My Long, Long Story.........I no longer Feel Alone With This

[Anonymous]

Hi Longtire:

...I have shed the anger and rage and come to love her in a moral sense.

By this, do you mean, a sort of brotherly love?  Do you love her because it's the right thing to do?

...then I'll be able to love her. I put the onus on her for my lack of love. If I don't love her now, I probably won't love her later either.

By this...do you mean...romantic love?

I understand your confusion, Longtire.  But love is a choice...isn't it?
I mean....we decide to love or not to love.....it isn't some magic thingy, is it?

You have a right to choose not to love your wife romantically, or to do so in a brotherly way, for whatever your reasons, which are indeed valid.
That is your right as a human being...to choose who and how to love, as you see fit.

After so many years, you are used to being with her.  Even if things were never lovey-dovey, there are a lot of memories.  People who are with each other for long periods of time become sort of attached, habitualized to eachother, even if it is all a rather negative experience or just so-so.

It's not easy to quit that.  Especially, in your case, where you feel like...no matter what the reason....you want to help, save, protect, fix whatnot.

I hear the turmoil in your post, Longtire.  (((((Longtire))))).

It seems to me, that because you are trying to choose to break the long standing habit of trying to help, save, protect, fix etc...., and even if you want to do that but realize it is useless to keep trying because it hasn't worked so far.....and even if you have done it because of your childhood need to have that......you are beating yourself up about it.  But you have a right to make that choice, Longtire.  You are not obligated to try any harder or any longer to help, save, protect, fix, ... your wife or to love her better.   You've done your best.

 I put the onus on her for my lack of love.

There is no blame on her or you.  She has problems.  You have problems.  We all have problems.  So what?  The real blame falls on those who harmed us to begin with, doesn't it?  The real onus is on your parents for not giving you what you needed, not on you for trying to give it to someone else.

In marriage......the essentials for me are:

Honouring eachother
Communication
Intimacy
Sharing
Trust
etc.

These do not sound like they are too far off your essentials either???

Ok....so if these are missing, and you believe this is what you both deserve, what you both contracted with eachother, what you both would benefit from.....is there some crime that you are soley responsible for that created that absence?

Doesn't it take two to tango?

You have a right to end the dance, Longtire, if you so choose.
And.......there is nothing to be ashamed of or feel guilty for, in asking for that dance, in trying to keep step, and in finding that it just isn't the right dance partner, and in moving on after giving it a good go.

GFN

[Anonymous]

If I get too close, she says and does hateful things to get me to back off. When I pull back to far and talk about leaving, she gets nice again for a while to pull me back in.

Doesn't do intimacy but likes to see you squirming and trying to achieve it.

And the therapy session that, as bunny said, can't bring sustainable change?

Another ....pull you back in.....reel you in......ploy??

Projecting her fear of abandonment on you, I agree.

Close down the screen.  Turn on the lights.  Refuse to let the show go on!!

You deserve much better.

[longtire]

Dawing, bunny, mum, and GFN.  I see and agree with everything you said.  Thanks so much for being there and continuing to talk with me through what must look like being dead stuck on my part.  Believe it or not, I have gone from 1 step forward-2 steps back which had me stuck for years and years to 2 steps forward-1step back.  Now when I bounce, I come back down on the side of leaving each time.

One difficulty of my INTJ personality is that I feel driven to understand the situation so I believe that I won't have to go through it again next time.  So, it takes me longer to learn than most other people.  The good side to that is that I really and deeply work through things and come out the other side far better off than most people.  It is a difficult, painful, ultimately free and rewarding way to be.  I feel that I am just now reaping those benefits and coming into my real life.

My feeling is, the ones you really want to rescue are your childhood parents and your childhood self. Your wife is only the stand-in. From your description of her, she is going to need years of intensive help. And even then it will only help things a little bit.

