respect

[write]

I hate to put this here, amongst so many people who are hurting, but it has to be said:

EVERYONE deserves respect and fair treatment.

The narcissist, the abuser, the idiot, even ( G_d help us ) the child molestor....

Every single time we let our frustration or hatred or being judgemental get the better of us- we're diminuished.

We need to find a way of collectively rising above all this crap which came our way, and saying- STOP- enough. No one should be ill-treated ever again if I have anything to do with it....

[bunny]

Maybe you're saying don't impulsively lash out, but try to take the high road? Because there is no way I'm going to respect a child abuser or molester.

bunny

[jophil]

WRITE says that we should treat everyone with respect -even those who abuse us . And the 'judgemental' word popped up in her post too .
If you read Nathaniel Brandon ( The art of living consciously)- he points out that we NEED to make distinctions and NOT be inclusive to the extent that we accept the unacceptable. I agree. In order to stop abuse we need to name it, face it and point the finger of condemnation at it. And if that entails hating it and getting really angry then that is what we must do until it stops and we are healed.
Is that what you mean by being "judgemental" ?...

[jophil]

Dear WRITE -I refer you to LUKE 17: 3,4 where Jesus is counseling LUKE on the art of forgiveness. Jesus instructs LUKE to REBUKE the wrongdoer and then he further instructs LUKE to forgive the wrongdoer IF he repents.
So Jesus if making forgiveness conditional upon the wrongdoer taking responsibility for his 'sin' and being willing to make amends  ...Hmmmmm . Most Christians miss this point.

[Cripes]

Bunny,   me either. Glad to hear someone else out there thinks the same way.

Jophil, just to be a pedantic, if you're going to preach to us about St Luke I want to point out that it is widely agreed amongst historians and theologians that St Luke never actually met or knew Christ personally, before the crucifixion anyway, in the flesh (know what I mean?) , but was converted later. Maybe/probably by St Paul.

St. Luke was a proselyte to the Christian religion, but whether from Paganism or rather from Judaism is uncertain; for many Jews were settled in Antioch, but chiefly such as were called Hellenists, who read the Bible in the Greek translation of the Septuagint. St. Jerome observes from his writings that he was more skilled in Greek than in Hebrew, and that therefore he not only always makes use of the Septuagint translation, as the other authors of the New Testament who wrote in Greek do, but he refrains sometimes from translating words when the propriety of the Greek tongue would not bear it. Some think he was converted to the faith by St. Paul at Antioch; others judge this improbable, because that apostle nowhere calls him his son, as he frequently does his converts.  Though some evangelist says he wrote his gospel from the relations of those "who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word."[4] Nevertheless, from these words many conclude that he became a Christian at Antioch only after Christ's ascension. Tertullian positively affirms that he never was a disciple of Christ whilst he lived on earth.[5] No sooner was he enlightened by the Holy Ghost and initiated in the school of Christ but he set himself heartily to learn the spirit of his faith and to practice its lessons. For this purpose he studied perfectly to die to himself, and, as the church says of him, "He always carried about in his body the mortification of the cross for the honour of the divine name." He was already a great proficient in the habits of a perfect mastery of himself, and of all virtues, when he became St. Paul's companion in his travels and fellow-labourer in the ministry of the gospel. The first time that in his history of the missions of St. Paul[6] he speaks in his own name in the first person is when that apostle sailed from Troas into Macedon in the year 51, soon after St. Barnabas had left him, and St. Irenaeus begins from that time the voyages which St. Luke made with St. Paul.[7] Before this he had doubtless been for some time an assiduous disciple of that great apostle; but from the time he seems never to have left him unless by his order upon commissions for the service of the churches he had planted. It was the height of his ambition to share with that great apostle all his toils, fatigues, dangers, and sufferings. In his company he made some stay at Philippi in Macedon; then he travelled with him through all the cities of Greece, where the harvest every day grew upon their hands. St. Paul mentions him more than once as the companion of his travels, he calls him "Luke the beloved physician,"[8] his "fellow labourer."[9] Interpreters usually take Lucius, whom St. Paul calls his kinsman[10], to be St. Luke, as the same apostle sometimes gives a Latin termination to Silas, calling him Sylvanus. Many with Origen, Eusebius, and St. Jerome say that when St. Paul speaks of his own gospel[11] he means that of St. Luke, though the passage may be understood simply of the gospel which St. Paul preached. He wrote this epistle in the year 57, four years before his first arrival at Rome.

