New and down and out

[Mati]

Hi GFN

And you are trying your best to improve your skill which is all any parent can do.

Yes absolutely. That should be our focus rather than looking at what we did wrong. I have learnt these lessons in other areas I my life, but have found it hardest regarding parenthood. Are others like this? I wonder why? But coming here and speaking to you and October have really opened up my mind and I am already feeling less anxious about it and more sure about how to be towards my sons so thanks again.

Is this the first counselling you've received?

It is the first effective counselling or perhaps it is the first time that I can be helped. In the past I was in so much confusion that nothing helped much, or rather just temporarily. Too much going on around for there to be a chance I think.

Do you keep a journal to write your feelings in?

Yes I have started one but do not do it as often as I should. But I feel like I am soon going to be able to manage that. A lot of issues are being resolved at present. One thing I am learning is to recognise danger sings in myself and contacting my support netowrk when n starts to draw me in again. This was learnt at great cost recently when I was roped into something that i was not ready for, doing something for a family member because I was thinking of them rather than myself and my own needs especially physical. I have learnt a great lesson there. It will not happen again, well at least not easily.

.....he is a little snake.

A great big one I think  

 

Every dog has his day, Mati

Yes, I am very much aware more and more, that I have come out of this much better than him as he is left with his malfunction and I am rapidly learning how to function. I will have a life, but he is trapped, I am not going to waste too much time feeling sorry for him as it is his choice. I feel more sorry for me now  

 

It's not love they feel for their father, in this case, it's control. Dad will let us do this and that, therefore dad is easier to get our way with. What they don't realize is that Dad will also get tired of watching them sleep and sucking back beers. Or, the place will become a pig stye, in which case, they will have to live with it.

Unfortunately it is love, because they have not had their relationship with him undermined like they have with me. He twisted things so that they were led to think they feared me, and where there is fear there is no love, I think. He has made them feel responsible for him, and they have taken on the role of parent towards him, agreeing with his twisted world view, that he is a victim. They leap to his defence and even lie for him. They are totally brainwashed, but whether this is really love maybe you are right. I would not mind if my sons were just showing anger towards me. They are mainly indifferent. Perhaps it is my fault and I was a much worse parent than I think. I was not there emotionally for them when things were really bad or when my son from my first marriage commited suicide. I was locked into anger towards n too much to have been the parent I wish I had been, though I always tried to do my best. I am not seeing things too clearly at the moment about this. It might just be the way n manipulated me to feel I was a bad parent.

Yes they have got fed up with a lot of things like junk food and the eldest son has had to take responsibilty of providing healthy food because n can't cook like he can't do anything else that a normal person has to learn.

Try to think of this time as you time, Mati. Time for you to deal with the stuff that is/has been bothering you, time to build a healthier better you. You will end up a better parent because of it. Enjoy your peace and the beginning of a new life.

Yes I am appreciating it more and more that for the first time I have got the space to become whole and deal with all the trauma in my life. The lonliness is hard but i keep thinking that there are worse things in life to cope with. At least I am out of the n chaos.

If they never complain, then I guess they will all be happy together, which is what you want for your sons anyway. So no matter what....you can think of it as a win-win situation, if you choose to.

Well yes up to a point. But their being in a damaging situation living with their personailty disordered father will never be a good thing for them. But if they choose that for now then there is still hope that they will see it one day and escape. Thanks for giving me that hope.

Who is he going to use for a scape goat now?
I mean, now that you're gone, who will he be twisting reality about?

I can see that the eldest son is taking over my role to a certain extent. I could see increasing conflicts developing but then I got locked into a situation of doing something for someone in the family, which has knocked me back a lot. It has been a good learning situation however and I have devoped stronger resolve through it. My relationship with the eldest son has taken a bit of a knock and he is not contacting me much now whereas before he was really opening out and coming to me (e-mail) for support. But I believe that I can get it back to there again, since coming here.

I feel so much clearer now on the way forward with my sons. It is not easy getting it all in balance though so that I do not prevent my progress by thinking of others needs before my own. Your help has been so valuable.

