Cutting my parents off, but I have kids... what to do?

[nihil]

Hello all,

I have been thinking about this for the last couple of days. I had suppressed practically all my childhood memories. Just recently (as I have mentioned in another thread) my memories came back in droves. These memories include beatings, indifference, constant belittling, emotional invalidation, etc.etc.etc. Lots of nasty stuff. Also, this I have always remembered, I wanted to kill myself at the age of 4. My parents always found this immensely funny (go figure) and never even thought about asking themselves why a four year old child would want to die. I even tried once to hang myself (at the age of four). These days I am getting partial flashbacks of something really terrible that has happened to me but when the details start to get focussed, I just start crying and can't process the memory. I have this stuck under a whole pile of other crap I have to process, so I tell myself that I will get back to this later.

Anyway... I don't trust my parents anymore. I don't ever want to see them again. BUT... I have two daughters and they enjoy being with my parents (my parents cover them with barbies, trash, junk-food and whatever appeals to our lower instincts of instant gratification - even though I have told them hundreds of times not to do this). I don't want to hurt my children. I think they will feel punished if I forbid them to have contact with my parents. They are 8 and 10 years old. I know that they could understand a part of it, but they haven't a clue of what kind of abuse my parents have dished out at me (this I have validated last weekend during a long conversation with my younger brother).

Plus, there are legal issues which could surface if ever I decide to completely cut them out of my life. So if anyone with insights into this could help, it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanx, take care all.

[jaybee]

hi, nihil,

your message struck a chord with me.   several years ago, with the help of a psychologist and the understanding of our siblings, one sister and i broke our relationships with our poisonous mother.

for us, it is important not to let our problems with our mother color the next generation's relationships with their grandmother.  i do not have children; however, i have never said anything negative about my mother in front of my neices and nephews (though i have laughed at their stories).  my sister has supported her children visiting their grandmother; she helps her children process their experiences with their grandmother when they return home.

my neices and nephews are being raised in healthy environments.  they all recognize that it is not pleasant to be around my mother.  however, if my mother had been able to be nurturing to her grandchildren, it would have been a shame to deprive them of that relationship.  as it is, my mother wonders why none of her grandchildren want to visit.

the questions that come to my mind are:

- how important are the things that your parents are doing that you've asked them not to do?  (for me, safety would be the important issue.)

- how safe is it for your children to visit their grandparents?  would they be in any physical danger?  (my mother is not physically abusive.)

- would your parents do or say anything to your children in order to hurt you?  if so, what?  (my mother told my neice/nephew about unpleasant experiences in my sister's life that my sister had felt her children were too young to hear; however, she took that as an opportunity to talk openly about her own mistakes)

- what transportation could you organize for your children?  if you were to cut off contact with your parents, is there a spouse/partner/friend who could drive your children to your parents?  (with us, the distances are large and, for an extra fee, the children traveled on the planes alone.)

- how will you react when your parents phone to organize a meeting with your children or whatever?  (i used an answering machine and call display; my sister installed a children's phone line.)

i don't know anything about the legal issues you allude to.  i rewrote my will when i realized how poisonous my mother is.  my lawyer explained that, in our jurisdiction, it's difficult for parents to leave children out of their wills; however, there is no expectation for children to include their parents.  could you speak with a lawyer in your area in order to allay your legal concerns?

i hope you can find a way to take care of yourself, as well as your children.  good luck.

[Simon46]

Hi Nihil:

Our situations sound very similar. I have two daughters about the same ages as yours. When I finally confronted my father on his behavior, he said he wanted us to “disengage and live our lives in peace.”  He has not called me in over a year.  He did the same thing to both of my sisters for 2 or 3 years. I think it is partly “punishment” and a show of disapproval for my “insolent behavior.” It is the extended silent treatment. I recognize that it also protects him from having to look too closely at his own pain and admit to the many mistakes he made as a parent.

