Author Topic: Friendship Moments: good or bad  (Read 19538 times)

lighter

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Re: Friendship Moments: good or bad
« Reply #120 on: May 23, 2025, 12:28:34 PM »
Hi, Hops:
I wanted to put my thoughts, about your messages to Poet, here.... they're just my gut feelings.  Not right, or on target, mind you.

You extended your little monkey paw, for connection and healing....bc you're whole enough and healed enough to do so.

The Poet sniffed your paw, and whatever is ticking and tocking within her ....shame, mostly, I think .....turned her away, and bragged about herself instead. 

You see it.  We see it.  She can't see it.  She can't see the peace, healing and serenity beyond available through accepting responsibility for her actions and connecting with you to figure it out.

It feels like she holds some higher ground, in her mind.  As though must be right, so you must be wrong, the apologizer, the one letting her off hooks, to stomp boundaries and be the only one with feelings she cares about.....and that might be true.  Might not.

I used to wonder about people who believe taking any responsibility will destroy them....how terrible it must be to live under that heavy wall, unable to accept a piece of their shame, bc there's years and years and years of it, piled on, ready to crush them, should they let their guard down.

It's a lot, but I also believe they, on some level, might understand it won't actually kill them.  Some part of them would rather keep working to hold up the wall, rather than stand naked and vulnerable,in the messy rubble, falling all around them.

Those darn coping strategies
::shaking head::.

And you wouldn't shove her nose in it...shame her....proclaim a win.  You'd listen and support.....I know you would.

Maybe she knows too, on some level, and that scenario so misaligns with her self image, as you've described, she can't reconcile...
can't believe peaceful juice is worth the squeeze.

And the squeeze, for those unfamiliar with surrendering.....those unfamiliar and fearful of what comes next....find holding up the wall less stressful, maybe.  So they hold, refuse their monkey paw and live in the emotional turmoil they've created....piling it higher....more overwhelming.

After family visit, we joke about interactions feeling like monkeys tending to each other, being alarmed together or at odds...so sorry for the references.....but they seem to fit, imo. Insert little monkey ooo ooooos, and you have the full picture.

Your Poet doesn't have the ability to honestly self reflect.....at least, not yet, and that's ok.  You're still ok.  You're considering responses, reaching out, willing to gently connect.  That's a gift Poet might not be able the receive.

Is it co-dependent when we need something, from someone, who just can't give it?  Is it co-dependent to miss the signs, this will never happen.....miss the important  exit for acceptance? To change paths ...maybe not give up, but travel a parallel paths, rather than the same path?  Just....honor oneself more.....and see if dynamics change.

I do want you to know, there's no shame in how you're feeling.  Labeling yourself "needy" hurt me, to read it.

You're human, have old wounds and what feels like a huge loss will ping and echo down childhood corridors, of course it will.

The word codependent-ish pops up....as it does for myself recently, and I think it's OK if we're authentic.....speak our truth and gently state boundaries.....hold them......back ourselves up, rather than betray ourselves, kwim?

I feel you were all of the above.  The ball is in Poet's court.  She'll rise and engage, respectfully, or she'll bounce back into your life, sans any insights......and forge on, expecting you to play the role her image has prescribed you. 

I've done it, but there have to be limits......one must stop sacrificing to the point of betraying self, IME.

Truthfully, the Poet is the needy one....she neeeeeeeds you to play your supporting role in her.....
her......
manufactured self image?  The part she plays isn't an authentic whole being, aware and self reflecting, imo.

I'll stop at the point I'm guessing what age she might be operating at, bc truthfully, I have no idea about any of it.  Just expressing how it's feeling, to me, based on my experiences.

You have options.....how do you feel about them today, ((Hops?))

Lighter

Hopalong

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Re: Friendship Moments: good or bad
« Reply #121 on: May 23, 2025, 04:18:44 PM »
I'm feeling SO much better the last couple days, and it was the first time I realized her chilly-shoulder response actually helped me step back more, a safer distance behind my own boundary.

