narcissism and friendships

[vunil]

Hi,

I have been struggling with something that I would love some advice about.

In the past 3 months or so I've really dedicated myself to understanding the effect my narcissistic family had on me in my childhood and afterwards.  Through lots of reading, and reflecting, and learning through folks here, I think I've come a long way toward understanding (and accepting that I still have a ways to go).

Here is my current struggle, though:  in really looking with much clearer eyes at my past and present, I realize that most of my past love relationships and many of my past and present friendships were with narcissistic people.  I am lucky in that many of my current friends are not, but some are.  Or at least their relationship with me is distinctly narcissistic-- they must always be right, my issues are only interesting if they are reflective of something about them, and anything good that happens to me is diminished in some way.  Also, their personal philosophies are very ego-centric.

It is an odd feeling, as if I got glasses for the first time.  But it's lonely.  Some of the people I used to spend a lot of time with are, I realize, just reflections of my unsatisfying family.  It is going to be tough to regroup, although I can try to build up the good relationships and find new ones.  Interestingly, I spent more time with folks who were not nice to me than with folks who were and was better friends with the former.  I guess it just felt comfortable.

But after a really stressful lunch today with someone who lectured me the whole time, and who was pretty baldly insulting for much of the conversation, I'm just feeling the need for some support.  I used to think of this person as my best friend.  Now I realize that the relationship depends on my agreeing with her at all times, and letting her play the teacher to my meek student.  It's just sad to realize how much of the closeness I thought we had I actually must have made up in my mind.

Has anyone else experienced this?  Isn't it odd?  How did it all turn out for you?

thanks!
Vunil

[jondo]

I think that all children of N's grow up learning to adapt and to serve the needs of the N.  Like me, when that is from infancy, it becoomes your character.  So much , that you don't really develop a self.  I lived my entire life prior to 40yrs, serving other peoples needs.  That is true of all of my relationships - friends and relatives.  Did you ever go to a social function and immediately click with someone?  That happened to me all the time and it's nothing more than two desperately needy people whos vibrations are attracted.  That includes both roles of the N cycle - it could be an N and an N or an N victim  and N victim or most often, one of each.  As a child victim of a severe N, this is the only dynamic that I could function in.  I have never had an intimate relationship, they were all superficial.  That was until I entered thrapy and began to understand all this and then I met my wife and we have a baby.  A real and normal relationship was not even possible only two years ago.  It's amazing but some people (my mother) will spend their whole life in that miserable state.  Anyway, the relationship changes that take place after you change, are most revealing.  You will see how shallow and needy most of them really were.  I only have one or two "carryovers" as I call them.  The others including relatives (all N's) are not a part of my life.  Silently, they know why and if they don't - I'm not compelled to debate with them.  You just have to let go.  That freeing feeling will come soon.

[mum]

Wow, Vunil.  I do know what you are talking about.  In the last year I have changed so much, learned so much about myself, what I deserve and will and will not accept in personal relationships.  
Pema Chodron says, "you think you are on a path to spiritual enlightenment?  Go visit your family!!!"
The very first test for me was with one of my sisters.  She told me how I should be doing life, I told her she was entitled to her opinions, as was I, and we didn't speak for about 5 months (we live far apart).  It was hard but I realized that our old relationship was based on her assuming I was needy, my listening to her advice whether I wanted it or not....and that's how it went.  She was great at the rearview mirror thing (Rhonda Britton talks about that in Fearless Living):  bringing up my past failures where her advice could have saved me...and the ultimate, it's because I love you so much, you (blah), need (blah), me (blah)!
She was a little stunned , and recently we have started talking again, but I noticed, she has a really hard time listening if I tell her ANYTHING about my ex and how he messes with me and the kids (" I thought you were over that!")  So: we talk about the weather, and we are no longer close, yes that hurts but the definition of close has changed for me...I am NO LONGER a pathetic little sister, and I won't be just to make her comfortable.
 
I know I have more boundaries to set with my good friend who has been away for a year.  She will be back this weekend. She is frequently negative, always right, and judgemental.  It's going to be very interesting around here soon.  For some reason, I am still her friend, although I wonder WHY more often than a friend should....I have such mixed feelings about her, but I'm pretty sure  the back of my neck shouldn't sieze up when I think of seeing a friend.....
(another chance to practice letting go of negativity and focus on the positives...)

I have a some other friends whose relationship with me has changed as well.  Some I wouldn't even call friends anymore and some who call ME for advice now, like they were weaklings all along and they need me now that they can't control me!
It is lonely sometimes (while the hell do you think I have time to write here?)........ and it took me a while to realize that I would rather spend time alone than with "users".  

