Author Topic: Shame  (Read 12291 times)

Poppy Seed

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Re: Shame
« Reply #30 on: October 08, 2007, 11:31:31 AM »
Ami,

The main thing for me  see the truth of  my OWN codependent behaviors.  SO COOL!!  Me too....ouch, ouch, painful ouch!  :lol:

And your shame is because your "badness" made her unhappy?  Yes?  Like we had the power to make someone else happy in the first place.  Now that is crazy!!

That is the case with me and my mother.  I wouldn't MAKE her happy.  And so....and so....the shame.  

 she is mad at me for not "making HER happy".

 Are you referring to Maria or your mother??  

And I guess I wonder, if it is your mother, why do you feel shocked?  Is there anything that could shock you coming from her?  Doesn't all the reacting shocked to the new revelations wear you out?  I guess I am wondering why you don't just roll your eyes.

I get the "mean time" thing.  

Pops

ps.  I know things are pretty tame between you and lighter.  Conflict starts with sparks and you two are sparkin'.  I just can't handle anymore board conflict.  It is too taxing on me.  Understand?  And this thread is really kinda important to me.  That's all.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2007, 11:37:58 AM by Poppyseed »

Ami

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Re: Shame
« Reply #31 on: October 08, 2007, 11:44:32 AM »
Poppy,
  Life has conflict. If I express my point of view, that is not" conflict'. If you don't express your self( any one) ,you are codependent. See what I mean?There are two alternatives -- express yourself and have integrity or "stuff it" and be 'nice"
  We HAVE to be able to state our truths. It is good....,not bad. There is really not anything to be afraid of if I(or anyone) nicely makes a request like I did..
  If my style of healing  is not right for you, there is no problem at all in that. Why should we have to see  things the same? 
.That is all each of us must do-- find our own way                  Ami

PS  Are you rolling your eyes about your in laws?. That is why I am not "rolling my eyes".
'
« Last Edit: October 08, 2007, 11:48:31 AM by Ami »
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

lighter

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Re: Shame
« Reply #32 on: October 08, 2007, 12:06:27 PM »

  I just hurt right now. It is a lot to face. I think of people who had to face sexual abuse--how they were just treated as dirty rags. I am facing deep pain,but I am not alone.
  I will just keep trying to face the truth and accept the promise of freedom at the end            Love  Ami




I'm confused Ami.

You're bouncing around between your mother, Maria and now sexually abused people and I'm not able to follow.

In your quote below.... you say:

"I guess what I am trying to say,in a nice way, is that if you are trying to tell me some version of 'Go out and do something and you will feel better", I would prefer that you do not respond to my posts on these subjects."

You don't have to say that nicely.... you can say it any way you want.

What I wanted you to hear was....."go out and apply some of these lessons you're learning, to your life."

I didn't say just go out and repeat what you've already done in the past.


I provide my actual words so you can see that I'm not saying "get over it."
My quote was:  



"Why not and can you not find something that takes you outside your head for a while.....

 focuses you on activities that lift you up and carry into your normal daily activities as catalyst?

Time to broaden your horizons, IMO.  

Reading self help books is great, necessary.... wise and we can use that new information.

Now you need to apply it IRL."



You may assume that all emotional growth takes place inside the head.....

that no 'real' progress can be made by applying new information or making mindful decisions outside our comfort zones.

On this, I respectfully disagree.  


Ami

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Re: Shame
« Reply #33 on: October 08, 2007, 12:12:45 PM »
Dear Lighter,
  Lets' just respectfully disagree- HUH?                                                  Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

Ami

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Re: Shame
« Reply #34 on: October 08, 2007, 12:23:17 PM »
If "rolling my eyes" can make a deep standing problem go away then, right now, I am rolled up in a ball, doing a headstand and  levitating.                                                                           Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

lighter

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Re: Shame
« Reply #35 on: October 08, 2007, 12:30:52 PM »
Dear Lighter,
  Lets' just respectfully disagree- HUH?                                                  Ami


I'm not sure how applying some the lessons you've learned, to your life, would inhibit healing, but.... you certainly have the right to disagree.

By now, you know how I feel about it so..... we know where we stand, no doubt.

I will say.... the HUH? in your post has me picturing you with your fist set on cocked hip...  head bobbing back and forth, which tickles me the same as if you'd said "screwed."  : )




Poppy Seed

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Re: Shame
« Reply #36 on: October 08, 2007, 01:01:58 PM »
Amy,

 I DO roll my eyes.  It doesn't take the pain away totally, but it does help me to detach.    It helps me stand back and see her theatrics and pull down her smoke screen.  It helps me not buy into all the drama that sucks the rest of the family into her game.  And it helps me feel stronger.  Feeling shocked makes me feel like I am a victim -- like I didn't see it coming and that the snake in the grass got me again.  I am sorry if that statement appears insensitive to you.  It is just something that I have done to take control of my healing and I thought I would offer it.