As a result, he has also not seen his granddaughters in that length of time or called to speak with them. I am sure that Mom and Dad’s version would be that I am deliberately punishing them by withholding their grandchildren from them, and that I am enjoying it. It is my fault, I am to blame for their pain, I am inconsiderate and selfish, etc. - you know the deal.  As long as they do not speak to me they can continue to believe this. (They would anyway!)

I never talk bad to my daughters about their grandparents, but I did explain the truth to them. Once I cried in front of them and they asked me what was wrong. I explained that Mom Mom and Pi Pi had been really mean to me when I was a kid, that they would sometimes slap me in the face, whip me, and sometimes say mean things, yell at me, and that it made me really sad and really hurt me a lot. My “male instinct” would normally lead me to run into the dark and cry privately and come out and “appear strong” for the children. Luckily, I had had enough therapy to realize that was BS and dishonest, so I chose to be vulnerable and share my pain with my kids. My wife came in the bedroom and we all had a good cry together. It was a touching moment in retrospect and I am so glad that my family is close enough to be that honest and supportive and to share such a moment. They gave me a lot of comfort and I am a lucky man in that regard.

I have never shared much more than that with them, but I would tell them more if they asked.

[nihil]

Hello Jaybee,

Thank you kindly for having taken the time to answer. Here are some answers to your questions.

I do not believe that there is immediate danger but I have always found my father to be somewhat too groping when he handled my daughters. Plus, I have repressed memories which don't want to surface yet (plus all the others that did recently, beatings, humiliation and such). I have had suicidal ideations since the age of 4 and have committed a few attempts already (including one very serious attempt that got me in the hospital and in a crisis center for a few weeks). So in fact, I don't trust them at all. I will never again leave my children alone with them, no matter what.

I don't know what my parents told my kids when I wasn't there, but I do know that they are backstabbing liars, so I can only speculate. Again, I don't trust them on that count either. They have spewed crap on my ex-wife in front of them before, and they are always talking about everybody in a condescending and judgemental manner - I doubt they become happy balanced people just because my kids are there so...

On the transportation issue, it doesn't really apply. They live 45 minutes away. If I decide to let them see my kids, we will arrange a meeting place or an activity beforehand. I will be there.

On the question of having my parents call... They do in fact call and arrange things without asking me. Whenever that happens, I tell my kids we can't then I make sure to plan something else instead with them (if nothing was already planned). My parents bring my kids to crappy dollar stores and pile all kinds of useless stuff on them. They call this "love". When they babysit, it's "here baby, sit in front of the TV". They stuff them up with junk food and basically ignore them. So what's the point? My youngest daughter doesn't care much for them, so she doesn't ask to go see them. But the older one is more sociable, she's always organizing events with her friends, my parents, me, my ex, etc. She likes moving around, seeing people. It might be difficult with her. I'm still thinking about what to tell them and how I should go about removing my parents from my life.

The legal issue : I think I read somewhere that grandparents can obtain legal visitation rights. My parents are disorganized and innefficient, so I doubt they'll want to go to court if ever I tell them to stay completely away. But I'm just trying to see what all the possible fall-back from this could be.

Again, thank you for your reply. It make me think this out some more.

Take care.

[nihil]

Hello Simon,

Thank you very much for sharing your experiences and your wisdom. I think that your experience pretty much sums up mine. I am quite certain that when I do end up confronting my parents with all this, they will freak out and might just decide by themselves to never talk to me again. They won't handle the truth, of that I am almost certain. In fact, they just seem to get worse with time... Poor them...

I do not want to villainize my parents in front of my daughters either. I am quite certain that this whole thing would seem exaggerated to them. When you wrote about the moment when you discussed this with your children and your wife openly, and the reaction that ensued, I related to that. That is how I would want it to happen also. I just want them to know what I feel, and why I don't want to see my parents anymore, in very simple and respectful words. I am certain to be able to do this with dignity and integrity, without trying to accuse my parents, without diminishing them or whatever else of that nature.