Yes, this is exactly what I've been doing.  It helps that I HAVE rescued my inner child, thought not the real child of the past, from this!  I needed this step to be healthy and secure going forward.  Continuing to try to "fix" a different situation today as a way to try to fix a situation in the past is unrealistic, futile, frustrating and exhausting.

The issues I am working on now are related to that "putting myself away for safekeeping" I did as a child.  This issue has been then primary driver and defining characteristic of my life until this point.  It has driven just about everything else I have thought and done.  I believe that we never run out of growth opportunities in our life, but I'm hoping and praying that working through this deep core issue will free me up to choose, rather than feeling dominated by it.

Take care of yourself. It's pretty clear you are on your own.

No, I'm not, thank God!  I've found a place where I am cared for even when I'm in distress and can't give back at that moment.  The support and caring I've been given here has demonstrated to me what "interdependence" is, since I daven't seen that elsewhere in my life.  No one does the work for me, but no one leaves when I am needing more than I am able to give.  Trusting in that base I have been able to take steps and be more than I ever thought possible for myself.  I believe that God has a huge hand in this as well.  But, I believe that God speaks to us through others when we aren't able to hear him directly.  I don't feel that words can express the gratitude I feel to have you in my life and trust that you already know this feeling yourselves.  God bless.

[Anonymous]

Hi Longtire:

...must look like being dead stuck on my part.

It doesn't look like that to me at all.  To me, it looks like you are reaching out for help, like you are in a confusing, scarey, painful position, like you are trying to sort out your thinking and your feelings, like you are trying to be reasonable and fair, like you are working on making a sound decision......

To me it looks like you are doing a very good job of searching for the right answers to get to the bottom of a tough question......

To leave, or not to leave?? That is the question (and I'm no Shakespear!! ).

It's not easy to decide.  Our head tells us one thing and our heart might say something else.

The smart thing to do is listen to our heads.
The Christian thing to do is to listen to our hearts.
The reasonable thing to do, imo, is to listen to both, and take whatever steps necessary to do what seems reasonable and fair.

That's what you're doing, Longtire.  And you're doing a good job so far!!

....I have been able to take steps and be more than I ever thought possible for myself.

You sure have, Longtire, and I can see you growing stronger and stepping forward, more and more, too.   Good for you!!

God speaks to us through others when we aren't able to hear him directly.

I believe this too and I thank you sincerely for reminding me.

GFN

[mum]

Hey, Longtire: I know you were quoting me to make a really nice point..and I get it...just know that the "it's clear you're alone now" comment was really meaning:  "you're moving on" and possibly away from her.  

I agree about the help here....surprising for me, really.  I too, have those stuck times (now being one of them) but also feel I'm there for not as long....and I don't step back so far anymore.

[Anonymous]

Longtire,
Thank you for not chucking an internet tire iron my way because of my post on Friday. After I posted it I thought it was kind of impatient, as though I had a right to be frustrated with your situation! I thought sure I was going to catch a flame thrower from some direction.

It is very common for people to have overlapping characteristics of these disorders. More common than not. It just so happens my N is a case study in NPD. Most aren't.
But your wife sure has got a mess o' problems. And they all seem to stem from some type of personality disorder. My understanding is all P.D.s are exceedingly difficult to change.

Back to my frustration with you. You know why I'm frustrated with you? Because you are me! When I hear the way you are being whipsawed and dancing on the end of your wife's string I see what I did for years. I didn't need someone to give me a shoulder to cry on. I needed a big cold flounder slapped right across my earhole. And I mean a 400 pound Alaskan halibut. I needed someone to shake me and say "What are you doing? He's playing you like bass fiddle and you don't even know it! Wake up, get a grip and stop avoiding what you know inside you have to do!" What I would not give now for somebody to have cared enough then to knock me off of my stool of complacency and wishful thinking.

