Relationship/s

[Hopalong]

I'll PM with info.

hugs
Hops

[Hopalong]

Beach gathering was 90% delightful, even with 10 women so different from each other. Long tradition in this group of ridiculous sarcastic banter which I adore hearing (rapid fire, too). I love listening to them get into it while they play cards. I don't enjoy cards so just hang out and it is FUN.

Bed wasn't comfy but, feh, rentals. One incident was tough but I feel okay about the aftermath. One woman there who knows my D story well has her own...she lost her beloved girl to suicide four-five years ago. She absolutely cracked with anguish and I was among those who supported her and listened during the peak of it. Reached out to her several times since and enjoyed our emailing. Anyway, she'd moved away right after her loss but comes back for the annual beach thing. She is VERY bright and verbal...kind of free-associates long detailed stories that are very entertaining and interesting, although the never-pause delivery can be wearing. I have always liked her (maybe with a little wariness) and really looked forward to seeing her again. She's closer to several others in the group, long term.

For some reason being with all of us from her old community must have stirred up fresh unhappiness (she hasn't yet really found her tribe in NC and perhaps moved away from her support system too soon) and discontent, on top of all the reminders of the people around her when it happened (her D had been hospitalized in Germany and on a daypass jumped to her death). Absolutely ghastly for friend, who sobbed all the way across the Atlantic in the arms of kind flight attendants.

Long story shorter: I wasn't saying anything at all at that moment as a group conversation was going, with friend talking a good deal about how hard that year had been, with her characteristic great intensity. I was just listening and nodding with empathy (and feeling it) like everyone else. After somebody said, "Raise your hand if you were a perfect mother" and one woman did as a joke and the rest of us including me just kept listening, she suddenly turned and looked over at me and said nastily: "Well we ALL know YOU screwed up as a parent!" Out of the blue.

I was dumbstruck. I heard later a few others were too. I let it pass instantly, feeling that she was projecting out of the intense feelings of chaos and anguish she was trying to cope with in that moment. But it did shock me and hurt. A little later I said gently, "I don't think I screwed up as a parent, though I made plenty of mistakes. It's a little hard to predict mental illness or what it can do." And then the moment passed. (Another woman told me later I handled it with grace, so whew.)

I forgave her instantly but also recognized that I probably won't be able to relax or let down my guard around her again. Words really can wound if you go for the most vulnerable place. I don't think she planned it or realized how hurtful a thing it'd be to say to me, because her own pain is so acute she cannot see outside. I really do understand that and feel very badly for her. Still, being in a group of women (always a tiptoe thing for me because of the early-life girl-bullies stuff) it was a bummer to have to negotiate that particular moment.

I did though. And I think pretty well. I still look forward to going again next year. It's definitely a good laboratory for me to work on how much to assert in groups of women, when to let stuff go, and just observe the group dynamic in them and how I interact with it myself. (For some reason I'm bulletproof with men in groups--I think because I truly do not care about their approval. I'm more vulnerable with women.)

On this annual trip there's enough silliness and lively interesting talk and the sense of all of us belonging to a larger thing (the local UU community) that makes it worthwhile and eases my isolation. I'm happy I got a spot and will be saving up every month to be able to go next time -- for a whole week.

In a way it made me feel like I had my church family back. I'm grateful, I need these people and most of them like and a few love me. That's a nice thing! I learn a lot more about them and myself every time I'm around them, and this visit I got closer to a couple. Really glad about that.

hugs
Hops

[Twoapenny]

I'm sorry she did that, Hopsie, what a nasty and unnecessary thing to say.  And how fortunate for her that you didn't retaliate - you could have destroyed her but chose not to.  I hope at some point she realises that and offers some kind of apology.  I suspect (with my amateur psychologist head on) that she feels her daughter's suicide was her fault and that she screwed up as a parent, and shoved that out in your direction.  Very unfair.  I'm glad the rest of the trip was good though, and that you can go again next year xx

[sKePTiKal]

I think life (and people) bring these experiences to us to teach us that none of us get to live without conflict or risk - much as we think we'd like to, it's not really good for us. We are designed to work for and create what we want/need. And fight for our selves, too. To create our own safety.

No matter what is going on outside of us.

[Hopalong]

Thanks, Tupp.
I think you're right that it was pure projection.

It's even occurred to me that in her own unique way (in good times even, she relates stories her with a sarcastic edge and laughs at the awfulness of people) -- perhaps her subconscious tossed out that remark as a kind of id-y way to express some sort of bonding with me? I dunno. FELT like a lashing-out, but psyches are complicated.

Surely she knew how deeply I empathized. Her D had the same illness mine does. Hers was just less controlled and defeated her in the end. My D could meet the same fate, and friend knew how much I resonated with her. We had talked about it quite a bit on a few occasions.

Or it may have been a lashing-out because in her mind, it's not fair that my D (with same mental illness) still lives and hers didn't survive. Unconscious, all of it, I think.

Doesn't matter. I'm not angry. Wary, but I don't know how one could not forgive something ugly erupting out of a mother who's experienced nature's ugliest loss.

hugs
Hops

[Hopalong]

I like that, Amber. Extremely helpful for me to ponder this on many levels and about many circumstances.

