A string of unfulfilling relationships...

[spyralle]

Hi Selkie,

Ok let me tell you what I meant by control (I did get a bit carried away didn't I,  I wanted to punch him!!!!!).  I guess if somebody keeps you believing that you are not quite good enough, not really up to standard a little bit faulty, and you believe them instead of walking away, then there is the control.  If you don't feel you meet his requirements then people like you and me will try harder to do so.  hence the high heels etc...  if we try harder then, as Plucky quite rightly says he can do or be what he likes because you are too busy trying to be what he likes to notice.  If he starts critisising you and you buy into that then he knows that he can always be on top of the situation.  After all if you are prepared to change yourself for him then he must be very powerful indeed.  I think that that is like a drug to people like him because inside they are inadequate little men (or women).

In my case I always judge myself by the person I am with.  If he is happy I am happy.  If he is miserable or angry it must be me.  If he does not like something about me I had better change it or he may leave.  It sounds like we are very similar.  When you said that if they loved you you would stay whatever it took you were spot on.  Thing about me though is I have tried sometimes to go out with guys who are nice, but then I end up driving them away.  My therapist told me that this was because, as Groucho Marx said....."I would not want to be part of any club that wanted me as it's member"... 

Spyralle xxxxxx

[Chicken]

Hi Spyralle,
how are you doing today?  I do indeed think we are very similiar in ways... I think we both lack self esteem MAJORLY

I had my first session with my therapist today!  I think I am definately going to stick with it, and I sense it will be beneficial.  I think I am ready for it for the first time in my life. 

My only problem is that I really want to remember what was said and the points and discoveries we made during the session, but I am finding real difficulty remembering them    ...it's like trying to remember a dream
Do you think I should jot down some stuff next week or would that break the flow of things?  I feel therapy can only work if you can take something home to chew on...

She puts the bad relationship thing down to self esteem (among other things) I told her that I didn't think I lacked self esteem/self worth as I know I deserve better etc, well the thing i proceeded to say after that totally contradicted this...  and I cannot remember what I said!!!  but it revealed a deep deep lack of self esteem and I didn't even realise it until she pointed it out!  It blew me away...  I'm gutted I can't remember.  Therapy is so abstract. 

We talked a little about transference.  I told her it would never happen between us, i think she is hoping it will, but I know I won't put any of my stuff on her.   I only put my stuff on men!  I hope I am proved wrong.  She said if I ever do, that we will work through it...

[spyralle]

Hi Selkie,

I'm glad you held out and saw your therapist today.  What an achievement after the other night!  I have the same problem in therapy.  Sometimes I want to think about it later and when I try it seems to have vanished into the ether.  i wouldn't take notes because you would be so busy on that that the focus would change.  Maybe you could do it as soon as you have left if you don't want to forget.  Maybe it isn't about taking it home Selkie.  Maybe it is about taking it in.  Sometimes the interaction in therapy is not all on a conscious level.  What orientation is your therapist?  it's funny isn't it when you know inside that the treatment of you is not right and that you deserve better, but then you carry on regardless.  Subconscious behaviour versus conscious thinking I guess....

As for the transference that you seem determined not to have with her.  I wonder if that is part of the transference (Just a thought!)..

Oh God I'm getting a bit too technical for myself now... 

As for me....  have you watched any episodes of Coronation Street lately.  i was watching it the other night and there was a bit that really triggered something for me.  Shelley had been sitting on the stairs listening to Charlie seducing another woman in the back room.  To cut a long story short and apologies to everyone from USA, he very cleverly blamed her and gave himself a reason to leave.  there she was sitting on the bed in her pyjamas pleading with him and he just rolled over and turned away.  The day after my ex had called me a sad f**k in front of all my friends, I was in the exact same scenario.  Sitting on the bed in my PJ's begging him and apologising.....  whilst he just blamed me and turned away....

Spyrale xxxxxx

[longtire]

I had my first session with my therapist today!  I think I am definately going to stick with it, and I sense it will be beneficial.  I think I am ready for it for the first time in my life. 

