Trusting one's judgment

[Gail]

I am new to the board and new to the concept of narcissism.  A friend gave me a book, "Why Is It Always About You?" as she thought it would help me understand my ex.  Well, that was no problem.  He's easily identified.  But, now I'm realizing more and more that my way of relating to people is dysfunctional.  In a nutshell, I'm willing to put up with a tremendous amount of mistreatment, am abnormally afraid of being thought poorly of, and way too "nice", all the while worrying that I'm being a b**** 

I understand now that these were coping mechanisms I developed to survive my childhood and I'm very aware of the need to change and to respect myself and my feelings.  However, it's hard to teach old dogs new tricks so I suspect this is going to be a challenging process.

Part of that is realizing I may have jumped from the frying pan in to the fire.  I've been involved with a man for two years who I think is also an N, but I can't seem to totally trust my judgment.  Is this common?  I feel I've gone from a N parent, to an N husband, and now an N boyfriend who has many characteristics of the N parent.    If I explain how something he's doing is hurtful, he tells me I'm being critical and that I must want to end the relationship.  I get the feeling that he wants the relationship to end but, for some reason, wants me to bear the responsibility for it ending.

Does this sound familiar to anyone?

Gail

[Sallying Forth]

Hi Gail,
Welcome to the board!

Trusting one's judgment comes through healing the hurts and pains of a childhood with a N. Step by step you will gain more confidence in your judgment and trust yourself.

Your boyfriend sounds my h who is not N but an abuser. Any confrontation is considered an attack on him personally. My h grew up with four N's and has lots of N traits.

[David P]

Of course it sounds familiar because we have all been dragged into that game by abusers and NPD parents.(The game to which you refer can be called 'the switch and blame' game) It is SOP for NPDs and other assorted abusers. They will attempt to redirect the onus back onto you - as if you are overly critical,too sensitive, unfairly judgemental and altogether, a pain in the ass. You come out feeling like not only have you not been heard, but carrying  blame,shame and  guilt for speaking your mind in the first place. This 'switch' tactic is abusive and has no place in adult loving relationships. You are connected to an abuser( possibly NPD) and if you stay you can look forward to many more charming events of this type..
Move on....David P.

(BTW, please do not ask your abuser to read these replies in the hope that he will 'see the error of his ways' and be transformed into your dream man. It NEVER happens unless he crashes and burns and cries out for help and is then willing to do the work to re-invent himself - not likely)

[Bloopsy]

Dear Gail,
My instict says that if whenever you tell him that something he does is hurtful you are then accused of being critical and wanting to end the relationship, that even if he is not N it will be very hard and probably impossible  to have a relationship with him that is not hurtful to you. It is really good that you are telling him things that are hurtful that he does thereby standing up for yourself but I admit to being really concerned because he just gets defensive about it --- you don't end up being heard!!!!! For me when I start worring is this person an N it is a signal that whether or not they are an n, the relationship is just really bad for me. I think it's really good that you are able to explain how what he is doing is hurtful and you deserve someone who could listen to you and work on treating you in a better way, not someone that is so defensive that you just end up even more hurt!!!!!!!!
Bloopsyrose

[Brigid]

Welcome Gail,
If you were raised in a family with n's, you are very susceptible to getting into relationships with them as well.  My father was n and I married 2 n men and am now divorced from both.  What has helped me to realize this and now hopefully not repeat the same pattern, is 2 years of therapy.  I'm not sure if you have ever experienced therapy, but I recommend it to help heal those deep seated wounds from your childhood that made you vulnerable to men who are emotionally unavailable, liars, and basically in need of a lot of fixing.

I wish you well on your journey.

Brigid

[Gail]

Thank you very much to those who replied to my post.  I know in my gut that I need to pull the plug on the relationship.  I'm anticipating a time of grieving as I care for this man very much.  He brought a lot of adventure to my life and, for awhile, was the bright spot in a difficult time.  I can see, too, that I looked to him for validation after my marriage ended.  I wasn't just a middle aged displaced homemaker with a passel of kids to care for.  I had a handsome boyfriend who found me attractive.  But, the pain of trying to continue this relationship on his terms is outweighing the positives.   I've had to face that I've, yet again, chosen someone who doesn't really care for me as a person.  He likes the way I look and enjoys my company, but it's really about what I can do for him, not a reciprocal relationship. 

