME.

Time for something new and hopeful.

Modeling healthy boundaries for Poet gives her framework for her relationshit with h, imo.

Sure, it'll be uncomfortable.  It won't be easy to state with compassion, bc of your stuff rubbing against her stuff, but maybe writing it out will help.

If you draw up, far enough, and see the situation with emotional distance it's not so scary, IME.  Nose off pebble isn't an easy maneuver under fire.  You've been under fire, Hops.

Some distance will help and judgement around this should be suspended, IME.  This can be catalyst for clarity and change.

If you view it as bad/threat/proof you're X...
it's not helpful, IME. 

Just see what's really there and try not to judge it, ((Hops.))

Stand in your boundaries and trust you're worthy of them.

Lighter

[sKePTiKal]

Oh Hops. I get it.
It sounds very much like what Hol does to me, especially the "you're not normal". But, being who I am and having lived through what I have, my bent (after registering the hurt, then anger) is to inform her directly that I have designed my current existence to suit myself - it doesn't have to please or satisfy ANYONE else. And while I accept HER perception that I'm "losing it" by not being like her, running 90 miles an hour all the time with peak overthinking an analyzing, I don't believe it's accurate about me.

Take it or leave it, I'm who I want to be, living as I like, and I can rise to occasions or not - as I choose. Tough titties, if she doesn't like it (as we used to say). I get exhausted by too much "other people's stuff" which is why I socialize only occasionally. I don't NEED a growth mindset at my age, I don't need to "become a better person"... I function rather well given all my different hats and incorrigible tendency to bite off more than I can chew sometimes.

I'm not prone to those kinds of criticisms; I push back. Non-conformist to my marrow. No one puts baby in a corner. That probably makes me an insufferable asshole sometimes... but in my perception, that's what I think of Hol's "perceptions" of me, too. I don't think it's normal to have social time spent with one-sided "criticism" and "you should's" either, especially when I didn't complain about a single thing. Just needed some pleasant downtime and cameraderie.

I will never understand this idea that there is "perfect pattern" of being that we all must toil to achieve. I'm OK with not understanding it. I'll be me, make my mistakes, apologize, and go on my merry way knowing "you can please some of the people, some of the time but you can't please ALL the people ALL of the time".

[Hopalong]

Aaaaand, I talked with her about it the next day and explained everything about what was triggering for me about her lecture/rant about "normal"...and she listened respectfully. She also talked more openly than she ever has before about how she gets triggered by massive feelings of abandonment, in situations that aren't about that at all.

It was a very good, respectful and loving conversation. And I just dropped her at the airport and am ready to be blissfully alone again!

As long as there's both learning and love, I can deal better with such dramas. And hopefully wind them down before they build up. It's hard to be psychologically nimble in the middle of a triggering conflict, but even if it's only in the aftermath that I fully figure out my part, it's worth trying for a valuable friend. She appeared just as eager to be cooperative and appreciative today, and I was grateful. We parted comfortably.

(You couldn't pay me to be her housemate, however.)

hugs
Hops

[Hopalong]

Aww, for some reason y'all's replies loaded for me after I posted my last.

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU.

I'm walking on a lovely sun-dappled path in a forest of sisterhood.

You each deserve a point-by-point appreciation which I can't do as I've got a poetry thing coming up, but YOU GET IT. You all get me, you get her, and you get it.

That is worth more than I can express in the moment.

huge grateful hugs,
Hops

[lighter]

I'm glad the visit ended in a good note, Hops.

[Hopalong]

Thanks.
I'm feeling pretty sobered by the things that came out, but trying to hold on to the good (I did react to her rant by stepping it up here).

I just can't emotionally afford to be super invested in a controlling relationship. With anyone. But we're fine, back to email for a year, and I'll let the new boundaries form within myself. Don't need to make any pronouncements about where we are or anything. I just don't think I'll be able to feel the same way, going forward.

I'm still bewildered why this similar scenario has happened with two friends in a year. Answers lie within. I'm going back to see the Sikh soon. Might just go once a month, but I know he'll be a steadying influence.

Yikers. This has all reminded me to go join with UU groups and get out more.
Once the heat wave passes. Going to be 98 this afternoon, ugh.

hugs
Hops

[Twoapenny]

"I just can't emotionally afford to be super invested in a controlling relationship"

I think that might be the bit, Hopsie, because reading it, it sounds like you feel you need to somehow excuse/explain/be excused from being in that situation.  That no-one should ever be in, once, for even a minute.  I think the problem with other people's lives/situations/circumstances is that you can't interact with someone and not be affected by their stuff.  I purposely keep away from women with man drama because I end up feeling like I'm in a relationship with that man, and I don't want him.  I think there's a fine line between being supportive, and being a whipping boy, truthfully.  I do agree that not making a big announcement about it all is the best way to go.  Also glad this all happened near the end of the visit   Would have been an even harder week had it happened at the start.

Good to get out more and see a proactive therapist   Sorry about the heat.  I'll swap you a few degrees, high sixties is maximum for us just now (and that's if you can get out of the wind!).  Lol x

[lighter]

Have you seen the Sikh yet, Hops?

[Hopalong]

Thanks, Tupp. Poet and I are okay, we had a Zoom and I said some things a bit more directly. Told her that when she's frustrated about something, she can lash out, and so forth. Tripped over something political and when I mentioned I intended to watch the debate, she got a condescending smile and said oh yes, you're repeating the XX cable channel talking points, and that pissed me off. I expressed myself without heat and calmly, but by the end of our chat she actually reverted to child state "I love everyone, I don't mean to hurt anyone, I'm just little [Poet] in a corner..." and I felt sad for her and saw vividly how she feels inside, and where all the insecure overcompensation and knowitallitis has taken her. I didn't feel responsible for fixing it, though. She really did get frozen in childhood experiences of feeling abandoned and neglected, for good reasons. And I'm sad for her. She's full of sensitivity and resentment and sometimes I'm not prepared for the lashings to come out (she used to suppress anger around me but as we've known each other longer it's more likely to happen now and then). Anyhow. We're okay, I'm just a little disillusioned and more detached. It's probably better. She told me she wants to work on condescension and I said I need to work on not taking things personally.

I'm not upset about it any more. I've noticed I've been withdrawing from doing almost anything social lately. Don't feel like going anywhere. One loyal friend always asks me to go do long drives or seek out restaurants and I don't wanna. Just being a lump right now.

I have house news! Oh shit, prolly told y'all already. I have a gorgeous new black screen door. Elegant and works with the patio stuff and I'm really happy with it. Did it even though it cost a lot. I'd stared at that flocked, dented, ripped-screen aluminum door for 10 years and wanted to replace it so much. Finally took a bite and did.

hugs
Hops