Regarding you avoidant tendencies. Ditto for me. They are a self fulfilling prophecy. They paralyze us, then bad things happen because we didn't do what we should have and that paralyzes us more. Taking some action, any action, for me is the antidote. Because that slaps me out of that thinking and brings about the desire for more action.

Don't worry about the length of that post. Long posts are the only way to transmit enough info for others to understand your situation. I learned more about your wife from that systematic description than any other post.
Anyway God bless and congratulations on two steps forward and one step back. It sure beats the opposite, huh?

mudpuppy

[longtire]

Mudpuppy, within your first couple of posts, I knew that we must be similar in some way.  You kept saying what I was trying to work to, just in a lot fewer words than I would have used.  

I've prayed for guidance and heard God say to me "Move on" 3 times now.  So then I prayed for understanding to make sure I understand that really means move on from this "marriage."  Tonight, I did more reading in the bible and also some searches on the internet.  I feel that I've gently moved into the knowledge that what I've had with the person I thought was my "wife" was never a covenant marriage.  No trumpets, no big changes in me this time, just a quiet acceptance tonight.  I'm hoping that means I'm finally ready to move on and no more bouncing back and forth!  I think that I simply had to try everything else from counseling to understanding her childhood to following God blindly (rather than by revealed knowledge) to satisfy my own conscience.

I've asked God to correct me if I am moving in the wrong direction.  I've asked him to excuse me from this "marriage" and my part of the covenant, because to me it IS a true committment on my part.  Right now, I feel a peace and restfulness that I haven't felt before in this process.  I'm curious to see how I feel over the next several days.  I have therapy tomorrow and will talk with my pastor on the phone Tuesday.

Thank you all for being here for me when I needed help the most.
Good Night and God Bless

[Anonymous]

Longtire,
Ditto on the similarity thing.
I know there are different interpretations within the church of what constitutes grounds for divorce.
To me, in your case that has become almost irrelevant. You are in danger of losing your marbles with this woman. Even if it is wrong to divorce her, you will be forgiven for struggling to maintain your sanity. If it isn't wrong in God's eyes so much the better.
I'm not presuming to tell you what to do, just that you seem to over analyze like me, in lieu of actually doing something.
I do know some women who have left their husbands over intolerable behavior. They have not sought a divorce, they have simply chosen to remain seperated but married. Invariably their husbands seek a divorce when they figure out they're not coming back. I'm not saying your wife would do the same, probably not, but that is how they have dealt with the issue of divorce.
Anyway if God is telling you to move on, then you shouldn't listen to anyone else. Oswald Chambers had a great line. I'm doing this off the top of my head, "Never seek advice for something the Lord would have you decide before Him." If you know what he has told you, you have no need of my or anyone else's advice. Whenever I have done the opposite I have screwed it up.
God bless.
mudpup

[longtire]

Ugh.  I had therapy earlier.  Now I feel a feeling inside my chest at the back, behind my lungs.  It feels like dread to me.  Like a terrible fear of being found out somehow.  Let me tell you what I worked on today.

My therapist started by telling me anyone would be ambivalent in this situation about ending a marriage.  OK.  We talked about how what I've been going through seems more intense than that.

He asked me if I can explain why I want to leave this realtionship to a 6 year old in 25 words or less.  In other words, am *I* CLEAR on why I want to leave.  I tried several times, and he pointed out that I each time would have lost the 6 year old within the first couple of words.  His point is that being able to describe the concrete, observable aspects is important for being secure about my decision.  My feelings, interpretation and reactions to those observable sensations come after that.  I have a strong intuitive "feel" for the patterns, but that is not grounded in the facts right now.  He told me that having that grounding will help keep the ambivalence and the back and forth from being so extreme.

Well, I struggled on some more, but didn't feel like I was doing very good at it.  It doesn't sound that hard, but I really had problems keeping what I was saying only in the observable range.  My therapist asked some questions about waht I was saying to help me get a better idea.  This is not something I'm used to doing, and I believe I will need quite a bit of practice to get good at it.