I want to make sure that my kids can deal with this without unnecessary trauma and that I respect myself through this ordeal also.

Again, thank you for your words.

Take care.

[Anonymous]

Just a thought here, I have had no direct experience with this so I may be talking out of the wrong end   because I do not have children of my own- but intend to start a family soon and was contemplating how I would handle this if in your shoes.

I was touched by your story Simon and that you were brave enough to show your pain in front of your children as a man.   I think this can do nothing but help... They will see strength in their father for being true to himself.

In both your cases, Nihil and Simon,  I am sure you have already thought of this because you are both working so hard on your health. Have you discussed with your children that while it is not good for YOU to see your parents, that at some point in time you express to them that you would be supportive if they chose to have a relationship with them?... of course, only when you think they are old enough to understand and process their grandparent's behavior (perhaps not even until age 18 - especially in Rob's case where sexual abuse is suspected).

I would hate for the both of you to find that your children resent you later for "preventing" them indirectly from seeing their grandparents.  They may not currently show an interest.. but it is also possible that they are doing this to please YOU, after all, you are the parent they need their love from   .  I think you did this Simon, but I just wanted to call attention for the benefit of perhaps others that are considering this break.

I would imagine this to be difficult when you have chosen to break ties and your instincts tell you that your children need to be protected.  If it is too difficult to allow the kids to spend time with their grandparents when they are younger, I would think it would be enough at least to just convey to your children that when they are grown they certainly should decide  for themselves.

My stepdaughter is 10, and her mother was verbally abused by her alchoholic father when she was a child and a teen and because of it my stepdaughter has learned that "Grandpa W" was a terrible man.  Though they lived in the same town for years, she was never given the chance to see him.  She never asked, because she didn't want to hurt her mother. I don't know yet if this will ever bother her when she is older, but he died this year so she will never get the chance to decide for herself.

I know you are not villianizing your parents to your children.  I just wanted to mention that simply stating that "you can make your own choice and I won't be angry with what you decide" would be beneficial.  Chances are they wouldn't pursue it anyway.. but you have covered your bases when they are adults there will not be any resentment in twenty years when they are doing their own psychological processing!

[CC]

I am really having problems staying logged on today. It keeps booting me out.  Maybe someone is trying to tell me to shut up ( )  sorry for the guest post above, Love, CC

[Tinkergirl]

hi there,

i suppose i will be the voice of dissent about all this granparent visitation.  i am currently in the thick of it, and for those of you without children or direct expereience with this, i'm not trying to downplay your thoughts, but i can't imagine you might feel differently if you were in the thick if it too.

please, please consider the impact this will have on YOU before the impact on your children.  i am nipping this early, as i have a one year old and am pregnant, and i will never allow my mother to ever visit or touch my children, ever.  she has already started sending cards, money (bribes), etc.  i understand your children are older, but they will sense the disdain you hold for your N parents, and your N parents have apparently repeated the cycle of ignoring you and putting their needs first by giving the children junk food, etc.......they are YOUR children and YOUR rules should be paramount to how good it makes your parents (the 'grandparents') feel...i'm sure they get pleasure out of disrespecting your parenting skills.  

i caution you to reach out to other boards, other people who have direct experience, and also seek a counselor who will support your decision to cut them out completely.  your children are much more concerned with your happiness, not their grandparents.  you don't have to badmouth them or ever tell them the complete truth until they are older.  they may be upset at first, but i;m sure you would have them a little hurt and confused by your decision rather than waiting until your parents do something that will hurt them (they will...and i'll put a guarantee on it).  i would be suicidal for my guilt and homicidal toward the grandparents if anything would happen.  why take that chance?

you don't owe your children anything but a loving, respectful and nurturing environment.  your parents are feeding off your children because they know they can continue to hurt you.  they are using them, and the children are too naive and trusting to understand the pain and anger you are experiencing.  please, please consider what i am saying.  i am going through intense therapy about this issue right now, and just had to send back money and cards to the N mother who only loves to see herself as a grandmother, not to really connect with my child.  it is not easy, but it really is possible.  you just need to be your own champion.  please take care of yourself first, as you are not able to truly take care of your children until you take care of yourself first.

ps don't worry about grandparent visitation...most Ns are not 'put together' enough to make it through an evaluation.  unless you have extremely connected/litigious parents, i would again focus on your feelings and not the 'what ifs' in your situation.

