Author Topic: Growing up without attachment  (Read 9029 times)

jordanspeeps

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Re: Growing up without attachment
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2005, 08:02:06 PM »
Hey CeeMee and all!

Sure CeeMee I see a lot of you in me, especially in being the one who (intentionally??) goes out to be different from the Group per se.  I express this in my dress and the overall way I present myself. Also, in the real world, I really have to bite my tongue tin order to avoid falling out with people over political debates and when family and co-workers want to participate in game-playing and gossip, the conversation tends to go flat. I hate gossiping about real people and I tend to change the subject to TV or fashion.  I am not interested in debasing or scapegoating and can sometimes be "too honest" when I should be professional or demure or whatever the social situation requires.  But I hate to confront, so if I feel myself getting into mirky waters with my "different" points of view within my familial and social circles, it's my cue to withdraw.  I'm with Portia in saying that writing on this board is as close as I get to other people, apart my from my best friend and husband.  And that others can be really fricking draining. 

With regard to what Portia said:
Quote
It would be a nicer world if we all did get along, but heck, we don’t do it perfectly, and it’s mainly people in groups – not ‘different’ individuals – who seem to me to cause trouble and strife. (Welllll....it's probably 'different' individuals with dictatorial leanings that lead those groups, but that is yet another conversation. 

I support what G. Peck says in "People of the Lie" about an individual's propensity to regress in group scenarios.  Somehow, the more people present, the less responsible we become for our naughty words and actions.  It's the major m. o. of these reality game shows so prolific in the U. S. right now.  It is quite fascinating the way your morals and sense of responsibility shrink when peer pressure or maybe the mere presence of other individuals are on the line. We definitely regress in groups.

And sure, CeeMee, in solving some of the "problems" of your infancy, you may have developed a mechanism to help you cope with the reality of attachment.  Maybe you are ambivalent with regards to it because you could do "with it" and sometimes honestly, "without it."  I've come to accept this about myself recently.  I was even beginning to look at my sweet, doting husband as someone I could live without if I had to.  (We were in the unresolved throes of a serious debate, and I was losing). We're okay now, and I'm glad we know how to argue and resolve and compromise, but for the first time in 8 years, I could see myself being okay with just me and my little pee wee (5 yo).

I can remember years of my life where it looks like I took time off from people and "hunkered down" like a hermit for about a year and then later re-connected and "caught up on" important relationships.  Is that what people do?  I lost contact with all my college friends and now it's time for our ten year reunion.  I wonder if they think I fell of the face of the earth or what?  Anyway, I know I can resonate with people, but the weight of it really causes me anxiety.  I've been a social butterfly before and now, I've locked myself away for the past four years, seeing a very limited amount of people in a typical day.  I'm still not sure where it comes from.  So I can relate to not really wanting to and not really knowing why.  Maybe we are just introverts by nature.

BTW, you know how you get this visual image of someone when you read their posts.  Well, I do, anyway.  I used to see you as someone sturdy on the exterior, who wore dark clothes and short cropped hair, someone who sits in a library surrounded by books, dark, official ones (I apologize if this is exactly how you are, my point won't be as effective if you are), but now, (after that last post,) I see you as this creature of light with long flowing tresses, innocent and youthful and outdoors.   You didn't go on too much about yourself, please share more. I definitely resonate with who you are.

Tif

CeeMee

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Re: Growing up without attachment
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2005, 12:02:50 AM »
Hello all,

Thanks for those replies.  Where to begin???

Tiff, so much of what you say resonates with me.  In fact, because of our discussions, I'm feeling like I am actually getting some clarity on the issue.

The Peck book sounds interesting.  I am going to buy the book and read it next. Thank you for that lead.  Isn't G. Peck the guy who recently passed?


Tiff wrote: "Maybe you are ambivalent with regards to it because you could do "with it" and sometimes honestly, "without it."

"I took time off from people and "hunkered down" like a hermit for about a year and then later re-connected and "caught up on" important relationships. 

Is that what people do?"

You are right on here.  This is probably the crux of my whole issue.  I am not the type of person that fits into a neat little box or diagnosis or pattern.  I am an extrovert who loves meeting new people, but I keep few close friends and I do spend periods as you say "hunkered down." until I feel that urge to have company again.