My therapist told me that I was already making progress and was moving into the "front room" where all the observable stuff is.  That's opposed to the "back room" where all the processing is going on.  He really was supportive through all this.  I told him that I felt like I needed a lot more practice at it.  He suggested writing it down as a good way to document and organize the concrete observables.  Well, I felt and feel bad about not being able to do this very well.  I'm questioning whether there is anything concrete there to justify my feelings or whether its all in my head.  

One of the "things" I brought up was telling my wife I wanted to talk about sex (or lack thereof) and to understand her limits with it.  I heard her tell me that she "is completely open to discussing sex anytime," and then saying "I'm not ready tonight."  I asked her when would be a good time to do that and she told me that "I'm not sure, I'll let you know."  I brought up this exchange in the next joint counseling and said that I "don't understand whether S is willing to talk about sex or not.  She says she is, but then she said she wasn't willing at that time."  I heard S interrupt and say "That didn't happen!" while I was talking.  I reacted and got upset and the session basically went nowhere from there.  I was very upset and called the counselor back later to discuss this.  The counselor said she did not hear S say "That didn't happen."  She said that she had been listening for it since I discussed it with her previously as being a major hot button for me.  I asked if we could tape record the sessions from now on, so that the next time I thought I heard S say this, we could check the tape and answer the question once and for all.  (If I'm crazy of hallucinating, I'd like to know!)  The counselor said she thought that was a great idea (as did my therapist) and she would have the equipment ready for the next joint session.  My wife had an individual session with the counselor between our joint sessions.  The day before the next joint session, I found a letter from my wife in the morning saying she was leaving joint therapy but wanted to continue individual therapy on her own.  She has not discussed this with me other than checking to see if I read the letter.  BTW, my therapist is in the same office suite as the counselor.  I signed the paper giving them permission to talk and compare notes.

My therapist asked how I feel about the counselor NOT hearing what I heard.  I told him it bothers me.  I told him that I'm open to discussing whether I am hearing things, but neither he nor the counselor have diagnosed me with hallucination.  We both agreed that this ONLY seems to come out with S, nowhere else in my life.  I told him that S's negative behavior mainly comes out with me, so I understand that doesn't preclude me from hallucinating only in a more "intimate" relationship.  I pointed out that my wife left joint counseling the day before the first session with the tape recorder which seems telling to me, and admitted that it still didn't mean that I wasn't hallucinating also.

If I'm hallucinating, how would I know?  I guess only if someone I trusted shared their experience of the incident to compare against.  I don't trust S, she very rarely shares her experiences, she just denies mine.  I'm not sure what the deal is with the counselor.  I was already unhappy with her before that and felt that she was buying S's story without keeping an open and impartial mind.  I've read about therapy abuse, but could S really confuse the counselor, or am I missing something that they see?  I know how much S confuses me, but I would expect the counselor to be more aware and impartial.  At one point, S told me that the counselor had told her that she hadn't done anything wrong.  I know, that's hearsay, but still....

All this questioning whether I am hearing things, coupled with the difficulty I had trying to ground things by putting my experience in terms of the concrete "video camera" observations have lead me to completely question myself.  Have I imagined everything?  Is S fine and I've created all these problems where none existed?  Why would I do that?  Am I to blame for the failure of our marriage?  Am I insane, at least around S?  Confused around her, certainly!  Is it really my confusion or hers?  Do I hear her say things that she did not say?  How would I know?  It seems like audio or video tape is the only way, but we aren't really speaking anymore, so now what?  Do I have this problem elsewhere in my life and I just don't know it?  Am I insane in general?  Is this why I have always had such problems relating to other people?