My only problem is that I really want to remember what was said and the points and discoveries we made during the session, but I am finding real difficulty remembering them    ...it's like trying to remember a dream
Do you think I should jot down some stuff next week or would that break the flow of things?  I feel therapy can only work if you can take something home to chew on...

She puts the bad relationship thing down to self esteem (among other things) I told her that I didn't think I lacked self esteem/self worth as I know I deserve better etc, well the thing i proceeded to say after that totally contradicted this...  and I cannot remember what I said!!!  but it revealed a deep deep lack of self esteem and I didn't even realise it until she pointed it out!  It blew me away...  I'm gutted I can't remember.  Therapy is so abstract. 

We talked a little about transference.  I told her it would never happen between us, i think she is hoping it will, but I know I won't put any of my stuff on her.   I only put my stuff on men!  I hope I am proved wrong.  She said if I ever do, that we will work through it...

Selkie, I had the same difficulty when I started therapy, too.  I could not remember what I discussed or throught about as soon as the session was over.  I think that is actually pretty common.  If your T is decent they should be able help to "hold on" to what goes on in the session for you.  That is one part of their purpose.  Also, one of the things that I needed a lot of practice to learn was "finding my way back" to important issues.  I often felt like I lost them during that period of time.  But, if it was important to me it would come up again at some point.

Hang in there, things will get better even if you can't see it right now.  If you can remember, you should tell your T about feeling this way in your next session.  This is good information for them to know what is going on for you.

[Chicken]

Hi Spyralle

What orientation is your therapist? 

She is a pyschodynamic and psychoanalysis therapist.

I got her from the BACP website.

it's funny isn't it when you know inside that the treatment of you is not right and that you deserve better, but then you carry on regardless.  Subconscious behaviour versus conscious thinking I guess....

This is something that absolutely fascinates me!  ...and realising this is what finally brought me to see the therapist.  I am conscious in all my dealings with people but as soon as I get myself into a romantic relationship with a man, I move into my subconscious mind.  This is one of the reasons why I am always in a state of confusion in a relationship and I don't always know what is reality and what is in my mind! 
The conscious part of me stands aside and looks on in horror! ha ha!

It is interesting as I have never LIKED the men I have been with.  I loved them (at least I thought I did) but they were all horrible people.  My recent ex, when I met him, I thought he was an arrogant a**hole and everyone around me agreed.  He continued to be throughout the relationship too.  But I adored him.  All the while my conscious mind knew and warned me but was pushed aside, and the subconscious mind took over: "Let me have him!  I have unfinished business with him!" *in goes the a**hole and the door slams*

I guess your conscious mind is attached to your soul, and your subconscious is your old self (child) the past with all your unhealed wounds and warts and slime and goo...

I want to have a conscious relationship.  Then at least if they are unsuitable men, I can walk away happily, rather than shifting into the subconscious and allowing them in.  This is my goal.  I will achieve it.  Awareness is the first step.

As for the transference that you seem determined not to have with her.  I wonder if that is part of the transference (Just a thought!)......

Hmmm...  It crossed my mind.  But then... 
Y'see, let me explain.  I said to my therapist that there is no way I would ever ever ever experience transference with her. 
The reason is that I would never reach such an intimate place with her, I would never and could never get to the place where I would depend on her completely.  There is no way she could ever let me down no matter what she said or did, because she doesn't have any power over me.  I just don't experience that need with anyone other than men...  the reason being, is that I could only ever have a healthy relationship with her. 
I trust her completely, have no problem being open with her, and I like her.  I feel the exact same way with my many friends whom are amazing and supportive.  I don't depend on them like I depend on a man.  It's a different kettle of fish.  I don't think any of my friends could hurt me either.  I know that I am a nice person when I am with them, I treat them with respect and I am confident that I am a very good friend.  I know for a fact that I would never give them any reason to be nasty to me, so if they were, I would have no qualms or conflict about saying goodbye.
In other words, I am conscious in my dealings with her.  She doesn't represent anyone (other than my therapist) to me.  She is my therapist and I would never put a mask on her and pretend she was someone else. 

