Need help with Baggage Issues

[delphine]

GFN, you made me lolol!

No one is going to die in therapy.

You are so right, why don't I just go and see what happens, thank you!

thanks...

[Kaz]

Hi Delphine,
Sorry, I'll try again. I was basically responding to Andrea who (rightly so) is proud of her achievements since she was 'kicked out' of home. But I bet she would rather have not left that way. Isn't it better to have supportive, caring parents who don't kick you out of home? (There's the rub, if parents are supportive and caring, then generally there's no need for a child to be kicked out).

There are a few things that worry me.
You said you "would not step-parent this kid". Seems to me that he's part of the BF package because he still lives with him. Just as your daughter is part of your package that you want your BF to accept. Their ages are irrelevant.
You also want son to "make changes to adjust to our new family life". But you've excluded him from the family already by saying that you won't be his step-parent. I don't get it.
Then you go on to say that your BF should do this and that with his son. Hang on, I thought you didn't want to be involved with the son's parenting?
But you still want son to do as you say and have respect for you and your daughter?

I think this is more to do with you and BF, Delphine. I get the feeling that son is just the scapegoat.
Sorry if I'm being harsh, I really don't want you to think that removing son is the only way to solve your situation. Like it or not, he's your BF's son.

[Anonymous]

Delphine:

I thought I might weigh in on this topic.  I have a neice who is similar in attitude.  I think the haughtiness, the "I am above you attitude" is just a front and wall to protect himself from the hurt he has experienced from his mom and dad.  If he is obnoxious enough then he is protected.  Therefore no friends, no girl friends etc.  Having said that, even though he is exerting his independence in a negative way, it is still a statement of independence on his part.  In having that independence he has to take responsiblity for the consequences.  

If a rank stranger came into your house and acted this way what would your response be to this child?  I would bet that you would say, this is how this house operates, if you want to make independent decisions that are not good for you then these are the consequences.  

One other point, if you and your BF buy this house, what makes you think that this young man is going to stay in college and not return on your doorstep?  Clearly going to college means being able to manage yourself, your time and be purpose driven, when he obviously lacks.  

Once your life is hooked financially to your BF and new stepson, you are in for the duration, warts and all.  Just my 2c.  Patz

[delphine]

Thank ypou Patz and Kaz,
Kaz, you had some really good questions that made me look harder:

You said you "would not step-parent this kid". Seems to me that he's part of the BF package because he still lives with him. Just as your daughter is part of your package that you want your BF to accept. Their ages are irrelevant.
You also want son to "make changes to adjust to our new family life". But you've excluded him from the family already by saying that you won't be his step-parent. I don't get it.
Then you go on to say that your BF should do this and that with his son. Hang on, I thought you didn't want to be involved with the son's parenting?
But you still want son to do as you say and have respect for you and your daughter?

Good points... I have a mom who remarried 8 times. I consider the ones she married when I was living at home my stepparent, the others are just my mom's husband (I do have some ruder terms.. lol but I digress)

As parents we are responsible for minor children but not adult children. I really enjoy BFs older son, he visits, has stayed at my house (I have more room). We trade emails. I am an artist and he loves hanging in my studio. He's discussed his parental situation with me, I tell him what I think when he asks, but he doesn't have to do what I say because he's an adult. I'm more mentor, friend, sounding board than step parent.

Early on BF discussed his concerns about younger son with me- concerned that he might not have what it takes to be a successful man. Hence our conversations about social skills began.

Kaz, this kid was mostly raised when I met him, and I think he still has the potential to become a fine adult. I think his problem stems from being over indulged. I see putting him out on his own as the CARING thing to do, the one that will give him a chance to self correct his beligerence and misdirected anger. My dilemma is... well...hmmm  hemmm, it IS also self serving on my part, I'd rather fast forward to his mid 20s when he's grown up some!

I expect ALL adults, relatives or no, to show respect for my daughter and myself in our home. Verbal abuse is not tolerated. Feelings are respected. Do you have your own household yet (you sound young to me, sorry if I am wrong..) ? It makes a big difference to be able to come home to a mutually supportive, emotionally safe environment.

I have a rule here, no guns in my house. Gun owners are welcome but their guns are not. If BFs son wants to come home from college, he cannot bring a gun. I consider his verbal abuse just like a gun- it hurts, it wounds, it is used to protect oneself by hurting others.