I feel like my entire existence is in question.  How can I make a decision if I don't know whether I'm crazy or not?  Do I have the right to expect decent treatment from S if I've caused all these problems where none existed?  Should I be working to make amends to her if this is the case?  I believe a lot of this questioning myself is coming out of that Avoidant place, but this is worse than I ever remember.  Can I ever "know" anything again, or do I just "feel" and "believe" things.  Do I have to remember every word, gesture and facial expression of everyone I talk to so that I can be sure I'm not imagining things and have a real basis for my interpretations and beliefs?

I know I'm over reacting.  I hate all this self doubt.  No one else put this in me.  I know that it is mine, so *I* have to deal with it.  But, *I* feel soooo ungrounded right now.  All that stuff I thought I had figured out is out the window again.  This reminds me of how I felt as a kid trying to make sense of my emotionally void home.  I'm just trying to hang on right now.  Sorry for the emotional spew.  I feel a little better now.

[Anonymous]

Hi Longtire:

I know I'm over reacting.

Any person who suddenly starts to think they might be hallucinating would be as upset as you are.

Consider this:

!.  The counsellor may not have heard your wife say "that didn't happen".
    The counsellor may have missed it and therefore does not believe it was said.  The counsellor may not be the very best alive and may very well be taking sides.  I would not be shocked to learn this.  Don't panic.

2.  When was the last time you had sex?  Are you hallucinating that too?

Longtire, dealing with people who act like N's is confusing and makes us feel crazy.  It's hard to put a label on exactly what it is they do that drives us wacky and causes us to want to get away from them.  They are experts at convincing others of their "sanity" and our "craziness".

It is quite possible that this is what is happening in your case.  Your wife may be more believable than you are sounding (more expert at acting??  Convincing??  Used to fooling people??).  You're not out to convince anyone of anything but rather...to try to figger it all out for yourself.  That can look a bit unclear because we do indeed feel unclear because what Nish people do is distort so much that it's hard to tell what's clear!

You're ok, Longtire.  You are not creating all of this.  Re-read your post in which you listed all the similarities of the different N/borderline diagnosis criteria and applied it all to your wife.  You gave examples there.

Why you want to leave this relationship?  Maybe it can't be explained right now in 25 words or less.   That doesn't change what you want or why you want it.  You are entitled to be tongue tied because your emotions are all a whirl.  It hurts to end a marriage.

GFN

[Anonymous]

longtire,
You're not crazy, you're not hallucinating. That broad (excuse me ladies) is in your head with an egg beater and she's making an omelet.
What your wife said is standard operating procedure for Ns. And in my experience it is common for third parties to miss the little comments Ns make.
So please trust your instincts. God put them there for a reason.

mudpup

[Anonymous]

longtire.

Take a deep breath....calm down....it's going to be okay.

First, you don't have to make a decision on your marriage right this minute. You can simply feel confused about it. Only caveat: don't talk about the confused feelings with your wife. Call your therapist.

Second, how did you get the idea that you may be hallucinating? There is a large middle ground between florid psychosis and definitely hearing something. It's called, "I'm pretty sure that's what I heard, no matter what anyone else says." Memory is tricky. No one has a perfect memory, not even your (former) couples counselor. I'm sure under cross-examination with a good defense attorney, she might hesitate as to what she heard.

Third, the couples counselor was in over her head because she couldn't keep the session safe, and argued with you about what was heard. You would need a better one, if you ever returned to couples therapy (IMO).

Fourth, divorce is not something people have to justify to God, nor through a lengthy, tortuous justification to themselves, nor through a therapist urging them to cough up reasons. If you were ready to divorce your wife, you would know that there was no other option. You'd know that you couldn't keep living this way. You would be so utterly miserable that you would simply not be able to stay there. Right now you are still able to remain married, so you haven't reached the point of decision. You're in contemplation now.

Take what you need and leave the rest,
bunny

[Anonymous]

Looking back a little in this thread, you wrote:

...In other words, I could sit around and think about it all day long, but didn't really know how to put it into practice. ....

Basically, what I'm saying is that I don't think this pace or level of change is common or to be expected. It certainly is often painful, exhausting and uncomfortable for me.

