New and down and out

[b as guest]

astrofemme,

I think it's natural to fall into depression once the divorce is over and it's back to routine living. Your life may be rather empty due to the N's machinations. Maybe you're starting at ground zero. That's okay, it gives you a lot of new possibilities. Do something good for yourself every day. It's not like you can wake up one morning and be totally recovered from the trauma of this marriage (and by extension your childhood).

mati,

It sounds like your sons have been brainwashed for decades by their father. He led them to believe they had to be his henchmen. I don't think you can undo this by yourself. Either they will go to therapy with you (unlikely, since it challenges their brainwashing), or their girlfriends, male friends, others, will challenge their thinking. They may revise their opinions on their own. My suggestion, for what it's worth, is to work on yourself, protect yourself, realize that if you show some anger and they don't like it, TOO BAD. Tolerate their negative reaction and don't let it get to you (and don't show your discomfort!). If you can tolerate their dislike and rejection for a while, they will realize you are much stronger than they think. Right now they think you're weak. And they think Dad is weak and they have to protect him. This makes them feel powerful. They haven't yet seen a parent who is secure in themselves. That means they will test you repeatedly to see whether you have boundaries and whether you respect yourself. They know Dad doesn't respect himself but they aren't ready to abandon him. They think that's their only choice. Do you know what I'm saying?

bunny

[Mati]

Wow bunny

When I think of all the time I have coped with this one alone because no-one undetrstands or could give me a clue how to act..... Yes he has brainwashed them for a long time. I cannot believe that I was so dumb. But that's because I am honest with my feelings whereas he is not. You are exactly right in what you say. They think that they are stopping him from commiting suicide. That's where he had me for a long time. I have noticed that the few times that I have stood up for myself and objected to something thery say I get a touch of respect. They will never abandon their father until they know he is bad and not mad and you are right, they may have their thinking challenged by friends/girlfriends and there is not much I can do but get myself recovered. I have put up with a lot of **** from them and sometimes I feel like I have had it. Thankfully today I feel stronger again. But I will be more laid back with them and let them come to me more and offer less help to them. I have gone back to school and they have decided to do that now too. Their father just sits doing nothing. Thanks again for the insight.

Mati

[October]

 Thankfully today I feel stronger again. But I will be more laid back with them and let them come to me more and offer less help to them. I have gone back to school and they have decided to do that now too. Their father just sits doing nothing. Thanks again for the insight.

Mati

Hiya Mati

I am sorry for the position you find yourself in.  It sounds like a nightmare.

I have told my daughter this story, which is an excerpt from Trapped in the Mirror by Elan Golomb.  It is quite a difficult story, but I find it grows in meaning, the more I think about it.

"A mother bird was able to fly only one of her four babies at a time across the ocean.  She put a fledgeling on her wing and said, "When I am old, will you fly across the ocean with me on your wing?"
"Oh yes, mother" said the birdie out of love.  Mother took this baby out over the ocean and dropped it in.  
She went back for the second, and asked the same question.  "Mother I love you so much that I will save you then."  
The second birdie followed the first into the drink.  Mother dropped the third one to drown for the very same response and approached her fourth.
Asked what this birdie would one day do when it was grown and she was old, it answered. "Oh Mother, forgive me.  I love you so much, but when I am your age I shall have my own young to carry across the sea."
This baby was carried to the farther shore."

Which means that children should not sacrifice themselves to save their parents' lives.  It might feel like the right thing to do, but actually it is not.  The child becomes the adult, and the parent becomes the child.  Even though your sons are quite grown up, they still have the right to be the children to you and their dad, rather than having to take the parental role themselves.  

I agree with the comments about taking your son to family therapy, if you can do it.

[October]

 However, I think I'm sliding into depression.  I feel like I was flattened by my ex.  I have no support network because he was jealous of friends and I have so many NPD relatives.  

I work hard to rouse myself.  Some days are good; some aren't.  I guess I'm wondering if I am just expecting too much too soon out of myself considering what I've gone through and am learning about?  Is this a normal stage of recovery after what I've gone through?  What are the special circumstances survivors of narcissism go through?  I want to feel good again.  When will I crawl up out of this black hole I'm in?  Did any of you going through this have a period of feeling like you were in a deep, dark hole?

