My Long, Long Story.........I no longer Feel Alone With This

[longtire]

Well, very little sleep for me last night, maybe 2 hours.  I've had this problem before and know anymore how to get myself back on a schedule to get enough rest quickly.  3 day weekend coming up.     All kinds of stuff was coming up for me last night so I did journaling since I wasn't able to sleep anyway.

I did more work on forgiveness.  Actually, I should say I checked where I'm at with forgiving her, since I haven't made much progress for several weeks due to all the other stuff coming up for me.  I believe that I've forgiven her now and not only are the anger and resentment gone, but I have compassion and caring for her now.  Honestly, looking at my story, do you think she's happy and peaceful or even understands what that means?  I still have to figure out how to tell her I forgive her in a way she can understand.  If she gets defensive and freaks out then that's her reaction.  I would like to get my point across, though.  Its almost anticlimactic to forgive now.  I thought there would be trumpets sounding or something like that.  I basically just decided that I don't want to carry around that load of anger and resentment that keeps me from moving on anymore.

I am feeling a lot more angry with the joint counselor than I realized.  It was a reasonable expectation to expect her to know what to do when one of the parties alleges verbal abuse and denial and dissociating are going on.  Simply saying, "do more Imago, that will fix it" is not competent care in that situation.  Ignoring my questions of "I don't see how more Imago will fix our basic communication problem," and being told to just do more Imago.  On numerous occasions I talked about how it was hard to trust my wife due to the mixed messages I repeatedly get.  "Do more Imago to build trust."  At one point she suggested something that I had done in the past with disatrous results.  When I said that I had tried that before and it didn't work out well at all she told me, "You couldn't have done that.  You hadn't come to our class yet."  Gag!  No other therapist, book, or self-examination could possibly allow me to do it, or do it the "right way," only her class. Why not say something like "I believe that behavior X has changed in you or your wife and trying that again now might be more successful" in that situation?  Her common reaction was that since she didn't see the covert abuse going on in her office (Duh, its covert! and I was very reactive in there, wonder why? ) that she wouldn't bother to address it.  I was looking for advice on how to handle the situation when those things happened, not a rote answer which did not address the problem.  I didn't realize that I would be victimized again by someone telling me the things I saw and heard weren't happening because they didn't personally see it.  BTW, the basic problems that I see are that my wife sabotages communication to avoid intimacy and that I am codependent and take on responsibility for some of her stuff to keep the relationship toegether.  I'm working on my stuff.  I can't do anything about hers.  Now, I'm concerned about what she told my therapist and whether he takes her opinion over listening to me.

I plan to ask my wife if there is anything she feels comfortable mutually exchanging to meet needs, like more physical contact.  From what I've heard from her, physical (not sexual) contact like hugs, shoulder pats and holding hands appear to be some of her primary needs (re: 5 Love Languages).  I insist that it be mutual.  If she isn't willing to give it, she isn't willing to get it!  I believe that I can do this in a caring way now, without being reactive.  That would remove her blaming me for not being willing or not doing it.  If she blames me for doing it wrong/badly, as often the case in the past, then I will put the onus on her to explain what she wants more clearly and let her own all that.  Maybe I will be pleasantly surprised.  Maybe it will still be the same as in the past due to her fear of intimacy.  Either way, I am doing what I say I will.  The only way out is through?  I'm all about handing her back all her stuff that I've carried around all these years.

I've really come to see that for me talking and sharing verbally with the other person is my primary need for intimate relationships.  How about that, a guy who wants to talk!  Well, talk first anyway.  I am a healthy male after all.  

[bunny]

longtire,

I am not cringing at anything you said. I believe you have very powerful reasons for remaining in this marriage and that the problems might even be worked out at some later date. Or you'll find a way to live with her. I don't really see divorce in the cards, to be honest.

I don't blame you for reading her email but I think it's optimal if you don't do it anymore. And hopefully you'll tell your therapist you did it. The reality check is, I don't think she is going to leave you for another man. That is almost laughable to me (sorry). She may have crushes, or fantasies, but they are at a schoolgirl level.

