mudpup,
Yeah, don't worry about keeping up with this thread, its actually sort of turned into my online journal or blog. It really helps me when writing to slow down and sort my thoughts out. Plus, when others read it they can challenge me when I'm being unreasonable.
As far as NPD, I'm not sure my wife fits the "classic" image or definition of NPD. I just wrote that, but let me check it out. I think one thing that confuses me is that she shows ONLY her social facade to everyone else. To coworkers she is the outgoing, fun, center of attention and the sacrificing, supportive shoulder to cry on. She is always ready with a story (often the same stories). She claims that everyone who doesn't just love her either has no sense of humor or no personality. So, maybe there ARE people who see through the facade. I believe that I "get" to see the real her at home. Things that she would never consider doing in public, in front of other people, she has no problem doing to me. I feel like I bring out the worst in her and that I'm her dumping ground for all the emotional stuff that she accumulates during the day. Instead of dealing with it, it just gets projected onto me. Ok I'm already starting to believe...
This is from the DSM-IV-TR diagnostic manual. It seems to be about the only thing about NPD on the internet that WASN'T written by Sam Vaknin.
I've bolded the items that seem to fit my wife and added my own minimal comments in italics. Some criteria seem to fit, but with modification. I'm not a doctor, and I don't play one on the internet, etc....
Diagnostic criteria for 301.81 Narcissistic Personality Disorder (cautionary statement)
A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior),
need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:
I'm not sure these things are present in a variety of contexts. I'm not always present there, but I feel like I'm the main target for most of this behavior.(1) has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents,
expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
She expects everyone to see how charming, empathetic, fun and superior she is. Dismisses and denigrates anyone who doesn't agree. When daughter was a baby told me I didn't know how to do anything right, did it all herself, and was furious with me for not doing more. Talk about a double bind! I finally told her that "I am her father, am capable, and love her just as much as you," then kicked her out of the house for an afternoon and said "we will be just fine without you for a while, get out." Doing for her daughter is the only thing I have ever seen her really genuinely sacrifice for. I think this might be part of the "I'm a great mom" moral superiority thing. I think she loves her daughter in there somewhere too.(2) is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
Not really. I get the sense that she draws her main "power" from being morally superior. While her mother ignored her, supressed her personality and used her, she also called her perfect and told her she had to be perfect to sustain her mothers life. My wife seems to feel this moral superiority is what makes her special and superior. Thus, showing empathy for a mistreated animal shows how morally superior she is and feeds her. Being a martyr like her mother does the same thing, but reminds her of her mother so she doesn't do that much with me, but plays the "martyr with the broken, hurtful husband" (me) to get sympathy from others.(3)
believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
Believes anyone who does not see her the way she sees herself is incredibly dense, hopelessly socially inept and out of touch. Dehumanizes and demeans anyone who does not agree with her about her. Almost always views situations with her either one-up or one-down. Either in control (safe) or a victim (unsafe), but rearely equal.(4)
requires excessive admiration Attention/Admiration. She often has children bow down to her or call her "Queen" to get what they want. She makes it a fun game, but it always embarasses me when I see it. Starts telling everyone a month ahead of time that her birthday is coming up. Note, it is NOT necessarily a bad thing to let people know you want some attention, but she makes a really big deal about the whole thing.(5)
has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations Expects to be able to spend whatever she wants without having to consider where the money actually comes from. This has gotten better since she started working full time and learned how hard it is to earn money. Expects to have all her phsyical needs catered to without having to lower herself to mutually meeting needs of someone else. Expects everyone to agree with her on important things and is indignant when they have their own view. always expects me to go first and fix the situation completely before she believes she is obligated to respond in any positive way.(6)
is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends Used to seek out the neediest people around and give, unasked, to them to show how caring and supportive she was. Then got angry and left because they were not grateful enough and did not do enough for her in return. She wouldn't ask them to do what she wanted in return, she was just indignant that they didn't just do it. Has abused me financially for many years. Uses denial and suppression to avoid unpleasant awareness in realtionships.(7)
lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others Consistenly uses denial to avoid feeling empathy with me. I'm "crazy" to be hurt by something she "never" said or that "never" happened. Is unwilling to entertain my preceptions, feelings, thoughts, etc. if it paintd a less than glorious picture of her. Dismisses as defective anyone who disagrees with her self view.(8 ) is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
She would really, really like to be rich. Lack of money doesn't seem to inhibit her spending. If she sees money in the account, she believes that it will go to waste unless she spends it. Doesn't "understand" that there are always outstanding checks that need to be cashed against the account. Not her problem. Always visiting the most expensive model homes as entertainment.(9)
shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes Does telling me she's "perfectly fine, and I'm the one who brought all the problems into our marriage" qualify?DSM-IV Definition of BPD
1.