Something interesting that Miss Piggy introduced to me is the concept of "fear of engulfment"   This is a term I'd not heard before.  When I googled it, I was amazed at how well it described me.   It may be that when the drain of maintaining a relationship becomes too exhausting and the pressure of censoring one's self in order to be accepted becomes to much, one feels engulfed and pulls away.

In answer to your question Portia, I think that I am a little lonely and a little confused.  Just recently, I've had some experiences that have left me questioning my ability or lack thereof to resonate with other women, as two women who were very significant in my life for MANY years, no longer are.  This left me feeling very unsure.  I love hearing your confidence though.  I for one don't think you are crazy or anything like it.  You sound like a woman who is very sure of herself and is not afraid to speak her truth.     

Portia wrote: "I guess it’s finding your own balance between what you are like as a personality and what others will accept."

Yes, that is the key

P.S.  Tif you had me laughing at those descriptions.  I think I like the second one better.  Funny though, I don't get visuals of people through their writings.  I get a really good sense of the personality though.    Visuals only come  to me when I'm in communication over the phone.  Weird stuff hey.

CeeMee

Portia

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Re: Growing up without attachment
« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2005, 09:42:13 AM »
Hi CeeMee
Thanks for the non-crazy vote! Funnily enough, for many years (and I’ve only just realised it) I kind of feared being locked up. I had no reason to fear it but it was there. I think it was transferred from my mother :o. Anyway…

experiences that have left me questioning my ability or lack thereof to resonate with other women, as two women who were very significant in my life for MANY years, no longer are.  This left me feeling very unsure.

What happened with the women? Did the relationships die? How? If you feel unsure, particularly about this, please talk about it. Do you know what happened?

Hopalong

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Re: Growing up without attachment
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2005, 12:57:55 PM »
Hi CeeMee:
I found this pheonomenally mature:
I accept that some of the problems that I face today could be related to my infancy and childhood (in fact I am certain of it) and not all of it is just dna and chemical imbalance.  At the same time, I recognize that this is my problem to solve and blaming her won't get me any closer to solution.  Over the years, as our relationship has improved, I have learned more about my mother's suffering.

Thank you.
I don't think you're nuts (or you either, Portia  :)!).
I am a raging needy extrovert but get poleaxed with loneliness anyway.
Also nonconformist, also contrarian, also have N-spots, definitely.

I have firmly accepted that having N spots does not make me an N.

I have big fat empathy, often. I also get indignant and N-entitled on occasion.
Big whoop.

I'm allowed to be: an innie or an outie, E or I, lonely and avoidant.
Mistakes are fine. Feeling in or out or connected or misfitting is fine.

I think saying out loud that you're lonely is one of the bravest and most nonconformist things a person can do.
Because almost everybody in "groups" is carrying around chunks of loneliness as well.

That's what keeps me mostly okay in groups (aside from aggressive creepy violent things, of course)...but just normal group settings. I get a little panicky and then, when I remember, start thinking with compassion about whatever this apparently conventional, annoyingly narrowminded person is carrying. I still like to counter racist assumptions, etc...but I don't do it out of moral superiority any more.

(Boy did I hate giving THAT up.)
Hopalong
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

CeeMee

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Re: Growing up without attachment
« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2005, 10:59:03 PM »
Hi Hopalong,

Hopalong wrote:  "That's what keeps me mostly okay in groups (aside from aggressive creepy violent things, of course)...but just normal group settings. I get a little panicky and then, when I remember, start thinking with compassion about whatever this apparently conventional, annoyingly narrowminded person is carrying. I still like to counter racist assumptions, etc...but I don't do it out of moral superiority any more."


Yes,  I've come a long way in that department too.  There was a time when I would become very upset about racist comments.  To be honest, now, I may or may not comment on the remark depending on the person and the circumstances.  I have found that some really good and decent people have archaic ideas and habits and if you challenge them, they will usually recognize the bias in their comment and retract it in some fashion.  I've learned not to judge them or write them off as the "enemy" (I'm a person of color by the way).  It is true what you say, shifting one's perspective to see the person with compassion can be very effective in diffusing my negative emotions.  Strangely enough, I don't always handle all issues this same way.  I am super sensitive when someone makes negative comments about gays, lesbians, bi-sexuals and transgendered people.   Often times they are the ones feeling morally superior and believe that  anyone who is GLBT, or who advocates for the rights of GLBT is immoral.   Because of this pattern, I find myself being more vocal and challenging in those  groups.

