Anything

[mum as guest]

2cents: Your post hit a nerve.
I, also, was taught to supress, deny or otherwise ignore my feelings of anger or anything painful.  I understand why my parents did this, as they had nine children....and I can imagine, the chaos and sheer terror it would have incited in any parent to have that many personalities expressing themselves.  I don't blame/excuse my parents, or really offer any judgement on it, but I do understand where it came from.

For me, expressing anger or anything really powerful translated into my feeling that anything other than "hunky dory, everything is ok" expressions of emotion were verboten and I should instead spend all my energy spreading happiness everywhere I went.  I still do that, and have to be aware of when I am doing it, what my motivations are. It's funny, but the one thing I like most about myself is the one thing I hate most also (this "nice" thing).
 I need to always be aware of the all important step of staying still inside my "negative" feelings...not moving through too quickly...not negating them so that I can "move on" to happier things in a hurry.  My not exploring the dark stuff has caused more pain for me in the long run.  I need to constantly remind myself that to move through it, I really need to get into it first.


I am realizing that it's a choice to be this way or not.  I see it differently now.  I DO get really mad, and I DO have a right to be mad about things.  My emotions are real, and I get to own them.  This sounds so..."duh!" but it is something I struggle with all the time!  Here is what I practice saying (as little me.....) "Listen to me, damnit....I know you have a bunch of other kids and I am smallest but NOTICE ME!!!!!"

I learned how to be noticed by being sweet.  When I wasn't sweet and kind, people would say: how selfish of you...don't you know there are others with feelings too?  And "others" became more important than little me.  Thus it began....and I learned that in being sweet there was a kind of power, but it was pretty fake.  I was a great actor when I studied theater, and I don't doubt why.

I married a man who was angrier than me but whose unresolved anger caused him to rage relentlessly or drink or both.  Divorcing him meant that I had to face my own demons....(which I didn't do at first, just married another jerk).  

Anyway, I don't really have a decisive take on everything anyway.  I am sometimes soooo confused that I have to say "whatever" about myself.  
I am pretty sure that the secret lies in knowing that we don't know everything, in having faith in what is good......but who knows, I may be wrong!!!

Good news is: awarenss hurts.....but it heals.  So I am off to my therapist today, and am grateful that I read this thread and wrote this.  I have lots to air with her today! Thanks.

[2cents]

Mum,

I just can't get the quote thing to work but can I just say you have described EXACTLY what I go through with the whole niceness and sweetness thing, and so very very eloquently? "My emotions are real, and I get to own them."  Amen. Now what I want is to

a:) acknowledge them    
b:) understand them and
c:) express them

I am glad if I have helped in any way, however small, and when I can do the above three things there's gonna be a party and you're all invited! Thanks so much,

2cents

[noteBOUTtension2mum]

well mum
i were a reading somewhere online
that all personality disorders have in common
unresolved anger and frustration
and i suppose the type of
what are there now ..16 personality disorders
the way they dont properly deal
and then improperly get distorted
by this unresolved anger
determines aspects of the personality disorder...

hmmm
but unresolved issues are not just common
to personality disorders
and now i cant recall how
such was particularly linked
to personality disorders..
ifn i come across it
.. i might plug it in here later
or if anyone else can plug it in in a post...

yes my disorder is
a disturbance about certain kinds of punctuationing ....

[2cents]

Don't quite understand why all those emoticons came out towards the end of my post?

Hope it still makes some sense,

2cents

[b angry and sin not]

methinks
there be such a thing as righteous anger
and it relates to
be slow to anger
and
be angry and sin not

and to this too
Think on This ...
. . to meet the disturbing factors with as much joyousness as if they were bringing pleasure in the material sight, will alter . . . much in the heart and mind of the seeker. For that which is is a result of the thinking of individuals as related one to another.

Edgar Cayce Reading 610-1

[mum]

hey, 2cents.  Glad to find a fellow "trapped in nice" person.  I think the emoticons were cool, even if they were a mistake!