I would say that depression is a normal part of the reaction to what you have gone through.  Many of us have had the same, and the depression can either lift after a short time or be more resilient, depending on whatever else is going on.

The best I can suggest is that you accept the depression as a symptom of whatever else is around, and try not to be too hard on yourself.  There are no 'shoulds' or 'oughts' with depression.  You are doing well to keep going, and an important part of that is to recognise achievements, and allow yourself to feel good when you see them.  It is very easy to dismiss what we have done, and only see what we have failed to achieve, and then to spiral downwards as a result.  (Been there!!)

[Mati]

Hi October

Thanks for that story. I will give it a lot of thought. Yes I totally agree with you that a child should not have to be the parent. I think that I can forgive my husband for what he has done to me but I do not know how I can forgive him for what he has done to my sons. Perverting someones reality is a terrible crime but I knew reality before I met him and can get back into it but they have known nothing but his lies and twisting of the truth. If only I had found this site sooner when my son was more open and saying he did not know who to believe. His father stepped things up though and I feel that I am losing. But thanks for your post.

[Anonymous]

Hi all:

Hello Astrofemme and welcome.

He was a prize alright.............it was like having an infection drained.

This made me giggle  and it would be funny, if it wasn't so sad.

Maybe the depression is the infection coming out?  You've been through many years of stuff and now that you are finally away, and all the details of going are done with......you are grieving all that you have lost.  Who wouldn't feel sad?    That's a long time to spend with someone and that experience/recalling it may revisit what happened in childhood...so there is more grieving.  

Glad you are here and hope you will find the support you need.

Same to you Mati.    It's not very nice having your children brainwashed against you....especially by strong forces.     I agree that you must look after you and do whatever is necessary to help yourself out of whatever downward spiral is occurring.

Maybe don't ever give up hope that your kids will one day come to see you in a better light?   Rather, maybe hold onto that hope and work toward improving yourself/your life in anticipation/patiently waiting for that to happen?

GFN

[Mati]

GFN

Maybe don't ever give up hope that your kids will one day come to see you in a better light? Rather, maybe hold onto that hope and work toward improving yourself/your life in anticipation/patiently waiting for that to happen?

That is just about the best thing I have heard, giving me hope. Thanks so much.

[October]

 I sure wish I could take meds sometimes    But yes validation is really helpful. The worst effect of the PSD for me is the mush my mind has become

I too have ptsd, and I also find that anti depressants and psychotics are too strong for me.  (Yes, was prescribed both at one time; took ads for years, on gradually increasing doses.  Ptsd is very resilient to ads, imo.)

I now take St John's Wort, but not every day, and not the full dose.  The bottle says to take 3 every day.  I don't.  I take one when I need it, like aspirin.  Then, if I feel bad later in the day I take another, but I never take more than 2 in a day.  It helps enough to take the edge off the depression, without turning me into a zombie.  It also helps to know there is something there, although to be honest, I haven't taken any for weeks now.  Yesterday I almost did, but then I forgot.  

More info on meds etc on http://www.bein.com/cgi-bin/gforum/gforum.cgi?
Support site for ptsd.  Don't leave here, though.  

[October]

Perverting someones reality is a terrible crime but I knew reality before I met him and can get back into it but they have known nothing but his lies and twisting of the truth. If only I had found this site sooner when my son was more open and saying he did not know who to believe. His father stepped things up though and I feel that I am losing. But thanks for your post.

It is easy to feel this way, and to despair, but I would say that your sons can see you, and can see another version of the truth.  It must be very confusing for them, but they are your sons too, and I am sure that in time things will get easier with them.  You are not losing, and neither are they.  There are many people here who spent years buying into the N lives of parents or spouses, but who nonetheless found a way out, even without a loving mother to help them.