Mati

[Brigid]

Mati,
Now that I know a little more of the situation and the ages of your sons, I have a slightly different response than what I had written originally.

First, let me say how deeply sorry I am that you have had to live through the suicide of your son.  I cannot imagine how profoundly devastating that would be.  I agree with something Dr. Phil once said about how he would feel if he lost one of his boys--"you'd just have to take me to the dump, because I would be worthless after that."  You had every right to fall apart after that experience and its too bad your other sons could not recognize that.

As anyone with teenagers knows, they are very self-centered and think anything or anyone is being unfair if that attention is taken away from them.  Your x is using that to his advantage and making you out to be the one who is not putting them in the center of your universe.  This is wrong, of course, and you would do anything for them, but they can't see that right now.

I agree with what others have said that the best thing you can do for yourself and ultimately for them is to get to a place of peace and tranquility and moving forward with your life.  I would treat their indifference with as much indifference as you can muster and just wait for them to come to you.  You need to approach them from a position of strength rather than weakness, so when they (hopefully) wake up and smell the coffee where there father is concerned, they can turn to the parent who is healthy and capable.  Make sure they know you are there for them if they need you and that you will always love them, but that you expect a certain level of respect from them and unless or until they choose to do that, you will have limited contact.  

Just my 2 cents worth and it may be worthless, but maybe something to think about.  I'm sure your therapist has some suggestions too.

I pray that they will eventually grow weary of parenting their father and start seeing him for the pathetic individual that he is.  Unfortunately, there is nothing you can do to make that happen.

God bless,

Brigid

[Anonymous]

Hello Mati:

You sound like you are getting to a peaceful place.....after all the losses you have suffered.....losing your home, marriage, living with your sons, etc.  You do not sound bitter which is a good thing!  It just sounds like you are moving toward a peaceful place.  I'm glad to hear it (hope I'm not misinterpreting).

Are others like this? I wonder why?

I find it much easier to let go of, learn from, maybe laugh at certain mistakes in life, and move toward improving/preventing a repeat.  In parenting...it isn't that easy.  I feel immense guilt over whatever parenting errors I've made and I think it is because I'm worried about possibly having caused harm/damage to my children (guilt icon please), which doesn't seem obvious but could still be possible.

In order to move past that mind set I have to remind myself that I am not perfect and cannot expect myself to always parent perfectly, always do everything correctly, and never make a mistake.  And for the most part, I know I have been a very good parent and tried and did the best I could.  Still....as you say, it is a very difficult area of my life to learn lessons from because of the possible serious consequences to my children.  I truly wish, in this area, it were possible to be perfect, or at least, close to it.

It is the first effective counselling or perhaps it is the first time that I can be helped.

I'm glad this is helping and you are feeling the effects are good.   You've been through a lot and it's good that you have someone you feel comfortable speaking with and working on difficulties with.  Good for you!

One thing I am learning is to recognise danger sings in myself and contacting my support netowrk when n starts to draw me in again.

That's a big step ahead because if you can do this, you will prevent a downward spiral and save yourself a lot of agrivation.  Another good thing!!

I have come out of this much better than him as he is left with his malfunction and I am rapidly learning how to function.

That's great for you Mati!!  Keep going and soon you will feel like a new person!  I'm so glad you this is happening for you!

They are totally brainwashed, but whether this is really love maybe you are right.

I don't think it's love.   He's just managed to influence them and they believe his bs right now.  This won't last forever.  Eventually, they will see the light.

Perhaps it is my fault and I was a much worse parent than I think. I was not there emotionally for them when things were really bad or when my son from my first marriage commited suicide.

Oh Mati, I'm so sorry that this happened.  How horrific!  Please don't blame yourself.  You are only human.  How old was your son when he did this? (if you don't want to talk about it....no worries.  I will understand).

It might just be the way n manipulated me to feel I was a bad parent.

Do you think he may have "brainwashed" you too, some?

Yes they have got fed up with a lot of things like junk food and the eldest son has had to take responsibilty of providing healthy food because n can't cook like he can't do anything else that a normal person has to learn.

I suppose it won't hurt them to take on this responsibility.  Maybe it will help them see their father in a clearer light?  They certainly won't die from learning how to cook.

