Is there a Doctor in the house? Can NPD be hidden?

[Mudpup]

Good morning everyone,
I have posted elsewhere about my legal battle with my brother.
One strategy my lawyer and I have discussed is mailing a package of the DSM IV criteria and descriptions of N behavior and typical problems victims encounter to my family members and associates who have apparently swallowed his slanders.
The idea is if he countersues me for defamation of character I can defend myself by subjecting him to a psych exam. THE defense against defamation is that what was said was the truth.
If he doesn't countersue, which I suspect he wouldn't as I believe he is too insecure to risk being examined, I would at least have some chance of educating people about what he is and has done and probably could change some minds and repair some relationships.
If he is able to fool a psych evaluation however I might be in a tight spot. Are they able to do this? He is an absolutely text book case of NPD. I think I said before I was surprised I didn't find his picture at the top of the NPD page of the DSM IV. He has NO overlap with any of the other disorders and would probably make an excellent case study. However he is very intelligent and prides himself on his deceptive behavior. I know him and can read him like a book. Could a competent court appointed examiner?
I don't think I made it too clear above, but the whole strategy would be to introduce NPD into the lawsuit I am filing against him to establish
A. He's a pathological liar that the jury cannot trust and
B. He is prone to exactly the kind of behavior that I am alleging.
Anyway, any input from someone more knowledgable than me would be greatly appreciated.

Mudpuppy

[vunil]

I am not a licensed clinician, but my first thoughts on reading your post are (1) wouldn't everyone already know his tendencies if they have dealt with him? and (2) why not just concentrate on the lies he actually told and the stuff he actually did?

NPD people lie all the time, so getting some sort of diagnosis might be really tough.  If he is at all smart he knows to say he cares about other people, has no delusions of grandeur, doesn't lie, etc.  And the person diagnosing him might actually get charmed by him, which would be a disaster.

I guess you'd have to really think through what this all would buy you.  If he has NPD I can't imagine anyone who has known him for any amount of time having any other impression of him besides the one you have.  Usually these people are good with "new people" and quickly use up people they've known a long time.  If you can prove all of his lies, which should be easy, maybe that would be enough?

Just two cents!  Someone else can probably answer better.

[miaxo]

mudpup

Not a doctor but thought I would offer some thoughts.

I love the concept but I can't help but have reservations.  As the previous poster noted it is very likely that he could *charm* the evaluator.  From my experience I don't have too much faith in court appointed therapists being able to see through it.  What are the chances that your attorney could recommend a Psychiatrist to do an evaluation (of course it would be pricey) in addition to the court appointed one?

If you and your attorney feel you already have a strong case then I would avoid doing what you are contemplating.  Just my opinion based on my experiences with my X N.  

You never know though....if you're a risk taker and have the stomach for it then do it.  It would be so awesome if your brother was diagnosed as N as a result of such action. You would be such a hero for all of us here.

Best of luck.

Mia

[Anonymous]

Mud:

Narcs could care less that they are narcs.  The only reason he would care is if in his twisted way could use this against you.  During intake of any pysch diagnosis :(1) the patient has presented on his on (2) someone like parents or significant others have brought them in (3) law enforcement has brought them in due to "acting out" and they were going to harm themselves or others.  In your brothers case he would have to be threatened enough by an NPD diagnosis in order to counter your claims.  Narcs are very chamelon like creatures and can bend and twist to accomodate first impressions.  The likihood of him entertaining on going therapy is nil.  This would require him to submit to a theraputic relationship in which he is not in charge.  Also, even if he did submit in superficial way, the likihood of him hoodwinking a really good psychologist/psychiatrist for any length of time is not likely.  Eventually his "visions of grandeur" and obssession with himself (I the ego) would eventually over rule any attempts at a theraputic relationship.  Just my 2c.  Patz

[vunil]

The likelihood of him entertaining on going to therapy is nil.

I totally agree with this!  I had an N friend who went and quit after two weeks because "the people in that group just didn't seem to understand what I needed from them."

Maybe that should go in the hilarious N comments thread.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the replies guys,

vunil,
Outside of court where he can lie with impunity he is a talented liar and concealer and convinces people that his motives are good even if he has to use tough tactics to enforce his noble motives. Criminy, I knew him better than anyone and it took me years to figure out what was going on. Plus when you are buried under an avalanche of lies like I was it can be tough to dig out. Even if people know he is a creep they still buy into this junk just because of the weight of it. Plus this is the hard part, people may know he is a creep but without knowing what NPD is they don't believe anyone would actually do anything as outrageous as he actually does. They think I am lying or exaggerating when I just describe his behavior.

mia,
He has done me so much damage that I have become a risk taker. I don't have a whole lot to lose. This suit is for all the marbles. Whoever loses gets to tuck their tail between their legs and find a new doghouse.

patz,
I'm not sure what your reference to ongoing therapy is. I don't hold out any hope for him on that score. I just want a diagnosis. I agree on your other points. I don't think he would put himself in the position of being evaluated. But if he did I don't see how he could hide it. Once I figured him out it was almost pitiful how easily I could manipulate him without him knowing it. In fact I have watched him in court previously regarding a couple of real estate matters and he thinks he is acting normal when in fact he is alienating the judge and everybody else in the room. If you've ever seen the pictures of Mussolini swaggering on his balcony you will have the general idea.

