Emotional disloyalty is abandonment -

[David P]

This post is ,in part, a response to Dawnings' post regarding her 'SO-guy' problem and partly,in response to some recent conversations that i had with my bud,Joe (remember him) who is married to Jeni.

Firstly to Dawning - My take on her story was that she was struggling with her feelings after her SO guy accused her of being selfish, inventing stories and having 'ugly thoughts' about his continuing relationship with an ExGF. She seemed to be confused about how much she was 'entitled' to feel about that matter and whether her feelings were legitimate and also whether his response was abusive .

Her SO (IMO) came off as harsh, attacking and just plain hostile towards her and her feelings. He discounted and devalued her in a most brutal way by attacking the most vulnerable parts of her - her feelings towards him and their relationship.

 The replies,on this forum, to her post unanimously supported her and condemned his behavior and even went as far as to warn her about continuing the relationship with him. I agree with all the replies.

Those of us who were raised by N parents or abusive parents know how this game is played only too well. The N or abuser attacks where it will do most damage. This is driven by a compulsive need to control by demoralizing the other person even if the other person is your own small child. The need to dominate,demoralize and harm others into submission is such a powerful force in these people,and practised so relentlessly that we, as children, probably enter the adult world with a poor sense of entitlement and thoroughly confused about negotiating our way through the myriad obstacles in intimate relationionships and conflict in general.
Bewilderment followed by retreat sums up my view of,and response to,adult conflicts.

One would have thought that we would have had done with 'abuser and controllers'. Instead, as victims of N parents ,we seem to seek them out unintentionally ( or they find us). Then we just go around too often and stay too long in the sad hope that we can 'make' them love us.
 Maybe we believe that If only we can find a way to make them see that we are such worthwhile and decent people then surely they will drop the mean act and let their light shine on us.  And so guys like me date flimsy egocentric,manipulating 'babes' who see me as an object, and, girls like you date domineering abusive men and never give the 'nice' guys a chance.  We get with the ' loonies' and dump the 'lovelies' !!.
I guess that one of the questions that Dawning was asking was this - is she in an abusive relationship or is she experiencing some of the regular difficulties which happen in coupledom. In my view she was emotionally insulted,devalued and abandoned by a man who is planning to marry her. Not a good sign Dawning!

Now let me tell you about someting that my buddie Joe said to me and I invite your comments.
He related a story of his wedding day to Jeni.They were married in a garden ceremony at the reception hall. Jeni had invited about forty of her friends and relatives and Joe invited his family and some close friends - about a dozen in all.

After the wedding ceremony they both mingled with the guests in the garden and chatted for a while and then Joe walked into the reception hall to check on the readiness of the restuarant.He did a quick inspection,organised a few things and talked to the staff and everything looked ready for the party.It was now around 5pm. He walked outside and asked Jeni to come inside and look at the arrangements.
She walked inside with Joe and he said ."It all looks ready -we can start the reception now."
Jeni replied ." We are all having such a nice time outside -they are not ready to come inside yet."
Then she turned away and just walked outside and continued to chat with her guests leaving Joe standing in the hall waiting. He said that he did not know what to do next so he walked out to the carpark,had a smoke and walked back inside the hall,and had some coffee and just waited for another twenty minutes until Jeni decided that she and her friends were ready to party.
He told me this story with a mixture of bewilderment and resentment. He felt that on his weeding day the Jeni had put her relationship with her friends ahead of him and he felt like walking away. I agreed that she had indeed done that too.
Funnily enough, he is still being treated like a stranger and a 'suspect' in their marriage. He is miserable and it seems that the marriage will fail inspite of some three months of counseling.

Enough from me-what do you girls think?(And Mud and Longie)

David in TX
 

[Hopalong]

I am very sorry for your friend. If I could tell him anything from my experience, it would be, don't stay. Accept that you have made a mistake and correct it as quickly as you can. Get out.

At my wedding reception my new H left me standing there and went off to talk to his friends behind the building. It was a harbinger. People kept asking me, where is he? I was embarrassed and had a sinking feeling. That night he drank too much (I'd never seen him drink before) and roared and cursed at me and I spent the night sobbing in the bathroom. I should have gone for an annullment but was ashamed. People had come from other states, how could I?

I stayed with him six years. Within the first year I found out he had lied on legal documents, and lied to me about: who his parents were, what degree he had from what institution, previous relationships, and more. After the first year he suddenly lost interest in sex and wouldn't touch me for five years. I spent the first two of those sleeping in the attic, crying myself to sleep every night.

Now, about 10 years after our divorce, I run into him now and then. He told me (about his new wife, whom he "imported" from Siberia: I worry about Tanya. I say, oh, why? He said, because she can't lie. It was with a straight face and I realized that for him lying was a necessary way of dealing with the world. Dealing with it straight, being honest, was simply not a choice.