I think I am going to have to explore this one with her next week, because reading back over what I wrote, there is a lot going on!!!! I am suddenly filled with fear.

I'm not sure I'm liking this whole therapy thing.  It's isolating me and I am afraid I am going to get depressed.

Spyralle, The coronation street thing is very sad!  Do you utilise this time to your best advantage?  Are you writing down all the bad things that you remember about him?  You need to start realising and drumming it in to your head what a horrible person he is.  Constantly be on the search for the horrible things he has done or said to you and keep making notes.  This really works for me.  There will be a time when you will forget the horrible things, and you may need another Pr**k to come and show you what they are again and you don't want to go down that road!  Stop looking at him with rose tinted glasses and you won't feel the need to call him.  Take off those glasses and start concentrating on you and how he hurt you.  You have a lot of mental energy now for this, use it to your advantage.  This is the only thing that makes me not want to call my ex.  Educate yourself about him, bring yourself back to your conscious mind.

Hi Longtire  :  thanks for that.  I will mention it to her.  I think at the moment there is soooooooooo much stuff that needs sorting that there is bound to be a bit of mess.  It's like a big huge messy office that has been caught up in a tornado.  -I just don't know where to start in the cleanup!  no wonder I am forgetting where I put things.   Now where did I put that...

Sorry for the epic post, had no idea it was going to turn out like this! 

Selkie
xx

[Chicken]

The other night, I had a glass of wine with the new man in my life, and all of a sudden I became overwhelmed by this image that came into my head, I felt like I was a delicate flower in the palm of his hand waiting to be crushed.  I had a lump in my throat!  I felt powerless.

Sorry for being particularly self-obsessed today!!   

I have one more thing to add....

I was reading back over my thread to see if I could see any progress, i came across the above quote, which I said a few months ago, I totally forgot I said that and now it has a special meaning for me...

The other day, I went into work to pick up something (I lost my job because of my exN who I used to work with) and I saw a collegue outside having a smoke.  He greets me and says "so what happened to you, why did you leave us?" and I told him very briefly and without any badmouthing or anything that it was to do with my EX and my collegue said to me in broken English-can't remember where he is from now- "you are a precious flower who needs to be watered and taken care of, that man has no idea how to do that, you get yourself someone who will treat you well"

...so when I read that thing about the flower, it kinda had special meaning for me...

[Brigid]

Selkie,
I have been reading your discussion re your therapist with interest.  I think I have some of the same issues (or at least I did when all of this started), which is why I felt more comfortable with a male therapist.  I actually surround myself with males in all aspects--attorney, accountant, insurance agent, real estate agent, etc.  Sub-consciously I don't think a woman is going to do as good a job for me.  How stupid is that, but I know that I think that way somewhere down deep.  I would guess that it has something to do with not ever feeling protected or cared for by my father, so I bring in all these replacement fathers to help me in my life. 

I do think, however, that it was in my best interest to have a male therapist and I have experienced a lot of transference with him.  It has certainly done a great deal towards breaking my cycle of choosing those dangerous men with whom to form a love relationship.

I hope you're feeling better.  It sounds like the therapy will help a lot.  Try not to be afraid of it.

Hugs,

Brigid

[Chicken]

Brigid-  
Damn!  I'm freaking out now, maybe I should have gotten a man counsellor?    I only have that problem with men after all!  It makes so much sense to go to a man! 

[bunny]

I want to have a conscious relationship.  Then at least if they are unsuitable men, I can walk away happily, rather than shifting into the subconscious and allowing them in.  This is my goal.  I will achieve it.  Awareness is the first step.

You're already ahead of the game!

 
Y'see, let me explain.  I said to my therapist that there is no way I would ever ever ever experience transference with her. 
The reason is that I would never reach such an intimate place with her, I would never and could never get to the place where I would depend on her completely.  There is no way she could ever let me down no matter what she said or did, because she doesn't have any power over me.  I just don't experience that need with anyone other than men...  the reason being, is that I could only ever have a healthy relationship with her.