I can't swear cause and effect, but I slept well two nights running and had unexpected energy during the day that I used to tidy up a lot. I also walked a bit and met friends. Suddenly out of my cave and hungry for simple peace and simple pleasure.

Could be there is a connection to releasing my grief-scraps over Poet and just watching her sail her own boat. Now I feel zero inclination to try to persuade or help her navigate, and all my anger, feeble as it was, has dissipated. I even feel liberated from a weight I hadn't realized I was carrying, and that was too heavy to keep lugging around. I'll see her in the monthly poetry workshop and that's fine. I always respond with authentic feedback (we each do) which she's seemed to appreciate, and I won't be sulking. She'll look for purpose in her poetry-publicity efforts and I'm glad for her. Anything's better than the dark, sodden despair she's often been stuck in. I can hold compassion and space for her, but from a less co-D perspective I hope.

Your thoughtful, realistic-but-positive analyses have really helped too. Thank you so much. Particularly, every time you talked about seeing shame in her, I recognized it even more and see the truth of it. It's so sad to see someone so unhappy when you know there are ways through. But only we can clear our own paths. Everybody's personal jungle is different. I can only wish her well. Thank you.

hugs,
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

lighter

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Re: Friendship Moments: good or bad
« Reply #122 on: May 24, 2025, 11:03:56 AM »
I was thinking ......
the concept of limiting exposure, to certain people,in order to maximize joy, and limit chaos, is a valid one.

The Poet's chaos is within herself, imo. 
She carries it within her ...... it's perhaps rubbing up against your stuff, but it's still hers to own,and feel responsible for, imo.

I'm curious.....as you moved through the Poet's visit.....did you auto-assume or feel responsible for her dysregulation....
OR
was Poet blaming you, sans your buy in?

The blame only works IF we buy into it, at least a little, on some level, IME.

If we're clear on the facts..... there's no pain/confusion/shame/feeling we can/should fix something, during the chaos, IME.

It's nice to read you've created emotional distance.  That's where perspective and choice come into focus, IME.🪷

Lighter






Hopalong

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Re: Friendship Moments: good or bad
« Reply #123 on: May 24, 2025, 01:53:37 PM »
She was blaming me for something that did not happen (me being a "bad host") w/o my buy in. On the other hand, no state of mind (even blamelessness) is 100% pure, so she tried to poke me in my own shame store. (Vulnerability about the house.)

But it didn't go deep. Her verbal attack was so unfair, irrational and just plain MEAN that I felt shielded by my own refusal to buy in. Still do.

Off to visit pre-conception friend with the recovering dog we both adore, and friend and I will sit outside and watch them run each other ragged. Peaceful evening coming up!

Pup got into a nest of baby bunnies (rabbit mama didn't learn the lesson last year and made it in the same crowded perennial bed) again, and their helplessness made me sad and upset. Chased Pup off the patio and gated him out, hoping Mama bunny will get back to them. But the nights are chilly now.

He really is a terrier. Sigh.

I'm bingeing Band of Brothers as my Memorial Day contemplation. Had never seen it and think it was so well done.

hugs
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Hopalong

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Re: Friendship Moments: good or bad
« Reply #124 on: May 25, 2025, 09:27:03 PM »
So...you prescient ones. How do you read this? She wrote that her partner (the jerk) is away for three weeks, and it's triggered everything about abandonment. I realize it's hard for her. But I really could use your perspective on how this lands:

Hope all's well with you and [Pup]. You have him, the sweetie!

I'm just hoping I don't get too depressed but I feel it coming on unless I pull myself out of it. It'll be a test of my ability to handle life alone in the house. That little abandoned child without friends or people around her. ..The monster of the empty sky, the silence. And my friendship with you, not feeling the same either.

Hell or death is being cut off emotionally or physically from all.


I tried to respond kindly but without too much detail, "you're sitting with some very tough feelings," kind of thing. Then suggested a small sweet older dog might be a warm companion. That was about it, but as you've pointed out, it's a pattern, and I'd like to stabilize my part of it. Or be sure I'm going in the right direction.

