Mindfulness and codependence thread

[lighter]

Doing from a different place..... yup.

For me, it's a shift above how I usually handle things.

Feeeeels very adult, frankly.

Like handling little children, myself being one of the children I'm handling.

The adult has to step up and do what needs doing, despite the distress if creates,IME.

Now, if I can just get on with it till it becomes habit and comfortable and default setting.

Lighter

[Hopalong]

You can!
As long as you're very compassionate to yourself and remember the MATH:

Two steps forward + one step back = still forward.

Good for you. Even the first noticed instance of a new right direction can light the way. Repetition (with effort) will encode it. And faster than you think.

Bravo!
Hops

[lighter]

(((Hops))))

Thanks for the vote of confidence: )

Light

[lighter]

I've been pretty mindful of what goes into my brain, what I stop from bouncing around and what I want more of..... those things lifting me up, bringing me joy and keeping me grounded in the moment.

Im not gonna lie.... it's a ferris wheel..... moving in many directions, sideways and diagonally too.  But I SEE it moving.  Sense the pieces.  Understand the concept....better than before.Let's just say that.

As I do MY thing, I'm also bouncing into and off of other people's things. 

After a day of watching myself watch disturbing videos..... I noticed i still have similar reactions around them.  I sometimes catch them, reel them in and see what comes next.  It's interesting practice.  It's practice.  That's enough.

2 nights ago I was talking to friend K and noticed...... she and I use the darkness to dispell insanity....... we do.  It's snarky and we laugh and laugh and outdo each other's snark and it's realllly satisfying and reassuring and...... comforting to us.  It's how we used to roll when her life was falling apart, then my life flew into flames then..... we were out of each others lives.

Now..... she's back. I'm back. We're IN. Invested.  Together again..... solid and the fear has gone.  Left us.  What do we have to lose going back to what we used to be?  Nothing. At least, nothing I don't believe I can handle....now.  I'm better.  I'm not switched, but when I was... there was very little ability to navigate what fears came up around seeing or talking to her again.  I was cagey, suspicious, veered off if she asked anything personal.... where WAS I living?  I was OUT.  Gone again for a couple years.  Missing her, but I had to get through and I did.

So..... she's back and she's experiencing back problems, just....... health problems in general.  Her ability to sleep is shot.  She can't heal and she needs more surgery, likely, as her healthcare insurance is leaving and I noticed the darkness we engage in, for sanitie's sake and wondered how it's impacting our health.  HER health.  Our children's health. What are we modeling for them.

Now, my kids have called me out on my passive aggresive way of operating in the world, bc...... there's been stress and I've been holding it IN for so long..... the stress and fear and resentment seep out....... mostly in small ways, but it's there and I know it and the kids know it.  I have trouble appearing vulnerable, bc you never know when you're going to have to fight for...... well. You.... I..... never knew when I was going to have to fight for my life, literally and figuratively..... I was fighting lions and tigers and dragons...dragons being the fears that didn't find me, but I feared might. Lots of fear.

So I'm talking to K and we do the back and forth banter, so comfy and calming.... but it's bugging me, bc I want to manifest wellbeing and a very strong immune system....... for myself.  For K and my kids and FOO and everyone I care about, but all I can do is what I can do. That's about me and my choices.

My choices rub up against the people I interact with. All the time. On this board, IRL, within the texting stream youngest dd19 has been batting back and forth since last night..... she needed comfort and reassurance, fellowship.... someone to just listen to her troubles, mainly due to poor diet choices she understands already and requies zero comment from me. 

And I have a lovely afternoon planned with my Moss friend, L.  I'm IN THE ZONE busying myself around the house, taking care with my hair and foot and comfy clothing choices I can relax into during the visit.

But the snark....the comforting snark.  Laughing into the darkness.... finding the humor, bc it keeps K and I sane. 

I'm in a different place from her....... my toe vs her healing back surgery.  Her small town full of honestly upsetting groups of people leaning in on her daily..... vs my little world where I've pulled in all my ladders and extend them carefully, at my liesure. 