How would you solve this problem; can you see any alternatives?

Patz, the reference to your neice was very insightful, thank you. Did her parents find ways to help her stop?

You also brought up

f you and your BF buy this house, what makes you think that this young man is going to stay in college and not return on your doorstep?

Really, that's why I am talking this out with BF now. I plan to show him ALL your responses- so Son supporters, speak up!!!!My whole point is that I'd rather have him show up feeling a bit deflated because right now his ego doesn't fit through the door...I am banking on other people besides myself and BF giving him some of the same feedback, ya know, "hey, buddy, lighten up."....I mean, nobody wants to hear this "my problems are all about you" garbage. I'm counting on his intelligence (he really is very smart and can be funny) kicking in when he has more incentive to change.

I think that all people who get fucked over in life get a bit controlling, and blame is his weapon, but how DO we get him to lay it down?

Again, thanks to both of you for your wonderful insights, it's very helpful
.
Delphine

[Kaz]

Hi Delphine,
 

As parents we are responsible for minor children but not adult children.

Agreed, but what if a child needs a bit of extra parenting to make up for a deficit from the earlier years? I'm not saying that you're responsible for him, his father is. He's the one who should be doing the catch-up lessons, maybe this is where you're feeling frustrated and trying to force the issue?
Of-course you want to have your relationship with his father foremost, but he's come with the baggage. It's unfair to make him choose between you two. Is this what it's about?

to be able to come home to a mutually supportive, emotionally safe environment.

Maybe this is what son wants also? He's only 17.
 
Thanks for the 'young' compliment! I'm actually an old hand at the household thing, over 30 years experience and with adult kids.

[delphine]

Hi Kaz,
How CAN you parent someone who doesn't want it, who resents and rejects all offers of help as interference? If you even ask son "how was your day?" he is likely to answer, "Quit prying into my business" (allthough sometimes he will answer).

This is what it's like to spend time with him:
Last summer, BF, son and I  visited a college out of town. I had some business in that town and at the time really was trying to get to know son. He was insulting, rude, and nasty the entire time. When we pointed out good aspects of this college, he told us how stupid our opinions were. He and BF took the tour together, I met them later. By this time he liked the school for many of the same reasons we had pointed out, but he was still nasty on the ride home.  He now says this is a college he really likes, but never thanks us for suggesting it, or taking our time to tour it.

One night son, BF, my 11 yr old daughter and I played cards, my daughter was winning. He told her off, how she wasn't playing by the right rules. He got the rule book out and she was right. Stomped into his room. BF tried to talk this out with him but he views this as "you are always taking her side."

What do you think we can offer this kid that would help?

Oh, he ALSO can't get along with his grandparents or uncle's family. They have all told me that it isn't me, that son is hard to get along with, has never been close or communicative to them either. We've even looked into whether he has Asperger's Syndrom, Defiant Personality Disorder, etc. Does not. He has the capacity to change his behavour but won't.

My BF loves his son so much it hurts, and I would support him in anything that could help him but NOTHING has. I was the one who suggested therapy.... that's been worthless so far. If the kid had his father "all to himself" he wouldn't be happy. When they are home alone together he is in his room with the door shut.

Do you have any practical suggestions? Because giving him a chance
to be able to come home to a mutually supportive, emotionally safe environment can't work, since he won't allow MUTUAL.

Delphine

[Anonymous]

delphine:

Unfortunately, no, my neice modeled her life after her N mother and N father (my brother).  When she smiles, you can see the anger just under the surface.  She is aggressive and overbearing.  I remember going  home once, and I overheard my niece relate to her friend, "you know it is just like a light switch with the guys I date, after six months I am tired of them."  This is not a person who is 16.  My niece goes through relationships like kleenex.  The only ones that really stay around is to serve her purposes and are sychophants (hangers on).  She come from a wealthy family so she does as she pleases. She is a N in progress due to her upbringing.  My niece is also very smart, and self absorbed.  Well, just like you I owe that to their age.  However my niece is going on 26 so as the saying goes "the die is cast."