[Anonymous]

Hi all:

Hey Mum thanks: I love your ideas and writing too.  I mean it.  You look deeply at things and then somehow make the simple meaning clear, so often.  I miss you when you don't post (but I understand there is life after the net).

Re Your ex:  What a wasted life!  What pain on himself and others!  Practically sinfully sad and frustrating.  Such a disease!!!!!!                

Thanks too for the article.  Will try looking it up and if I find a link, I'll post it (or if anyone beats me to it......great!!!).
 

"We can supress anger or act it out, eihter way making things worse for ourselves and others. Or we can practice patience, wait, experience the anger and investigate its nature."

Makes sense to me.  If only the whole world were trying for it eh?  Can you imagine??   Makes me enthused about heaven, if they'll only let me in!!  

I guess what I'm saying is, sometimes terrible things happen or are done to us, and in that case it is a correct response to get angry.

I think so too sometimes and sometimes when terrible things happen the best response is to be cool, calm and collected....and plan a way away....and THENNNNNNN.....allow the anger to be released appropriately.

I see what you're saying though.......you're passive.  Hummmmm.
So the problem isn't really in feeling the anger, you feel it alright, it's in expressing it....in a way that doesn't scare you......in a way that seems ok??

my inner child has been very badly let down by my inability as an adult to express anger in an appropriate and adult way.

So, what you need then, is to learn to express your anger!
Now there's something doable.

being ABSOLUTELY PARALYSED and unable to take any action whatsoever.

Wow!  So you don't have a problem with expressing rage then?  
(just kidding 2cents.  trying to make you smile).

Ok.....so......paralyzed eh???  Well.  It almost sounds like fear to me.
Were you afraid?  Afraid to fight for what you deserved?  Is it fear that was actually the problem?   Are you afraid of anything specific now?

My depression has pretty much gone, but has been replaced by a terrible, life-draining, soul-destroying apathy.

Apathy?  Lack of feeling?  A bit Numb??  Fear can do that too.  Are you sure you're not seriously afraid to feel or afraid of something???

The thing is, at heart I'm a passionate soul, but ALL emotions - good and bad - have been suppressed as I am unable to allow myself to CONNECT with my self or my voice.

Wait a minute.  Let me get this straight.  You're passive, paralyzed, slightly depressed (almost not depressed....depression is mostly gone), apathetic and passionate???

I'm not making fun here 2cents.  I'm trying to make sense of it because I'm confused.  How can that be??  Something's gotta give.  I'm not denying your feelings, or lack of them, but you just described a conflicting emotional state.

Passive - accepting or submitting without objection or resistence, submissive.

Paralyzed - unable to move or act, impaired progresss.

Depressed - low in spirits, dejected, sluggish, suffering intense sadness, etc.  (only slightly so, in your case).

Apathetic - feeling slow, lack of interest, concern, feeling little or no emotion, unresponsive....

Those go together like salt and pepper and garlic (or other favorite) but this:

Passionate - capable of having or dominated by powerful emotions, wrathful by temperament, showing or expressing strong emotion etc.

Are you saying this passionate person resides inside of you and is dying to get out???  But you are unable.......UNABLE....to allow the connection between this and yourself/voice???

Maybe you are able, if you figger out what's stopping you from letting passionate 2cents talk to the world?  Is it scary?  Could it be fear again?

I am not violent, or full of anger, but I have been HURT and been unable to EXPRESS my hurt. Other people express their hurt to me, but I cannot do the same to them.

I'm so sorry that you are feeling all of this conflicting stuff, 2cents.  If you feel hurt inside and unable to express it, then my best guess is that this is causing you the most distress.  Again, what is keeping you from expressing that hurt?  Could it be fear????

As for rage and triggers, I think rage is essentially something that is constantly under the surface and it comes out at unspecified moments and at unspecified targets. Usually someone who is raging cannot be asked "What are you angry about"? because they will not be able/willing to give a real, true answer.