If this is going to become a Christina instruction site, let's stay as close the known/agreed facts as possible. Otherwise it's a case of the blind leading the blind.

Personally, I think it's best to stay on the topic of N'ism AND HOW TO DEAL WITH IT.

Cripes.

[jophil]

Hello Cripes , I read most of your post.What did all that history have to do with the point in discussion?.
 I reserve the right to put my point of view forward in a way that best expresses my perspective -or maybe you would prefer that I check with you first in future. My point about Luke stands.

[Anonymous]

Hi Jophil,

Your point about Luke was based on your own personal presumption and assumption, whilst being passed off to us as the 'gospel'. Is 'counselling' usually spelled with 2 ll's? You also seem extremely hostile and agro for some reason . Especially when someone else presents their own point of view which opposes yours .

Cripes.

[October]

I hate to put this here, amongst so many people who are hurting, but it has to be said:

EVERYONE deserves respect and fair treatment.

The narcissist, the abuser, the idiot, even ( G_d help us ) the child molestor....

Every single time we let our frustration or hatred or being judgemental get the better of us- we're diminuished.

We need to find a way of collectively rising above all this crap which came our way, and saying- STOP- enough. No one should be ill-treated ever again if I have anything to do with it....

You are right.  Child abusers deserve respect.  They deserve respect from the police officers as they are arrested, and from the judge and jury as they are convicted, and from the prison warder as he locks the door on them for life.  

They do not deserve to be strung up from lamp posts, because that would make us as evil and twisted as they are, tempting though the thought may be to any right thinking person.  So we rise above that, and throw the law books at them instead, whenever possible.  

As for anger, too right they get anger.  If we are not rightly angry about adults mistreating and abusing innocent children, then what kind of people are we?

However, I am intrigued as to why you felt you had to put here that everyone deserves respect, particularly as you had the expectation of hurting people in the process (which fortunately I think has not happened).    

I do not know a more respectful, accepting place than this one.  Trolls excepted, of course.  They can just go back to the bridge from whence they crawled, imo.

[October]

Bunny,   me either. Glad to hear someone else out there thinks the same way.

Jophil, just to be a pedantic, if you're going to preach to us about St Luke I want to point out that it is widely agreed amongst historians and theologians that St Luke never actually met or knew Christ personally, before the crucifixion anyway, in the flesh (know what I mean?) , but was converted later. Maybe/probably by St Paul.

Cripes.

Ooooh goody.  I love playing Pedants' Revolt; one of my favourites.      

If you are going to be pedantic, there is no evidence that Luke actually wrote/dictated/whatever the Gospel of Luke.  It is ascribed to Luke by tradition, but none of the Gospels were signed by their authors.  

I am not sure why that invalidates someone quoting from the Gospel of St Luke, however.  Perhaps I am not pedantic enough to understand.  

[October]

Most Christians miss this point.

Candidate for 'sweeping generalisation of the week' award.  

[jophil]

To Cripes , you have your opinions and I have mine. Apparently you are not a fan of my forthright approach and your way of dealing with it is to start to get personal -hence your comment about my being 'agro' and your cheap shot about spelling. It is not compulsory to reply to any of my posts,so if you do respond to me you signal your willingness to engage.
Your choice --

[Anonymous]

I hate to put this here, amongst so many people who are hurting, but it has to be said:

EVERYONE deserves respect and fair treatment.

The narcissist, the abuser, the idiot, even ( G_d help us ) the child molestor....

Every single time we let our frustration or hatred or being judgemental get the better of us- we're diminuished.

We need to find a way of collectively rising above all this crap which came our way, and saying- STOP- enough. No one should be ill-treated ever again if I have anything to do with it....