Transference happens inevitably in all human interactions. It's just a word for "projections between people." She has transferences as well. It's her job to look at the transference, you don't have to do anything except talk to her.


In other words, I am conscious in my dealings with her.  She doesn't represent anyone (other than my therapist) to me.  She is my therapist and I would never put a mask on her and pretend she was someone else.

I find myself thinking he is judging me, bored, and wishing I were a different patient. These thoughts could easily be dismissed the instant I think them, but I've trained myself to admit their significance and even tell him. You may find it interesting to notice your emotional reactions to this woman. It may surprise you.


I'm not sure I'm liking this whole therapy thing.  It's isolating me and I am afraid I am going to get depressed.

I hope you can tell her.

bunny

[spyralle]

Hi Selkie,

I think you can get something out of either gender.  I think it depends more on the therapeutic realationship than the gender.  Cos of course you could say that the underlying problem is your narcissistic mother and this affects your relationship with men, so what may happen with a woman in therapy is just as valuable.  Then again when I had a male therapist I used to bring into the relationship some of the stuff that I brought into my relationships with men which was very useful.  It's funny I actually now think that particular therapist was quite abusive.  he was the one who I went to see a few weeks ago and he let me spill for an hour then said he had no slots....  he was extremely narcissistic.  At least that is what I think now!!!! and he said some quite innappropriate things.  of course that would not be true of all men which brings me back to my point that if a therapist is good either gender would have a useful role. 

i am hoping to have a safe experience with my new therapist who is a woman.  i am hoping that I will be able to test out behaviours and make mistakes and not be abandoned or abused...

i think you are right about a conscious relationship.  Trouble is sommetimes I completely ignore the conscious and the unconscious goes on overdrive.  I can think of loads of times when I have literally been propelled into doing something whilst my brain is screaming at me to put the breaks on.  i can clearly remember going to meet a guy who I so knew ws wrong.  i was driving over to his house and Chris Rea was on the radio singing "The road to Hell".....  I was singing along in joyous rebellion....  Oh dear.... and look at me now!!!!!

Spyralle xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[longtire]

Hi Longtire  :  thanks for that.  I will mention it to her.  I think at the moment there is soooooooooo much stuff that needs sorting that there is bound to be a bit of mess.  It's like a big huge messy office that has been caught up in a tornado.  -I just don't know where to start in the cleanup!  no wonder I am forgetting where I put things.   Now where did I put that...

Selkie, that sounds REALLY familiar.  It sounds like you can tell your T ANY of this and maybe it will help clear up the office a little bit.  It will all come up eventually, anyway.  Go with what's there at the moment.  Make a list if you want to.

P.S. Tell your T about the fear, isolation and fear of depression as well.

[Chicken]

Good Morning! 

Bunny said: Transference happens inevitably in all human interactions. It's just a word for "projections between people." She has transferences as well. It's her job to look at the transference, you don't have to do anything except talk to her.


Thanks for simplifying that Bunny, the way you put it is so much easier to grasp and now for the first time I understand it fully.  I guess it's your perception of what they are thinking about you or what you're talking about.  Just because you feel that way, doesn't mean it's true, it could be a manifestation of your feelings about yourself...  and this is something to explore!

Now that I know what it is, I imagine I will experience that with her.  I experienced such things with my old counsellors, most of the time I felt they weren't listening to me.  In fact I felt that about the majority of people in my life a few years ago, so much so that it began to affect my speech and I stopped speaking mid-sentence, or I would stumble and stammer and lose my train of thought and get so flustered that they actually did lose interest; they'd yawn or change the subject.  (There's a horrible self-fulfilling prophesy involved with transference, if it is to be given power)  My mother never listened to me growing up.  She would pretend to but when you would test her about what you said, she would fail miserably!

Thankfully, this passed by itself...  and I found my voice.

Transference...  as I have said earlier, I am lucky that I don't have problems with my friends and I very rarely (in fact I can't remember an incident other than the one above) experience transference with them.  It's because I feel so loved, cared for and listened to when I am with them.  I wonder is it safe to say that you only experience transference in unhealthy relationships, or relationships where you feel uneasy or insecure.  I think my romantic relationships have possibly been filled with transference as well as everything else. 

