Anything

[Anonymous]

Hello all:

Hey Mum!  Thank you.......for the hairy sum up story.  That's a great one!  (((((Mum))))

Butterfly:  What a great thinker you are!  What you say makes a lot of sense to me except I might use the word guilt, rather than shame.

Only because of something I heard once that seems to fit which is:

Guilt is what we feel.
Shame is what other people put on us.

I don't know if this is true for all but it makes sense to me.  So I would add that if it is shame that we are feeling....then we need to examine the need/s.....or rather try to guess the need/s of the person putting the shame on us.  

I guess this is similar to what you wrote eh Plucky?

I have a hard time with shame and shaming in that it almost seems like an attempt to control.

"You should be ashamed of yourself!"  

When someone says this my sirens go right off the deep end!  I want to respond........"I'm ok with myself and I won't take your gift of shame!"
I don't always have the courage to say that though.

Maybe I have said or done something shameful...that I feel guilty about?
If so, an empathetic person, who cares, would want to know how I feel, if I'm ok, if I've been thinking about my words/actions?   Maybe help me learn from the experience.  Anyone who cares will not have a desire (so it seems) to try to make me feel worse (is my best bet)...to control my emotional state.

So....I don't really give a hoot what those who don't care about me think or say.....that seems intended to cause me to feel worse about myself!  Intention counts in my book...quite some.

What if I've said or done something shameful.....and I don't realize it?
If so, an empathetic person, who cares, would want to help me realize it but not by trying to make me feel bad about myself.   Anyone who cares will have a desire (I suspect) to try to point out my poor choice without blaming or shaming me.  They wouldn't use those "You should..." words above.  They might ask me how I feel, or state how they might feel, in such a case.

Anyone else....intent on putting shame on me.....gives me the creeps.  I tune into their power hunger and wonder what's eating them that they have such a need to put me down?

GFN

[Brigid]

Butterfly,
I'm still processing what you wrote, but my gut instinct is that shame is something that keeps you from fixing the problem rather than providing an impetous to do so.  I know that shame is at the root of my nxh's problems and why he will probably never seek help or find healing.  He keeps that shame buried so deep within him and will not let anyone near it.  For a brief time when he was ending the marriage and wanted to get me to hate him enough to throw him out, he exposed that shame.  I learned the truth that he had worked decades to hide.  It's very sad really and I would have been willing to help him, but of course, he didn't want that.  His entire reasoning for exposing it to me was he assumed it would push me off the edge and force me to make the decision that he did not want to make.  When that plot failed he had no choice but to leave on his own.  He has since sealed the shame back in its cage and denies its existance once again.  This is a cycle he is destined to repeat for the rest of his life.

I certainly have my own shame as well.  But I don't see it as being useful.  Quite the opposite in most cases.  It tends to keep me down on myself and dwelling on negative things I have done, rather than inspiring me to make better decisions.  I also know that some shame I carry is not warranted, but I haven't figured out how to put it in its proper place.  

I see shame as being the opposite of pride.  For me, having pride in something I have done is very useful toward my healing process.  Feeling shameful about something I have done has proved to be very detrimental to my healing process.  Just my 2 cents.

Brigid

[Plucky G2]

jophil wrote:

Anyways, she said,"I am willing to help you but you go dancing too much and if I lend you the money I EXPECT you to cut back to two nights a week. Your brother says that two is plenty". I am 54 years old.

I'm sorry but this is hilarious!  How did you respond?  I have to say that when I visit my mom, she wants to determine my bedtime!  I am in my 40s. married for the 2nd time, with 2 kids!

PS I imported this from another old thread.  Carry on with the shame discussion.  No response required.

Plucky G2

[Anonymous]

Hello all:


What if I've said or done something shameful.....and I don't realize it?
If so, an empathetic person, who cares, would want to help me realize it but not by trying to make me feel bad about myself.   Anyone who cares will have a desire (I suspect) to try to point out my poor choice without blaming or shaming me.  They wouldn't use those "You should..." words above.  They might ask me how I feel, or state how they might feel, in such a case.

Anyone else....intent on putting shame on me.....gives me the creeps.  I tune into their power hunger and wonder what's eating them that they have such a need to put me down?
GFN

Thanks for sharing these thoughts of yours here GFN. I really needed to read something like this after tonight at work  and your words here penetrated and I feel just so much better now   . Suddenly I had a reality check and a context to put it all in. So I can go to work tomorrow without a problem or grudge. You reminded me that it's actually their problem, not mine. That's great and I'm thankful. Thankyou.
((GFN))
Guest for Today

[Anonymous]

Hi everyone:

Brigid wrote:

shame is something that keeps you from fixing the problem rather than providing an impetous to do so.

and

I see shame as being the opposite of pride. For me, having pride in something I have done is very useful toward my healing process. Feeling shameful about something I have done has proved to be very detrimental to my healing process.