Sometimes people become more entrenched in an opinion or point of view when they are faced with an alternative.  It is part of the reassessment process to first of all deny the alternative, before then looking at it in more detail, especially if the person proposing the alternative does not become entrenched in their turn.  Imo, you have said what is true, and that is enough.  Leave it to your boys good sense, now, and they will work it out for themselves.  But if you get the chance, always tell the truth as you see it.

Give them time, and meanwhile show them what love is, and what a healthy lifestyle is.  (((((hugs)))))

[Mati]

October (((hugs)))

Thanks for that site. I had forgotten about St John's Wort. I have taken Kalms when I felt really distressed and I think I will get them out of the cupboard to get me through this period and try the SJW as well. Boy again, am I glad I found this place.  

Yes of course, others find a way out with n parents and go on to be whole. How encouraging. I maybe have been trying too hard and maybe saying too much at once and will leave things now for a while, to let the one I have spoken to think about it.  Things have been worse though and I have lost a bit of contact with him. He was opening up a bit but it stopped even though I was being as careful as I could be. Coping with grief at losing my relationship with them at the same time as trying to keep in contact whilst being treat coolly and offhand is the hardest thing I have had to do.

One problem has been a 'friend' who I see occasionally and who has been encouraging me to have nothing to do with them now. I can feel myself distancing from them  but I don't want to do that nor could I go on as I was. I think that she had a motive in that she has no contact with any of her family and wants others to be the same as her, whereas I believe in forgiveness. I need to know where to draw the line when being abused and helping my sons out financially when they both are better off than me is one thing I have stopped. I was able to cope with all of this before and be strong but I don't seem to be able to do it anymore. But coming here has helped me a great deal knowing I am not alone and there are others here who can advise. Oh joy I have just received a friendly e-mail from the son I talk most about! He has been busy recently. I am so on a roller coaster worried all the time they will break contact.

thanks October

[Anonymous]

Hi Mati:

I'm glad that what I said gave you hope.  Don't ever let go of that hope!  It's important and no one knows what will happen in the future.  It is quite possible that things between you and your sons will improve, especially since you are trying so hard and want that so much.

I learned that there is a scale of parenting.  At one end of the scale is the dominating parent and at the other, is the door mat.  The dominating parents says:  "Go get your boots on now!", in a dominating tone, and the door mat says:  "If you feel like, when you're ready, if it isn't too much bother, please, please get your boots on, as long as you want to", in a weak tone.  These are extreme examples ofcourse.

It's impossible to be perfect and not tend toward one end of the scale or the other, in our parenting careers.  No one is a perfect parent.

I tend to be more of a door mat, at times.  Often times, actually, and that isn't good.  I think society expects that of us as mothers.  We are supposed to constantly sacrifice and meet every need of our children, as often as we can (which I have done and really felt it was ok, at the time).  In the last few years, I have been working away from that because I realize that my children will benefit by learning a happier medium.

And because I have needs too.  Denying my needs breeds resentment (even if it is unconscious resentment).  The problem is knowing what I need, expressing what I need, without seeming that mine are the only needs.  That would be dominating.  So, I guess, as most people are, I am trying for some where in the middle.  But......definately aiming away from giving in too often,  which leaves me feeling used and as if my needs are nothing.

It feels really weird to voice my needs sometimes (because I don't expect my children to meet my needs.  I expect to meet theirs).  The happy medium might be something like:  "I need you to please put your boots on because it's time to leave and I don't want us to be late".  

Express the need/desire, the action wanted, the reason for it.  Short and sweet.  I've done this some of the time but maybe not most of the time.

Maybe you are a bit like me and need to do a litte more work on expressing your needs.

"I need to know you're ok.  Would you please call me because it would really help to hear from you and about what's going on in your life.  I like to hear from you."

Would that be close?

A friend once said:  "To a teenager, parents are just a wallet with wheels".

This helped me to feel ok, that my teenager wasn't ignoring my needs on purpose, that other people experienced the same thing, teens wanting cash and a ride and that's about it.  Not really interested in the parent because it's a normal part of teenagehood.  To live their own life, be with their friends, go out, do things, have fun, and still be dependant in certain respects on parents.  It's part of becoming an adult, while being a kid at the same time.  It's a gradual turnover.