She still needs the darkness and I can DO that with her while she needs it. I don't think the awkward silences we'd struggle throuogh are worth whatever gains I'd get from explaining and asking to limit the negative people and snark we employ to laugh them OUT or her system.  I still need to process difficult things, after all.  How I do that is still forming...not sure how to do that while just limiting the stuff.  I'm guessing it's with EMDR, etc. or setting a time limit and just DOING IT for that time period, but always getting back to the uplifting joyf in front of me now.

And K will heal and grow and take what tools making sense to her.  She has a gift for cutting through BS and going to the reality and heart of a matter...... I lack.

So, onward and upward. 

I choose to join in the snark selectively, but leave it behind most of the time.

How we stay sane, under pressure, is how we stay sane.  We make changes when we have a lull or some respite, iME.  I don't know if I could have settled down enough to learn anything in Fight or Flight 15 years ago.  I hope I COULD have, but it's not clear.

K will learn in her own time and I will pick and choose my moments to explain what I'm working on....then listen to what she's working on and we'll get back to "normal".... but a new normal, it's hoped.

Lighter

[Hopalong]

I GET it, Lighter, I really do.
And my apologies for sometimes being one of the "rubby" people. (I think it's usually when I start trying to control stuff, out of fear.)

Anyhow, I too have gone down dark true-crime rabbit holes on the internet. It's a very odd thing. Some days (nights) I just have an impulse to read or watch stories or documentaries about heinous crimes.

I was pondering it with a friend and concluded that the comfort in that is that once it makes it to the Tee Vee, it's usually a story that ended in some form of justice. Bad Guy gets caught/locked up/karma bites/long sentence, etc. (Too late for most victims, but satisfying for an uninvolved audience).

Lately I've also enjoyed the cheesy "I Survived" stories, because the pluck and grit of those folks awes me. "A grizzly bear ate half my head so I crawled 4 miles to my truck." "I was attacked by a serial killer and kicked my way out of his car trunk." "I was lost at sea and ate raw fish I caught with my bare hands until I was picked up by a frieghter..."  These are actually way more fun than the darkest stuff. You're looking at a survivor's face -- an ordinary non-hero's face -- and hearing some reality. Makes a cozy bed feel even comfier, kwim?

For me, that sort of escapism (I have several sorts) is all about eluding the constant truly-terrible news, which will not be resolved in an hour, if ever. Perversely, drooling through old crime TV works for me in the context of "story" -- some way somehow, thought it's never pure or enough, there is some form of resolution (if not justice) by the end.

If only.

hugs
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

Sometimes we don't have the luxury of lulls, Lighter. And I think you DID learn important things during your fight/flight experiences. It shows in the work you've done.

One of the most important tools I've picked up for those times when one is in a cyclone of life, is prioritize what is important-est to me. And completely letting go, or not engaging the things that can absolutely wait. It sounds obvious - but for me, it's not really. I have to remind myself, it seems, every time. That's OK. Work in progress. Sometimes people get upset with me over that process - but it's not my job to make sure they're OK, if they're not in MY cyclone or aren't causing it. In a cyclone, I can only focus on keeping my self OK - not letting myself slip INTO the fight/flight level of survival. There are other degrees; other ways... and identifying the "most important thing to me right NOW" - is one way I do that. Delegating, is another - and that one was hard to accept. I'm better; still working on that one. Keeping that balance of rational brain going - alongside the emotional stuff too; actually feeling it while engaging in those higher order thinking processes - takes a lot of practice.

For whatever reason, my life has offered me almost constant opportunities to practice - in lots of different situations. Despite whether I want a break from it all or not. It's like the universe says: OH YEAH? Here, hold my beer! So when I do have a chance for more than just "maintenance escapism" (like reading myself to sleep) I definitely indulge.

[lighter]

Hops:

I want to better understand the people who follow murderous dictators and those who resist them, even when it creates personal danger and risk.  It's touching on current events, for me. 

I didn;t choose True Crime docs. I chose Documentaries on Nurses murdering innocent men, women and children, bc the Nazis ordered them to.   What happened to the nurses who were tried for their crimes.....most of them said they were just following orders, even though they had time to come up with more sympathetic excuses.... they didn't. They spoke their tuth, still believers, it seemed.  They could have claimed their safety was at risk, or their families, but they didn't. 

