Spending too much time alone...

[Learning]

Hello Selkie and All,

It has been awhile since I have written on this forum, but I have been here reading quite often.  This topic is exactly what I am dealing with today and I would like to offer my own experience.

This morning I agonized about going to meet some women and their daughters for a play date.  They meet every Wednesday and it is actually very nice.  My daughters love it and I also like the distraction.  Yet I don't want to go.  In fact I have missed three of these play dates already (with no good reason).  Just before sitting down to write this, I made a half hearted attempt at getting the girls ready to go.  They suggested they would like to play at home and that was all I needed.  Home it is.  Sounds good to me.  This has become a way of life for me.  I only leave the house when I have obligations or my therapist appointment.  (I'm sooooo thankful for the internet and e-shopping! )

Selkie--I can relate to what you are saying.  I also like the distractions of my friends, yet I don't think I've ever let myself need anyone (except my H to some extent).  My t has also brought this up to me recently, about my relationship with him.  I was suprised but realized that he was right and I know why I don't let myself need anyone.  Rejection...over and over again.  Parents, siblings, men, friends...all the Ns that were either given to me or who I later chose rejected me whenever I needed anything.  Basically, it makes me feel like I don't exist.  So I'm really not sure that I'm up to giving it another try.  I am still confused about what exactly I am suppose to need from others.

I also like the idea of having a level of comfort with friends, but I am always worried that they have one foot out the door of our relationship. 

All in all, I agree that spending time alone is important in getting to know one's self and processing the past.  Changing requires vulnerability, and, for me at least, it is hard to be vulnerable in a crowd or with people I can't trust enough to need.

Best,
Learning

[Chicken]

Hi Learning-

Yep, completely relate.  Any teeny tiny inkling of an opportunity to pull out of an arrangement, and I will!   

I am fabulous at making plans for next week, but as soon as next week comes around, I start to dread the plan I've made.  I usually let the person call me, because in the event that they should forget or just flake, then it lets me off the hook...  I walk around the place like a cat who got the cream when i've been let off the hook.  Yippee!  I have the evening to myself again...

I allow people to flake.  I am very understanding to these things that suddenly "come up" and interrupt our plans to meet.  I don't like how this sounds though when I see it in print.  I have a feeling if I did commit to people more, I would develop a need.  Essentially, what we are doing here is nipping that need in the bud.  Quite sad really when you think of it.  Are we subconsciously avoiding people?  It feels ultra safe here, and my friends never hurt my feelings or never really phase me.  That's a nice place to be, isn't it?  No one can get to you, you are guaranteed 100% peace, no crazyness, no problems just 100% safety.  You get used to hanging out in this place and it's fine!  I'm very very very comfortable here!  I love it!

I go through this with my counsellor too though and i want to work through it.  I go through periods where I want to quit counselling.  I get really pissed off in the morning before my counselling session, I feel like I am being inconvenienced, my appointment is too early, it's too expensive, It's too intense, I don't feel like talking today...  never came out with so many excuses in my life!!!  I used to believe my excuses, now I am seeing them for what they are and i am desperately trying to come up with answers as to WHY I really don't want to go. 

When i do go, I feel better.  I feel like I need my counsellor now but every so often I go through this again.  Is it some kind of intimacy we sense that keeps us at bay?  Say if levels of intimacy were floors in a building, well I experience this on the stairwell to each floor.  I get over the first hurdle, and that's ok, but then there's another one further down the road.  I want to pull out altogether, don't want to be in that building at all.  I think that's what happens, though it doesn't feel like it to me on a conscious level. 