If shame is something, in this case, that you feel guilty for....something you have done that you feel ashamed of......that you regret....the only way to heal from it is to learn from it, imo.  These are questions we might all ask ourselves when we are feeling shameful:

What caused me to do it?
What could I have done differently?
What might I do if the same situation presents itself in future?
Will I look at the experience as a disappointment, rather than a disgrace?
Will I have faith in myself not to repeat the behavior?
What do I need to help I build that faith, if I think you might do the same thing again?
Do I feel unworthy?  Need help in that department?
Am I condemning myself or is someone else?
Am I looking at something factual that I actually did or am I just experiencing a feeling, with no real examination of my actions?
Am I taking responsibility for/owning the fault of what I actually did?
Am I remorseful and aware of what I actually, factually did wrong?
Do I feel distressed about I behaviour?
Will I remember my behaviour with sorrow and let that help me not to repeat it? (rather than just carrying around a feeling of shame/guilt/blame for infinity...with no use or end).
Have I mourned the loss...the disappointment...grieved for it?
What have I learned from this experience?

Looking at the different definitions:

Shame:

A painful emotion caused by a strong sense of guilt, embarrassment, unworthiness, or disgrace.
Capacity for such a feeling: Have you no shame?

One that brings dishonor, disgrace, or condemnation.

A condition of disgrace or dishonor; ignominy.

A great disappointment.

Guilt:

The fact of being responsible for the commission of an offense. See Synonyms at blame.

Law Culpability for a crime or lesser breach of regulations that carries a legal penalty.

Remorseful awareness of having done something wrong.
Self-reproach for supposed inadequacy or wrongdoing.

Guilty conduct; sin.

Blame:

To hold responsible.

To find fault with; censure.

To place responsibility for (something):

Regret:

To feel sorry, disappointed, or distressed about.

To remember with a feeling of loss or sorrow; mourn.

Maybe you can think of more questions to ask when you are feeling shamed?  In this way, maybe the good use of the shame will end up being the looking and learning of the whole event?  This could take some of the pain of the experience and put it into perspective...make it a friend that teaches rather than a foe that harms.

Just my thoughts this lovely June morning!

PS:  Plucky!

I have to say that when I visit my mom, she wants to determine my bedtime! I am in my 40s. married for the 2nd time, with 2 kids!

Really???  Holey Moley!  She thinks you're a toddler eh?  Do you laugh hysterically?  Stay up extra late?  Too funny!   I might be tempted to do that!  Still shaking my head.  

GFN

[Anonymous]

Need mooooore coffffffeeeee!

What do I need to help I build that faith, if I think you might do the same thing again?

Correction:

What do I need to help me build tha fairth, if I think I might do the same thing again?

GFN

[Anonymous]

fairth

Laughing like a loonie!

(trying not to leave any open loops for Muddyboy!)

Have fairth in yurslef!!  Yar cun duit!

GFN

[Anonymous]

Hi again:

Thanks for sharing these thoughts of yours here GFN. I really needed to read something like this after tonight at work  and your words here penetrated and I feel just so much better now  . Suddenly I had a reality check and a context to put it all in. So I can go to work tomorrow without a problem or grudge. You reminded me that it's actually their problem, not mine. That's great and I'm thankful. Thankyou.
((GFN))
Guest for Today

Are you the same person as Guest in for today (Gift)?  If so, I thanked you, in the "I need help managing my anger" thread for the hug, thankyou again for that.  If not, thankyou for the first time and what the heck...thanks twice!  

((((Guest for Today)))) I'm sorry that work has been giving you grief but glad that I was able to help somehow.   Also...that the people at work sound like they are trying to place shame on you for something that is actually their problem.  Dorks!

Good for you for recognizing this (if I am close here) and for not holding a grudge either!  Resenting people who don't have a clue is another waste of time, imo (not that I haven't done it myself....I have...but once I realize it's a waste of time...I've been lucky enough to just forget it or at least...remind myself that I'm wasting my time until I decide to forget it).

  Like picking petals off a daisy....he/she shamed me, he/she shamed me not, he/she shamed me, he/she shamed me not....

Same waste of time.  Have a great day all!

GFN

[longtire]

Have fairth in yurslef!!  Yar cun duit!

GFN, I didn't realize you were scottish!  

[Anonymous]

Hiya Long:

GFN, I didn't realize you were scottish!