So you are saying child abusers deserve respect, you are mad, when i was aged 3/5 did the man who put his pen.s in my mouth, and different objects, including trying the pen.s in my front and back passage, respect me, i think not, and that goes for every single child abuser going, not one deserves any respect or fair treatment in any shape form or fashion, and that goes for all the wicked bastar.s that are walking around, obviously you have never been sexually abused, or you would never come out with such a statement!

Denise

[Portia]

Write I agree with you. I’ll repeat your post to remind me of your words as I reply:

I hate to put this here, amongst so many people who are hurting, but it has to be said:

You can say what you think. Freedom of speech is important. It's the most important thing maybe?

EVERYONE deserves respect and fair treatment.

The narcissist, the abuser, the idiot, even ( G_d help us ) the child molestor....

I’d like to define ‘respect’. Perhaps ‘be given consideration as a human’? (What it doesn’t mean in this case, IMO, is to ‘look up to’ which the word can sometimes be confused with.)

So when we respect someone, we consider them as a human being, rather than as a ‘thing’ or an object, or inferior to us, yes?

‘Fair treatment’ I agree with as an idea. But defining what fair treatment is – that’s tricky I think.

Every single time we let our frustration or hatred or being judgemental get the better of us- we're diminuished.

When we view someone else as less than human? When we allow our minds to be clouded by our experiences, our emotions…but who then should pass judgement and how? I wish there was a way for our legal systems to be non-confrontational, but I don’t know what alternatives there are and how they would work.

We need to find a way of collectively rising above all this crap which came our way, and saying- STOP- enough. No one should be ill-treated ever again if I have anything to do with it....

Controlled reproduction has been playing around my head but we automatically find the idea repellent it seems. Of course we’d only need controlled reproduction for – er – one generation? – not sure. I think I think about this topic because of my own experiences though. If I was a product of a loving family, would I think differently?


‘The Sun’ tabloid sensationalist piece of rubbish that poses as a newspaper printed the photo of Saddam in his underwear last week: front page, the photo filled the page. I saw it in a shop. I felt sick. That was so wrong, it was disgusting.

[anotherguest]

‘The Sun’ tabloid sensationalist piece of rubbish that poses as a newspaper printed the photo of Saddam in his underwear last week: front page, the photo filled the page. I saw it in a shop. I felt sick. That was so wrong, it was disgusting.

Saddam in his undies.  Hmmm....  I wonder how all his tens of thousands of victims feel about those pics... rather, the ones that are still alive.

[Cripes]

To Cripes , you have your opinions and I have mine. Apparently you are not a fan of my forthright approach and your way of dealing with it is to start to get personal -hence your comment about my being 'agro' and your cheap shot about spelling. It is not compulsory to reply to any of my posts,so if you do respond to me you signal your willingness to engage.
Your choice --

Jophil,

Thankyou for 'allowing' me to respond.  

'Forthright'? hmmm? 'Fan' hmmm? No comment a.t.s.

'Engage' hmmm   again. Shall it be pistols at 10 steps then Jophil?    Do you love a drama that much? Silly talk really.

I'm forthright too Jophil, and so speaking to you 'forthrightly' I have a question for you? Why are you, or why do you seem so agro here? Those were my words in my previous post. And that is me being forthright on how you 'seemed' to me when I read your posts.

I am very happy to discuss with you how you seem to me. But not to engage. That's just silly.

So yes Jophil, to me you seem very touchy, and also quite agro. Is that okay for me to say that here?

I'm also very aware that there may be very good reasons why you come across that way and 'seem' like that.

Add to that, that you 'seem' so easy and willing to 'engage' with a person whose motives you don't fully understand?

I wonder if you've considered that perhaps, umm, is it possible, that I'm a genuine party?

Perhaps you just don't 'get that', yet, here on this forum.  You 'seem' (you read) to me as a very adversarial person.

I'm interested to understand why that is.

Also, from where I sit Jophil, you don't have a monoploly in the 'being abused by N's' dept. From my reading and my personal experience here, everyone here has had their fair share of that. Isn't that why we're here afterall ? I always think that it's always worth keeping that in mind when reading and posting here.

Cripes