Longtire, the decision is painful, exhausting and uncomfortable.  It's a high level of change.  You have been thinking about it and discussing it and analyzing it and making sure it's ok and thinking about it and examining so much and thinking about it and considering it and remembering and thinking about it and ......

....it's still hard to

put it into practice.

 Ending a marriage hurts.

I was at a pool party once and a little fella slipped and fell down and scraped his elbow....He looked up at his dad, who immediately hollered:
"Take the pain, Son.  Take the pain!!!"

All the adults laughed like a bunch of idiots except me.  Maybe I'm the idiot but I felt really sorry for that little guy and his hurt elbow.

But.....he kind of scrunched up his little face, slapped his hand over his elbow, got up, and took off running around.  Soon, the hand came off the elbow, a smile was on his face and he didn't really seem worse for wear.

I feel sad for your pain, Longtire, but maybe that dad was right.  Slap your hand over the scrape you got today and keep going!  Soon you'll have a smile on your face, thinking of Mudpuppy's description of your omlette (you're something else Mudpuppy-heehee).

GFN

[mum]

Longtire, you're not nuts.  GFN's story about the kid and the elbow made me think of pulling a bandaid off....little by little, or all at once?  There is no right way.  You're doing the little by little because you are a nice guy with feelings for others.  Give yourself a break.  Sit with it.  Give yourself a night off.

Something that helped me, when I was trying to muster up the courage to tell  my second husband I wanted that divorce we'd been discussing and I felt really bad about it (turns out he didn't, imagine that):
My sister asked me:
"how would you feel if it were over...you told him..." I said , ok, kinda sad, but relieved"
then she asked: "and how will you feel if you don't do it?"  and my feeling in my gut was my answer.........awful, just awful, like I wanted to scream my way out of this dismal marriage and life with him...

After a break, maybe those questions will help you.

Both of my ex's (N's..........slow learner) would twist up what I said and then tell them it was me, hearing things, losing my mind, being a mess.
Since it pretty much only happened with them (and a few Nish siblings) I decided to listen to MYSELF for a change, and trust myself.  Turned out to be a great idea.

Hang in there.  You don't have to justify one damn thing.  Who is this judgemental diety anyway?  Not one I know.

[Anonymous]

Longtire,
Maybe this wll give you some perspective on your "insanity."
This happened to me about 15 years ago. After being in business for a few years with my anti-Wally Cleaver of a brother, I met my future wife. This coincided with bro taking a year off from work to traipse around the world while I was working like a beaver. Sorry. Anyway, with my coming husbandly responsibilities and spending a year away from Svengali it dawned on me that I was getting the decidedly short end of the stick. So when he got back I told him I was going to buy him out of the business. Being young and foolish, I didn't line my ducks in a row, and largely just to get away from him, the Readers Digest version is, he created a huge crisis and ended up with part of my share of the company and isolated me (somewhat) from the family.
This is where it gets sick. He eventually had me convinced that I had gone bonkers and behaved irrationally, maybe even had a nervous breakdown. That I was the cause of the business breaking up, not him!
When I look back it is almost impossible to believe I could have been that colossaly blockheaded. It seems impossible now, but then I was convinced that I had behaved at least somewhat bizarrely.
I now see that the only time I have behaved rationally has been when I have told him to go take a walk until his hat floats. But at the time my brain was a cheese omelette, just like yours is now. That is what they do for a living, if you can call it living. They make omelettes and we're the eggs. You know what you have to do if you want to make an omelette, right?
Would it make sense to move out for a period of time and put off any decision about divorce until your head clears? In your case it seems you will have a hard time clearing your mind as long as she is constantly there to control it. I could not get my mind free until I got away from him. Thank God my wife finally forced me to just cut off contact.
Incidentally if I had any doubts about your wife being an N, your last post cured me of that. That is classic N. Vintage stuff.
God bless.

mudpuppy