Just recently, I started meeting unofficially with a small group of women, ages, 30's, 40's 50's, 60's...........and we share thoughts,  caffiene every week or two....I love them all so much.
It's honestly the closest I have ever been to being part of a loving group of people since my childhood full of siblings.

[Anonymous]

I used to have woman friends who were recreations of my bossy older sister. Only they were worse! I kept re-living that relationship with woman "friends" until a therapist pointed it out to me. Then it was like, "Ohhhhh..." And I started a new boundary for myself of not tolerating crap from others, even if they felt entitled to my toleration. I remember one woman getting furious at me because I would no longer be her garbage container. She couldn't believe it. Went off on me when I ran into her in a supermarket. I stood my ground and that was the end of that "friendship." Anyway I don't hang around with people who feel free to boss, control, dominate, etc. My standards are different now.

bunny

[jondo]

Bunny you said
I don't hang around with people who feel free to boss, control, dominate, etc. My standards are different now.

Isn't that the simplest of actions to take yet the hardest to learn.  I have a long history of relationships with people that boss, control dominate etc.. until I made the decision to not "agree" to provide that role anymore.  And it really is like a "contract" that you establish with these types of people (N's)  You go along with whatever it is they need from you, without any voiced opposition and that becomes a contract that they are often unwilling to give up.  As unbelievable as it seems, some of these severe N's actually believe you owe them that inferior role for eternity.  If one withdraws then it's something that your taking from them. Any opposition is a personal attack on them. This is when the "all about me" part becomes grossly obvious.  The hardest part for me was staying consistent with this new "me".  Many people in this stage of finding themselves, find themselves  "pushing and pulling" in those relationships that you know you want to break away from.  I guess that's all part of the process of finding ones voice and more importantly, finding the courage to begin using it - especially in the old relationships.  That can be scary.

[mum]

Jondo; there is a book that describes perfectly how these patterns we get into with others work.  It's called "The Dance of Anger" by Harriet Lerner.  She describes it as a dance (like an agreement or your contract) and when one person breaks free of the pattern of usual steps, or doesn't want to dance anymore, there is usually a horrible backlash from the other partner of the "dance".  I have seen this at work with my ex, my family, etc.  I say: I won't participate in XYZ, they go for the jugular (in me it would be to call me selfish or uncaring). It's a really interesting thing people do.  I'm sure I do it too. Hopefully I am aware enough not to cause harm........(my goal).
Anyway, I read that book years ago and found it helpful.

[Guest from afar]

Hi Vunil,

Yes, I identify with your situation and empathise. I spend a lot of time alone these days as I find it difficult to meet and befriend the nicer people of the world. I am very sensitive to others' feelings and if I sense them feeling upset when I even suggest I might have a different point of view to them, I will immediately change what I am saying and keep my dissent to myself, rather than hurt their feelings. I have a long way to go to get past this type of behaviour, unfortunately. I don't know how one goes about finding the nice people who do not mind my having my own views. Most people seem to be very thin-skinned, or else I lack the skills to  disagree in acceptable ways.

Eg If I would say when shopping with a friend that I like a shirt that is green, and the friend says that green is a yukky colour, if I buy the green shirt anyway they always look upset or bothered. That is sufficient for me to hold off buying what I want until I am alone. By the way, I don't do that to other people - try to tell them what they should buy/have/do. My accommodating behaviour makes me very popular when I am with others, but does not please me deep down, hence I am alone a lot. I only know two ways to behave: agree with everything the other person says and be popular, or disagree and feel uncomfortable when I see that the other person is upset.

S

[vunil]

I don't know how one goes about finding the nice people who do not mind my having my own views

I'm not so sure, either, since I seem to have ended up with my share of the same-old-thing.  But I do know that I have had some luck with this in places where the general philosophy of the situation is open and loving.  Any place that would be characterized as "liberal" or "socially conscious" might work-- a unitarian church (you don't have to be religious to go-- it's a very open community), an environmental group, peace activists, people trying to elect someone liberal to something (especially if the person is unusual for a politician), any synagogue or church active in civil rights and other issues focused on the downtrodden.  Or a food bank.  Whatever.

This isn't foolproof.  Sometimes on the liberal end of things people will still be very intolerent of other viewpoints, very rigid in their requirements for the "right way to live" and just as annoyingly arrogant as anyone.

But most people I have met who are actively trying to do the right thing and be good people are themselves tolerent and loving.