As you pointed out before, she is like a little girl and she isn't really old enough for sex. She may not even be old enough for adult hugs, pats, or touching. If you keep that in mind, I think it'll be okay.

If you need a person you can talk freely to, she isn't it. That is one price for remaining in this marriage. You may have to find people outside the marriage who can meet that need. My H doesn't meet some of my deep needs and I'm getting them met on this ng. It doesn't mean we have to get a divorce. It means we need to find ways to adapt to each other's limitations.

bunny

[longtire]

Today was a good day for me!  I am starting to catch on to what good, defended boundaries are.  I thought that I had been detaching before, but my wife's stuff still bothered me.  Now, I am starting (just!) to let it go and let her stuff be hers and not have it effect me one way or the other.  I'm concentrating on me and what I want in life.  I'm concentrating on living my own life and being OK regardless of what anyone else around me does or doesn't do.

I've been thinking about how what's going on in therapy doesn't seem to be very helpful to me right now.  It seems like what we've been doing is indirect.  Its like my therapist is trying to prove some point or other instead of just coming out and telling me what he thinks is going on.  I would much rather just talk about it directly.  Maybe he is onto something, but isn't sure what it is yet?  I feel upset after therapy each week, but I haven't figured out yet whether that's because its working and bringing things up, or because it isn't working and I'm frustrated.  I'm afraid that I might be reacting to avoid something that would help me.  Plus, I've been thinking about dropping back to every other week since it doesn't seem very helpful at the moment.  I plan to talk to him about all this next week.

I am working on figuring out what my boundaries really are and figuring out how I'm going to defend them they are encroached on.  I feel entitled to live my own life now.  That's one of the big reasons that today is a good day.  I don't believe that I need my therapists help to do this.  My mood has been getting more stable recently, not so many backs and forths.  I think that I was trying to push a decision on whether to leave my marriage and wasnt (aren't?) ready for it.  Hopefully, I will figure out where my boundaries really are and will then know whether to leave or not.  That's all for tonight.  If I haven't said recently, thanks for being here to support me through the ups and downs.   (((((all)))))

[Anonymous]

I'm concentrating on me and what I want in life.  I'm concentrating on living my own life and being OK regardless of what anyone else around me does or doesn't do.

Good.

I plan to talk to him about all this next week.

Definitely tell him. It's possible that your situation is also over his head. Or else he is stuck doing something that isn't working and needs to stop doing it. Sometimes a therapist hears a patient saying they need to make a decision. What the therapist should do (IMO) is talk about how the patient thinks decisions are made. Talk about the decision-making difficulties for the patient. not focus on the actual decision. The decision is often symbolic of something else, or not a real decision. Many therapists will get stuck thinking they'll "help" the patient "make the decision" and that will be therapeutic. It's not. What's therapeutic is to look at the struggle of the patient.

I personally think therapy would continue to be helpful to you. But the therapist has to be really good because you are smart and you are motivated. Your therapist has to keep up with you. I'm not sure this guy is doing that but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.


bunny

[longtire]

Talked with my folks for about an hour about everything going on for me over the last several weeks.  Yes everything, maybe it was an hour and a half. I'm letting them know the good bad and ugly about it, including my faults and failures.  I want them to know me.  I'm hoping that this will help me talk to them about issues I have from growing up with them.  Until then I am grateful that I can lean on them for a while.  I know a lot of people here have family who are not healthy enough to do that with.

I've been thinking about it, and I'm going to tell my therapist that working relationship issues with him is not working out for me and I'm going to find someone else.  It didn't work out with him before and I stopped talking about it to concentrate on other things.  I got those other things, this is what I need help with now.  I'll practice my boundaries and non-reacting with him. Maybe he has actually been pursuing something and will change my mind.  I'm open, but it needs to be good!  Maybe I'm reacting with this and running away.  I'm thinking about the possibility and I'm not just quitting and not showing up one day.  If that is the case, I'll make a mistake and live with it.  I deserve more help than I have been getting.