One thing I left out of my first post is the fact that a therapist friend of mine diagnosed him remotely as NPD in a casual conversation so I can plead reliance on her opinion even though her diagnosis is not admissable. Leaving that out may have exaggerated my legal exposure if he fooled a court appointed doc.
I'm certainly not decided on this. I would just like to get the issue before a jury somehow so they know what they are dealing with. Its probably not necessary but it might help. I may decide my motivation is simply to expose him which would mean I was making my decision on emotion. That's bad. Thanks for the bones to chew on.
mudpuppy

[Anonymous]

One strategy my lawyer and I have discussed is mailing a package of the DSM IV criteria and descriptions of N behavior and typical problems victims encounter to my family members and associates who have apparently swallowed his slanders.

This is using your family and associates to get him angry enough to countersue you. Makes you look bad. I'm not for it.

If you want to get the NPD info in front of a jury, you will need an expert witness (psychiatrist) to get up there and explain his diagnosis and why they have diagnosed him as such. How do you get him examined? Usually the plaintiff (not defendant) submits to an exam to sue for emotional damages.  Tempting him to countersue you for defamation, then saying it wasn't defamation but the truth, prior to his being diagnosed by anyone, sounds lame. If I were on a jury I would not like the sound of it.

my opinion, and I am on your side, not his.

bunny

[onlyrenting1]

Mudpup,

I can understand how you want everyone you know and understand why your brother lies so.

I have a Workerscomp exam that is full of jargon and scales of 1-10. what percentage of the population has the same symptoms. (2%) and simply states he is a self-absorbed Narsisstic.

Now saying that, an expert would need to clarify the scales to the layman.
I don't know what allowed a WC doctor able to do this exam and how it benifits them, They know he is an N, now, how do you clarify an N???
Maybe some of the same reason they could allow the test would allow you to make a request????


When I found descriptions that fit my H, I e-mailed a few, to those family members who would ask why would he lie or do what he does.
Now I could say  "THIS IS WHY HE ACTS THIS WAY".
I would look up web sites that have answers to questions your family would ask about your brother.

One that my BIL mentions,
"I'ts always someone else's fault"
 troubles in his life was never anything he did.

So I would send him something to show how this is a classic behavior of the N. He would come up with questions I could now fire back and answer.


How you would do this in court I don't know but maybe a WC Lawyer could  help you with some direction.


Hope this helps......Onlyrenting.

[Guest from afar]

Hi Mudpuppy,

I doubt your family will be willing to put in the work to understand Narcissism, and may even have some mild disorders of their own which prevent them from seeing it. They may also be too anxious about taking sides to want to see the truth. They may not want to get so involved. For these reasons, i don't think mailing them information will help.

Most of these cases end in settlements/mediation, by the way. I have been in some crazy settlements for significant estates and property and no-one wants to go to court. You go into mediation with a professional mediator on your side, who communicates with your bro's mediator. They each begin with an ambit claim which is ridiculous, and come down from the extreme positions to meet somewhere in the middle. I don't think you will be able to completely obliterate your bro as you plan. Your best bet to get him off your back forever is to negotiate a settlement in which he must agree to leave you alone forevermore - for a price (eg 25% or even 50% of the business). Mediators have seen all this many times before and know their stuff. Have you thought of consulting one?

I managed to 'get rid' of an N sibling in this way - ie, we no longer have contact, although much money was lost to secure this arrangement.

This may be helpful, found in browsing:

http://www.lectlaw.com/filesh/tabbpd.htm

from - S

[Brigid]

Mudpup,
Is your ultimate goal to win the lawsuit with your brother or to bring family members to your side?  I think those goals have very different approaches.  My situation is somewhat different in that the family members I would be trying to convince are his not mine and therefore, would never accept or believe this of their brother/son if 5 psychiatrists stated it under oath.  They have so many of their own dysfunctions and behaviors that in part led to my husband's issues that they could not accept that he has any problems.  

I lived with my N H for 22 years and did not see this problem until my therapist diagnosed it.  He was such a skilled liar and wore such a charming facade that no one saw him for what he was.  My therapist saw it in the first hour he spent with him alone however, so I think a good therapist can see through them fairly easily.

I would agree with the comment regarding using a mediator if your goal is just to "win" your case and get him out of your business life.  Otherwise you could be fighting this for years and nobody wins.

Good luck.

[Anonymous]

Mud:

Ongoing therapy is just that....ongoing therapy.  When a patient begins to see a psychologist/psychiatrist, the first thing the professional tries to hone in on is identification of "the problem".  Most individuals seeking treatment "realize" there is a emotional problem internally which is interfering with the day to day activities.  Many here can attest to the fact that when they sought a 3rd party, i.e objective information, it was to help sort through, manage, understand, recognize......what "the problem,problems" are.  In doing so, it is not a one shot deal.  It requires a realtionship with your therapist, a trust, if you will, to help establish the hard psychological work to "recover" from whatever problem is going on.  Your narc brother would maybe last 2 visits IF he decided to see what NPD is and what it meant to him.  I hope this makes things a little clearer.