I think I am. Just looking for support I think.

I had a lovely time today at a picnic with lots of good folks I haven't seen in a while.

hugs
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

lighter

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Re: Friendship Moments: good or bad
« Reply #125 on: May 26, 2025, 12:46:37 AM »
Interesting she mentioned the relationship between you "not feeling the same either."

She's, imo, inching towards her cliff, fearful of falling....reaching out to you, hopeful you'll rescue/react/comfort her, as per usual.

And she understands....she rebuffed you, when you reached out, uncertain, in pain, trying to connect. She's skirting it.....

I guess she tossed in....
 "that little abandoned child, without friends or people around her...."
to activate your compassion.  I'd say she's weaponizing it, but I don't really know.

If it was me..... I'd resist the pattern to rush in and save her.  I think that's your plan.

I'd get very curious about how much compassion she extends, or not.

How she reacts to your changing up responses to her request for comfort, and reassurance.  Punishment, cruelty or dysregulation speaks to trauma bonding, IME.

Observe.  Ask questions.  Honestly assess, and accept what you find.
AAA....assess, accept, act.

She'll always be there, on her terms, so no need to fear, she'll disappear, if you decide you want to preserve this connection, no matter what.

You decide if thinge can shift, some, and what you're willing to make do with.....to hang on to the connection.

Her distress will be the best chance of focusing her attention and discussing what's real......I think.  Otherwise, she bats discomfort away with a dismissive assignment of blame.....and you're always going to be the flawed one, imo.

I'm curious if she can peek at her actions....if she can accept she's been hurtful and dysregulated......
or not.

Her message seems to be an invitation, to return to old patterns, I think.  You're welcome to tend to her......but on her terms.

What about your terms?  Reciprocity? You deserve kindness.....honesty.....to be on your own side, as priority, most of all.

What does that look like, in this friendship?  What do you want it to look like?

Lighter

Hopalong

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Re: Friendship Moments: good or bad
« Reply #126 on: May 26, 2025, 12:53:47 PM »
Yep. Yep. Yep.

I'm SO much less stressed since I let it all blow through. I went from acute fear of loss (thanks, Nmom) to feeling lighter, happier and more optimistic. In just days.
Poet's cries of anguish are always extreme ("hell and death") and very dark. I don't doubt at all that this is truly how she feels. Tragically. The change is that I no longer feel agonized that I am not able to heal her agony. I accept fully that I can't fix her. Don't even want to try, now. I am a slow learner, but once I get it, it'll remain clear if I don't remain mindful of all these lessons.

I told her if she'd like to call or Zoom, I can listen and still care. It's true. I'm just not going to drain myself with any more urgent efforts to get her to see herself. (It's "Gosh, what do you think you're going to do?" time.) Maybe her experiences have been so agonizing that she can never heal herself, or she's still charming/disarming her T. Or her fear of facing awful memories (shame triggers) is so extreme that she avoids/deflects/lashes out, whatever. For that, I have compassion, but I am on guard against re-enmeshment. I am not available as a punching bag.

Her random rage or shame-spurt helped me back way off and look. As have you, Lighter. And Amber too.

I did think one image she wrote was poetic and powerful: "...the monster of the empty sky" -- it must be an awful way to feel. I've never known anyone with such terror of their own company. And it's very sad. But not mine to fix.

I hope she gets a dog.

hugs and thanks,
Hops
PS--Appreciate you bringing up reciprocity, especially when it comes to kindness and honesty. I DO want that in order to co-create a healthy friendship. With Poet, and one other old friend (the Hollywood-adjacent one) the kindness is usually there, but not the honesty. So, I'm more detached from both, and enjoying theh prospect of finding new friends. I don't want to plunge back into my old codependent stuff, and intend to work more consistently to NOTICE when it starts to kick up.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2025, 12:58:20 PM by Hopalong »
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

lighter

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Re: Friendship Moments: good or bad
« Reply #127 on: May 26, 2025, 11:18:29 PM »
Oh, bother.....it really does boil down to co-dependent brain ruts, doesn't it?