The therapist I've been seeing is a Ph.D. in "talk" therapy.  He doesn't do any of the other sorts of things like CBT (EMDR, EFT, etc.).  In the past I thought that I needed a Ph.D. to keep up with me (keep me honest), as my mind is agile, if not wise.  Also, I'm stubborn!  (We need a mule icon here!) I'm not so sure anymore.  I'm beginning to think that a wise counselor who can handle my philosophical/logical experience of the world might be able to help me better.  has anyone had experience with this kind of therapy or counseling?

[Anonymous]

Hi longtire,

It's amazing that you can now talk to your parents. My parents would be horrified if I tried to have an emotional conversation with them....anyway it sounds very good on that front.

I've been thinking about it, and I'm going to tell my therapist that working relationship issues with him is not working out for me and I'm going to find someone else.

And if he is a halfway decent therapist, he will quickly see a connection between this wish and your wish to leave the marriage.

I'll practice my boundaries and non-reacting with him.

Actually I'd practice stronger reactions with him. Show him your reactions (especially disappointment, frustration, anger) and see if he wises up to his errors in technique.

Maybe I'm reacting with this and running away.  I'm thinking about the possibility and I'm not just quitting and not showing up one day.  If that is the case, I'll make a mistake and live with it.  I deserve more help than I have been getting.

Tell him this.

The therapist I've been seeing is a Ph.D. in "talk" therapy.  He doesn't do any of the other sorts of things like CBT (EMDR, EFT, etc.).  In the past I thought that I needed a Ph.D. to keep up with me (keep me honest), as my mind is agile, if not wise.  Also, I'm stubborn!  (We need a mule icon here!) I'm not so sure anymore.  I'm beginning to think that a wise counselor who can handle my philosophical/logical experience of the world might be able to help me better.  has anyone had experience with this kind of therapy or counseling?

My feeling is a therapist who knows about 'object relations' will help you. Whether they have a Ph.D. isn't that important. They can know object relations and still include CBT, EMDR, if they're into that. Often therapy is a grab-bag of various techniques. But object relations is the underpinning that allows them to truly grasp the situation and work with it. In fact, object relations theorists are the ones who came up with the modern concept of narcissism! They also came up with attachment theory and separation-individuation concept.

bunny

[Anonymous]

Hi longtire,
It's amazing that you can now talk to your parents. My parents would be horrified if I tried to have an emotional conversation with them....anyway it sounds very good on that front.

They aren't quite sure what to make of it all, but they try hard and tell me that they will support me whatever I decide. They were the first ones to tell me they were not surprised when I told them about getting a divorce a year ago.

I've been thinking about it, and I'm going to tell my therapist that working relationship issues with him is not working out for me and I'm going to find someone else.

And if he is a halfway decent therapist, he will quickly see a connection between this wish and your wish to leave the marriage.

Even I can see that one!

I'll practice my boundaries and non-reacting with him.

Actually I'd practice stronger reactions with him. Show him your reactions (especially disappointment, frustration, anger) and see if he wises up to his errors in technique.

Yes, I plan to let him know that I am disappointed and frustrated, without (over)reacting.

Maybe I'm reacting with this and running away.  I'm thinking about the possibility and I'm not just quitting and not showing up one day.  If that is the case, I'll make a mistake and live with it.  I deserve more help than I have been getting.

Tell him this.

I will.  I'm making a list so I don't forget anything.  

Thanks, for being there bunny.  I really appreciate that you take the time to read my posts and respond.

[longtire]

First of all, I have a new signature.  I was hesitant to put it in because it could be a contender on the "Most Outrageous N Statements" thread. I'm willing to take that risk since I know that I'm coming from the other direction and always questioning myself.  I feel like I need to be reminded everywhere I look that I'm OK until it sinks in.