We are designed to work for and create what we want/need. And fight for our selves, too. To create our own safety.

Thank you. Mucho.

hugs
Hops

[Hopalong]

Back to the more fun side of relationships (at least in early days): Men!

Date #2 with Scot yesterday went really well. I'd suggested my favorite open-air (open-sided tent) restaurant which is a combo of good food and relaxed, upretentious atmosphere (often hard to find here). He really liked being there and patted Pooch the whole time.

Talk was easier, and enjoyable (such an interesting life -- he's still consulting with the last big foundation as person in charge of theater grants, so four times/year he's up to his eyebrows in scripts from new playwrights). He still does a bit of foreign relations advising in DC too but I don't know what form or frequency.

But he didn't talk in that pompous way about himself I'm so used to, LOL. He just talked and I did too and he listened pretty well. I said that I have no family "in my life" and he didn't ask further questions, which was a relief. I'll get around to telling him about my D but it's nice to be slower about the gut-spilling. He has two sons (one, with 4 y/o grand-D, lives here w/his family) and one still in the U.K. I think.
I kind of liked it that family was in proportion in his conversation since a lot of people my age I meet talk only about that. He's had a broad and very interesting life and remarkable friends so I think it'd be lovely if it goes further. As of now.

One revelation that I am sitting with is that while I had a beer I noticed he didn't so I just asked (I am direct about stuff but in a kind voice): I see you're not drinking, does that mean you're teetotalling or sober? He said yes and that when his wife of 45 years died suddenly 5 years ago he went completely off the rails and realized within six months that he'd become full-blown alcoholic, went to rehab and joined AA and has been sober for the last 4 and a half years. I just said good for you! We talked about it generally and he seemed quite comfortable owning it. Even mentioned the cultural thing (Scotsmen drink too much in the first place) and he said it was funny but a TV show about a pathologist turned out to be very helpful, made him think more about what the alcohol was doing to his body.

I think he's fought his way back to life after horrific shock and grief he wasn't prepared for. I also brought up how boys are socialized: macho, invulnerable, stoic and he was nodding away, which I found encouraging. Told him my obsessions include culture and how people are formed, inner layers etc.

Afterward he dropped me at my car (his was reassuringly full of dog hair) and said we'll get together again. His emails are about 10 words long and so far he hasn't called, but he's got a stack of scripts to do for his consulting thing.

I'm going to remain mindful of what poet friend said: careful and guarded, but once into you, they're rocks. I kind of hope he WILL become "into" me, but it may be that he's looking for friendship only. I wouldn't turn that down but need to be cautious, as I'm already feeling excitement about him (not just wait-and-see energy, which is the one I need to tap into.)

I need y'all's encouragement to keep my foot calmly on the brakes, pleeeez. But so far so good and I'm pleased about this. Still DEFINITELY need to consider myself in info-gathering and slow and cautious mode. I have no way of knowing whether he's dating others or whatever might be the case, since I haven't asked.

Maybe our next encounter would be a time to ask a little more directly what he's searching for (why he was online). His first message only said: I never thought I'd be looking for anything other than simple companionship now. Interesting, as it left unspoken what he IS looking for.

Me, same old same old. I want it all, the full commitment, enchilda, shared life and even the ceremony. Not saying that's with Scot, way too early, but my overall reason for dating now hasn't changed. (M played unaware but I'd told him explicitly from the get-go. He just wasN't caring enough to weigh his impact on my dream.) Hopefully, the Scot will handle my heart with care and that I will know better than to hand it over too soon.

Happy about this despite the necessity of risk and vulnerability. Me, big girl now.

hugs
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

Eh, sounds like you're doing a good enough job restraining yourself on your own Hops. You like him, he likes you... and it's OK for now, if ya both date some other people. Maybe you could propose a date in his stomping grounds, if it's not too far away?

[Hopalong]

Thanks, Amber.
He lives about a mile away and the easy place to meet is downtown or near there.
I'll find out if he'll invite me to something else (he did mention he loves to cook).

I'm just going to wait to hear from him once he climbs out of his plays-reviews pile. Could invite him to my house but for some reason, I'd rather wait until he unpeels a bit himself. I find it intense to invite someone to my home so try to time that.

Basically, since I'm already visibly enthusiastic (or more extroverted), I wanna wait to risk more vulnerability.

I'm okay dating others too but there's no action on the website at the mo'. I have paused actively looking and just wait until somebody's motivated to write me an actual message rather than a click-automated one.

It's all good. Happy to hear you see me as functioning pretty well with it. So far.


Hops

[Hopalong]

Sigh.
The Scot wrote me a very ethical and admirable message explaining that I have been the only person he's contacted or seen from the dating site, and he's realized that after his 45-yr happy marriage he's just better off being alone, though he'd like to be friends ("nothing structured").

I thanked him for his honesty and told him only he knows what's best for him. Also, began my reply saying "Oh gosh, I knew I was transparently over-enthusiastic." Told him I've been alone too long and would like that to change but am grateful that he was so honest. And okay, I'll be his friend.