My brain wanted to complicate it....see it different ways, add and subtract, but it's just old ruts....and climbing out, me'thinks.

You're out.....well done, ((Hops.))

New pathways built stronger, yup yup yup.

Lighter


Hopalong

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Re: Friendship Moments: good or bad
« Reply #128 on: May 27, 2025, 01:19:20 AM »
She is dwelling in terror, because he's not in the house. She wrote again, veering from what-will-I-do-when-he-dies to maybe-a-dog to saw-my-D (but she had pain so I felt irrelevant), etc. I've noticed before that when someone is ill or hurting around her she gets impatient, even irritated. It's odd.

We might zoom tomorrow. I don't feel much about it except the sense that for me, things are and will be different. I'm going to be kind but not solicitous. Gentle and not attached to an outcome. Present and calm. Open but not vulnerable.

It's sinking in that I didn't realize just how unstable she feels, and sometimes acts. I think she's heading for or in crisis, and I don't want to dedicate myself to being the main answer. She does have friends there and a good T she trusts, so I hope she'll also turn to them.

hugs
Hops

PS--Ugh. Right after I wrote the above I had one chest pain, tachycardia and broke into a sweat. Combined, those can be heart attack if it doesn't stop in five minutes, but I think it's settling down. They are also combined with some panic attacks. So I don't know which it is/was, but don't feel like heading for the ER. If it recurs I will though.

What might be true is all this thinking about Poet's darkness and chaos is scary for me. I don't want to join her and I wish I didn't feel this way about the Zoom.

« Last Edit: May 27, 2025, 01:49:39 AM by Hopalong »
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

sKePTiKal

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Re: Friendship Moments: good or bad
« Reply #129 on: May 27, 2025, 09:25:50 AM »
It might be handy to have a tech glitch around the time of the zoom, Hops. Yeah, it's dishonest. BUT if it's causing this level of anxiety/stress reaction - honor YOUR NEEDS first. Better a white lie, than a trip to the ER.

Now, about poet-friends N-spot(s)... what Lighter has written is insightfully (probably) true. YOU are to be THERE FOR HER... to meet her needs... but when you express a need for connection (with boundaries)... she nosedives. And catastrophizes. Dramatizing her emotional situation as bait to reel you back in. You sense this, don't you? I'm pretty sure you do. Even commiserating, her needs are more important than yours.

She has plenty of resources to help her, if she's heading into a crisis. She can even call her maligned husband; just because he's away doesn't mean he's dead yet. I think I'll prescribe for you a message: "I'm so sorry you're going through this. It must suck. What are you going to do about it?"

A significant chunk of "fear of being alone" is based on not trusting oneself... which starts with accepting your weak spots/coping mechanisms/self-sabotage. Yep; that requires dealing with any shame that exists too, as well as taking accountability for the self-created Hell... AND DOING SOMETHING DIFFERENT. A lot of the time, this fear is based on what someone's imagination creates and NOT on reality. But a person doesn't ever know that until they walk that.

Maybe she needs help doing that; that's what her T is for. You, aren't her T. Not your job to help her "see the light". You aren't responsible for how she got this way either. So you shouldn't shoulder the burden of consoling her, keeping her company, or showing her the path that's hers alone to walk. (Fact is: you can't truly know HER path... just see common elements that we all deal with.)

Yeah, my compassion well is on the dry side these days. So many people have been sipping at it. Being an introvert at nature... I minimize my contact with those who are "needy" and spend time meeting my own needs as best I can. I get quiet; don't interact; focus on my own transient or lingering feelings. Crawl into the turtle shell until I have more energy for that kind of interacting again. It certainly feels good to me. Other people can take a number and exceptions will be made for people who reciprocate.