He was terribly damaged. I forgive him, and I have healed. But I am so sorry that I gave him those years. Those years were also the second half of my daughter's childhood, which he made much more miserable for her too (that part I have a hard time forgiving myself for).

Anyway, all situations are different and this is likely not exactly what your friend is dealing with. But I do think your gut sense that it will not be good for him to stay in this marriage is right. Is there any hope that he will leave?

Hopalong

[Marta]

Wait, is this the same Jenni who expects him to hop naked into bed with his teenage stepdaughter? At the time, he was still thinking about convincing Jenni for counselling, that wasn't even a few weeks ago, so how come he has he already had three months of counselling? Why do you want our comments on this one? I am confused.

[Gail]

David,

I want to tell you that your post helped me more than you can know.  You described my relationship with X BF, and my reaction to it, perfectly.  I'm in the stage of mourning our relationship where it is extremely difficult not to look for a reason to have some contact.  Thanks to your post, you just made that easier.  Where I was most vulnerable, he attacked.  Disgusting.

What X BF did to me was nothing compared to XH's behavior.  He discounted my feelings about his extremely inappropriate and destructive relationship with another woman.  He called me every name in the book because I wouldn't accept it, and finally divorced him--controlling, bitchy, paranoid, jealous, hypocritical, abusive, mean, and on and on.  Worse, he tried to convince the children that I was at fault for the divorce, keeping in line with his long standing behavior pattern of trying to make me the bad guy in almost every situation.  He blamed me for his pornography and strip club use, and even his extramarital sexual encounters--saying I was a rebellious, disobedient wife.

Your post finally cemented for me that I absolutely should not take the behavior of these two men personally.  The roots of my willingness to accept their mistreatment, until it became outrageous, stem from my childhood years.  I may struggle again with the feeling part of relationshps, but I will never again accept mistreatment.  

I agree with Hopalong.  At the first sign of narcissism or abuse again, the appropriate response is to get out as quickly as possible.  The hope that the person will change, given enough time, is magical thinking.  I hope Dawning gets out of that relationship before she marries the guy.  He sounded to me, too, like someone who thinks he is "more enlightened" than the rest of the world--thus he's puffed up that X GF seems to be benefitting from his great wisdom.  XBF also looked at himself that way.  One of his excuses for continuing on the personal sites, despite my distress about it, was that he could "help" some of the women who contacted him with his great advice.  UGH!

[mum]

Well, we can't really know about them, can we? This is third party talking and neither of those people are here expressing themselves. It all sounds dissapointing and sad. I certainly can't comment except that I hope they both find peace, in or out of the relationship. 
If either one of them were here....I'm sure we could show support somehow. If they were both here....well, that would be tough (that doesn't seem to work for some reason)
It's just all sad, really. They could both be right/both be wrong...whose to say?

[Brigid]

To my very wise and thoughtful "son" David,
Apparently Joe decided to ignore the many significant red flags that were being raised during his courtship with Jenni.  He is already paying the price for that and it will only get worse.  When I hear my friends making all the excuses about why they are still in a relationship with someone who is hurting them emotionally, I want to shake them until their teeth rattle.  But they are adults who have to come to those decisions on their own and eventually bear the burden of that decision. 

I agree with your assessment of why those of us raised by n's choose to make such poor choices in mates.  I'm convinced that good therapy is the best way to get beyond that.  It certainly opened my eyes.

Hugs from "mom"

Brigid

[mudpuppy]

Hi David,

I can't say as I recall the story of Jenni and Joe, but if what Marta says is true it sounds like Jenni oughta be in jail.

Men at weddings generally look like they have been hit on the back of the neck with a sock full of wet sand. Women generally act like its not only the greatest day in their lives its the greatest day in everyone's life and everyone needs to realize that.  So maybe they were both acting a little goofy. If the situation hasn't changed though then sounds like Joe put his foot in it.

How long have they been married? If its just a few months then maybe Jenni is having a hard time adjusting. Assuming she doesn't have a PD she could change at some point.

Unfortunately, IMO marriage has become a joke. The natural consequence of being able to give up on a marriage as soon as the first bad thing happens is people jump into marriage without caring whether they even know the other person, after all you can just dump them anytime you want. If you enter it with the idea that you're gonna stick it our for life you tend to be a little pickier and those red flags tend to take on a little more significance.
Now obviously there are con men and women who fool people and there are people who turn out to be impossible to live with. Many of their victims are on this board. But for many people marriage is no more serious to them than their first 'steady' boy or girl friend. You give them their class ring and letterman's jacket back and hit the road, and if there are any kids involved tough noogies for them.
Of course none of that helps somebody like Joe who's already stuck, but once you're stuck your choices are limited. Either you amputate and move on, sadder but wiser, or you make the best of a bad situation and live with it. I don't know of any middle way.
That'll be two cents please, although I'm probably overcharging.

mud

[Healing&Hopeful]

Hi David

From the glimpse that you have given us of your friend's lives and their wedding day, it would be incredibly hard to say.  However if Marta's post is true, then I am speechless and I think if that was one of my friends I would support them to try and find a solution which would be leaving the relationship.