Please pray for me--that I will have the courage to end this and go on.    And especially that I can be the example my children need and have the strength to deal with the ongoing stress of dealing with an N-xh. 

[Bloopsy]

Dear Gail,
My prayers are definiteley with you and I know that you can do it. It sure is hard to let go of someone even someone who has hurt you so much but you have a lot of support here!
Love
B

[miss piggy]

Hi Gail,

Welcome to the board.  I think one big thing it took me a looooong time to understand was...I have rights, too!  A healthy relationship isn't about "who gets to [fill in the blank]".  It's about supporting each other.  Not leaning on each other, but standing together.  But you have the right to be treated with respect.

My d is in a friendship right now that is very difficult.  Her friend is on again/off again.  The others see this and think she is willing to be treated like a doormat by anyone.  She keeps wondering what she is doing wrong.  I tell her to NOT expect this treatment, to be INDIGNANT when it happens, to SPEAK UP about what's bothering her, and to MOVE ON if it continues.  People don't change, but you can change yourself.

I also had to leave an extremely abusive situation.  I felt like the "bad guy" for doing the leaving.  Until I realized that I just wanted off the drama triangle.  People who leave the drama triangle can be perceived as the bad guy (antagonist) but they are not.  It's just the only way off.  Basically I had to realize consciously that "I am not a bad person because I need to save myself.  I am not a bad person just because I cannot help this person, because helping this person is harming me.  There will be someone else who might be better able to help this person.  Regardless, I need to leave because the present situation doesn't work for both of us."  And when that wore out I thought "OK I'm a jerk [according to the other person].  Why would [other person] want a huge jerk in their life?"  In others words, in your case, you can tell BF "OK I'm just so critical.  Guess I'm doing you a favor by leaving." 

It might help to think in terms of the relationship as a third party.  How is the relationship doing?  How does the relationship feel?  Sometimes relationships just run their course.  It doesn't mean either one of you is a bad person at all.  Perhaps you can both just appreciate the time you had together and you are both growing and moving in different directions. 

Just some random thoughts.  You may just want to take some time to find out who you are all by yourself.  I have tons of hobbies and interests that don't include my H or kids.  Not that I ignore them.  I just really enjoy a few different things than they do.  So meet your new best friend: you.

Again, welcome!  Miss Piggy

[Gail]

Oh God, it hurts so much I can hardly breathe.  I sent the e-mail (we live quite a distance apart which is another hard thing about the relationship for me logistically) explaining that the relationship was just too painful for me to continue under the circumstances.  (Those circumstances being he has insisted on keeping his profile up on multiple personal sites despite us being together for two years and requires me to initiate almost all contact.  He also requires me to pay for half of any activities we do together, despite his much, much higher net worth and income, and my obligation to be the primary support of 5 children with much more limited means.)  His response again was that it was normal for me to feel critical after 2 years--that he was perfectly happy with me and would miss me.  But, since I felt the way I did, it was better to end it and go on to the next thing...

I started to explain myself, again, with a return e-mail.  It feels so unfair that he should put this all on me.  He takes no responsibility for the end nor shows any understanding of my feelings.  He said my reasons are just rationalizations--biology at work causing me to feel critical after a certain time.

Reason prevailed and I cancelled the e-mail and didn't send it.  He's got an IQ of 140.  Surely, he's smart enough to understand why things as they stand are so hard on me.

Now what?  I guess I just hang in there and try to work through the pain.  I sure wish I hadn't jumped into another relationship so soon after my divorce.  My neediness made me very vulnerable.  On the bright side, at least now I understand naricissism and that my ability to tolerate mistreatment and a high level of pain is not a healthy character trait.