You meet every Wednesday, that sounds like a bit of a commitment and you said it is really nice!  Doesn't make sense why you wouldn't go!?  Interesting stuff... worth exploring as I feel like we are missing out on something!  What, I do not know, but it's worth finding out!  We can always go back to our caves if we don't like it 

P.S Going out to dinner tonight with some friends...  bummer!  Ha Ha! - I have already planned my escape route at the end of the evening

[Chicken]

Just an after thought Learning, my parents were very similar to me in this regard.  I think I learned a lot of my behaviours from watching theirs.  I am not sure how much of it is really me.  I wonder if your child is echoing you or feeding off your energy in avoiding the play date.  I might be totally off the mark here so correct me if you don't agree.  I am just beginning to look into this world of "putting things off" or "making excuses"... 


Regards,

Selkie

[Marta]

I allow people to flake.  I am very understanding to these things that suddenly "come up" and interrupt our plans to meet.  I don't like how this sounds though when I see it in print.  I have a feeling if I did commit to people more, I would develop a need.

I used to be that way too. In my case, I simply hadn't realized that it is "normal" to expect other people to not stand you up last minute or whatever. If that happened to me, I felt too ashamed, like others were saying you are not significant enough for me to show up for this movie we planned weeks ago. Since I always second guessed myself, I simply took what was given to me. If your friends do this to you often, then they are not treating you right.

It appears to me that this is not needs but expectations. To be able to expect something from others takes a sense of self-worth and not being needy actually, because if you expect, then you risk rejection. If you expect nothing, then there is no rejection -- so in fact it is very needy indeed to expect nothing of others. At least in my case, it was about needing others so much that I was saying fine, whatever to any bad behavior. I was too ashamed to admit that others were treating me badly, so I simply said, fine whatever. In my family, if I expected and did not get something, it felt like my fault, and there was huge shame associated with that.

Selkie, you could expect nothing from your family and mom, so that is how you have gone about in the world. But indeed there are friends who show up as promised, and how good it feels when someone treats you like you are worth their while.  

[Learning]

Hi Selkie,

How was dinner?  Did your escape plan work?   I hope you had fun.

Yep, we seem to be on a similar journey.  I also allow people to flake, but it does bother me now.  I used to not be in touch with how it bothered me.  Now I allow myself to feel the anger when I get blown off or something and after I cool off I decide what to do.  If it is someone who has a good track record with me, I will tell them how I feel.  If it is someone who has done this before or someone I'm not that interested in I will accept their action as their fault and continue a friendly, albeit distant relationship with them.  In my anger, I still go through some thoughts about it being my fault, but I try to talk myself through it.  I mean, if I look at the flipside about me bowing out of these Wednesday playdates, it isn't my friends' faults.  It is mine.  My issue.  So when someone does it to me...it is their issue...not mine.  Still, it is normal to feel angry and I do. (BTW, I'm quite proud of that, feeling my anger...it's been a long road...)

I have a feeling if I did commit to people more, I would develop a need. 

Do you think it is possible that the need is already there?

Are we subconsciously avoiding people?  It feels ultra safe here, and my friends never hurt my feelings or never really phase me.  That's a nice place to be, isn't it?  No one can get to you, you are guaranteed 100% peace, no crazyness, no problems just 100% safety.  You get used to hanging out in this place and it's fine!  I'm very very very comfortable here!  I love it!

At this point, I am definetly conciously avoiding people.   Well, sort of I guess.  I mean I am constantly with people...my children or my husband.  And we have tons of activities that we take the kids too.  It is me personally, who is avoiding intimacy within friendships.  I've become a homebody.  It is safe, you are right.  And in many ways it is a very nice place to be, although I still feel like I'm missing something.  I am fortunate to have my dh, and we have a pretty good relationship.  Although, I think that we both have residual intimacy issues that can be worked on.

I go through this with my counsellor too though and i want to work through it.  I go through periods where I want to quit counselling.  I get really pissed off in the morning before my counselling session, I feel like I am being inconvenienced, my appointment is too early, it's too expensive, It's too intense, I don't feel like talking today...  never came out with so many excuses in my life!!!  I used to believe my excuses, now I am seeing them for what they are and i am desperately trying to come up with answers as to WHY I really don't want to go.