Bunny said: "...but I've trained myself to admit their significance and even tell him. You may find it interesting to notice your emotional reactions to this woman"
 

I think I will do this.  Somebody said it only works if you are unaware it is happening, but I think it would only work if I can see myself doing it, only then can I question it and pinpoint it in the future.  This transference can be quite destructive and powerful if you believe it to be reality.
It must be stopped!!!!!! 

...that is...  it must be explored in therapy, but aware of it when it happens in relationships...

[vunil]

I am not sure you can realize you are transfering versus having a "real" reaction-- all you can do is pass on your reactions and work from there.  You may be being too hard on yourself!  And if you are looking for transference during the entire session it will be hard to relax and just go with the whole thing.  Transference is a part of all relationships, just sort of another word for "perception."  None of our perceptions are objective-- they are formed by our own brain which has its own qualities to it.   In a sense our whole existence is a big ink blot test a projection.  (Now I sound like gnostic-- sorry!).

I would say let yourself go a little, let the therapy flow and report what you are feeling when you feel it, say what you want to when you want to.  Letting go is scary, but it might be relaxing for you, too. It's the one place you really can do that!

As for genders, it's very interesting.  I love the idea of exploring my relationships with men in therapy, so my last two therapists were men.  But it didn't work!  I sort of just charmed them and they coddled me. I felt like a million dollars leaving their office every time, but I didn't get very much out of the therapy. I tried to talk to them about it but it didn't work.  I think they found me intimidating. Here is a sexist comment, and I apologize for it, but I think there are statistically more effective female than male therapists.  I've seen it in my friends who are therapists, and through my friends who go to therapists.  I could be wrong!  I probably am wrong.  But it has been my experience.

Your therapist sounds good-- why not stick with her for now?  You can learn all sorts of stuff from her.  After all, she herself has relationships;  you can try to figure out what makes a good relationship from a woman's side of things, what that looks like, how to recognize a good may, how to integrate childhood into adult relationships.

I am thinking I should go back to therapy... all that sounds so good... 

[bunny]

Just because you feel that way, doesn't mean it's true, it could be a manifestation of your feelings about yourself...  and this is something to explore!

You've got it.


Transference...  as I have said earlier, I am lucky that I don't have problems with my friends and I very rarely (in fact I can't remember an incident other than the one above) experience transference with them.  It's because I feel so loved, cared for and listened to when I am with them.  I wonder is it safe to say that you only experience transference in unhealthy relationships, or relationships where you feel uneasy or insecure.  I think my romantic relationships have possibly been filled with transference as well as everything else.  

With your friends, the transference is positive. You aren't going to analyze it, because you aren't feeling distressed. But there is transference there. let me clarify: Transference is NOT A BAD THING. it is NOT destructive or wrong. It is NOT pathological. It's how human beings are hard-wired to interact. In therapy transference is explored - that is the only difference between transference there and everywhere else. Again, I don't understand why your T mentioned it to you, because it is pretty threatening for a therapist to even say that word. Mine have never used that word to me and they are psychoanalytic.  I would tell her that it bothered me if she were my T.



...I think it would only work if I can see myself doing it, only then can I question it and pinpoint it in the future.  This transference can be quite destructive and powerful if you believe it to be reality.
It must be stopped!!!!!!...that is...  it must be explored in therapy, but aware of it when it happens in relationships...

You've got it again!

[Chicken]

Bunny said: ..."Again, I don't understand why your T mentioned it to you, because it is pretty threatening for a therapist to even say that word. Mine have never used that word to me and they are psychoanalytic.  I would tell her that it bothered me if she were my T".

Just to set the record straight and to come to the defense of my T, she didn't actually use that word with me, she just sort of said that if I am experiencing any feelings towards her and if I feel for any reason that I can't trust her or depend on her (Because I stopped going to therapy last year with her for no reason  ) to let her know and we can explore those feelings together etc, I said "oh you mean like transference...."  she smiled because I think she is tickled that I am doing my research!!!!