The lonliness is hard but i keep thinking that there are worse things in life to cope with. At least I am out of the n chaos.

Well you can find things to do to help yourself combat feeling so alone and maybe even begin to enjoy the peace, right?   Do you have any hobbies?  Any pets?  Do you think you might join a group or a club, take a class or be able to find some new social outlets?  Something to look forward to?
I joined a single parent group with the distinct goal of making a few friends who were single parents like me, when I was a single parent.  I did just that and it ended up being something really worthwhile and fun.    Maybe something like that would help you?

But their being in a damaging situation living with their personailty disordered father will never be a good thing for them. But if they choose that for now then there is still hope that they will see it one day and escape. Thanks for giving me that hope.

They are adults so you're right....they are making a choice and it isn't their only choice.  They may choose otherwise in the future.  That is all anyone can hope for and it might happen sooner than expected.  Who knows?

I can see that the eldest son is taking over my role to a certain extent..... My relationship with the eldest son has taken a bit of a knock and he is not contacting me much now...

That's hard to watch.   Maybe it will open his eyes to some of what you have gone through and end up bringing you both closer together?

I feel so much clearer now on the way forward with my sons...

Glad to hear it!  Hopefully, you can enjoy this time of peace/no chaos in your home and work on helping yourself through counselling and starting a new life, and your sons will see you happier/emotionally stable/healthier etc.  This may draw them to you (cause them to want to spend more time with their stable mom...than their disfunctional dad).  

GFN

[justme]

yep methinks them narcissists
have one of the more powerful or most powerful
of those time delayed implants into another
that keep releasing stuff destructive to one's self esteem...

...more later perhaps ....

i didnt read all the comments responses
so perhaps someone else treated aspects of the above
to some degree
or oh my fully  gasp

now i dont want to be too charming here
as it might reveal a cloaked narcissist  

[Mati]

Hi Brigid

First, let me say how deeply sorry I am that you have had to live through the suicide of your son. I cannot imagine how profoundly devastating that would be

Yes, it is the ultimately devastating experience as a parent. You go over every little thing you ever said/did to them through their lives and never come to terms with it. My sons did not get to know him too well as he had gone away and not contacted me for years. I do not hold n innocent regarding his inability to contain the pain in his life. He had been 12 when I married n but left to live with his own father a year later. I have discovered only recently what really went on between n and my children when I was not there. I did not feel supported by n and sons after son 1 died. They had been spoiled by n.  

I would treat their indifference with as much indifference as you can muster and just wait for them to come to you

A few people have told me this too.  

 

You need to approach them from a position of strength rather than weakness,

Yes I do feel pathetic sometimes waiting for a few crumbs of attention and walking on eggshells so I do not upset them. It can't be good for them. I have felt fearful about being left on my own but I have nearly overcome that fear now. Some of it is shame ie I am afraid of what others will think of me when they know my sons have rejected me. It goes back to molestation from my childhood. I am building up a good self esteem now though and increasingly reject the idea of anyone abusing me. Yes you are right in that I have a right to expect respect when I am respecting them. It's just that I thought that I could not bear the thought of losing three sons. But I have more hope now that if I do it could just be temporary. Maybe it will be necessary for that to happen before they will see the light. Thanks Brigid. God bless you too.

Hi again GFN

Yes I am getting to a  peaceful place after losing everything in my life and I am not bitter because of my faith I think. I can hold onto God's promises like 'all things work for the good of those who are in Christ' because it worked like that in the past. I must admit that it is a struggle to hold on and sometimes I can't.

I truly wish, in this area, it were possible to be perfect, or at least, close to it.

I think it is because we love our children so much that we cannot bear the thought of harm coming to them especially from ourselves but all parents make mistakes. I read once that there was a man whose parents were 'perfect' and his father was so wonderful that he spent his life feeling a failure because he could not live up to him. You cant win!!  

You are only human. How old was your son when he did this? (if you don't want to talk about it....no worries. I will understand).