Selkie, I think that what you are feeling is part of the therapy process.  Have you been able to talk to your t about it?  It is very helpful if you can. Your t can help your understand why and it will help with your healing.

Oooh!  I really like your visual of the stairwells and intimacy.  Yes it is like that for me too.  And I can really relate for hoping for a fire drill or something so I can bail out of the building.   

A quick note on me and commitment.  I have no fear of what I've come to think about as structured commitments.  In fact, my life is full of them.  I am afraid of commitment to people when it is just about me and them as friends.  In other words, when I have a clear responsibility to someone...no problemo.  When I just need to be me...hasta la vista.   Relates to that fear of rejection thing.

Just an after thought Learning, my parents were very similar to me in this regard.  I think I learned a lot of my behaviours from watching theirs.  I am not sure how much of it is really me.  I wonder if your child is echoing you or feeding off your energy in avoiding the play date.  I might be totally off the mark here so correct me if you don't agree.  I am just beginning to look into this world of "putting things off" or "making excuses"... 

I'm sorry Selkie, but I am not clear about what you mean here.  From the way I read this, here is my thought process...Do my children sense my moods?  Yes absolutely.  Do I sense theirs?  Yes absolutely.  Do my children learn from me and dh what is acceptable?  Yes absolutely.  Is deciding to listen to our feelings about what we want to do acceptable?  Yes absolutely.

Maybe you could let me know more about your situation with your parents.

Let me know if I got it (so to speak), or if I was way off base.

Cheers and hugs,
Learning

[spyralle]

Oh God Selkie, I sometimes feel like you are my twin....

I do exactly the same thing.  I am always very enthusiastic and the first to agree to making plans, but when that day comes around I will do anything to get out of doing whatever it is I am supposed to be doing.  i will make up elaborate excuses or i simply will not answer my phone no matter how persistant the other person is.  I am terrified of being alone and yet being with others does not fullfill something either, unless they are the same as my mother I guess.  Often when I do go to where ever it is all I want to do is go home, and sometimes I fnd it very difficult to concentrateon the conversation.  i don't think they know this because I have had a lifetime of pretending but it's like there is a disconnection somewhere.

it's like I can only go so far and then I switch off.  same thing happens to me in therapy too.  I didn't go this week.  had to stay in and wait for a fridge freezer.....  Even though I knew it wasn't coming (Long story)  If the therapist touches on anything intimate My brain noticeably disconnects.  i tell her when it is happening now so that we can try to build up a pattern around it.  Sorry I'm going on about me but this thread touched something for me...

Hope you are OK

Spyralle x

[Chicken]

Spyralle, What are we like!!!   

[Chicken]

Oh P.S...  Was the fridge freezer a genuine excuse for not making your counsellor appointment?  or is she getting too close for comfort? 

[October]

So much of this thread is familiar!!!  I have become progressively social phobic over recent years, because of the impact of traumatic events and retraumatisation.  It happens, pretty well inevitably, at times, but the more time I spend at home, the less chance there is of it happening on any given day.

I remember before I found this strategy, going out day after day, and getting these terrible things happening that I didn't understand and couldn't explain.  Often I didn't even see the trigger, I would just be overwhelmed with this terrible feeling, and not know where it was coming from.  I would fight against it, and try to compare it with reality, but sometimes I would not be strong enough to stop it, and have to return home as soon as I could, or at the least walk away on my own, to find some peace.  Sometimes this would happen three or four or more times in a week, and it would leave me a wreck.  These are not panic attacks, but some of the feelings are similar; they are incidents of retraumatisation.

So, fast forward to today.  Last week I had the difficult time in the car.  That was on Saturday.  Then I stayed in the house until Wednesday, when we ran out of food, and I had to go to the supermarket.  I ended up a nervous wreck doing that, and felt really ill, and spent the next afternoon asleep to recover from it.  Then today.  This morning I have taken C to her new school, 20 miles from home, for a 3 hour art session.  Screen printing  I was going to spend the time in the car, reading, but I have a friend nearby, and I am at her house instead.