Then I moved into documentaries of survivors who were children in the Nazi camps.  I don't even want to write that here..... what happened to those children flips my stomach, I see a flash and then I'm trying to breathe my way out of the reactivity, again.  I don't feel powerful at all.... I feel my ability to respond has always been diminished by my reactivity.  I wonder about all the people who followed and fought against the Nazis and their inner workings and the voices in their heads.  Such horror and risk and fear and pain.

Who stands up and does the right thing when their own familie's safety is on the line? 

Who follows murderous orders, bc they see honor and duty? 

There's the tyrants, true believers, those who follow blindly, the technicians who draw up the plans and road maps for efficiently carrying out the plans.....those who do nothing and those who resist while sidestepping danger and finally those who sacrifice everything.... those willing to sacrifice themselves, their FOOs their friends, bc they can't see any other choice.

I don't think those kinds of decisions are mostly informed by fight or flight, reptilian survival brain.   I really don't know.  It's confusing and I want clarity. 



I can picture the Buddhist monk, Thich Quang Duc, setting himself on fire.... in protest... sitting there....burning.  So still.  So quiet.  Sending a powerful message around the world.  I don't know how did it, but I have to think he wasn't switched when he did.

And..... was it his voice directing that moral imperative?  Was it his father's voice or his teacher's voice or his own pure voice, like a light, shining like a beacon, refusing to be voiceless? 

I don't think he was switched.

Lighter

[Hopalong]

It's very strange to me that at various times (not always) I can enjoy those dark stories. I think they're different for me because they're in the past, they have ended and again -- the ones that make the TV shows have some kind of end or resolution. So they're a "safe" distraction or interest. Short dramas that explore the dark sides of people now safely locked up or gone.

Marinating in frightening future scenarios is beyond my psychic capacity after the last 4-5 years. It's much too real for me now, since Jan. 6.

Yet I can't/won't enjoy horror films, or anything supernatural. THOSE really disturb me, more than the real ones! Makes no sense....

hugs
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

Long time ago, I mentioned my research into Pavlov's famous experiments. (I was 17; it felt like vital information to me, so close to the Twiggy years.) Marshall McCluhan was on my reading list earlier; Martin Buber, too. But between now & then, I've gotten at least acquainted with most of the lit & studies on Psychological warfare and behavioral science, what is known as "mind control"... and the tricks of Madison Avenue. It's been an ongoing "project".

Back in the late 60s, maybe early 70s, there were some important experiments that explored the reasons why people would "just follow orders" even when those orders meant doing something one's own morality believed to be wrong or evil. Can't remember the psychologist's name right now - he's relatively famous.

The study of the application of same theories to social movements and politics came later. I was "woke" before there was such a thing, because I was so poor... but not ignorant. And over the years, I came to a place for myself in my own understanding of things and how they work - that doesn't neatly fit either of the duality labels.

From my personal viewpoint, I wanted to understand how all that kind of manipulation and influence worked - to be able to protect myself from it. I really didn't want to be just another one of "those guys". I didn't want to - again - go through the pain of realizing the "bigger picture" of what I'd been involved in- in hindsight.

----------------

So, what I believe now about all that.... (and it touches on the kind of education you've pointed out is so lacking Lighter)....  is that many many people are so unconsciously motivated for acceptance, belonging, validation... that it gives rise to the clichés of "herd mentality", "groupthink", "echochambers" and "peer pressure". Conformity, not being the nail that sticks up, being "part of" (anything), being able to identify one's SELF with a "club" (in the George Carlin sense of the word) and now a substitute for the classic "Know ThySelf"...

and having a strong sense of one's own values, morality, and beliefs - that is yours and yours alone - that one doesn't need to preach on the street corner looking for acceptance & validation - one just lives one's life by those principles. One doesn't need to explain them, or "share" them, or defend them or justify them. They can't offend anyone - unless one is so loyal to one's "tribe" that one dare not question their own values or the tribe's - and someone else who is DIFFERENT crosses one's path. Then, the othering demanded by the group involves engaging that sense of offense, in order to persuade the "outré" to at least outwardly emulate the traits of the group -- or be persecuted.

This is a whole area of study - one can observe real life and study it too - and even experiment to test theories about it, if one feels like tinkering a bit and being a little sneaky. Most tests I've made suggest that when a conflict between the group's values and logical reason are presented, the subject will almost ALWAYS fall back on the ideological dogma of the core values of the group. True & valid, or  not. It would take experiencing a huge disillusionment or shock of reality (outside the worldview of the group) to actually get the subject to question the validity of what they think they know and believe.