We'll see if he actually responds or offers actual friendship. I'm sad about it but MUCH MUCH prefer an honest, ethical man saying "I'm not able to do this" rather than stringing me alone with fairy tales.

I am sad. This will pass. Back in the saddle.

hugs
Hops

[Twoapenny]

I'm sorry, Hopsie.  It is good he's been so honest but it's still a disappointment, I know.  I will continue to keep all things crossed that Mr Hops is tap dancing his way to you somehow.  I get endlessly frustrated with things that can't be controlled (like people! Lol).  I hope you are okay xx

[Hopalong]

Thanks, dear ((((((Tupp)))))).

I'm weepy and drinking beer (probably not a very mature reaction).

But it'll be okay. Time fixes nearly everything.

I appreciate your kind response, given all you're dealing with.

big hugs
Hops

[lighter]

Sorry that happened, Hops.

With some distance, I guess he's experiencing all the little and great pants if mourning, guilt, shock, disbelief and anger accompanying the death of a long term and beloved mate.

Since you're his first date, maybe he'll work through some of his stuff.....surely, friend's will tell him quitting right away isn't rational. 

Relaxed, friendly fellowship, sans pressure and expectation, might provide him space to grasp his new life and seek out joy.

It sounds like he's punishing himself for outliving his wife to me.  Rolling around in what he's lost, like a little dog in it's mess and that's part of getting through it, ime. 

Whatever it is, you sound really grounded and happy right now which is likely why he wanted to see you a second time.....even if he's just not ready to "date" date.

Just be a light in his world and keep being your happy self, ((Hops.)). That he's an honest Scot is a good thing, imo.

 People like being around folks who make them feel better/good.  Remember boundaries and keep seeking joy.

Lighter

[sKePTiKal]

Oh Hops.... this isn't a rejection, OK? It's an admission that he's feeling uncomfortable with his own feelings about what he wants. It's good he respects you enough to be honest about it. What Lighter wrote jumped out at me:

sounds like he's punishing himself for outliving his wife to me.  Rolling around in what he's lost, like a little dog in it's mess and that's part of getting through it, ime.

This DOES happen; I've wrestled this myself. And it is possible to get through to the other side to live & love again. I'd say be the best friend to him, you can be - for now. Let him - help him - gain perspective and his sense of loyalty to himself back (ie, self esteem). At his own speed and interest. And see where things lead.

My best relationships have been with men, I was "friends" with first.

[Hopalong]

I think y'all are Really Really Wise Women. Thank you!

Poet friend said to me: what've you got to lose if you are just honest and tell him you Really Like him? She thinks sometimes men don't know so why not? (While accepting and supporting his need to take care of himself; iow, his honest way of handling whatever he was feeling -- which unfortunately made me like him even more.) So I did, with humor and reassurance we could manage friendship. He wrote back assuring me again and very directly -- it'snotyouit'sme -- and said he'd be calling after a week in NYC. I bet he will since I think his character's good. I've used humor throughout so am not dumping drama on him.

I think you've given golden advice. Be his friend and see what happens.

I think one reason I had a weepy time about it was I was so disappointed in MYSELF. I talk big about info-gathering, not fantasizing and being all Judith-Sillsy, but I fail at that over and over. I'm losing confidence that I'm even capable of suppressing/hiding those hopes. So I worry even friendship will be too painful (as it proved to be with M).

My hopes and yearnings are just big. And so unlikely at age 71 to be realized. I do accept (in rational mind) that I may live alone for the rest of my life. But the rest of me is a love-focused puddle of ectosomething. Again, an older man with supportive loving family and comfortable resources realizes life is easy enough on his own.

I also worry, knowing myself, whether I'll fully take in reality as I so often swear is my friend, or hopefully go along being his friendly/happy pal when that isn't really what I want. Or since I liked him so MUCH, isn't really realistic with him without hurting myself. Too early to bail on a fair attempt...but the advice to be his happy friendly friend might turn into acting or manipulation. I can't do that either. Shoot.

Here's my worry. He SAID: "....whether because of the memories and impact of a 45-year very happy marriage or just the fact that I've become accustomed to living solo I am just not ready for any relationship beyond friendship, and I certainly hope we can share that...."

What I did with M. is when over time he made two very clear statements to me during best-friend year, I continued to nibble around in my mind with hopes that would change. No chance. Those were once in an email: "Don't imagine anything else." And once in person when I asked how he'd make space for me: "I don't want to change anything."

How do I tell the difference between M's direct statements that amounted to "NO" and the Scot's "I am just not ready." I suppose "not ready" COULD be interpreted as "might be ready later..." But I wonder if that's foolish. That's what I'm worrying about, anyway. My ability to fantasize and deny reality because of the Lovely Dream. I dunno if Scot is ruling it all out forever (comfortable living solo now) or for now.

I guess I need to continue dating (slim pickings now, and with winter isolation coming) and keep my head. My head, despite life experience, is about 14, I think.

If I coulda kept my head under control ....

Thank you thank you thank you for listening. You've no idea how much it helps.

hugs
Hops