This friend has N traits - as all  my friends do - but she has given me a house key so I can come here whenever I want, when C is at school, which is going to be sooo useful in the months ahead.  She has told me to help myself to anything, and she has left  me her computer to play with - which is where I am now.

If today goes well, then that is a big achievement both for C and me, in terms of making contact with the real world once more, and breaking out of our self imposed exile in my house.  I know it is tempting to stay safe, but this is a cumulative thing; once you start then the only way to go is to be less and less social, less and less involved in life.  And it is soooooo boring.  Safe, but deadly dull.

I always feel like staying at home when I have a social event to go to.  Usually that is because my family is involved, which is always more or less of a nightmare.  And C has learned the same kind of dread in advance of anything.  But we recognise it, cope with the feelings, and go anyway, with the understanding that if it is really awful we will come straight home again.  At least that way you have half a chance of having a good time.

[longtire]

Hi October, I hope today goes well for you.  If not, then I honor your feelings and know that you will do the best for yourself and your D.  I've really found that the more I go out, the easier it gets to go out.  Even the times I "give up" and retreat back home make it easier the next time.  By the way, I think your post was the most common-sense way I have seen this all expressed.

[October]

Thanks Longtire.  Yes, today we chalk up as a success.  This will tell you how wonderful this friend of mine is.  Not only did she give me free access to her house whenever I need it because of school, I also mentioned to her that I had intended to call at my sils house on the way home with a birthday present for my nephew, but that I had left the present at home.  So she gave me a present from her christmas collection for her children, and some wrapping paper, to save me having to return next week.  And she wouldn't take any money for it, so I said I would babysit for her some time, whenever she needs it.

I picked C up after her lesson and she was smiling and happy, and said it was really good, and the teacher was lovely.  She said the children could eat their lunch in the classroom when they wanted to, and the atmosphere was so relaxed and happy.  And the teacher said her self portrait was very good, and well proportioned.     I am so pleased that this seems to be working out.

So, on the way home I called and had coffee with sil (with c, which is unusual, because she does not like to go there.  Violence issues with my b and his children.  Also, they have a dog, and she is nervous of dogs.)  So that went ok.  Then we called at a garden centre on the way home and bought c some holographic card for craft work.  Then we called at my parents, because they didn't know about the home ed thing yet, so I told them about it, except not really.  I said she has joined another school, which allows part time pupils.  That was to save my dad freaking about her dropping out of education or whatever.  (Nothing like the child supporting the parents, is there?)

So after all that it has been a real marathon of a day.  I came home, and the next door neighbour took c to buy some chips and coke, which gave me some time to sleep.  I am still feeling very tired, but not too bad, and at least we now have the weekend.  I always try not to do anything at all on a  Sunday, to help recover.  Not that I do much any other day, to be honest.  Except today.  Today felt like regaining some of the lost ground.

[Sallying Forth]

It appears to me that this is not needs but expectations. To be able to expect something from others takes a sense of self-worth and not being needy actually, because if you expect, then you risk rejection. If you expect nothing, then there is no rejection -- so in fact it is very needy indeed to expect nothing of others. At least in my case, it was about needing others so much that I was saying fine, whatever to any bad behavior. I was too ashamed to admit that others were treating me badly, so I simply said, fine whatever. In my family, if I expected and did not get something, it felt like my fault, and there was huge shame associated with that.

Hi Marta,
This resonates deep within me. I have been that way in the past. However I am no longer this way. There is some big change occurring deep within me. I don't have words for it yet but I know it is happening.

For me it is connected to self-worth rather than shame. My Nparents instilled in me, by their abusive behavior towards me, that I was not worth anything. When I engage in a relationship I feel the same way because I learned this from my Nparents.  If I am not worth anything then anyone can do anything to me because I am a nothing. I don't exist.