Just a possibility (from someone who is also searching!).

I know how you feel and wish us all luck

[Guest from afar]

Those ideas are well worth considering. Thank you for sharing, Vunil. It is always nice not to be alone with one's problems and to have someone kind take an interest.

Good luck in your friend-seeking efforts,

S

[vunil]

Hi, everyone--

these posts have been so helpful I thought I'd ask for some more specific advice.

I have a friend who may have a narcissistic relationship with me, but I am really not able to tell.  She is the one I mentioned in the original post.

Anyway, at lunch the other day, she was telling me I "have to" read a bunch of new-age books she has read recently.  She knows I am not a fan of new age philosophies.  I told her I had read books like that (and maybe those books-- I don't remember) and honestly just don't believe in it.  

She launched into a very long lecture about how I should believe it.  This is not the first time she's done this, but this was the worst.  She said that just because I'm a scientist doesn't mean I can't believe in "the magic of life" and "all it has to offer".  And I said I didn't think it had anything to do with science-- it was more a religious or spiritual choice.  And she said "it isn't religious of spiritual-- it's true!"  Then she explained how if the whole world prays for something, the energy of the universe will make it happen.  See?, she said.  "The world is more wondrous than any of us know!"  

It was really awkward.  She kept saying "you need to be more open to what you don't know about, to realize that there are lots of possibilities!"  I realize there are lot of possibilities, and I am filled with the wonder of the universe (I mean, I'm pregnant, for heaven's sake!).

Ok, so here's my question.  The truth is I had read these books and talked to tons of people about these ideas, and I did so over 10 years ago.  I just honestly don't believe any of it.  I have religious beliefs, they just don't include new age stuff.  


So maybe she doesn't realize I really do know what these books say?  If I told her would that open up understanding between us or should I just assume it's hopeless?  I think I've told her before but maybe she just didn't get what I was saying.    Is it possible for a "regular person" who isn't narcissistic to get onto these kinds of soapboxes and be unable to see the other person's point of view?  Would it help if I told her what my spiritual beliefs are or would that make it worse?

Or is what she is saying to me really insulting, disguised as concern?

THANKS. I really wonder what you all think.

[Anonymous]

Then she explained how if the whole world prays for something, the energy of the universe will make it happen

Where can I buy some of the drugs she's taking?

This person is in a reality that you aren't sharing (thank goodness, in my opinion). Maybe she needs to stick to those who share her reality, rather than trying to force it upon you. You don't want to be converted? It's your right not to have others' views imposed upon you. She's screwy, not you.

[Anonymous]

"you need to be more open to what you don't know about, to realize that there are lots of possibilities!"

I'd be insulted. I'd tell her I'd read the books etc and see if she's interested in what I thought. If not, I wouldn't see her again for quite a while, hoping she'd 'get over it'.

[Anonymous]

Anyway, at lunch the other day, she was telling me I "have to" read a bunch of new-age books she has read recently.  She knows I am not a fan of new age philosophies.  I told her I had read books like that (and maybe those books-- I don't remember) and honestly just don't believe in it.

Pushy. Rather annoying and obnoxious.
 

She launched into a very long lecture about how I should believe it.  This is not the first time she's done this, but this was the worst.  She said that just because I'm a scientist doesn't mean I can't believe in "the magic of life" and "all it has to offer".  And I said I didn't think it had anything to do with science-- it was more a religious or spiritual choice.  And she said "it isn't religious of spiritual-- it's true!"  Then she explained how if the whole world prays for something, the energy of the universe will make it happen.  See?, she said.  "The world is more wondrous than any of us know!"

Insecure; must push personal beliefs on others and pontificate in a self-righteous manner. Highly obnoxious.

 

So maybe she doesn't realize I really do know what these books say?  If I told her would that open up understanding between us or should I just assume it's hopeless?  I think I've told her before but maybe she just didn't get what I was saying.    Is it possible for a "regular person" who isn't narcissistic to get onto these kinds of soapboxes and be unable to see the other person's point of view?  Would it help if I told her what my spiritual beliefs are or would that make it worse?

I don't think she intends to insult you. However, her behavior is insulting and high aggravating. It's basically immature and obnoxious. I would NOT explain, defend, or engage in a spirituality debate or conversation. It's futile. If you like some things about her, simply cut off these topics and distract her with something else. If she won't be dissuaded, you will suddenly have to leave. Bottom line, don't allow the conversation to go to this place.

bunny

[Anonymous]

Hello

This thread struck a chord with me.  Some people really really need answers and then once they find those answers, they are Right.  All set.