As someone who recently got married, I was very aware of our guests and how happy they were, asking them if they were enjoying themselves etc etc.  I wasn't one of those "I'm the bride and it's my day".  However I feel Joe also had a choice, he didn't have to go out to the car park and have a smoke and wait around, he could have gone and chatted as well.

Mud.... from a personal perspective I disagree with you about people jumping into marriage.  As my biological parents were divorced, it was a decision I thought very hard about, made sure I lived with my husband previous to the marriage and we've been together 4+ years.  I definitely went into this for the long haul and fully expect to faithfully grow old with him.

I do think most people go into marriage seriously, obviously not all, but most.  I feel that the problem is that people don't learn to adapt and change enough.  I'm not on about abuse here, any abuseful behaviour and the other party should leave, but I'm talking about change through life.  I feel that too many people think that because one of the couple has changed, either work, homelife etc then it's ok to walk away.  If they communicated and worked through stuff so they were both happy, then it would be better.  Marriage isn't happy ever after, it starts with the wedding and then has to be worked at for the remainder of your life.

My two cents.... for what they're worth!

H&H xx

[mudpuppy]

Hi Hoppy,

Well I was speaking of general trends not universally. Obviously many people take marriage extremely seriously before they jump into it.
 My point was the ease, both legally and morally, with which people now abandon their marriage at the first sign of trouble induces many people to approach it more frivolously than they would otherwise.
And I agree completely about people being unwilling to adapt. Thats what people used to be more willing to do. I also agree it does not apply to abuse and the failed marriages that are so typical of this site, where you have emotional and physical abuse.

[Hopalong]

Hi MudPuppy,
That was actually H&H you were responding to, but I agree with both of you! And I loved your description of how brides and grooms behave.
H and H, how very lucky your husband is. What a grownup you are.

(One of the things that maddens me most about being a child-of-N wary of my own N-spots is the amount of time I spend grinding my teeth over what I'm doing, and I periodically lift my nose out of my bellybutton and look around and think gee, what are all those busy competent people doing? Oh right, they're grownups.)

Every now and then I wish my inner child would take a nap.
Hopalong

[mudpuppy]

Sorry H&H and hoppy,

Guess all those h's got me a little more confused than usual.

mud

[longtire]

David my (slightly younger) boy, has Joe taken any of your advice?  Does he keep askign for it, but ignoring it and doing his own thing anyway?  Maybe you are better off to let him deal with the consequences of his choices and his actions.  It can be an unhealthy thing on both sides when someone keeps asking for advice and support, but then turns around and ignores it.  Actually, support is great when the person being supported is pushing toward health.  However, if they are trapped in an unhealthy cycle it can easily turn into a victim-rescuer relationship (Karpman Triangle).  Take care of yourself first, even when helping others.

[David P]

Marta , I posted that they had three months of counseling -I meant three weeks. And Yes, It was the same Joe and Jeni who had MOm's teenager in bed.

The reason that I asked for comment was that I saw Joe's predicament as an example of 'emotional disloyalty' which was the subject of this topic. I started the topic because someone suggested that 'emotional loyalty' was a suitable topic ..
I am interested in everyone's opinion on the Joe and Jeni wedding day issue. Was there some emotional disloyalty or not?

Jongtire,
    Joe is going OK.He still holds a thread of hope that the marriage can be repaired. Jeni is more likely to bail IMO because she sees marriage as one long date. She holds Joe responsible  for her warm and fuzzy feelings.She seems to confuse infatuation with love.

Gail,
     Thanks for your kind words and I am glad that I found the words that had meaning for you.
The N behavior that damaged us so deeply is unforgivable or at the least,unforgettable.
However I have learned that a productive and healthy relationship with them is also not possible.
Maybe all that we can do is to erect strong boundaries and guard them fiercely.

Brigid, Hi 'MOM", hope everything is OK back home .Send more money!

Your prodigal 'Son' David P.

[Brigid]

David, dear,

Brigid, Hi 'MOM", hope everything is OK back home .Send more money!

Everything is fine at home.  Why is it that I only hear from you when you need money and never just to see how I'm doing?? 

You really could be my son.

Brigid, aka Mom

[David P]

Hi 'MOM' and yes, I am not too good at asking after your wellbeing because I am still self centered and consumed by my own needs and wants and I still just regard you as my Mom!! You just know what to do and stuff and because I am only 27 years old I figure that I can get away with this for a while longer.Maybe till I am 30. Anyways,how are you and did you mail the check?

You loving and devoted son, David.
Oh BTW could you get some new tires on my Mustang coz I will need it in Spring Break. The keys are somewhere in my room.