Ami

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Re: Shame
« Reply #37 on: October 08, 2007, 01:04:30 PM »
Dear Poppy,
 I accept in the manner in which it was offered? Can I come down off the ceiling now?
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

Poppy Seed

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Re: Shame
« Reply #38 on: October 08, 2007, 01:08:25 PM »
 :lol: :lol: :lol:  Of course!  Let's be shocked AND roll our eyes and then go to lunch!!  :D

Poppy Seed

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Re: Shame
« Reply #39 on: October 08, 2007, 04:39:55 PM »
I go back through years of journals and wonder who that person was

She's so different than who I am today.

I think you should journal again.... go back and read then write about what you see.... what scares or upsets you. 

(get in the shower and rage and keen like a wild animal... sink into the sadness... remeber?)

If it's still bothering you.... then it's not been processed yet and by processed I mean completely felt and mourned and let out into the light and turned over and examined.

That's when you can put it down.

That's when the part of you that grew up conditioned to feel shame..... can put it down.

That child is in there and she wants to say it...... it comes out in your life..... everywhere.....

 in all sorts of ways.

Go back and journal again.

Know that anything you put there won't hurt you.....

it's part of you and everyone has stuff.

::sigh::

So many moving parts.... not only do you have to deal with whats in front of you..... your inlaws et....

but you have to deal with what's behind and in you as well.

Very difficult to do and most people can't do it. 

Inviting pain isn't what we're engineered to do.

But that's the way to feeling better, IMO.

I think you can do it, Poppy.

I want to talk to the two parts I highlighted.....

Gosh.  I have been looking at this stuff since I was 14.  I have journaled and journaled.  I have talked to therapists about the details.  I have spent long hours thinking through the pain looking at it....examining it....bringing it in the light......forgiving......and laying it down.  I am not even sure I could recall the experiences anymore.  Which is saying something considering I used to be able to recall volumes of details.  I am tired!  So very tired.  I don't want to live in the past or experience it all again.  I feel like it is a trap.....and I have finally escaped. 

Having said that, I recognize that something is IN me and it wants to come out and does in everything and everywhere.  I am painfully aware of this circumstance and pray fervently that this will show itself to me so I can lay it down.  I guess I am wondering, honestly, what have I missed.  I must have missed something -- something big!  I can't help but feel a tremendous sense of stupidity or failure.  Perhaps this is a question for my T.  But, I want so badly to be free.  To walk out of all the wreckage.  And let it go.  I think my approach now is to take what each day brings.  If I feel the shame....I try to address it.  If something scares me, I try to look it in the face and either face it or call its bluff.  I don't know if that is the same as going to the depths and writing about it.  I feel like I waste time there feeling sorry for myself.  I can't change any of it.  I can't change the circumstances now that seem to continue bringing the rejection that got me in trouble in the first place.  You know, I have never thrown myself away.  I have never let go of that lonely strand of loving myself.  I just decided not to listen to it.  I just can't seem to understand why others don't love me too.  That is the question in my mind.  I don't know quite how to deal correctly with all that happened and continues to happen because I am so damaged.  So, I don't rely on anyone.  I stand alone and practice taking care in the best way I know today. 

What am I missing?  What keeps the pain coming back?  Is it just time??? And continuing to do all the new things I am learning and being patient until the vat of pain is empty?

Sorry.  I am frustrated with this.  Your post rings a bell for me.  So I know I need to look at it.  But it creates stress in my thinking.  I feel like I have lost so much time.  17 years.  I don't want to give over any of my present life now to the past.  I want to keep in untouched somehow.

Poppy Seed

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Re: Shame
« Reply #40 on: October 08, 2007, 04:57:14 PM »
What you said here about the devil snare really registers with me!
I am feeling quite strongly that the past can become such a trap - like a quicksand - so that all of the kicking and flailing only serves to get me more desperately entrenched.

It seems likely to me that all of the past review which has been intellectually processed does need to be released via that keeling and howling, Lighter-style.
Think of the Wailing Wall in Israel...
I did some of that in a dream the other night... woke myself up... and instead of feeling embarrassed and drained, it left me unburdened and relieved... because, I believe, by the grace of God, I chose to allow it to have that effect. It was awful and terrible... but I saw it gone! It was like the circle of agony was shortstopped and became a line flowing out, instead. No poetry in that expression, but to me it was lovely.

[/quote]

So, what is the difference between the proccess that is quicksand.....and the process that leads to the unburdening and relief????  That is my question of the day.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2007, 05:02:31 PM by Poppyseed »

Ami

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Re: Shame
« Reply #41 on: October 08, 2007, 05:05:45 PM »
Dear Poppy,
  What did you mean by the line that you did not throw yourself away.You always had a strand of loving yourself? I can't cut and paste with this computer?                              Thanks   Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

Poppy Seed

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Re: Shame
« Reply #42 on: October 08, 2007, 05:20:09 PM »
Hmmmm....I am not sure how to say it to make it more clear but, I never did that action of throwing myself away.  I have read many places where people with toxic shame did this.  But I never did.  Through my childhood, I always liked myself and fought for myself.  I knew that I was a fixer and had to adopt some codep to deal with the circumstances around me.  I know that the sexual abuse damaged my "self".  I know that the events of my marriage eclipsed the self and I put it away. I tried to change my personality to be more favorable or that would be more socially loveable -- like learning better table manners.  I am sure I went too far with that.  I learned to cave in and did frequently.  I thought I was making myself more loving but I was really self destructing.  Crazy.   I know that I went through a period of years where I couldn't find the center of myself -- the pain was so severe that I couldn't orient to self anymore.  But my experience in the hosp (don't know if you read about that) helped me to find it again.  But I never stopped holding on to my love for that little me.   The rejection just became too much and the damage was too great. I was coping with the best tools I knew at the time trying to controll the incoming arrows and darts......I know now that I need better ones that don't go against me. 