I think my nieces overbearing attitude, haughtiness and arrogance is a brick wall to protect herself.  She has been hurt by her mom and dad and their self absorption with their own needs.  I remember going home for Christmas and my brother and I went Christmas shopping.  My brother told me he would "utilize" my niece do help him do the rest of his shopping.  I thought the word "utilize" was very unusual  inasmuch when you make a request of someone it is not to "utilize" them.  I think the word utilize connotes the absorption of their energy and talents for your benefit.  It would have been more approprite to state, "I think I will ask her if she would like to come along with us to help if she has time."  So you see the genesis of my nieces behavior has been abetted by her parents.

Patz

[Anonymous]

DELPHINE-Years ago, when my daughter was in her teens, her favorite term for me was "nerd or dweeb."  At the time, my boss, who was an ex-school teacher, said to me, "You are lucky she is even talking to you."  She was making reference to my daughter's age.  

I know nothing of the history of your family.  I am assuming that his parents are divorced.  I know nothing of their familial history.  But upon cursory glance, it appears that he has some serious unresolved childhood issues that are manifesting as anger which is overshadowing a great deal of emotional pain.

Pushing him in any direction probably makes things worse.  I would say that you are going to have to bite the bullet and wait it out.  He will quickly learn in college that the cause and effect of his "acting out"  won't work there for very long.   Apparently it has been working for him at home.  Pushing at him will only serve to widen the gap IMO.

[Anonymous]

delphine,

My hobby is reading about psychoanalysis. I don't know much about teens except I was one. I acted out, but not like this kid. My parents wouldn't have put up with it. I would have been terrified to behave as he does. I don't think terror is what a parent wants to evoke; but respect tinged with fear of parental disapproval sounds okay.

Your BF needs to set clear limits, enforce them, and not tolerate what he's been tolerating. If it means the son gets kicked out at age 18, then that is how it will be. You have a lot of leverage right now because you have his 18th birthday as a deadline by which his behavior improves or he's out. His choice. This needs to be done with no anger at all. Just a neutral 'you made the choice and we assume you will make it out there.' If the kid wants to discuss it IN A THERAPY SESSION that is okay. Otherwise there is no room for discussion. He behaves better or he's out. That's the deal. Arguing is a waste of time, it's just stalling and he will test to see if his dad caves. His dad must not cave ever again. He's failed every test so far (sorry, I'm sure he's a nice guy) but starting today he can set limits.

There are two issues going on: (1) Understanding this boy's tragedy and inner torture; (2) His behavior. I can understand and empathize with the trauma this kid experienced in his mother choosing some guy over him. That is devastating. So what. That doesn't preclude his having to behave like a human being. If we all got to abuse others because crap happened to us, it would be pretty bad.

I don't know the specifics of how your BF reacts to this boy's abuse, and the mutual projections are pretty complicated. So I hope this therapist can help or you can find a better one (if it's worth it).

One book that is kind of interesting although it's about little children is Object Relations Family Therapy by Scharff and Scharff. You learn all about the way children internalize things.


bunny

[Anonymous]

Delphine,
Guest wrote,

He will quickly learn in college that the cause and effect of his "acting out" won't work there for very long. Apparently it has been working for him at home.

If he learns that the behvior that works at home doesn't work in college you are possibly more likely to find him out of college and living at home, than to find his behavior altered.
It would be nice if therapy 'fixed' him or father time or the school of hard knocks. But whatever the outcome this surely seems like something that absolutely needs to be resolved before you marry, buy a house or make any permanent commitment. If you don't, you may be living in a mine field or worse; you might be engaged in trench warfare. That's not fair or healthy to either side of the equation.
If its not resolved, its not that hard for a smart kid to ruin a marriage, if he is so inclined. Its pretty hard to have the Brady Bunch if Peter views Mrs. Brady and Cindy as the enemy who ruined his cozy nest, or vice versa for that matter.

mudpup

[Anonymous]

Hi again:

I have had the experience of setting a limit with my child and having that child leave because the limit was unacceptable (in my child's opinion).

Rereading some pages of this thread and I realized I should clarify here.  My child was 17 (nearing 18th birthday) at that time and so even though I used the term "child", it is more accurate to say.. approaching adulthood.  I guess to me my children will always be my children, even grown up.  I hope that's the mother, not the N in me.

So much to read here Delphine.  That's a good thing.  Gives you lot's to consider.   Hope it is all helping.