Neither did I!!!  Learning stuff about myself everyday!!

(some of it reeeeeeeeeel cunfusing   ).

 
GFN

[Anonymous]

What's a slef?  

GFN

[Anonymous]

GFN wrote:

Guilt is what we feel.
Shame is what other people put on us.

Maybe I have said or done something shameful...that I feel guilty about?

I think I see what you mean.  So what you are saying is that, you see guilt as intrinsic, and shame as extrinsic.  That's interesting, b/c I see it quite the opposite from you.  I see shame and guilt as both intrinsic emotions.  However, the source of the feeling is different.  As I understand it, we feel guilty when we commit an infraction against somebody else.  However, we feel shame when we commit an infraction against ourselves.  For argument sake, I would feel guilt if I stole money from work.  However, I would feel shame if I did something to devalue myself.

Butterfly

[Anonymous]

Brigid wrote:

I certainly have my own shame as well. But I don't see it as being useful. Quite the opposite in most cases. It tends to keep me down on myself and dwelling on negative things I have done, rather than inspiring me to make better decisions. I also know that some shame I carry is not warranted, but I haven't figured out how to put it in its proper place.

I see shame as being the opposite of pride. For me, having pride in something I have done is very useful toward my healing process. Feeling shameful about something I have done has proved to be very detrimental to my healing process.

Brigid, I hear ya.  I think you have a good point.  What you are saying makes sense to me.  I used to think shame is something harmful to my personal growth and needs to be rid of asap.  Like it is a pathogenic bacteria that if left untreated will infect me with an terrible illness.  This whole idea of seeing shame as useful is all new to me and quite a stretch from what I'm used to.  But it sure makes a whole lot of sense to me.

Just the other day, after I got off the phone with my friend, I felt ashamed for ranting about my mother to her.  I felt it for awhile.  So I thought I will try something different.  This time, I will direct my feeling of shame in a different direction.  Instead of wallowing in my shame, I will instead try to figure out and get down to the root of my shame.  I will listen to what it is trying to tell me, instead of just dwelling on the feeling.  I initially thought to myself that the reason I felt ashame of myself for going off about my mother to my friend was because I felt my mother's current health condition doesn't warrant me talking bad about her.  But then I thought about it some more.  Why did I say those words at such a time as this?  And why did I feel ashame for saying it?  Then I thought, hmmm, I think I didn't feel ashame for what I said about my mother, rather, I felt shame in response to the words my friend had said and not said to me.  She didn't give me the acceptance/affirmation/validation I subconsciously needed to hear from her.  What I really wanted underneath my words was validation.  If my friend had said validating words to me, then I wouldn't feel like what I said was wrong.  Underneath that shame was my need to vent my suppressed feelings about my mother and a need to hear someone say that it is okay to feel that way about your mother.  After I had identified the root of my feeling of shame, acknowledged and accepted it, I no longer felt shame of what I had said about my mother.  This is how shame has been useful to me.

Anyways, she said,"I am willing to help you but you go dancing too much and if I lend you the money I EXPECT you to cut back to two nights a week. Your brother says that two is plenty". I am 54 years old.  

I'm sorry but this is hilarious! How did you respond? I have to say that when I visit my mom, she wants to determine my bedtime! I am in my 40s. married for the 2nd time, with 2 kids!

Yeah, that is kinda funny...in a sad way, though.   Some people just don't know when to quit, do they?

Butterfly

[Brigid]

Butterfly & GFN,

I see shame and guilt as both intrinsic emotions. However, the source of the feeling is different. As I understand it, we feel guilty when we commit an infraction against somebody else. However, we feel shame when we commit an infraction against ourselves.

I would agree with Butterfly on this.  I don't see shame as something someone else puts on us.  N's feel great shame, which is where their nness comes from.  It may not necessarily be warrented, but is left from some kind of childhood experience or trauma in most cases.  It ultimately leads to great self-loathing which is disguised in elevated self-love.  But they do not feel guilt for the way they treat others.  That would involve having some empathy and care of the feelings of others.

Just the other day, after I got off the phone with my friend, I felt ashamed for ranting about my mother to her.

Butterfly, I think you are being awfully hard on yourself.  I don't see something like this as being shameful.  You might feel somewhat guilty, but emotional responses that come from a painful place don't deserve feelings of shame imo.  I just see shame as a pretty strong feeling that would be reserved for transgressions against your moral code, sense of decency, family values, and things of that nature.

Brigid

[b/k]

Brigid wrote,

Butterfly, I think you are being awfully hard on yourself.

Maybe so. But that was how I felt.

Have a good day everyone.

Butterfly