Yes, I agree for some people, this is probably quite the case.  My only arguement/challenge/differing opinion here though is that it's not the rage that's the problem......it's not controlling the URGE to release the rage, in an appropriate manner that's the problem.  People like this.....full of so much volitile anger....are maybe afraid to let it out too????  And then....they suddenly give in to the urge....they choose to let go......and holymoleymacaroni what an explosion!!!!  Who knows??  I don't because I'm not full of rage, I can assure you, but I grew up where it was a normal, frequent occurrence and it wasn't pretty.

GFN, I agree with you about losing control and it being an excuse. The problem I have is that when I am angry I am AFRAID that I will lose control, and it's that FEAR that causes me to suppress the anger,

There we go.  I should have read your whole post before starting mine but that's ok...I guess I guessed right so all is well and all that.  Yes, 2cents.

Fear

Now that's a discussion that keeps me hopping because it almost seems like the strongest, most influential emotion, the root of many other emotions, to me.  But maybe I'm 1/2 nuts or worse (heehee....maybe not....that's the real scary part!!!   ).

You know what I think 2cents, I think you might just need practice.  Let's face it....you seem to have been repressing all these not so nice feelings for along time and you don't seem happy about it, it doesn't seem like it's helping you in your life, right?  It almost sounds like it's building up and building up and now....rather than go into it.....it feels better, safer, more comfortable to just shut down....be numb????  Am I close???

If so why not try something different because what you seem to be doing, isn't working for you?  

The thing is..........the only way is to face the fear.

Sorry to say, 2cents, it's gotta be done.  If you let it rule, you'll probably continue to repress and suppress and apatheticallyparalyze all that wonderful, amazing passion that's lying inside you.....just waiting to come out and live and bring so much to your life and others!!  

So what next?  More later ok?  That's enough of my yacking on the subject for now, plus I need to think some more on it, plus, maybe I'm boring you, plus......I can't think of any more excuses but give me time and I will.    

Mum wrote:

For me, expressing anger or anything really powerful translated into my feeling that anything other than "hunky dory, everything is ok" expressions of emotion were verboten and I should instead spend all my energy spreading happiness everywhere I went. I still do that, and have to be aware of when I am doing it, what my motivations are. It's funny, but the one thing I like most about myself is the one thing I hate most also (this "nice" thing).

Do you express anger sometimes now, Mum?  What do you do?  Do you always express it or do you release it appropriately, sometimes?   How did you learn?

Answer if it feels ok Mum.  The more ideas the better.

I was a great actor when I studied theater, and I don't doubt why.

Was acting a kind of release too?  Good for you for moving slowly through your emotions now, Mum.  That's a great accomplishment!

 

I am sometimes soooo confused that I have to say "whatever" about myself.

This is good too.....taking a break and trying to figger out exactly what it is you doooo feel?  I do that too sometimes.  And then, what's causing it and how to react/release/respond to it?

I am pretty sure that the secret lies in knowing that we don't know everything, in having faith in what is good.

Can't hurt to keep learning, or hold onto faith and good stuff, imo.

Hope you had a good air with the T Mum!!!    
 
By the way:  THE QUOTE THING:

1.  Left click and slide pointer across text you want to quote until it's highlighted.
2.  Left click on the word:  "Quote" at the top of your message box.
3.  Put pointer back on the highlighted text and click again.

Voila!!

Hey......Cosmic Joe.....can I call you Cos?

You made me giggle with this:

yes my disorder is
a disturbance about certain kinds of punctuationing ....  

Do they have treatment for that???

Enough for one .....next.....later.....I know I missed P's post....can't remember it all now.....back soon to add more.    