I thought about what one of you said--that feeling shame and confusion after an interaction are part of this sickness.  Well, I'm definitely feeling those emotions.  I'm asking myself, "Gee, maybe I should have accepted the personal sites thing.  After all, he said it was just for entertainment--that he had no intention of actually meeting anyone.  And maybe it wasn't such a big deal for me to have to call him all the time.  After all, my long distance is "free" and he never knows if I might still be busy with the kids.  And, of course he doesn't understand my concern about how it looks to my children for us to be spending nights together and travelling together, and what example that sets for my teenage daughters.  After all, he's never had children and has no interest in interacting with mine. 

He's always told me that he would never leave me--that if the relationship ends, I will be the one to do it.  But I feel manipulated into doing so.  Then, I doubt if I am reading the situation accurately.

This is very hard.

Gail

[Gail]

As I think through all this today, I realize there was much more that made me feel diminished as a person.

For example, almost every time we were together the last several months, he made a dig about my weight.  Now, I'm 5'5" and wear a size 8.  Not exactly skin and bones, but certainly normal weight.  I was proud that I still had a figure at my age and after bearing so many children, but found myself dissatisfied with my appearance, and just waiting for the next comment.  He finally told me he would prove to me that I was heavier than when we met by showing me pictures of two years ago.  I might be a pound or two heavier, but nothing significant.  Still, it left me fighting to feel OK about my physical appearance.

If I picked out the movie, it was almost never any good.  If I was reading something, he'd ask me why I always had my nose in a book.  He picked out the TV shows we watched.  Mine were always "awful".  I had a contract to do some professional writing.  He criticized it, telling another person, in front of me, that my writing style was terrible.  My children were irresponsible, my house was plain, my hair was too short, my waist too thick, my driving was terrible, and so on.   He once cursed at me, using the f word, for accidentally putting a stick in a wood stove that was his special fire stirring stick.  Accidentally burning his 20 year old can opener's cord on the stove was another offense that deserved a tirade.  He called me "Blubbering Gail" when I shed a few tears after being terrified about driving in a snowstorm when I couldn't see out of the windshield on an unfamiliar freeway, then ridiculed me about it in front of someone else.  He told me repeatedly that I had too much self confidence--that I thought I could do anything, but really was inappropriately sure of myself.  Most of my decisions he second guessed--important ones like how to sell my old house, or what employment I should choose.

Of course, it didn't start out like this or we wouldn't have been together for 2 years.  We had some really wonderful adventures together.   We enjoyed each other's company.  We'd talk for hours at night on the phone about all sorts of different, interesting topics.  Isn't that what makes letting go hard--when there is so much good that it almost makes the bad bearable? 

It helps to get it all written down where I can see it.   

Gail 

[mudpuppy]

Hi Gail,

He told me repeatedly that I had too much self confidence--that I thought I could do anything, but really was inappropriately sure of myself.

That's the crux of everything right there.
These people are, at heart, terrified little children. They are just quivering blobs of insecurities, almost always masked by bravado and sarcasm and claims to great competence and insight. And so they can't stand actual self confidence in others; it makes them jealous.
The good times were just a worm on a hook to reel you in.
Change your e-mail and phone number and your address if you have to. If you don't sooner or later he'll try reeling you back in again. This geek is a classic N.
BTW a 140 IQ doesn't help much when his emotional age is single digits.
Maybe you could look for a guy who's as dumb as a stump but loves your kids next time.  Just make sure you wait a good long while before you start looking.

mudpup

[miss piggy]

Oh my goodness, ditch this guy!!  why think twice?

Many smart people think they're the greatest, but really do not have Clue One about relating.  They think it's all about them.  I think he's whipped the guilt on you because his experience has shown that even the nicest people can only put up with him for two years. 