Now your sons are adults.  You don't have to be a wallet with wheels any more.  The pendulum has to shift.  They have to learn that you are there to support them but that they must become independant. Otherwise, what will happen when you're gone?  No more money from mom.  No one to depend on and unable to depend on themselves.

And....if this continues.....you will resent not having your simplest needs met.  That's not being a good mother.  That's being a door mat, imo.  I know what that's like and I also know that it is not easy to swing to the center and stay there.   There will always be times when I am a door mat.  But once in awhile, I intend to be downright dominant.....if they choose to totally ignor my needs.   And I can be dominant, politely, kindly and respectfully.

"Please call me at some time when you don't need money.  I need to know that you care about me and not just my wallet.  I care about you and would appreciate very much just talking with you sometimes."

or

"I hope you don't believe everything you hear about me because gossip tends to be distorted and untrue.  I'd like to spend more time together and work on building a closer relationship.  Then you can judge for yourself.  I care about you and I miss you."  

It meets our needs to express our feelings too.  Your sons will live through hearing how you feel.  They will probably grow into  better men by you doing that.  Moms are supposed to just listen (according to the prophesy) but the truth is....moms are people too.

Don't know if any of this will help.  I hope so.  Sorry if it's way off.

GFN

[October]

October (((hugs)))

Thanks for that site. I had forgotten about St John's Wort. I have taken Kalms when I felt really distressed and I think I will get them out of the cupboard to get me through this period and try the SJW as well. Boy again, am I glad I found this place.  

Might be an idea to check with a pharmacist if you want to use both together. SJW is very similar in effect to an a/d in my experience; same side effects.  Just call me overprotective!!  

Yes of course, others find a way out with n parents and go on to be whole. How encouraging. I maybe have been trying too hard and maybe saying too much at once and will leave things now for a while, to let the one I have spoken to think about it.  

I don't remember anyone here saying you have been trying too hard!!  Trying too hard to be a good mum to your boys?  Can't be done.  

One problem has been a 'friend' who I see occasionally and who has been encouraging me to have nothing to do with them now. I can feel myself distancing from them  but I don't want to do that nor could I go on as I was. I think that she had a motive in that she has no contact with any of her family and wants others to be the same as her, whereas I believe in forgiveness.

I have this problem with some of my friends too.  You are very perceptive in recognising that sometimes what your friend says is more about her than about you.  It is about learning to hear that still small voice inside, and learning to trust it.  If you follow your own intuitions, as you have done, you won't go far wrong, imo, even if the whole world seems to be on the other side at times.  (Been there!!)  

Oh joy I have just received a friendly e-mail from the son I talk most about! He has been busy recently. I am so on a roller coaster worried all the time they will break contact.

I think you are right to let your sons be financially independent of you now, if they are better off than you are.  What you can provide that their dad is unlikely to be able to is emotional support.  Be there to cheer the good times and empathise in the bad times.  If I had that from anyone at all in my immediate family it would be invaluable.  

I'm glad your son has emailed.  I think he is unlikely to break contact as long as he knows that you love him, and accept him as he is.  Maybe not everything he does, but who he is as a person.  Any Ns around will be doing the opposite.

Just thought of one more thing.  If you have problems sleeping, liquid Valerian Root from the health food shop is good.  But beware; it smells awful.  But if you can bear it, it helps.  

[Mati]

Hi GFN

Yes you are right. I am a doormat and assume that I should meet my childrens' needs, sacrificing myself. Childhood sexual abuse made sure that my needs were thought unimportant, in fact I did not know I had any for a long time!. That is such an insight for me because I bottle up resentment up until it explodes and then this sudden this anger pops up leaving the other person wonder what on earth they did to deserve that! Nowadays I am much more aware of what my needs are but not how to express them. The examples you gave were just great and I will use them.  They are exactly what I want to say.