A pervasive pattern of instability of interpersonal relationships,
self-image, and affects, and marked impulsivity beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:
2.
Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment. Note: Do not include suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in (5).
I have talked about the dance of death here before. That is where she maintains an exact emotional distance between us. If I get too close, she says and does hateful things to get me to back off. When I pull back to far and talk about leaving, she gets nice again for a while to pull me back in. 3. A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation. This is called
"splitting." Either you're great if you meet her requirements and she will do anything for you, or you're damaged and defective if you conflict. She doesn't seem to grant inherent worth to a person except when it gives her moral superiority to do so. 4.
Identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self. As per counselor. Her mother prevented her from developing a personality. My wife has stated in counseling that she often feels empty and has looked for many things to fill that up in the past, mainly feelings, but overeating high fat high carb dite. She does weight watchers and excercises now. Maybe feeling less empty these days? 5.
Impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g.,
spending, sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating). Note: Do not include suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in (5).
I would include her eating habits in this as well. Early on in marriage I found cookies hidden in a sock drawer. I never got on her case about eating, she was generally embarassed by it at that time. Going out to eat is her favorite all time activity, eating, entertaining an audience and living the high life. 6. Recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or self-mutilating behavior.
No. 7.
Affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria,
irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days).
Gets really angry and hateful and then suddenly changes back to "normal." I never see or hear why her mood shifts, it just does. We never discuss the issue or other wise work it out. Where does all that anger and hate go? It usually came out passive-aggressive. She claims to be able to express her anger more directly in words and not be PA anymore. That may be progress, but the words, tone, facial expression are still anger and hatred. 8.
Chronic feelings of emptiness. She has reported this. 9. Inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights).
Only with me. She does have some ability to hold onto those feelings, but seems to need a target to discharge all of that on, instead of processing it herself. None of the "typical" BPD physical abuse or rage, she lets that out in other ways like overspending, PA, witholding intimacy and sex. 10. Transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or
severe dissociative symptoms. Dissociation is the state in which, on some level or another, one becomes somewhat removed from "reality," whether this be daydreaming, performing actions without being fully connected to their performance ("running on automatic"), or other, more disconnected actions. It is the opposite of "association" and involves the lack of association, usually of one's identity, with the rest of the world.
The way she describes it, I suddenly freak out for no reason in the middle aof a perfectly calm discussion. The way I remember it, she snaps and spews out vile hatred and then acts shocked, SHOCKED, when I respond angrily. She claims to have no memory of these events, but remembers everything before, and my "out of the blue" reaction after.So, I'm not sure this proves anything, but it does remind me of all the things that would absolutely have to go before I would consider staying in this realtionship. I think my wife has elements of both NPD and BPD. I especially relate the entitled aspects of NPD without the overt grandioseness and the lack of personality and dissociation from BPD. However, I firmly believe that people do NOT fit into neat little boxes the way the DSM-IV describes. Any person is always way more complex and deep than any description could ever do justice.
And, just so you know, I have had Major Depression with strong AvoidantPD tendencies and all kinds of other issues from growing up in an emotionally neglectful home and being bullied. I'm NOT saying I'm perfect and its all her fault. Right from the start of our marriage I admitted that I had issues
just like she had and that I cared and was willing to discuss and work on my issues.
And you thought this thread was long before....