[I_am_mine]

I've been thinking about this a lot lately, also.  I have 3 teenage boys who have not seen their grandfather (my Ndad) since the beginning of July, when my mom passed away.

Whenever Ndad's not getting enough attention from me, he starts asking why I haven't brought "the grandsons" over in so long.  He doesn't have a clue that while mom was alive, she was the one I brought them over to see; she was a very gentle and loving person, despite 50+ years of Ndad's abuse.

One of the last times I brought my middle son to visit his grandparents, my dad took the opportunity to absolutely rip me to shreds right in front of my son - I finally had to take my son and just walk out of his house, while Ndad was in mid-rant!  My son is still a bit upset by what he witnessed.

My boys have watched Ndad verbally/emotionally abuse my mom, me, my sister, and they've been the target of his degrading and humiliating remarks themselves.  I've told Ndad several times to lay off my boys, or I wouldn't expose them to him any more; each time he cleaned up his act for awhile, but always returned to familiar ways.  My boys are all vey uncomfortable around him, and would probably rather have a root canal than spend time with him.

When mom was alive, I felt I had to bring the boys to visit their grandparents (altho less frequently as they got older and Ndad got meaner), because they loved their grandma so much, and she loved them unconditionally, and she was a very good "buffer" - helping to protect the boys from Ndad's venom as best she could. Now that she's gone, tho...well, I'm happy to say I don't feel guilty for not making my boys visit with their Ngrandpa.

If mom hadn't been so wonderful, I probably would have stopped the visits long ago.  I do feel very guilty when I think back on so many of the things Ndad said to my boys, even tho I stood up to him much better when he was abusing my sons than I ever did when he was abusing me.

It's a horrible thing when the people who are supposed to love you the most, hurt you the worst.  

bobbie

[Nic]

Amen and Amen to Tinkergirl!
You are So clear on this dynamic you deserve a medal!!!! Yes yes yes!
I don't have children either but if I did it would be my reaction ABSOLUTELY!
Again, it's not a question of being nice and trusting and wanting it all to work out.  I sure connect with your frustration with hanging on to the high road with people who don't even know where or what it is, by this I mean the N grandparents of course.
It is so crucial for children to not be exposed to destructive narcissistic parenting, that is the issue!
What a GREAT post Tinkergirl. It's not a black and white issue, you've thought this out so well..I'm almost jumping for joy at the truth you speak! It's about the children and protecting them..I'm sure your kids are already well on the way to not being the umteenth generation of Adult children of Narcissists.  WEll done, well done indeed!
Nic    

[nihil]

Hello all,

A little update on my situation.

I have been reading up on these issues and thinking very hard about what to do. My thoughts and emotions went from one extreme to another :

Option 1 - I hate them for what they did to me plus all the abuse I still can't bring to the surface yet (getting there... it hurts big time) and I don't want to see them anymore.

Option 2 - I need time and distance to heal and to understand. I will ask them to not contact me or my kids for the next 6 months (an approximation based on my rate of solving emotional issues - but I think that it will take lots more time. Looking up on therapy right now.)

Option 3 - I try to understand them and all the pain they suffered, and I still see them maybe once a month (for the kids' sake, and because I don't want to unduly hurt my parents). Planned outings, my kids never sleep over, I don't accept junkfood and junk entertainment anymore.

So, I was balancing all these options the last couple of days. Then 3 days ago, my mother decided that she hadn't seen the kids in a long time (2 weeks...) so she told my daughter over the phone that she would be over to my place, without asking if it was ok. I hadn't told my daughters yet of what was going on with my parents, so when I found out that my mother (puke) was coming over, I did my best not to show my anger.