Yes teenagers are pre-occupied with their own lives, and need to be so, and if I was living with them then I would not be feeling ignored and used. But I am sick and have had a hard time setting up a new home, after having to leave because n ended the marriage, but would not get out himself and he had the boys ganged up with him against me so that I was voiceless and powerless. But all that they can see is that 'we have all had it hard'. They accept that their father should have left, but they wanted to live with him, he being the permissive one, who would let them lie in bed half the day, fill the fridge with beer etc. so me leaving was the best plan in their eyes. I was in such a bad way and did not think I could have coped with their resentment if I had made n leave. They have a lot of issues with me and I have listened to them and said sorry when needed but a lot of it is because n has twisted their reality so that they say that have been traumatised by what I call normal parental behaviour like looking in their rooms once because I was worried about secret drinking and shop lifting. N drove me to the limits so that I would express his anger. Then he used that by letting the boys think that he was protecting them from me. Your post has been a great help, thanks.

Hio October

Yes I will check it out first. I started on the Kalms and feel the benefit already, not so distressed and I bought some camomile tea which is great in helping me sleep. I tried valerian but it is not so good for me and I feel a bit groggy the next day with it.

When I said trying too hard, I meant that I was trying too hard to get their regard, after they had been so angry with me when the arguments got real bad before I left home. I am trying to get them to love me I think but i know it will not work.

Yes I am really learning to listen to the small voice inside after ignoring it badly (with the red flags) especially when I met n. Another area of recovery after child sex abuse (molested by an uncle) I have listened to others too much before but I have learnt to take what they say and test it against what my intuition tells me and just leave it if I am not sure. I really believe that we can rely on it to guide us. I am doing a course for assessing a career etc that teaches you to get into a relaxed state and let the thought come into your mind, on what you will be doing in a years time. The vision you get is your aim for the future. I found this incredibly helpful.

Yes my sons do not get any emotional support from anywhere and I want to give it to them but sometimes it gets a bit complicated due to what I am going through. This is the first time I have been on my own, in a safe place where I can recover, not just from 22 years with n, but a whole lifetime of trauma and abuse with the help of counselling, and I am learning at a phenominal rate!! Every week I can see improvement and talking out the trauma before I left has reduced numerous symptoms and I am sleeping a bit better, have slightly better intellectual function and glory be! have got my comfort eating in control for the first time! And now I have found this board!  Actually I think it has come at the right time rather than too late to get through to my sons. Thanks October for your help.

[Anonymous]

Oh Dear Mati:

You are not a door mat.  You may have tended toward parenting in that style but that style does not make up what you are.  I'm sure there were times when you also tended toward the centre of that scale but maybe you are not recalling those times right now.  No matter.  I just don't want you to label yourself in a negative way.  It's a learning experience right?  Like all else.  And you are trying your best to improve your skill which is all any parent can do.

I'm so sorry for all the abuse you have been through.    It sounds like you have suffered so much.    How awful for you!  Is this the first counselling you've received?  I'm glad it's helping.  You need support and you are a smart lady to get it.  Good for you!

I bottle up resentment up until it explodes and then this sudden this anger pops up leaving the other person wonder what on earth they did to deserve that!

Maybe there are some other things you can do to help with this?  Do you keep a journal to write your feelings in?  This helps me a lot so I was just wondering.  Sometimes, I put a pillow on the couch and let myself talk, yell, cry, etc to the person I am upset with.  Also, excercise...walking really helps.  I'm sure you are not the only one who has ever let out excessive anger/resentment toward an inappropriate recipient.  The trick....I think, is getting it out...before it gets a chance to build up to such proportions.  Maybe this would help you?

he had the boys ganged up with him against me so that I was voiceless and powerless.

I'm sorry that you had to move out under such stressful conditions.  It is not fair of one spouse to form a troop with the kids against the other spouse....for no good reason other than to make the other spouse look nasty.  What a big baby he is!!!  Needs his boys to defend his position against big bad scarey mommy eh?  That was downright juvenile and underhanded.  I can relate to your feelings and all I can say is .....he is a little snake.

Every dog has his day, Mati.

they wanted to live with him, he being the permissive one, who would let them lie in bed half the day, fill the fridge with beer etc. so me leaving was the best plan in their eyes.