Ugh. I"m sorry you're hurting.  MP

[Gail]

Thanks to you both of the mp's for your support.  I'm feeling rather weepy right now as this is the time of night that BF and I usually talked.  I was supposed to go visit him for the weekend tomorrow.  I re-read his last e-mail to me and it's so sad because he talks about me dumping him, yet he was perfectly happy with me.  I know he genuinely did enjoy our times together as I also did.  We went skiing in Colorado, jeeping in Utah, went to Alaska, went on long road trips to visit both sets of parents, canoeing, to museums, concerts, movies.  He gave me an escape from the constant demands of caring for so many children--something to look forward to.  And now I'm turning my back on all that. 

I have to keep reminding myself.  This is a man who said he would "feel trapped" if he took his personal ads off the dating sites, that it made him feel like I "was an enemy" and "pissed him off" when I told him how bad it made me feel to read that he was hoping to find someone to share his life with.  I was supposed to accept that didn't mean anything, that he was single and had every right to that form of entertainment.  I'm thinking that would be a deal breaker for any woman with a shred of self respect.

I don't think he'll contact me again.  He said it was best that, since I was so critical, the relationship end and that we be able to move on to the next "thing, whatever that may be."  I don't feel like a thing.  I feel like a person who has been badly hurt.

I do feel terribly lonely.  I have all these kids to take care of, a nutty ex-husband who I learned was living a double life for many years, and I've given so much time and energy to BF that I've let my friendships go, not developing them the way I should have.

I'm really upset with myself, too, for not running at the first sign that this was not going to have a good ending.

It's taking a lot of effort not to pick up the phone and call him--to make one last attempt at reason.  I know, though, that it will be futile.  I've said it all before.  It would be demeaning to try again to explain.

Gail

[Brigid]

Gail,
From what you have said, I would say that you are dealing with a classic n personality who would hurt you and your children if you stayed in a relationship with him.  I'm not sure how much you can trust him, but I would venture a guess that he doesn't just have his ad posted on personal sites, but is most likely contacting women and meeting them behind your back.  These are men who will lie about anything and are incapable of having an intimate relationship.  They will seek out vulnerable women who, like yourself, are coming off a bad divorce, single parenting 5 children who would be desperate to have someone give them attention.  I met my second ex right after ending the relationship with the first (I did not have children at that time), never took any time to examine my life and figure out where I was going.  I jumped into a relationship with him and married him after 2 years of dating.  I will never regret the marriage as I have my two wonderful children, but 22 years later I found out the man I thought I was married to was very different from the man he was.

It will be very painful for a time.  You will feel lonely, sad, afraid and blame yourself.  You will want to reconcile because you will think about all the wonderful times you shared and minimize all the negative things he has done.  However, if you work through the pain, concentrate on getting yourself healthy, focus on your children and heal the wounds, your life has great promise for happiness.  But you must do the hard work of healing yourself.  It's not easy, but the payoff is grand.

Eventually, you will be able to look back and know that you have made the right decision and you will be so much better off.  I would recommend doing this with the help of a therapist or at least some kind of support group.  They can help to keep you focused on moving forward rather than getting stuck at that sad and lonely place.  If you really become depressed, AD's can be helpful during the worst of it. 

Many blessings,

Brigid

[mum]

((((((((((Gail)))))))))))
I could have written that verbatim three years ago.
I got involved with another, much more charming N soon after my divorce from my children's father.  I could quote most of what you wrote and respond with: "you are talking about my life/second husband". 
Be glad you didn't marry that good looking Nidiot!
At least you don't have to give him money (like I had to.....blasted community property state!!).

So you are NOT alone in this.....and I say that not say you are not unique (everyone is) but to show you solidarity.  It is perfectly understandable, after being in a marriage to an N, to fall for a charmer who makes you feel special again, even if it's all an act.  This makes you rather normal, not pathetic.

The one thing I suggest you do IMMEDIATELY is stop feeling like an idiot.  Just stop it.  You loved someone who didn't deserve you.  It is that plain and simple. HE is an idiot and you are a saint for not slashing his tires or worse. This guy is a loser. You are not. 

Find a decent therapist and start talking and healing.... come here and dump, we can take it!!  We've all been there, you are among friends.  Breathe.  The toxic air left over from this man will soon leave.  You will breathe again. Bless you!!
MUM