Well, saw my therapist yesterday.  Didn't tell him I wanted to leave.  I had prayed about it the day before and got a firm "No!" when I asked if I should leave.  Yeah, I know, take the religion over to the "Offending Dr. So-and-So" thread.  Sorry, I'm in a playful mood today.  I told my T that I was frustrated and disappointed and that I didn't feel it was working for me.  He agreed that we were "moving extremely slowly."  I told him that his 100-man-rule was bogus and he said he won't use it anymore since it doesn't help me.  I told him that I believe that he wasn't listening to me.  He repeated back a lot of what I have been saying (he did hear) and assertively told me that *I* was being to hard to understand when talking about the concrete details of situations.  I need to revisit that last one later.  It was good to just tell him how I felt and what I thought WITHOUT trying to take care of him by being codependent.  I didn't say he was wrong, I said how I felt and what I believed without worrying whether I was right or how he would react.  That's a **HUGE** step for a codependent like me.

Then I told him what I've become aware of recently.  Because of the utter lack of positive feedback growing up, I got the message that I was not seen as valuable (my parents couldn't see me).  As a confused and hurting kid, I interpreted that as "*I* am not valuable."  Ever since I feel like I do not have a real home or anyone to cheer me on, pick me up when I fall, or just be there to help when I need it.  To some degree I was right about that because I chose to be around people who treated me that way.  However, this feeling doesn't jive with my real experience.  I am able to talk with my parents about what's going on in my marriage (good and bad) and they tell me they will always support me and be there for me no matter what I decide or what happens.  I post here and get loving support and sometimes loving correction when I need it. I tell my good friends about what is going on and they support me, too.  The excpetion in my life is my wife, who is only saying to me the SAME THINGS I BELIEVE ABOUT MYSELF!  "It's all your fault, nobody could live with you, you only cause problems, you are clueless and don't see how you are causing all these problems."  I see that I've been staying in this relationship to use it or the stability (what a joke!) of the situation as a (piss-poor) substitue for self-esteem.

When I asked my T what the basic problem was he pointed to his head and said "thinking!"  He put it like this.  "If you treated a dog the same way you have been treated, do you think he would start questioning himself?"  No, of course not.  The dog would react to the situation, probably feel "bad," but would never have the "awareness" to question whether there was anything fundamentally wrong with itsself or whether it "deserved" the treatment.  It would just feel bad.  I wonder if that's a reason why pets are so helpful when we're hurting.  They just feel bad without any of the self-doubt and self-deprecation we humans engage in.  Hence, my signature.  I told him that I already knew this, but I have a hard time remembering it.  My T suggested being aware of that and when I realize that it happened telling myself "I'm OK, I just forgot for a while!"

Wow, I feel free.  I feel OK.  I appreciate the world around me again.  I love life.  I'm excited!  It is so true that all the good stuff comes through our being connected and accepting ourselves.  Why is that so hard to do for so many of us?

[mum as guest]

Lontire: Why is it so hard for so many of us?  Because we love.  Because we care.  Because we are connected to our inner joy.  Because we know that joy is inside of  everyone.....and we choose to see that instead of thier pain.....and we choose to trust rather than distrust.  And when layers of other people's pain are thrown our way, we love still.  Until we learn from them that love "must" mean pain.    And then, we wake up, and wonder what happened and.........well that's why we are here.

I am so happy for you.

[bunny as guest]

I told my T that I was frustrated and disappointed and that I didn't feel it was working for me.  He agreed that we were "moving extremely slowly."

Good for you. Did he think moving extremely slowly had anything to do with him?

I told him that his 100-man-rule was bogus and he said he won't use it anymore since it doesn't help me.

Good again.

assertively told me that *I* was being to hard to understand when talking about the concrete details of situations.

How do you make yourself hard to understand? I can understand you. Maybe he's a bit slow on the draw....?? I'm not saying to dump him. I'm just questioning what he's referring to and why he's getting defensive.

It was good to just tell him how I felt and what I thought WITHOUT trying to take care of him by being codependent.  I didn't say he was wrong, I said how I felt and what I believed without worrying whether I was right or how he would react.  That's a **HUGE** step for a codependent like me.

Congratulations!!