So, ask your friend what she would think if she was going to a particular destination like Europe and you told her exactly how to get there, which cities to see first, which airline to take, at what time of day, etc.  Many people suffer from rigid religiosity.  Nothing wrong with enthusiasm, but saying "you need" and "you should" are Big Buttons for me.  Ask her if every flower needs the same growing conditions and amount of water.  And BTW, wasn't this country founded on religious tolerance???

I'm learning that rigid people are seeking security and reassurance.  If you can reassure her that you respect her explorations etc she might back off.  Really, it's the language your friend uses, not the content, that is aggravating.  I have many friends like this and I am starting to wonder what it is about me that puts up with it.

Just some thoughts...a guest

[Anonymous]

vunil,
I really need to say something about the quote below. Please don't take what I say in the wrong way. And if I misunderstood let me know.

Any place that would be characterized as "liberal" or "socially conscious" might work-- a unitarian church (you don't have to be religious to go-- it's a very open community), an environmental group, peace activists, people trying to elect someone liberal to something (especially if the person is unusual for a politician), any synagogue or church active in civil rights and other issues focused on the downtrodden. Or a food bank. Whatever.

This isn't foolproof. Sometimes on the liberal end of things people will still be very intolerent of other viewpoints, very rigid in their requirements for the "right way to live" and just as annoyingly arrogant as anyone.

But most people I have met who are actively trying to do the right thing and be good people are themselves tolerent and loving.

I am a conservative Christian. I can assure you I have been around environmental groups, peace activists, and people trying to elect someone liberal, and not only have I not felt the open lovingness you describe I have often had some pretty vile things said about me if my beliefs are found out. I am sure you feel welcome in these groups. I am not welcome in these groups unless my viewpoint is altered to match their's. I am sure if you visited the NRA convention or a rally in support of the President you would feel the same way and probably get some similar treatment.
Your second paragraph gets closer to the truth. However you qualify it by implying that this intolerance of other viewpoints is rare on the liberal end of things while fairly universal on the right. I just do not think that is true. I have been on the receiving end of a great deal of liberal "tolerance" and it quite as widespread as any on my side of the aisle and just as mean and spiteful.
But it is your last paragraph in the quote that really bothers me. If I take the quote as a whole it seems like your last paragraph is saying that only liberals are "trying to do the right thing and be good people". Is that what you are saying? If it is, could you please show me the tolerance in that statement?
 I go to a conservative, bible believing church where most of the people are conservative Republicans. The vast, vast majority are trying to do what they think is the right thing and they are trying to be good people. Many of them work in our local food bank. Many of them volunteer at our pregnancy center to help young women through their pregnancy and to support them after the baby arrives. My wife and I lead a singles group at our church to support middle aged singles, many of whom are victims of Ns. Our pastor is routinely gotten out of bed in the middle of the night to comfort someone with a dying family member or an accident victim. Another local pastor abandoned a successful ministry to move to the slums of Atlanta to minister to drug addicts and prostitutes. My wife and I have two dear friends who are moving to the poorest part of Appalachia to provide psychiatric counseling in an area with no therapists at all. Anyone and I mean ANYONE is welcome at our church. My wife and I have personally preserved hundreds of acres from development and I'm a logger! We have supported orphans in four different countries often when we couldn't afford to. And it is not limited to only churchgoers. There are many local conservative groups who volunteer thousands of hours and dollars for needy families and causes. I could go on for pages, but I don't think I need to. Nor is this specific to my experience. Every area I know is like this.
There is nothing wrong with believing you are right and someone else is wrong. There is something wrong with believing the person you disagree with has less noble motives than yourself, unless we're talking Nazis or Communists or some other pathological types. That is the essence of intolerance; whoever disagrees with me isn't a good person or isn't trying to do the right thing. It seems to me you are doing the very thing tolerant liberals say they hate; stereotyping. In my experience hatred, greed, intolerance, racism, all disgusting human behavior is an outgrowth of our universal human nature, and does not recognize boundaries of politics, religion, race or any other obstacle in its way.
I know this post isn't exactly on subject but to be perfectly frank I was pretty darned offended by what you seemed to be saying.
Any thoughts? Did I misunderstand what you said?

Mudpuppy

PS. There are jerks in my church but I doubt the ratio is any higher than the unitarian church or a gathering of atheists. And frankly most of the jerks are guys of no particular persuasion, politically or spiritually. They're just there looking for a Christian gal to marry. Probably Ns.