Okay, that is the way I felt for years and now ... something is happening. Again I don't have words for it. I know in my knower. Can't explain it. I tried to talk it out loud which usually works but I don't have words for it. YET.

What it feels like ... when my h comes here every couple of weeks I don't drop everything in my life. I continue doing the things I've been doing. I add him to my life AND I don't subtract anything from my own life. Okay, that's about as far as I can go to explain this phenomenon which is occurring deep within me.

[Marta]

This friend has N traits - as all  my friends do

What?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

What's going on, October? ALL your friends have N traits? No wonder you don't feel like going to social events, no wonder you are in self-imposed exile. When I got rid of my N friends, which was most of my inner circle, my life changed. For the better!

Girl, its time to get out of that N circuit and find some good folks to hang out with who'd love you and appreciate you. Even keys to the White House are simply not worth it.

SF, hey, something is happening!!!!  Hugs, Marta

[October]

This friend has N traits - as all  my friends do

What?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

What's going on, October? ALL your friends have N traits? No wonder you don't feel like going to social events, no wonder you are in self-imposed exile. When I got rid of my N friends, which was most of my inner circle, my life changed. For the better!

I don't know how.  I know that will sound crazy.  I used to have lots and lots of friends, but then I got ill.  The normal ones ran for the hills, and the only ones left are my minister friend, who is sometimes lovely and sometimes really cruel, or B, who has given me her keys, but who does not understand personal boundaries (which to be honest is probably why I have her key), or another B, who is always there for me, but does have a tendency to gap search chances to tell her own story rather than listening to me, or another B, who talks 55 minutes to every 5 of listening.  Or perhaps my next door neighbour, who cuts my grass for me sometimes, but is a controller par excellence.

The problem is, if I get rid of these people, who are essentally good people, but with N traits, I have nobody left but family.  How can I expect only to have normal friends, when I don't even know what normal is?

Why throw away a lifejacket until you have a lifeboat to climb into?  There are no lifeboats in sight - they all rowed away years ago.  The only people left are the Nish ones, who may be weird, but lets face it I am not Mrs Normal.  I am sure I have Ntraits myself, but hopefully not pathological ones.  There are graduations of behaviour in all of us.  I can now spot the most N people, such as my mother, who would most likely qualify as NPD.  Other than that, I think it is difficult to eliminate contact with Nish people altogether.  The best thing to do is to recognise their limitations, and keep within them.  And also be aware of my own needs, and try to meet at least some of them.  And I need to have some people to deal with.

If I went out tomorrow to a social event, and went through the whole room, and chatted to everyone in sight, I can guarantee that the person who ends up swapping phone numbers and being a friend, will be the most Nperson there.  But I can also guarantee they will be the person who has something other than tv soaps to talk about.

I think I am digging myself into a big hole here.   

How can I lose my few friends, and then be totally alone, when I have no process in place for finding new ones who are healthy?  Every time I try therapy to achieve this new healthy life, I get abandoned by the t and thrown back onto - guess who?  Family and Nish friends.  But at least I understand more about who they are, and about who I am.

[Plucky]

Hi October and all with the same issues,
I avoided this thread for some reason. I thought it was not something I could relate to.   I  just thought, she's tired and wants to be alone.  But I realise now it was just too close to home for me.
I'm not close to unravelling my own issues.  I can say however to October that it sounds as if you are in your comfort zone with somewhat N people.   And that you don't feel you deserve and can maintain a relationship with a 'normal' person.  That a normal person would be boring (no drama?). 
You are outing me along with yourself.   I had kind of decided to lie down and give up on having friends.   I realise from reading here that this is not really a healthy response.
Do you think it is ok to feel that you don't deserve a relationship without some kind of major drawback to it?   Do you think that you bring such baggage to your relationships?  Why is that?  I am asking partly because I see it is wrong, and partly because I have the same beliefs myself.  Maybe someone has an answer.
Plucky