CeeMee


Hopalong

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Re: Growing up without attachment
« Reply #20 on: November 24, 2005, 06:23:34 AM »
CeeMee,
Boy, would we UUs love to get ahold of you.
(Unitarian Universalists). We just went through a whole curriculum to ensure and officially state that we're a "Welcoming Congregation" to GBLT folks. We hung a banner that says, This Church Supports Marriage Rights. Somebody ripped the banner down so we put up another one.

Just got a bunch of new members, too. Funny how that worked!
 :D

Hopalong
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Sallying Forth

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Re: Growing up without attachment
« Reply #21 on: November 24, 2005, 09:11:12 PM »
I know that my mother massaged all of us as babies.  We have good muscle tone, which I thought was a result to that, and we all like touch, but it's funny to think it may have also had a positive effect our our self concept.  It makes sense, I guess.

Interesting. My mother hardly ever touched me. She didn't even recognize I had a birth defect until I was 6 months old! It was a major defect which affected my being able to get adequate breast milk and caused me to lose considerable weight. Yet she didn't notice.

And I have a definite problem with touch. Not only that I have a very, very, did I say very, sensitive body. I can't handle deep pressure when getting a massage. It's been that way forever.

And it wasn't just my mother doing neglectful things to me. My bioNfather and his coherts also helped contribute to this. This type of information in that book was used in experiments on me and others who were abused like me. I survived a lot because I became multiple. So maybe that is how I remained safe and healthy? Don't know. Many children abused like this didn't even survive. Survivors were those who could dissociate.
The truth is in me.[/color]

I'm Sallying Forth on a new adventure! :D :D :D

CeeMee

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Re: Growing up without attachment
« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2005, 10:45:36 PM »
Yes, I am familiar with the UU.  I went to one or two of their meetings.  It was in a small conference room with about twenty people and we prayed and talked as an intimate group.  It was all very nice.  Perhaps I should see if they are still around.  The church was lacking in funds and didn't really have a regular meeting place. 

That's wonderful that this church is willing to stand up for its beliefs.  Most wouldn't.  There are so many crackpots out there who would use violence to silence a minority voice.  It'd be enough to scare most people from taking a stand.  I can't tell you how many times my husband has had to remind me to think about the family before taking a stand or putting myself out their in support of certain rights. 

One person I always admired immensely was Mother Theresa.  She didn't just pick any group to help, she picked the sickest of the sick and the poorest of the poor, who were at deaths door.  Now tell me, who else would give a hoot about these folks.  NO ONE!  Most people would think, they're gonners anyway, why waste any time or money on them.  She said, because nobody else would want to help these people, I will.  That story  touched my heart long ago and I have since had a calling to help and fight for the most marginalized of the marginalized.  I have had a soft spot in my heart and feel a connectedness with them.  I am particularly sensitive to transgendered people (even before the media started to talk about the issue).

It is heartbreaking how badly they are treated.  Even in the jails, they are treated worse than the most heinous criminals.  Even some gays and lesbians have their bias against trannys.  And so, there have been times when I have stood up for what I believe in and have had to deal with the resulting prejudice and bias.

I Imagine a world one day where love will transcend all of our differences and enable us to see the person inside and be focused on the best parts within.

CeeMee

Hopalong

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Re: Growing up without attachment
« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2005, 11:31:29 PM »
I Imagine a world one day where love will transcend all of our differences and enable us to see the person inside and be focused on the best parts within.

Hear, hear...I hear you!

UU principle #1: "The inherent worth and dignity of every person."

www.uua.org for a nearby US congregation (Find a Congregation under QuickLinks)...or for Europe:
http://bob.swe.uni-linz.ac.at/euu/

We don't proselytise much...it's just a happy enthusiasm of mine, I was so relieved to find that community.
But I find good things in other churches too whether I share all the dogma or not. Quaker was an early influence too...boy do those folks walk their talk. I lack that bravery.

But I admire yours!