GFN

[delphine]

Thank you ALL so much! I have read each post 5 times and BF and also my best friend are reading and marveling at the insight, concern and generous donation of your time.
Patz, I am sorry to hear about your neice. It was really chilling to read
 

My brother told me he would "utilize" my niece do help him do the rest of his shopping.

She is just treating people the way she has been treated. I wonder if this is at the root of my BFs son's attitude. I never met his mom and have no right to judge her, but what do you think about a woman who left her son and husband for another man "because it's something I have to do for myself?" And since then, she pays no support, got him no birthday gift (told him the book he wanted was too expensive) yet calls to tell him how her DOGS are doing-?????

Guest, this is absolutely true

Pushing him in any direction probably makes things worse.

He is hyper sensitive and reactive to nudging or suggestions, let alone pushing!

Bunny, thank you for so much consideration. BF and I will be talking over your recommendations very seriously this weekend. And THIS reinforces something I've thought

Otherwise there is no room for discussion. He behaves better or he's out. That's the deal. Arguing is a waste of time,

BF likes to have looooong talks with son and son complains that his dad 'lectures' him too much. BF, in trying to be fair and reasonable, is giving his power as a parent away. That is how I see it... perhaps reading it from someone else will make it sound clearer to him.
You also commented

I don't know the specifics of how your BF reacts to this boy's abuse,

BF  has tried almost everything but he primarily tries reasoning with son in long, drawn out talks, in which son gets equal time to "speak his mind" ie belittle his dad. BF also shouts him down sometimes. What I don't see happening enough is enforcing consequences, no discussion. Son is so quiet and withdrawn much of the time that BF is actually happy that son is expressing anything and usually misses how nasty it is. Son throws barbs and snide putdowns in with jovial humor. it's like poisoned fruit. He also rages; that's more obvious.

Mud, I hoped you were still following this since you have experience and I think you understand best of all how conflicted I feel taking such a hard stance. You also made me LOL with

If its not resolved, its not that hard for a smart kid to ruin a marriage, if he is so inclined. Its pretty hard to have the Brady Bunch if Peter views Mrs. Brady and Cindy as the enemy who ruined his cozy nest

funny, but true!!! I think you said your MIL was in this situation, I am sorry to hear about that. I would LOVE to hear more about how you booted your SS, did he visit after that, what was the process and how long did it take him to realize that he gave you no other choice? Also, your MILs situation. I am talking about this very openly w/BF, and have said repeatedly that son is the only thing I can ever see us break up over. I really don't want that and neither does he. We are so compatible in many ways and he is so GOOD to my daughter. I am good to his older son and I've tried very hard with young son, I REALLY have...

GFN, I know it must have broken your heart to have your son leave rather than accept a reasonable boundary. If you have time to tell us some details about what you went thru, I think BF could feel less alone. One of the things I LOVE about BF is that, like you, his kids are always his BOYS. I wish my mom cared about me like that.
you said

So much to read here Delphine. That's a good thing. Gives you lot's to consider. Hope it is all helping.

So very much!!! It's a huge issue and one that sometimes outsiders can see better than those close to us both. And sometimes its just great to read rather than hear someone's feedback- more time tio digest it slowly.

Thanks and blessings to you alll, please keep adding your comments when you have time,

Delphine

[Anonymous]

Hi Delphine and all again:

I'm glad you are considering all the input here and I am impressed that your BF is considering this too.  It sounds like you will have lot's to discuss and consider together and the discussion will likely help.

When my child left, I felt devestated.  I felt like a failure as a parent.  Something inside me broke.  It was like losing my left arm (and I'm left handed).  It was heartbreaking and an awful experience.  I wanted to run after my child and say:  "Come back, never mind.  Do as you like." but my brain would not allow me to do that (poor one little functioning brain cell that is).

The truth is.....I did not remain devestated for long.  I am not a failure as a parent.   Actually, I'm a very good parent.  Nothing inside me is permanently broken and my left arm is still where it has always been.  My heart did feel broken and it was an awful experience but it was also a necessary experience.  It hurt me tremendously but it is what my child needed.  I lived and so did my child.   It was necessary for my child to learn and grow.

That's what happened.  My child learned and grew and later, almost thanked me (not quite but close).

Some people call it tough love.  Some people say it's setting limits.
I say....it's all what we are willing to tolerate.