So she came over, asked them if they wanted to go to the restaurant, then they just bought hot-dogs, sat in their car with the kids, ate, then left. They didn't come in my house, just took them out, fed them trash then left. Hit and run. They get their narcissistic fix by hurting me again, and by using my kids. I was cooking supper for them when the doorbell wrang. She didn't even ask me if I had anything planned. She just doesn't give a shit about my life (recently, I told her that I was feeling suicidal, she said : "Well, I hope you have life insurance." What a bitch!).

Today : just reread Tinkergirl's post and I think it has solidified my position on the whole issue. I keep telling myself how much better I would feel if I didn't see them at all anymore. I found out that same day that my mother had been off-loading alot of personal crap on my daughter regularly on the phone, telling her how everybody else is just mean, that she's a victim and alot of other emotionnally manipulative garbage. I can't take this anymore. I think that I have my answer right there...

I'll think about it some more for a few days, try to talk to my kids about this issue, without forcing them to take sides while listening carefully to their words and emotions, then I'll think some more, then I'll take a final decision.

Thank you all for your precious input.

Take care of your selves.

PS I found a really useful e-book on depth therapy which explains how childhood trauma affects our adult lives. It's sort of "fringe" experimental, but the words really really REALLY moved me. I think that it might be worth looking up. I am no expert, this could be total crap. Here's the link :

http://www.paulvereshack.com/

[Tinkergirl]

hi again,

thanks nic and nihil for your supportive posts on my opinion about this subject...

nihil....PLEASE if you have any serious thoughts of suicide, and if those thoughts are directly related to your horrible, horrible N parents (the life insurance comment has really riled me up) then i urge you to immediately cut them off.  you don't owe anyone an explanation right now.  you NEVER owe your parents an explanation or respect.  they haven't shown it to you, do NOT go out of your way to not "unduly hurt" your parents.  they do not deserve the attention and respect you are granting them right now.  

also, if it is clear your mother has negatively affected your daughter, i really challenge you to consider the damage you are exposing her to.  didn't you wish as a child there was another adult who would recognize and intervene to help you escape the wrath of your parents?  well now you ARE the parent and you need to intervene...not negotiate...with  your daughter.  (while i appreciate the fact you want to talk this situation over with the kids, they will not and should not be exposed to/negotiated with about the abuse issues...they are not old enough to understand...they need protection...not to be put in the middle of adult issues) she needs to be protected, not exposed to hurtful language and behavior....she would much rather have you be a healthy, happy mom who doesn't have suicidal thoughts than have a distant and depressed mother with occasional visits from a grandmother who is at best hurtful and at worst abusive.  

nihil, you've really hit a nerve for me and i'm deeply concerned about you and while i know i am being rather forceful in my opinions on your topic, i just am truly concerned for your life and your children's well-being.  please don't put a timeline on distancing yourself from your parents...it takes however long it takes to really feel your anger and emotions...it may be six months, it may be never.  it will not be easy for you, but suicide is not an option.  your life is worth so much and those children would be devastated without their mom...they are getting a taste of it now because you aren't allowing yourself to become the real you due to the horrible guilt, frustration and anger you are harboring over your parents role in your current life.  don't limit yourself on healing.  you had a choice to heal as a single adult, but now it is your responsibility to heal yourself as a mother and protect those children, above all else.  please take care and keep us informed.