When I asked my T what the basic problem was he pointed to his head and said "thinking!"  He put it like this.  "If you treated a dog the same way you have been treated, do you think he would start questioning himself?"  No, of course not.  The dog would react to the situation, probably feel "bad," but would never have the "awareness" to question whether there was anything fundamentally wrong with itsself or whether it "deserved" the treatment.  It would just feel bad.  I wonder if that's a reason why pets are so helpful when we're hurting.  They just feel bad without any of the self-doubt and self-deprecation we humans engage in.  Hence, my signature.  I told him that I already knew this, but I have a hard time remembering it.  My T suggested being aware of that and when I realize that it happened telling myself "I'm OK, I just forgot for a while!"

Not sure I get the stuff about a dog but I'm glad that you can just remind yourself without a lot of time-consuming agony.

good work!

bunny

[Stormchild]

Longtire, I LIKE your signature. A lot. Glad you picked it!

     

Congrats on standing up to your t. Just being able to say that stuff and not be attacked must have felt pretty d**n good. [On edit: not that your t would attack, but everything in our lives has taught us that would be the most likely response. Bravo for going ahead anyway.]

Balloons to celebrate: QQQQQQQ

[longtire]

Thanks for the support bunny, stormchild, and mum.  Thanks for the balloons stormchild!

I told my T that I was frustrated and disappointed and that I didn't feel it was working for me.  He agreed that we were "moving extremely slowly."

Good for you. Did he think moving extremely slowly had anything to do with him?

He admitted that he didn't know why it was moving so slowly.  I take that as an admission that he didn't really know what to do with me. In any case, it was good for me to speak up and do more to set the agenda.  Kind of how its supposed to work anyway, no?

assertively told me that *I* was being to hard to understand when talking about the concrete details of situations.

How do you make yourself hard to understand? I can understand you. Maybe he's a bit slow on the draw....?? I'm not saying to dump him. I'm just questioning what he's referring to and why he's getting defensive.

Well, I have to admit that I'm not the most eloquent speaker in person.  Typing online gives me a chance to re-read what I write and make sure that its clear.  Beyond that, I was feeling very insecure about giving concrete details since I didn't believe I was being heard (false) and wasn't sure I was doing it right (afraid there was something wrong with me).  The tone of the interactions felt confontational, rather than accepting, to me.  I get nervous in those situations.  I want to revisit it when I've consolidated this shift in my viewpoint.  Believe me, I certainly have hundreds of concrete examples that I can give!

[Anonymous]

Hi Longtire:

What a great step ahead!!  Way to go!  

Well, I have to admit that I'm not the most eloquent speaker in person. Typing online gives me a chance to re-read what I write and make sure that its clear.

Me either.  Are any of us?  I mean, it's much easier to read and reread what is written and make it better each time.  In real life, it comes out after a moment's thought and that's it.  There's no taking it back..really.

It's hard to be clear when feeling anxious.  Good for you for doing your best to express yourself!  And the results are very good.  My bet is you will only get better at it!

Stormchild!  What a lovely creative thing to do......balloons!!!

Too   !

GFN

[Stormchild Guesting]

Hi GFN

Actually I think it was October who came up with balloons first, for Chutzbahgirl's birthday.

(goes and checks thread)

Yes, it was October. To her the credit! But thanks  

Storm

[Portia]

Yeah, I know, take the religion over to the "Offending Dr. So-and-So" thread.  Sorry, I'm in a playful mood today.

Keep the religion with you I say. If it’s your thing, it’s your thing. Just be sure it’s your thing and not someone else’s! Hope that makes sense. I’m encouraging you, nothing else. Do you mean playful or - what do you really think? Honesty hurts

"If you treated a dog the same way you have been treated, do you think he would start questioning himself?"  

I think given half a chance the dog would leave. Is that what he meant? I wonder what he thought a dog would do. Are you ‘allowed’ to ask that, what the therp thinks so you can check his thinking? A cat would be firmly ensconced in another home by now, having bagged it’s place by the fire, demanded it’s favourite foods and arranged the humans’ timetable so that it received lots of stroking when it wanted it.

Hey thanks for setting me on the right understanding for co-dependency. I get it now, lots! And I do it, shucks, what a surprise.  

I love your sign off.