He was 31 and was found in a hotel room after taking an overdose of painkillers. He was a sufferer of schizophrenia and had disappeared for a while. The shock of hearing it from a policeman was devastating. Only my faith in God got me through, during those nights when I would wake up
and the shock of remembering would hit me again and I would cry out to God for help and then find myself able to get back to sleep.

Do you think he may have "brainwashed" you too, some?

Oh yes. I was sucked into his reality that he was a victim. After I left, reality zoomed back and I was left stunned at what I had accepted. But I had spent 22 years trying to reconcile the inconsistencies with oh so many looong conversations and arguments.  

Do you have any hobbies? Any pets? Do you think you might join a group or a club, take a class or be able to find some new social outlets? Something to look forward to?

Yes I have joined a support group for the divorced and am teaching them about personality disorders   and have joined a midweek Bible study group. Holidays are difficult though when they are not on. I know things will get better as I make friends in the future. I also go to one night class a week and they are a good bunch there. I am quite busy really.
Thanks again GFN for taking so much time to reply to me and advise.

[Anonymous]

Dear Mati:

I can hold onto God's promises like 'all things work for the good of those who are in Christ' because it worked like that in the past. I must admit that it is a struggle to hold on and sometimes I can't.

To borrow wise words:  "There is no pit deep enough that He is not there with you".

He was 31 and was found in a hotel room after taking an overdose of painkillers. He was a sufferer of schizophrenia and had disappeared for a while. The shock of hearing it from a policeman was devastating.

Mati, this was not your fault.  Your son had a disorder in his mind that you could do nothing about.((((((Mati)))))).  I'm so sorry for your loss.  

Only my faith in God got me through, during those nights when I would wake up and the shock of remembering would hit me again and I would cry out to God for help and then find myself able to get back to sleep.

So sorry for that awful grief, Mati.  I know what it's like to lose a child and it never heals.   I think you just learn to live with/ tolerate it.

But I had spent 22 years trying to reconcile the inconsistencies with oh so many looong conversations and arguments.

Frustrating waste of time.  But you've withstood it all, Mati and you're holding out for better days ahead!!

Sounds like you're keeping yourself busy and taking some really postive steps toward building a better life.  My prayer for you that you meet some nice friends to socialize with and laugh some and have some fun.

Thanks again GFN for taking so much time to reply to me and advise.

My pleasure.  And thankyou for sharing.  Glad you are here Mati.

GFN

[Mati]

Hi GFN

"There is no pit deep enough that He is not there with you".

Amen!

I'm so sorry for your loss.

Thanks, GFN. It is good for me to be able to speak about it openly on here.  

 

I know what it's like to lose a child and it never heals

So sorry to hear this. Do you mind speaking about it?

Glad you are here Mati.

Thankyou GFN    It is a very special place. I have been on many abuse boards but this is the first time that I have felt listened to and cared about in the same way. It helps to hear that others have coped with great losses too.

As i said on the Andrea thread, I have been reading "Why Does He Do That?" by Lundy Bancroft and I have learnt quite a bit about abusers that I did not  know and it has opened up to me the reason for behaviour that I could not understand. My 22 year old son, who is like me in a lot of ways, was the baby out of my four, whom I bonded with the most. He would not even go to anyone when he was tiny but me. And he did not like his father to come near me. Whether this was some child intuition I do not know, but for a long time, his father blatently favoured his younger brother. He would come to me often really upset about his fathers behaviour in this favouritism, as his dad always backed up the other in disputes and was so unfair it was un believable. I spent many hours trying to get him to see, and to explain how much it was harming our son, but he denied it all of the time.

I should have seen then that something was seriously wrong with him but I did not, though of course I knew that he had problems but he had me believing that he could not help them and his intention was good and that he was a good father and husband because he devoted his time to us.

Then the other brother started to treat him badly, never saying sorry and never helping him when he needed it. What was going on, I understand now after reading this book, was that his father knew that he would defend me and had a strong bond with me, and so set about breaking it by his aggression towards him whenever he agreed with me, but being extra nice towards him at other times. And setting his brother against him. Later, he did a turnabout and stopped the favouritism, but at the time he chose and not when I was begging him to stop. The result was I lost my son to him, and he never backed me up again even when his father was saying something outragious. It has been an eye opener to see this and see the deliberateness of his behaviour rather than the so called mental health problems and communication problems he pleads as an excuse.