I also think using the diagnosis from the DVM would be counterproductive.  What  you actually need is where his narc behavior in a direct way has actually caused harm to others he has come in contact with, exclusive of you.  You need actual specifics, dates, circumstances, individuals, and results.  I seriously doubt the rest of the individuals who have bought his bs are in a position to prehaps change their minds.

The reason I say "in a position".  Your brother weilds a certain amount of power in his business, with business associates etc.  A fine example of this is the Tokar case in Atlanta, GA.  A very prominent lawyer, Fred Tokars had his wife whacked by some hoodlums.  The wife found out he was dealing drugs with some of his "clients" and was going to blow the whistle.  The police department had a very hard time going through the twisted pathway of Fred Tokars to finally bring him to justice.  He was a very connected, rich lawyer........but he did pay after locating his accomplices.  He still to this day denies he had anything to do with the death of his wife and children.   Does your family owe any money to this other brother?  Are any employed by him? What kind of business deals does he do with his other business associates in town?  Does he contribute to charity to look good?  I did have an aquaintence who is a multimillionaire (he has solid gold bridges in his teeth!) who contributes to charity to look good, not for the motivation of doing good I assure you.

Patz

[Anonymous]

oops I meant DSM.  ( I think it was an association with DVM.....just got my drivers liscence renewed!) Patz

[Anonymous]

Hi, new poster here.  Sam Vaknin (Malignant Self love author) has great tips on the Nar in court- a google search can find them.
My tactic in divorcing my NXH was to focus on things that I knew that really embarrassed him. Then, my lawyer called his and said that these would come out if we went to court. So we settled out of court. Ns are very paranoid, and are always afraid that their house of cards can be toppled.
I also agree that exposing his past lies in court will do more to discredit his testimony than a lenghty examination of whether he has NPD or not. Most people can easily reason that if he has a habit of lying his word is no good. Going into the background of why he lies, the reasons, the mental condition, just muddies the waters. it's unnecessary, and, if you don't present a convincing argument, you may turn people against yourself
Just my thoughts... love this board!

[Anonymous]

Thanks to all for the thoughts,
The consensus seems to be its a bad idea. I'm stubborn though, so I will think more about it.
I think the reason I want people to know about NPD is because for years I could see his various behaviors but could never put two and two together. Once I read the description and thought processes of NPD it was like scales fell from my eyes. I guess I hope the same thing would happen to people who may think he is just difficult and a little weird like I did.

Guest,
I've read some of SamV's stuff. However I hear too much of my own N in Sam's writings to trust him very far. He does have some useful suggestions.

Patz,
thanks for you thoughts. You misunderstand our business. I did essentially all the work. So he has enough to retire on, but if I am not making him money he just putters around in his own little world not doing any business.

brigid,
When our mother dies we will own property including four houses together along with our two sisters, and these properties are too important to me, sentimental wise, to just walk away from. My goal is not to mediate or settle, my goal is to make any contact with or harrasment of me like sticking his finger in a light socket so that he knows to simply leave me alone or there will be consequences. The few times he has really gotten his nose bloodied (figuratively), he declares himself the winner and then avoids those peole like the plague. That's what I want to be to him, the black plague.
I feel the same way about their abilitity to hide it from a pro. In a situation where he is in control or can at least pretend he is he's fine. But put him in clinical setting and I think he would be shaking like a bunny rabbit.(no offense bunny)

s,
We are currently in a partition action dividing our real estate. We went through 5 months of mediation in 2003. It was a farce. He did nothing in good faith and finally fired the mediator when he saw things weren't going his way. I've been through binding arbitration as well (not with my N) and don't really see any advantage over court.

onlyrenting,
I too have some concerns about how complicated this could all get in and out of court. Good luck with the move.

bunny,
Yeah I know. The question is how do I get him examined. That is why my lawyer is researchng it. If I couldn't get him examined then its no go for sure.

Anyway thanks all. I'll let you know what I decide.

mudpup

[October]

Anyway thanks all. I'll let you know what I decide.

mudpup

Sorry to answer this one so late, mudpup, but I wanted to make a small comment.  To me there is one very good reason for not ever telling my mum that she is N.  The reason is that knowledge is power, and this is my knowledge, and gives me a huge advantage over her.  She is left with her manipulations, lies and witchcraft, but they do not work on my any more and she does not know why.  She does not have the key to my behaviour.  I on the other hand have the key to hers.

If she knew about NPD, and started looking into it, and what it means, then she would have a chance to outplay me once more, and I am not about to let that happen.

You have the DSM.  I would say, keep it to yourself and use it.  It is like Bletchley Park cracking the Nazi codes in WWII.  The last thing you do is let the enemy know that you have their code, and can understand everything they say and everything they do.  If your brother finds out what you know, he will change the rules again, to your disadvantage.  

If you do decide to go ahead, there is a relatively easy way to get your brother to co-operate with a therapist, although it may not be ethical.  Your therapist only needs to ask him for detailed advice about you and your problems.  No N could resist that!!!!!    Then just sit back and let him talk.