GFN

[mum as guest]

Hey, GFN: thanks for the post.
I still have to work hard at expressing myself...actually that's not so much it as: expressing myself meaningfully and with full intention.  It's easy for me to fall into the pattern of making a lot of noise but not really knowing or being fully consious of what the noise is about.  I have no problem expressing my opinion (in case you didn't notice ) but in all that bravada, I am still sometimes terrified of bullies (like my ex) and of being misunderstood.
I am learning to be patient and many many times I have seen that things change while I am just waiting to react or speak...instead of simply doing it and thinking later.  Many times the things I was most worried about or upset about either smooth out or are not such a big deal or something else happens.  In this way, I am much more centered, less reactive.  I still have my convictions, and I stick with them, but they are even more powerful and meaningful now, because I have seen them through many storms and they are still there. I don't have to get up and scream them anymore....I just patiently and persistenly put one foot in front of the other toward my intention....and I have faith the rest takes care of itself. It will...it does.
BTW: therapist was sick ( ) She is like a mom to me, so I am concerned for her health...probably just a cold from people like me crying on her shoulder!

[Anonymous]

Here goes some more.  If your eyes are hurting....too much reading...think of my fingys??

Anger is definitely necessary for us, pointed in the correct direction, although probably not expressed to those people we can't reach?

Good point P.  If they can't be reached, we will probably feel fairly frustrated in the end.  Better to find a nice set of bongo drums and let 'er fly eh?

Childhood anger needs expressing in safe ways....the problem is, it seems to me a lot of childhood anger gets expressed in the world - by mistreating other people (I'm thinking wars etc).

Good old repressed anger.  Did I say it's good to repress anger?  I think I did.  Yes it is....sometimes....maybe.  But a lifetime's worth??  Uh uh....no way.  That builds into repressed rage.....nasty stuff.

Probably better to work through the anger safely

So what's safe?  I wish there were a couple of Inhuit here to let us know.  There is no possible way that they don't feeeeel anger.  They were just taught that it is dangerous/unacceptable to express it toward others.  Therefore.....they must have some really fancy ways of getting it out.

Like carving bone, for instance?
Drum playing?
Rough wrestling games maybe?

So......we end up with two scenarios....of many.

1.  The person today, who is full of pent up, repressed anger gone close to rage.   They need to learn to release their anger appropriately, right?  Or else they may choose to let it explode....allow their urge to rage loose.

2.  The person who is passive, who feels afraid to express that repressed anger.....any anger.  They need to learn to release their anger appropriately too, right?   They may also need more confidence and practice being assertive.

But fear stands in the way of release.
Fear that it will be a terrible, awful experience?
Fear that it will start and not end?
Fear that the really deep anger will somehow hurt worse coming out than it does staying in?

Remember above I wrote that the fear must be faced???

How to face fear???

How do we face fear?

Want to know how I do it?

IGNOR IT.  REPRESS THE FEAR, NOT THE ANGER.

Do I do this alllll of the time?  Ofcourse not.  But mostly when it seems best.  (Sometimes fear is worth paying attention to too, such as when the house is about to burn down).

Where  did I learn this....from some book....some great doctor....some scientist.....some secret place???

From a marital arts instructor.  

Not a genious.  Nobody special.  Just a person teaching basic stuff.

"Ignor the fear and use your anger whenever the enemy attacks".

Or......as adapted to real life......ignor the fear and express your anger appropriately, as necessary.

2cents wrote:

I was told as a child that "it's not nice" to show that you're angry because a: I was a child and b: I was a girl - not necessarily always in that order.

You were taught not to express anger.  I guess.....you will need to relearn.
It's ok to express anger appropriately.   It is a feeling that all people experience, even a girl, even the little girl from the past.   I feel angry, is an ok thing to say.  This will need repetition in order to sink in (unless you are extensively photo memory prone-not me I'm afraid ).

re feeling:

what I want is to

a acknowledge them
b understand them and
c express them

And so you should!  You have already done some quite clearly.  You have been hurt, are slightly depressed, submissive, unable to move or act (tired too??), lack of interest, slow, emotionally, little or no emotion....not in so many words but by definition.  That's good 2cents....putting all that down.