Just wondering, but after describing his details at length here, do others think that I am describing narcissistic behaviour or perhaps psychopathy? I often wonder.

((((GFN))))

Mati

[Anonymous]

Hi Mati:

So sorry to hear this. Do you mind speaking about it?

I guess not.  My child was born with a number of health problems and lived for a few months.  I never held her because she was hooked up to a lot of apparatus and I was not allowed (too dangerous for her).  Her funeral was Christmas Eve.   I know it's got to be worse when you have known a child for a number of years, as in your case, but the bottom line is...the death of a child is tragic and hard to recover from.  No matter the circumstances.

...his father blatently favoured his younger brother.

This is very hurtful and damaging.  I've seen it in my x's family and the results are awful.   I will never understand how any parent can openly show favoritism or think that it is ok, in any way.  I think this is a strong N trait....shows the parent could care less about how the other child/children feel or the harm being caused to them.  No empathy for sure.

It has been an eye opener to see this and see the deliberateness of his behaviour rather than the so called mental health problems and communication problems he pleads as an excuse.

Conniving/driving wedges between people/deliberately trying to turn one against another.....these are all N behaviours....I think.

Thanks for the hug Mati.   I hope things go a lot better for you from now on.

GFN

[Mati]

Hi GFN

I feel ssooo much stronger today than I have felt for a while. Thanks to you all on here.

...the death of a child is tragic and hard to recover from. No matter the circumstances.

I am so sorry that you lost your baby. Yes you are right and every child that is lost is a tragedy and each in different ways. With your daughter I suppose that it must have hurt so bad that you never got to know her. I do not think that there is a scale. To lose a baby though must have been so terrible. I always felt so fiercely protective and could not let them out of my sight when young.

these are all N behaviours....I think

Thanks. Yes I have examined the scale and he passed on every point, but I would have thought that an n would not be planning things out so coldly, rather acting out of need. I don't know. This one drove me mad for a while but I gave up wondering. I do know that he is dangerous and highly manipulative. I had to speak to him today on the phone, and I was so in control of myself, like never before and feel so detached now. I know I have to forgive him and I am working on that one  

Mati

[Anonymous]

Hiya Mati:

I suppose that it must have hurt so bad that you never got to know her.

Yes, very much so.  I think of her a lot.  Wonder what she might be like now...at this age...at that age....try to picture her.  That must sound weird but it's what I do sometimes.  And I miss her very much at Christmas.  It seems so unfair that she never had a chance to live and play and grow and learn...and be alive.  Her short little life was nothing but suffering.  And her father wouldn't go near her because he was afraid to attach himself to her and then she would die.  Poor him eh?  It's amazing how even a tiny baby knows their mother.  I think it might be smell??  That must sound strange too but it just makes sense.  She always responded to me....tried to make little noises.....turned her head toward me....fluttered her eyes and seems to really perk up (vital signs and all) when I was there.  I feel guilty because I had to travel 50 miles to the hospital and had little money for even the gas then, so I couldn't visit every day.  I remember they charged $10.00 just to park the car!!!

I always felt so fiercely protective and could not let them out of my sight when young.

I think the experience made me severely paranoid and overprotective of my next child for some time.  Gradually....I talked myself out of this and tried to be reasonable.  It was hard though.  I was so afraid my next daughter would die too.  Stupid thoughts that take over eh?  It's was real work to reign them in and corral them!!!

...but I would have thought that an n would not be planning things out so coldly,

Oh I bet there are lot's of people here who can attest that that cold planning thingy is a real N behaviour, including me.

I do know that he is dangerous and highly manipulative. I had to speak to him today on the phone, and I was so in control of myself, like never before and feel so detached now.

Good for you Mati!  

I know I have to forgive him and I am working on that one  

You'll be able to when you are ready.  It's darn hard when you must continue to have contact with him....if he is still causing drama/chaos...or if he's in your face in any way.  A little at a time...I guess.