Does that help?

Poppy Seed

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Re: Shame
« Reply #43 on: October 08, 2007, 05:27:49 PM »
One more thought in answer to your question AMi --
You know throughout this last 10 years, I fought for myself or took many steps at self care.  I can see that a lot of my actions were actually pretty healthy.   I got SOOO much flack!  I didn't understand it.  I thought it was my fault.  I thought that perhaps my parents were right.  I had ruined their family and here I am ruining another family who looks so perfect.  And so I took on all the shame of their comments and tantrums when I would try and suggest they stay outside of my boundaries.  Now I understand.  The N component.  Lights are all on now.  But I am so wound up and have to undo all that I did to stop the attacks and make the peace.

lighter

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Re: Shame
« Reply #44 on: October 08, 2007, 05:31:59 PM »
I'm all for getting past and beyond..... I don't want to spend any more time feeling sad or sinking into hopelessness either.

Don't want to.  ::shrug::

I may have to.... and that's just the way it is.  

I much prefer the Zen approach..... acceptance of the bad, for there would be no good things without it.

I'm sometimes amazed at bad things in my life.... wow..... this is my path, who would have seen that coming?

I wonder what will come next.

 I don't dread.

I try to invite better things and get on better paths.

But...... there's still that tap tap tapping on my shoulder at times.

No denying it.... it's there, though it comes and it goes.

I'm keenly aware of the decisions I make at those times..... not blathering into the phone to anyone who'll answer just to feel better in the moment.... but calmly considering uplifting options I could instead choose to persue then persuing one.  

That's the goal anyway, lol.

Whether it's cleaning out a drawer, getting bills paid or researching something I have to figure out..... it's better than letting the ghosts drive me into familiar self defeating patterns that do me no good.

Then there's the regret, shame and recovering from that too.  I need that like a hole in the head so.... mindful mindful mindful.... keeping goals in mind.  Starting the day out with a review of my goals.  Focus.  Nurture.  Stop to smell the posies...... be mindful and present when I can.


I guess we begin to recognize when we feel off or alone or victimized and turn our energy toward something else by sheer force of will, when it comes right down to it?

Maybe that starts to become habit after a while.... recognizing the feelings and choosing to go against the familiar patterns and urges that used to drive us..... and building something better in spite of it?

Maybe that's all we hope for?

Maybe we have to teach someone else the lessons, before we actuallly get it?

Maybe I'll keep evolving but..... I'm so tired of growing.... so tired too.

Poppy.... do you ever have wonderful days when you're so happy to be alive you can't beleive you'll ever feel bad again?

I do. I can usually trace them directly to healthy patterns and behaviors I take the time to gift to myself.

Diligence pays off big in this area, for me.  

So that's what I strive for..... and any negative self defeating critical thoughts towards myself don't ever help.

I make every effort to speak to myself gently.... the way I strive to speak to my children.

I ask myself questions and wait patiently for the answers.......  ::sigh:: not so much time to do that anymore with children and maybe when yours and mine are grown we'll get better at it?

We have a lot going on around us.

Our children, in laws, husbands and the damage attached to them and the damage attached to our pasts and what we've worked through vs what we've avoided or missed.  

SO many moving parts.... so hard to focus on them much less figure everything out and children keep changing and new challenges come up while we're still dealing with the old: /

Maybe faking feeling worthy (and being kind to ourselves) is all there is....after we give up hope and finish mourning?

There's 4 moving parts, IMO.  

Then adcd other people's expectations of us and fair and unfair demands....

the responsibility of children.....

lets face it....

if we didn't have some catalyst and crisis in our lives, we wouldn't be examining any of these things, would we?

I don't think anyone is spared crisis, btw.

I don't think anyone escapes doubt and pain and growth.

I do think some of us are raised with better habits and those that aren't have to work harder to aquire them.

I can't tell you you'll ever feel truly whole and at peace but.....

I can tell you that I feel so much better than I used to.

I've learned something from every awful thing I've gone through and come out stronger, darnit.

I apply that to you and everyone here because it's all I know.  

It's my experience and I put it out there in order to hear feedback and better understand it myself.

Maybe I change some of what I believe, as I go?

 Maybe I change a lot?

Maybe I see that I change the way I look at it and it starts falling into place more quickly?

I want to think about this for a minute, Poppy.....

What would your life look like if you cared for yourself with the same diligence and presense of mind that you care for your H and children?

This is a great thread... thanks for starting it: )