What else?  Are you willing to pretend a little?  Will you write down what you would really like to say to someone who hurt you?  Remember one incident and then pretend to speak to the person.....remember what you felt....remember what it was like for you.....and really put it into words.  I know it's not the same as saying it.....but it is a way of expressing and it might help???

Hey Cos:

Think on This ...
. . to meet the disturbing factors with as much joyousness as if they were bringing pleasure in the material sight, will alter . . . much in the heart and mind of the seeker. For that which is is a result of the thinking of individuals as related one to another.

Edgar wouldn't be Inhuit would he?

GFN

[Anonymous]

Hey GFN,

Where did I learn this....from some book....some great doctor....some scientist.....some secret place???

From a marital arts instructor.

Does your husband know you're taking lessons from a marital arts instructor?    
He's sure one understanding guy if he does.  

mudpup

[Anonymous]

Hiya Cos:

be slow to anger
and
be angry and sin not

Sounds like a contradiction.  Anger is said to be one of the seven deadly sins.  A lot like those great great white white Northerners too eh?

I am still sometimes terrified of bullies (like my ex) and of being misunderstood.

I think we all feel real, intense fear sometimes about something or somebody Mum.  

I just patiently and persistenly put one foot in front of the other toward my intention.

While thinking about the fear or ignoring it?

Sorry your T was sick.  Hope she'll be ok.  I'm glad you have her to air things with and her shoulder to cry on.  (((((Mum))))

Does your husband know you're taking lessons from a marital arts instructor?    
He's sure one understanding guy if he does.

Actually Muddy, those lessons were a long time ago, when I was 16 but they stuck like glue.  That teacher taught me so much about life and attitude, people, reactions, thinking processes, assertiveness, you name it.   All in a few short years.

I highly reccomend martial arts to anyone who lacks confidence and wants to learn how to deal with fear.  Even if you are not the fittest fiddle in the fiesta.....there are clubs that will have classes to suit.  Wonderful stuff!

Here's the link Mum was talking about:

http://www.shambhalasun.com/Archives/Features/2005/March/theanswertoanger.htm

No wonder I've been praying for more patience for so long.

GFN

[mum as guest]

GFN: I am in awe....you computer whiz, you.  (I am a Luddite with these things!!!)
Thanks for the link....
and I think Mud was refering to the spelling "marital" vs "martial"....

[Butterfly]

Guest wrote:

AND THE ONE THAT FOLLOWS
WHERE ONE WAS WONDERING WHAT WAS GOIN ON
..EQUALLY OR MORE WHAT GUEST IS SPEAKING ABOUT
...ONE WONDERS WHAT IS GOING ON
WHAT IS BEING REFERRED TO
AN EVEN MORE INSIDER THING
PERHAPS

 
I'm sorry if I sounded  kinda exclusive in anyway.  Didn't mean to  

2cents wrote:

But how do you please somebody who gets upset if you DO do something (raging and carrying on) and equally upset if you DON'T do something?

Wow, that's a tough one 2cents.  It seems like you wouldn't win with that person no matter what you do.  Perhaps, it's a lose-lose situation with that individual.  I have a few questions, though.  Do you feel it's your responsibility to please that person, or your responsibility to do something in which not to upset that person?  Would you feel you did something wrong if you had upset the person?

 

myself have no children but I do have an inner child that needs protecting too, and believe me when I say that my inner child has been very badly let down by my inability as an adult to express anger in an appropriate and adult way. I'm talking losing money, losing homes, losing relationships and seeing these things happen right in front of my face whilst being ABSOLUTELY PARALYSED and unable to take any action whatsoever.

I struggle a lot with guilt.  I find that guilt paralyses me.  It is a very toxic thing to have in ones thinking.  Guilt literally holds a person back from moving forward with life, psychologically, personally speaking.  So, in your case, I wonder if guilt has anything to do with feeling that you've disappointed your "inner child" and "unable to take any action whatsoever"?

Guilt is such a strong feeling for me still.  Don't really know how to deal with it effectively, yet.  Speaking from my own experience, I think the presence of subconscious guilt has a lot to do with not being able to express anger in such a way that brings productive results.