Hope you have a lovely week end Mati!   Keep posting.

GFN

[astrofemme]

Here's what I have decided about Mother's Day.  Since she gets a gift for being my mother, I get an even better gift on Mother's Day for being the daughter who had to mother HER.  From here on out, I will always give myself a better gift on Mother's Day.  So the gift I ordered for her....well, I ordered the upgrade version for myself.  Ha!

New way to pamper myself--new tradition.

[astrofemme]

OOPS!  Meant to put that response on the Mother's Day response.

[Mati]

Hi astofemme

No, it's me on the wrong thread! Sorry I seem to have highjacked this one and you had to go and start another.  

Hi GFN

try to picture her. That must sound weird but it's what I do sometimes.

No that does not sound weird to me, just natural.

It seems so unfair that she never had a chance to live and play and grow and learn...and be alive

Yes, she had her life cut off cruelly short. I think that all bereaved parents feel this one. With my son it was that he did not get the chance of having a child of his own. The younger they are though, the greater this pain I would imagine.

Her short little life was nothing but suffering

As far as pain is concerned, I have come to the belief that God grants little ones relief from this when it reaches a certain level and have since heard that research has found that the brain of a young child will split off from pain.

And her father wouldn't go near her because he was afraid to attach himself to her and then she would die.

That must have been hard for you, not feeling you were sharing it together.

It's amazing how even a tiny baby knows their mother.

This blew me out with one of mine, as he stopped crying as soon as they handed him to me and he stopped crying immediately and looked deep in my eyes. He yelled his head off if anyone tried to take him again. It freaked the nurses out! It was during that pregnancy (out of four) that I had bonded already with him and had no negative feelings. Now his father has took him away    

seems to really perk up (vital signs and all) when I was there

That is so lovely and makes me want to cry. In her short life, she made a connection and knew she was loved. That's the most important thing a parent can do and you did it, despite terrible circumstances and doing it on your own.

I feel guilty because I had to travel 50 miles to the hospital

It was not your fault that the stupid authorities did not provide somewhere near for sick newborns. That is so atrocious to take her away so far. I just feel so angry about that. Mothers of newborns are in a vulnerable state and need looking after and protecting, and given optimum oportunites to be with their babies. This is not your fault. And you had to drive yourself there as well    GFN, think of another mother having to cope with all of this. Do you think she should feel guilty? You already had your partner passing the death sentence by expecting it rather than hope. (People must cope with these situations in their own way, but that made it harder on you) You are in my prayers. Have a good weekend too. ((((GFN))))

Mati

[Anonymous]

Thankyou Mati, for the hug and for all you have written.

I have to run now but I will reread and post back when I can.  Probably Monday some time.

Sorry, Astrofemme.   For hijacking this thread.  

How are you doing?

((((((all)))))

GFN

[OR]

GFN,Mati,

Mati, I'm just reading throught this thread, I wanted to let you know I'm in the middle of a divorce after 26 yrs myself. I have moved far away with our 12yr old and so busy with paper work I have not felt the total affects yet. It has only been 8weeks for me.

 

They think that they are stopping him from commiting suicide. That's where he had me for a long time

I just was wondering about this, there was a time when my N-H would make believe he was so depressed he might want to commit suicide.
For this reason I pushed the doctors to let me have a report to view and be assured he would not commit suicide. (This was before the laws were in place).

Some here may already know I have a physological evaluation of my H telling he is so self-absorbed being an N he is not suicidal. I used to be so fearful when he would play-up how depressed he was.
He is an N, he would never consider suicide.

He wants everyone to think he would because it pushes he's N-supply to a whole other level. According to this evaluation THEY believe the signs for suicide are not there. Im so glad I have this report to help me see his games of deception; I read the report and wish I understood it better.
When I first read it, found he would not likely hurt himself, I was ok with that, then put it away. I later read it again because things were getting worse with him. He is almost 50,  I understand with age he will get more difficult and many health problems too.

I only learned about the N this December and found this web site to show how if affects people in daily life. The word it self means little, it is the horror and distruction to peoples lifes that need to be in the dictonary.

I will keep you and your family in my prayers     OR