Hopalong

"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

pluckyguest

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Re: Growing up without attachment
« Reply #24 on: December 03, 2005, 12:36:31 AM »
CeeMee,
I really admire Mother Theresa too.  I was a bit miffed when Princess Di was chosen as person of the year over her by some mag!
I'm thinking seriously now about how to be more like MT.   The whole quest for self enrichment and sense of entitlement is getting old.
Plucky

CeeMee

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Re: Growing up without attachment
« Reply #25 on: December 03, 2005, 03:29:59 AM »
Hi Plucky,

Mother Theresa slept on the floor for years on nothing more than a mat.  She lived a very simple life which gave her an appreciation for the conditions that the people around her were living in.  How many activists would be willing to do such a thing?  I had a real hard time watching all the celebrities on TV getting free media coverage for all their good works helping Katrina victims.  It seems there are fewer philanthropists who give freely and anonymously anymore. 

I must say that I did love Princess Di too though.  In fact, I cried when she died.  For some reason, I felt that woman's pain at the hands of that N husband of hers.  Talk about unfeeling. 

Princess Di  went to the side of AIDS victims and held there hands while others were still afraid to be int he same room with them.  I think she felt marginalized and, therefore, felt a real connection with other marginalized people throughout the world.

What ideas are you considering to be more like Mother T.?  I was just thinking these last few days that I should get involved in some volunteer work again.  I'm actually considering working with victims of and building awareness of AIDS  afflicting women in the African American community.  I just heard on the radio yesterday that AIDS amongst African American women is growing while the numbers in the gay community are dropping.  With the numbers dropping in the gay community, the activism from that segment will (and probably has) drop(ped).  So who will take up the cause for African American women with AIDS?  That sounds like a Mother Theresa cause if I ever heard one :)

CeeMee




Sela as guest

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Re: Growing up without attachment
« Reply #26 on: December 03, 2005, 11:49:27 AM »
I met Mother Theresa once, when I was a little girl...about 8 or 9 years old.

She was amazing!  She was a tiny little lady full of spunk and vinegar!!  Very, very energetic and a powerful speaker (not loud but clear, interesting and able to reach her audience so well)!!  She seemed so......joyful......is the best word I can think of and her spirit was...... contagious

She came to our church to speak in the church hall to the students of our and other schools about the poor people of Bangladesh (sorry if I spelled that wrong).  I remember her eyes had this ......spark...in them.  I remember there was a kind of......sizzling heat...that came off her hands, when she shook mine and covered it with her other hand (I know that sounds totally weird but that's what I remember....feeling this heat and being surprised and confused by it?? :?).  She shook hands with many of the students.  That act alone made me feel.....like a person...not just a kid.   I thought:  "This is a special nun" but I really had no idea of why.  She wasn't very well known then, I think.

A big thing she did that day was she instilled me with hope.  The way she described the living conditions of those poor people she was trying to help, while at the same time, she talked about their qualities and similarities and wonders as people, was very moving.   She made it known that we are all the same and we are all loved and can easily share love.  She certainly generated action from us kids.  We worked very hard (the kids at school) after that to raise as much money as we could to help.  I remember she even sent us a "thankyou" note too.  That was a big deal.  Who ever thanked a bunch of kids back then?

Good for you CeeMee for considering such an important cause and I think you're right about it being a cause she may have embraced.  She picked the most hopeless place on earth to spread hope and she did a marvelous job.  It's such a simple thing....hope....and it can change lives.

 :D Sela

HopefulSoul

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Re: Growing up without attachment
« Reply #27 on: December 12, 2005, 11:16:48 AM »
Hello Everyone,

I'm new to this message board.  I am very happy to have found it.  Both of my parents are narcissists.  I know this for many reasons, but the most important one is because they both completely lack the ability for empathy.  I have spent the last 5 years of my life trying to recover from all of the damage they caused.  Barely anyone in my life knows about my pain/suffering because I don't like/want to share it with others and because I don't have too many friends.  But I feel very alone/lonely because of my past.  I'm writing on this message board because I want to share my experiences and connect with others who have had to endure a similar fate.

In terms of growing up without attachments, in my case, I know that my mother was neglectful of me.  I know this because of other people's accounts of my childhood.  My grandmother, who lived near my family until I was 2, told me that as a baby I was very dirty and that my mother rarely washed me.  I've also been told by several relatives that my mother would leave me on a baby toilet (I don't know what they are called), naked in front of the TV for hours on end and that this happened regularly.  When my mother recounts it, she thinks it really cute.  I think it's absolutely horrible.  There are more stories, but the crux of it is that my mother was way, way too involved in herself to care adequately for me.