So I would argue that anger is necessary and even healthy,

I'm with you on that.  But, I would add that anger is only healthy if you don't feel guilty about what you were angry about.


GFN wrote:
 

Like the dork that tried to rob/attack me, in the deep depths of the dark subway station, late at night (where I should not have been alone   ).....who was really looking quite terrified, after I let loose a little on him

Yeah, you sure showed him who was boss!   Obviously, that lunatic was messing with the wrong person, didn't he.   Good for you, GFN!    

Butterfly

[2cents]

Hi all,

GFN, I get what you're saying about anger and fear and letting things out appropriately. All I'm trying to say is that some people - myself included - don't know HOW.

My family was literally in shreds by the time I was 6 years old and I have never recovered from what happened to me as a little girl - I have major issues with abandonment and a whole caboodle of other stuff that I can't deal with properly.  Of course the little me was angry - my life changed forever without even an explanation! I'm not talking about throwing tantrums cause baby bro got the green sweet when i wanted the green sweet, I'm talking where are my brothers, why are they gone, why won't you tell me, why should I be nice when I don't understand?

My mother is dead, and my father behaves as if he is too, and my brothers don't talk about anything real with me, so where is the anger supposed to go? How do I even find it? Most people tell me - get over it, it happened so long ago, but it's determined the course of my life in such fundamentally negative ways and I get no help, no acknowledgement from my family, just like when I was a little girl.

I avoid relationships because I can't handle them,  because I can't handle conflict, so I can't grow, so I can't live, which is how I can be passive, apathetic and passionate all at the same time. This topic - and all your responses - are hitting nerves in me, and I'm glad, cause it makes me mad, it makes me cry, and I express myself. See? And nobody suffers any lasting damage

2cents

[2cents]

2cents: Your post hit a nerve.
I, also, was taught to supress, deny or otherwise ignore my feelings of anger or anything painful.  I understand why my parents did this, as they had nine children....and I can imagine, the chaos and sheer terror it would have incited in any parent to have that many personalities expressing themselves.  I don't blame/excuse my parents, or really offer any judgement on it, but I do understand where it came from.

For me, expressing anger or anything really powerful translated into my feeling that anything other than "hunky dory, everything is ok" expressions of emotion were verboten and I should instead spend all my energy spreading happiness everywhere I went.  I still do that, and have to be aware of when I am doing it, what my motivations are. It's funny, but the one thing I like most about myself is the one thing I hate most also (this "nice" thing).
 I need to always be aware of the all important step of staying still inside my "negative" feelings...not moving through too quickly...not negating them so that I can "move on" to happier things in a hurry.  My not exploring the dark stuff has caused more pain for me in the long run.  I need to constantly remind myself that to move through it, I really need to get into it first.


I am realizing that it's a choice to be this way or not.  I see it differently now.  I DO get really mad, and I DO have a right to be mad about things.  My emotions are real, and I get to own them.  This sounds so..."duh!" but it is something I struggle with all the time!  Here is what I practice saying (as little me.....) "Listen to me, damnit....I know you have a bunch of other kids and I am smallest but NOTICE ME!!!!!"

I learned how to be noticed by being sweet.  When I wasn't sweet and kind, people would say: how selfish of you...don't you know there are others with feelings too?  And "others" became more important than little me.  Thus it began....and I learned that in being sweet there was a kind of power, but it was pretty fake.

Mum,

this is what I was trying to say but you've said it perfectly! Of course it's right to acknowledge others' feelings, but not at the cost of having to maintain a front of 'niceness' in the face of real injustice to oneself  And I also learned to 'move too quickly' and RUSH to make things 'better' on the surface, but that's not facing the truth. We HAVE to explore the dark stuff and understand it and FEEL it so we can understand, explore and FEEL the good stuff, and also learn more about who we really are.

I'm gonna go back and reread cause so much stuff is coming up and coming out and I just wanna thank everyone again.

2cents