Remember Boat, or whatever persona she's going by now, was looking at the same thing from a different starting point? It's useful study, IMO - because it translates so easily into the mechanisms of N, manipulation/control, and co-dependence and abuse symptoms - and is an extremely unfortunate mirror of the same phenomenon.

[Hopalong]

Conformity's one thing, reflexive opposition's another.

To me the tragedy is gradual loss of the capacity to act in concert for the sake of community or humanity. WWII veterans (and others who sacrificed so much at home) are rolling in their dusty graves.

I'm very grateful my father, who served in intelligence, isn't alive to see this. It would break his heart.

hugs
Hops

PS About the bubbles and echo chambers, see 20:21 here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROWwrrJP_UQ.
I find it intelligent and helpful (esp. about critical thinking and empiricism)

[Hopalong]

Apologies if I sound cranky in this discussion.

I literally can't absorb the mounting tragedies of our country now, I think, hence my news diet which I should stick to!

I still scan dire news but I'm hunting up this sort of story, too, which really helps:
https://www.goodnewsnetwork.org/iceland-builds-a-factory-to-bury-co2-in-rock/

hugs
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

Hops, my curmudgeon is openly walking around these days too. Mouth & fingers aren't even trying to be tactful sometimes (yes, it still matters to me that I at least TRY). So many people (including me) remind me of those balsa, rubberband airplanes -- and the rubberband is wound WAY too tight. I see it in Hol - at this point, even news that Apple has an important OS security update is enough to trigger a life/death crisis energy in her. For me, it was wondering if Steve is really holding down the fort at the Hut while she's working or not. Yesterday, I was greeted by Knuckles who seemed to be going in/out on his own... and no one else made an appearance. (Which isn't unusual.) But my imagination concocted a whole story within seconds.

And NOW.... I just heard workers at the distillery that makes Elijah Craig & Evan Wiliams bourbon are going on strike. They don't wanna work weekends, if you can imagine that.    Who DOES?  This presages a shortage of essential fluids required to survive the apocalypse (which might reverse the downstream of shortage of TP again)... and oh MY... the whole world is going to hell in a handbasket.

Maybe I should be making & selling handbaskets??

I literally can't take any of my own "stuff" - or the stuff in the news seriously anymore - until it really IS serious. It's all relative. Remember subliminal advertising? People claimed that a frame or two of "hidden images" were inserted into some commercials or tv shows? I thought I saw some things, once upon a time... but then remembered the "power of suggestion". On the other hand - doom scrolling the news online has a definite rhythm to the release of "outrage" headlines (aka clickbait) or "bad news" versions of actual events without ever mentioning the potential upside - is well within our control.

JUST SAY NO; don't do it.     

I'm patching Buck's motorcycle "draggin' jeans" and embroidering kitties & dragons &tc on them, hippie fashion.   He didn't specify how they were to be fixed.     

[Hopalong]

Oh that's HILARIOUS, Amber, about B's jeans!

That says SO much about what's wonderful about your chemistry.

I think you should add at least one lovely butterfly, perhaps over an...errrr...cheek?

Totally agree on doom scrolling, the rhythms of it, the adrenalin jolts, and eventually that which must be avoided....the numbing.

Speaking of butterflies, someone's giving me some milkweed seed pods and I want to get (or get help with) a patch planted out front. Monarchs need emergency help.

hugs
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

See? There ya go - a worthy endeavor that puts all this online "virtual (and not very nice or real) reality" - into perspective. Mostly I see a lot of jaws (or fingers) flapping... and not a whole getting done; good or bad. So, I'm doing what I can do, with what I've got - and that I know needs to be done or is beneficial here. TRYING to not get sucked into the usual "all these things are happening and you need care and worry about them, even if you can't do anything about them" hucksterism. (They make money off my morbid curiosity and lack of self discipline.)

Put your energy into your senior's outreach!

And with that, I'll end the hijacking of Lighter's thread... sorry Light!

[Hopalong]

Me too, exiting hijack.

Last worditis:

BUTTERFLY ON BUTT (special request).