How has that affected me?  Well, I feel like every couple of months I come to understand the depths of my parent's damage at a more profound level.  At a deep, emotional  level, I have a good idea of what I lost in having a narcissistic mother.  I can't put it into words, but my mind and heart constantly search for those maternal feelings.  I didn't realize these strong longings until I entered therapy.  I had a great relationship with my therapist (female) for a few years until I began to want her to be my mother!  I mean, I actually asked her to be my mother!!  In my mind, she was an opportunity to get what I had never received: attention, affection, empathy, kindness, caring, structure...the list goes on.  Well, now I understand I was acting narcisistically by objectifying her in an attempt to get what I so desperately never had.  Even though I know this now at an intellectual level, however, I still succumb to the hope of turning her into my mother at times.  This longing for a mother (as well as a father) has deeply effected my ability to form fulfilling and meaningful relationships (among a myriad of other issues). 

After five years, I am beginning to get better.  I am still often filled by sadness when I try new activity, but this is much better than a few years ago when I never went out except for work....New situations force me to realize just how much I've lost...Yesterday I went to a orchestral performance by myself and I sat behind a young couple in their early 20's.  I don't know what was going on in that couple's interaction, but I began to imagine all of the 20 something's that have made lasting connections with other people at that age...who have a completely different perspective on life than myself...For people from healthy families, the world is so much easier to comprehend emotionally and psychologically.  I mean, when I meet someone new, somewhere in the back of my mind alway lingers a fear that this new person will invade my emotional and psychological space, will cross and violate every boundary, will put me down and make me feel powerless, helpless.  Someone who hasn't experienced a childhood like mine doesn't have to deal with this reality, doesn't have to deal with this possibility. 

In the above situations, my sadness, unfortunately, often comes out as anger directed mostly at the few people in my life that care about me.   

I could go on because I have so many other thoughts, but I'll stop here for now.  I look forward to reading your posts and sharing with all of you.

Thanks for reading.

Healing&Hopeful

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Re: Growing up without attachment
« Reply #28 on: December 12, 2005, 11:30:37 AM »
Hello Hopefulsoul

Love your name... and Welcome to the board.

I was so sorry to hear your story and how your mother treated you, but I was also glad to hear that you have a fabulous therapist and you are in the process of healing.

After your childhood, it is normal to long for a mother figure to give you what you never had.  Personally I believe we have a lot of power in ourselves, and I feel you can become the mother you crave and parent your inner child.

I also relate to the misplaced anger... where you take it out on your friends and then feel bad.  There are other ways of getting rid of anger, like screaming your head off in the car, or boxing, or singing really loudly to music.  Some people like sport, and loudly cheer their team... you will know what will help you.

Keep posting and look forward to hearing from you again.

Take care

H&H xx
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To let u know, life ain't so bad
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miss piggy

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Re: Growing up without attachment
« Reply #29 on: December 12, 2005, 11:57:08 AM »
Hello HopefulSoul,

Welcome to the board.  Very glad you found us!

Yes, I think that although many people are capable of empathy, it is still difficult for some to even imagine how our parents' treatment of us could affect a person, much less even happen.  You know the old saying, walk a mile in someone else's shoes...well, you came to the right board because we have walked in your shoes.

Boy, I really relate to that feeling of resisting becoming too close to anyone else because I don't want to become their "object" to use, to have to follow their rules for my life or else they will put me down.  I don't want to be anyone's minion (anymore).

I also know what you mean about that longing to have someone else's life.  Like, wow, they had parents who loved and encouraged them and hmm, actually cared about what happened to them and how they were doing in an appropriate way.  Who gave them positive and life-affirming attention and nurturing.  It may or may not be true of those people I'm observing, but that is what I am thinking and longing for.  (My father gets jealous of babies held by their mothers...what does THAT tell you?  :shock:

Perhaps we have lost much, but maybe (?) we can appreciate it more when we find it.  I'm so glad that you have the capacity to recognize and appreciate nurturing where you find it and know that that is what healthy parenting looks like (as in your experiences with your therapist).  Hold that in your heart.  It's precious.

Again, welcome, MP