It's important not to just focus on the inward universe on this topic; but also look at what you're DOING in the outward one... it's kinda amazing what you might stumble across in the process.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

lighter

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Re: Friendship Moments: good or bad
« Reply #130 on: May 27, 2025, 10:44:41 AM »
Whew boy, creating, and cultivating the ability to NOT fall/get dragged into other people's reactive rabbit holes is a thing, IME.

Whether you take that Zoom, or not, you have the chance to rise up, rest in non judgemental awareness, and be more responsive/able to respond to the Poet/those suffering around you, IME.

Oh, to auto-remain calm/feel safe/not get thrown into survival mode.

I agree with, Amber, btw.  Self care should always lead.  You can care about Poet in the way you need to.  You don't have to care in the way she needs......or the ways you have in the past.

Asking Poet what SHE intends the do about her distress is such a great way to shift the narrative, and get out from under feeling responsible. Good reminder, Amber.

Allowing the Poet to share her personal load hasn't helped her evolve, IME. 

If your "help" allows Poet to remain mired.... it's not help, IME. It's a well intended form of enabling.....joining her, there, in her darkness. 

Time to recalibrate, as you have been doing.  Time to cross your arms, comfort yourself with gentle shoulder pats, and breathe.

Retain emotional distance.....see her, below, in her suffering, and know....you offer less if you join her in that darkness, IME.

I sure hope you stop having physical symptoms, Hops. 

Lighter



Hopalong

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Re: Friendship Moments: good or bad
« Reply #131 on: May 27, 2025, 06:40:56 PM »
Feeling much better. I love my doc; she and I did a telehealth talk about various stuff and she is SO good. Thorough, understanding, meticulous. She hears me about all sorts of things and gives strong advice gently.

Poet called. I had emailed her a long explanation about me being in charge of my own codependent leanings, and how if I see her waving from a tar pit again with just one nostril showing, I'm going to back away from the edge of empathy and take care of myself. She approved wholeheartedly and didn't want to cause angst.

She was apologetic about her dark messages ("nihilistic melancholy" I called them) effect on me, and seemed to understand completely. So that was good and my job is to tend my side of the fence.

Good fences make good neighbors.

hugs
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

sKePTiKal

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Re: Friendship Moments: good or bad
« Reply #132 on: May 28, 2025, 07:52:20 AM »
Well done!

I'm glad she's starting to own her impacts on you, too. There is probably a way forward now, where it was hard to see one initially.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

Hopalong

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Re: Friendship Moments: good or bad
« Reply #133 on: May 28, 2025, 03:28:52 PM »
I feel I was carrying HER backpack of what you called stinky muck or something similar.

The real lesson is once again, that's on me. She's Nistic, insecure, alla that. But mostly I think it's just the usual oblivion of the self absorbed. So odd for a good poet to be that way, imo. But in terms of her life experience, it's probably very subconsciously appropriate. I noticed way back she rarely writes in the first person.

Usually when I get close in a connection, I do nearly anything to avoid confronting, showing real anger or fedupness. The pattern seems to be I forgive nearly anything until someone crosses a certain line, and then [click] I'm ready to leave.
Really and fully on my own side.

With M, it was the slow realization that he was blowing smoke, troooly an overt N, and toying with my vulnerabilities. With Hollywood friend, that she either could not or would not listen, and tried to control me in ways I couldn't handle any more. It was so one way, and is less so now since I backed off a lot and expect nothing. With Poet, feeling that I was becoming where she dumped the compost.

Sometimes it's very hard to be alone. But it's worse to be unheard or disrespected in any relationship. Easier not to have one, or have a few shallower ones if need be.

And the real lesson is that I need to discern who people are much much sooner. To pay more attention to small early signals. To not throw my heart over the bar so soon. To require reciprocity and if it's not forthcoming, to back away. I've had too many one-sided attachments in my life and none have been ultimately good for me.

hugs and much gratitude,
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

lighter

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Re: Friendship Moments: good or bad
« Reply #134 on: May 28, 2025, 05:25:28 PM »
I'm glad you're feeling better, Hops.

Light