[Anonymous]

nihil....PLEASE if you have any serious thoughts of suicide, and if those thoughts are directly related to your horrible, horrible N parents (the life insurance comment has really riled me up) then i urge you to immediately cut them off.  you don't owe anyone an explanation right now.  you NEVER owe your parents an explanation or respect.  they haven't shown it to you, do NOT go out of your way to not "unduly hurt" your parents.  they do not deserve the attention and respect you are granting them right now.  

also, if it is clear your mother has negatively affected your daughter, i really challenge you to consider the damage you are exposing her to.  didn't you wish as a child there was another adult who would recognize and intervene to help you escape the wrath of your parents?..... she needs to be protected, not exposed to hurtful language and behavior....she would much rather have you be a healthy, happy mom who doesn't have suicidal thoughts than have a distant and depressed mother with occasional visits from a grandmother who is at best hurtful and at worst abusive.  

nihil, you've really hit a nerve for me and i'm deeply concerned about you and while i know i am being rather forceful in my opinions.....it will not be easy for you, but suicide is not an option.  your life is worth so much and those children would be devastated without their mom...they are getting a taste of it now because you aren't allowing yourself to become the real you due to the horrible guilt, frustration and anger you are harboring over your parents role in your current life.  don't limit yourself on healing.  you had a choice to heal as a single adult, but now it is your responsibility to heal yourself as a mother and protect those children, above all else.  please take care and keep us informed.

Tinkergirl, you may feel you're being "forceful" - I feel you're being honest and very clear about your feelings.  I agree with everything you said, especially the parts I've quoted above.

You are so right, once we have children, it's our obligation to use any and all resources to make/keep ourselves as healthy as possible, in order to NOT pass this craziness on to our children.  I've been seeing the signs in my own sons for awhile, and there were probably earlier signs I didn't recognize.  I've been trying to deal with Ndad for such a long time, but when I saw signs of damage in my sons, both from Ndad and my own unhealthy ways of dealing with him and protecting my sons, my quest for health became URGENT!  

We have a choice...the children don't...I agree with you that it's imperative for us to make the right choices, unless we're willing to sacrifice our children as we were sacrificed.  I'm finding out that the more decisions/choices I make for the good health of my sons, the healthier I'm getting...my sons are truly a blessing, in ways I'm only beginning to realize...

bobbie

[I_am_mine]

that was my post, directly above, not used to this board yet  

Leave it to a newbie....    

bobbie

[rosencrantz]

Nihil - For what it's worth, my mother had only two outcomes for my life : suicide or a mental institution.  And when she comes anywhere near me, even now, those are still the only two overwhelming options open to me.

But I now have a family of my own - and when I am with them, mentally and emotionally, those two options just do not exist within me at all.

It's not rocket science is it?  

My son is now ten years old.  He thinks his grandmother is a really nice person on the basis of frequent gifts of money and short telephone chats over a period of about three or four years.

What values is that relationship teaching him?  And how do I explain to him the inevitable 'gaps' in their relationship.  Whatever I say, he will blame himself, believe himself inadequate or 'wrong' in some way to have caused her sudden disinterest.  Or it's my fault for not being nice enough to her (!)

It had always been my intention for them to have a relationship.  But I didn't understand my mother's narcissism.  Now I understand fully the implications of this disorder, I would not ask any child to try to cope with such a manipulative relationship.  It is far too complicated and damaging.  

Other people do not exist for narcissist except in terms of functions or roles, certainly not as valued individuals.  What does that do to a child's self-esteem?  Children do not have the capacity to do anything other than take that at face value : I do not exist, I am not valued.  These are not messages which lead to self-esteem, happiness and success as an adult.

With regard to explaining to children - if our own friends and family don't comprehend the impact of a narcissistic parent or spouse (quote : they don't mean it, they love you really) then how can we expect children (with their more simplistic viewpoint) to understand.

Just don't go there.  You are their parent and you take the decisions about health and safety and things beyond their understanding. Please don't put such a difficult decision on their shoulders when they don't have the knowledge or the sophistication to make the decision. They'll only feel guilty whoever they choose.  

I have so much wanted everyone in the world to make their own decisions, not influenced by me (and yet passionately wanting to 'make a difference'!) - but that's 'us' adult children of narcissistic parents, isn't it.

What we need to do is to take responsibility for our place in the world and stand up for what is right and good and healthy and true and sane.

My mantra : Just do it!
R