I was not willing to tolerate a defiant, lounging, hotel-like-guest, who was taking advantage of the situation, who refused to look for a job for the second summer in a row, who had no intentions of helping with any chore without causing a war, who was leaving messes about the house, while I was out working, and who was quite intelligent and able bodied and capable of finding a summer job and helping out a little, when occasionally asked.

That was what I was not willing to tolerate any longer and so I did what was necessary to get my point across and.......my child left.

I won't say it was easy and I won't say it didn't hurt me but I think it did my child a lot of good and the outcome was worth the pain endured by all parties.  

Hope I haven't scared ya'll away.
 
GFN

[Anonymous]

BF likes to have looooong talks with son and son complains that his dad 'lectures' him too much.

Yeah I don't think this is going to be effective. His son is not interested in a long talk. That is boring/oppressive to him and feels like a lecture even if it's not. The boy has a conflict. He wants someone to care but he doesn't want to feel intruded upon. When he is intruded upon, the rage is powerful and he makes snide remarks. It's ironic that people who were abandoned hate intrusions but that's how it works. I think talking to him in sound-bites might work better. And if a conversation starts going south and Dad senses that he is heading toward shouting him down, it may be optimal to table the conversation until later.

Basically I think 'discussions' are a waste of time. Fewer words and action are what's called for. Dad is going to get far more accomplished if he has clear limits as to what he will/won't tolerate and if there are immediate consequences enforced. The less anger Dad displays the better. The kid is testing to see when Dad will lose it and start yelling. If Dad does not get to that point, the kid will be (a) curious; (b) have nothing to react to; (c) might feel less oppressed and trapped by Dad. Another thing is for Dad to take responsibility for his own screwups with the son; but not take more than his share, and not make a big deal out of it. Just matter-of-factly admit to some mistakes and state that he will make an effort not to repeat them. When a lot of blame is cast back and forth, resentment builds up. If people are kind of blase about mistakes and don't have to blame someone, the teenager might feel safer to make mistakes himself.

I don't think this is easy for anyone. But he is not a four year old and he can't be given all this leeway. He may be incredibly immature but the world isn't going to tolerate it and you don't have to either.

bunny

[Anonymous]

Hi delphine,
Well my MIL had her own problem. She was married to a really great guy. I got to know him before he died. He was my wife's stepdad but she thought of him as her second dad. He had a son by his first marriage who took it upon himself to destroy MIL's marriage. I met him a time or two. He definitely had a few bent spokes. The long and the short is he wrecked their marriage by constantly undermining her and causing constant divisions and at the time he was too young to kick out and too wacky to get fixed. Cunning little b*****d.

My SS. Like I said before, somebody flicked a switch at 17 and 1/2 and my nice little fishing buddy turned into Notorious B.I.G.   The problem we had was he was depressed, otherwise he would have been gone much sooner but we were concerned that he might do something crazy if we just gave him the boot. So we put up with some pretty insolent behavior for quite some time. He got into drugs and alcohol (I found out later) and then wrecked his car. Shortly thereafter he started to trash his room because he couldn't borrow our car so at that point I got him in a nice bear hug and escorted him out the door.
He went and sponged off of friends and relatives for two or three years, then slowly started waking up. He got his GED, got a series of jobs, and eventually moved back in after he had proven he had turned around. This was on the condition he finish his schooling which was to become a licensed minister. He did that without a hitch and recently moved out (with a little push) and is on his own, older but much, much wiser(I hope).
He now wonders why we put up with his behavior, but with the depression he was suffering it was just not possible to kick him out. I think that saved his life. He wasn't spoiled, in fact he was amazingly pleasant until he got close to adulthood. He was dealing with issues of abandonment as well. He hasn't seen his dad since he was five. Another whacko. But its not a matter of blame or punishment its how do you protect the rest of the family or alter someone's behavior if they refuse to alter it themselves. Sometimes the most compassionate thing to do is to use the toe of a large hard boot.
If he had not had the depression but was just a pain in the hind quarters, he would have been much better off getting the boot at eighteen. He wasted five years of his life before exposure to trying to survive on his own put a serious crimp in his attitude.
I don't know what's best for your SS right now, but if he isn't willing to try and change and he keeps trying to manipulate his dad, sooner or later he is probably going to end up skidding down to the mailbox on his nose with the door locked behind him. It is very tough for two adult men to live in that situation. Eventually something's got to give and nine times out of ten its the kid.

mudpup