This hurts.  I'm sorry Mati about this.  You might be tempted to think that they are saying that you aren't needed, are unimportant, even that they love their dad more, or similar thoughts.  But these things are probably not true.  These guys just want to live where it is easiest to do as they like.  The will find out soon enough that somebody hasssssss to clean the toilet and wash those stinky socks etc.  It's not love they feel for their father, in this case, it's control.  Dad will let us do this and that, therefore dad is easier to get our way with.  What they don't realize is that Dad will also get tired of watching them sleep and sucking back beers.  Or, the place will become a pig stye, in which case, they will have to live with it.

Try to think of this time as you time, Mati.  Time for you to deal with the stuff that is/has been bothering you, time to build a healthier better you.  You will end up a better parent because of it.  Enjoy your peace and the beginning of a new life.

Being emotionally available to your sons is the best thing you can do for them right now.  And if they begin to complain about their circumstances, you can empathize with them, let them express their feelings and concerns, and encourage them to become independant, for their own well being, or help them see their choices.  If they never complain, then I guess they will all be happy together, which is what you want for your sons anyway.  So no matter what....you can think of it as a win-win situation, if you choose to.

n has twisted their reality so that they say that have been traumatised by what I call normal parental behaviour like looking in their rooms once because I was worried about secret drinking and shop lifting.

You know, the first thing I always seem to wonder in situations like this is:

Who is he going to use for a scape goat now?
I mean, now that you're gone, who will he be twisting reality about?
If they were traumatized by your parenting, then they should be perfectly happy and free from now on.  My bet is.....they will come to realize who the actual parent is (and it's not him).   My bet is also....that you will begin to hear stories about stuff they are unhappy about in regard to him.  It's much harder to get up and parent children than it is to just let them do as they like.  But once there is no one there to do the actual parenting, somethings gotta give.  I totally relate Mati.  Very frustrating to live with.  I'm glad you're away from that and can now enjoy your peace.

I know it's hard but try not to worry too much about what your boys think right now.  They are still young.  They will mature and become men.  Be loving and inviting to them.  Let them know you care and miss them.  Tell them what you like about them and the things you are proud of about them/their accomplishments.  Encourage them to talk and try to hear their emotions/the feelings they are expressing.  Respond to those feelings by acknowledging.  eg.  "It seems like you are angry with Dad right now and you have a right to be."  Then, help them to find solutions...."What do you think would help the situation?"

Mati, I'm no expert but I know what it's like living in chaos for years.  You are now in a postition to end the chaos in your own life and to provide a calm, comfy, open non-chaotic place for your boys to relax/visit with you in.   You can be the good guy now!!!

Warning:  Don't bad mouth dad, no matter how tempting!  Don't stoop to his level.

(((((((((Mati)))))))))

GFN

[Anonymous]

Mati:

I have been reading your thread.  I have two brothers who are by products of an N father.  Your two sons will have to live a life they choose.  If it incorporates the brainwashing of your ex N H, then they will bear the brunt of lost realtionships, lies, manipulations as a standard bearer in their life.  Hopefully as you go back to school and pull yourself up, they will see what an adult parent is about and will want to emulate that.  It is a positive that they are going to school as well.  As they go through life and begin to suffer some of the "slings and arrows of misfortune", they will begin to realize that all is not what it seems.

The more educated they become and the more of life experiences they have, will become a mold that will shape them into something more than they are now.  Also for 20 and 18 year old, they are n's by definition of their age.  They just do not have the experience and the seperation necessary to see what you see.  This is not to make excuses for them in any way.  As they move through life, things will evolve in a different manner.  You will be the beneficary as you will be the role model on what to do and how to behave.

I am very sorry for your experiences and your childrens.  When we are caught up in the N experience it is very difficult to seperate fact from fiction with these people.  They are consummate liars.  Some times I think Ns are the "fringe people" of the psychopathic world.  Not quite full blown psychopathes but just on the edges.  

I am very happy you are out of this situation.  You will make it.  It is hard at first and it does take time to put all the pieces of the puzzle back together but you can do it.

Keep on keeping on
Patz