Growing up without attachment

[CeeMee]

Some of the effects of growing up without llimbic resonance and regulation (attachment and synchronization) are isolation, emotional damage, unpredictable violence,  and the like.  This is taken from the book General Theory of Love and based on studies done on monkeys but is true of humans to some degree. 

I suspect that another symptom is an inability for some victims to later resonate and regulate with others.

(How insidious!  Lacking developmental attachment and synchronization could possibly create a  permanent disability since being able to resonate and synchronize with another is the first step towards recovery.)

My curiosity  is this.......What would this particular disability (the inability to attach and synchronize with another)  look like in terms of day to day behaviors?

What are some other behaviors you might see as a result of one growing up without the requisite attachment and synchronization with another?

The reason I bring this up is that although I don't believe that I was deprived of limbic R&R growing up, I believe I have a hard time attaching and synchronizing with others, almost an outright resistance.  I'd describe myself as a non-conformist, radical thinking, lone ranger who frequently (though not always) finds herself up against the world. 

I see myself as "different" but wonder if in the context of the questions above, is this what those behaviors might look like?

I welcome everyone's thoughts or opinions on this.

CeeMee

[miss piggy]

Hi Ceemee,

Since I'm shooting a lot from the hip these days on the board, I'll keep going! 

I don't know what some of the terms mean that you refer to.  (OK, there's your first warning signal about this post!)  But if what the author is referring to is some kind of "attachment disorder" as a result of the lack of whatever developmental need not being filled, then I can tell you what I have observed from three different cases in our community.

One child is an eastern european orphan who was put in one of those warehouse type orphanages as a baby.  She was adopted at age three.  She basically survived because she screamed her head off until an adult in charge would come pay attention to her.  Many other babies died due to "failure to thrive".  They were not held at all.  They may have been fed, but not a lot.  I marvel at this little girl's strength.  She is ADHD and has a rea; deficit of social skills.  She is constantly in survival mode.  In the classroom, as in the warehouse, she must monopolize the adult (the teacher in this case) or she feels she will die.  She does not do well in groups.  Everything is a competitive situation.  Very primal.  She has come a long way, but still lacks social skills.  She will create chaos to draw attention to herself.  She has to. 

Next case.  A young boy whose mother was mentally ill and committed suicide.  Father is quite emotionally and verbally and possibly physically abusive.  This boy has no boundaries and does not recognize other people's boundaries at all.  Wanders.  Goes into people's stuff.  Doesn't look people in the eye.  Doesn't track to the daily schedule.  This boy was not nurtured at all.  Very bright and artistic too.  Turned hostile in adolescence because the other kids shunned him. 

Next case.  Adopted boy of drug abusing mother who sells her babies.  He was not held in the early months.  Very clinging as a baby.  Very very oppositional as a young boy and esp. with women.  Very aggressive.  Did not want to go to school where they have rules and expectations. 

Maybe this isn't not what the authors are referring to.  But the kids above have a real different lens to look through when viewing the "others" in their environment.  I think it goes beyond the range of normal struggles of relating.  The two orphans are, in my amateur mind, candidates for "attachment disorder" diagnosis.  Others on the board might have more to say on this.



And I'm wondering if what you are describing in yourself is "fear of engulfment".  I am not a joiner and when I feel pulled into a group, I like it initially, then feel like I'm drowning in expectations and conformity.  I didn't know what this was called until recently and googled it.  It was eye-opening. 

Well, again, I'm not an expert or anything.  I hope this helps a little.  MP

[Brigid]

Ceemee,
When I was reading your post, before I saw MP's, I was thinking the same thing regarding the many children who were warehoused into orphanages in the (at that time) "Iron Curtain Countries."  I remember 20/20 doing a number of stories regarding the very tragic situation of these children in, I think, Bosnia??  So many of them were suffering from the inability to attach to another human because they had not been held and nurtured as infants and toddlers.  I believe the prognosis is very poor that they will ever be able to relate to other humans.  They have no emotions, feelings, conscience, boundaries, or sense of right and wrong, and would be more akin to animals acting out of instinct rather than humans who know they are part of a community and act accordingly.

Every time I watched those stories on 20/20, it broke my heart and I could not imagine what kind of monster could have made such a decision to do this to children.

Brigid

[Sela]

There was a story on W5 this past Sat. eve about the 100,000 orphans in the Ukraine and the awful conditions of the "warehouses"  (they didn't use that word but it sure fits)....mostly focussing on a woman who adopted a child and went on to try to help some of the other children by starting a summer camp.

They also talked about the kids...once they turn 18 and how they are just put out into society and left to survive, without any assistance.  Most of them end up in jail or in prostitution very soon afterward.

Again....this seems to proove the point......no attachment to anyone.....no empathy.....no problem committing crimes......no self worth.....nothing to keep a person from selling their own body.....(no one to turn to for help anyway).

They touched on the issue of abuse, asking some of those in prison how many of them had been "hit"  as children.  Lot's of hands raised.

It's so sad.

The good news is.....their new Prime Minister seems to think he will be able to "solve the problem within three years".  This might not happen but it does give hope that at least he is concerned and wants to see changes that might improve the lives of these children.  I hope so.  I don't know how the problem of growing up without attachment will ever be solved though.   or how abuse in institutions will ever cease.

  Sela

[Healing&Hopeful]

Although I don't have any real imput to this thread... I just wanted to say that I find it heartwrenching, gutwrenching even how so many children this happens to.

I did read "A Road Less Travelled" and he says that massaging a new born baby's back is one of the best things you can do for their self esteme.

[Gail]

I used to work with children with varying types of developmental disabilities and have watched that movie about the effect of lack of "mothering" on baby monkeys.  It was very sad, as the movie showed the monkeys as very aggressive, agitated adults.  Unfortunately, sometimes, along with emotional problems, there are problems with processing sensory information.  As infants, humans (and monkeys) organize their nervous system in response to stimulation.  If the proper kind of stimulation is lacking, it can really hurt the developing brain.

Sometimes adoptive parents find this to be a real problem with their children, especially if sensory deprivation was extreme.  These kids often have attachment disorders and also sensory processing problems.  They may be hypersensitive to different forms of touch and textures.  They may have balance problems and problems with coordinated movement and, of course, academic problems.

Early treatment is important. 

None of us probably suffered from the extreme sensory deprivation that warehoused children do.  However, certainly maltreatment of an infant and young child causes problems.  Some people are able to overcome that, though, especially if they are determined to achieve emotional health.  I have friends who really endured horrid physical and emotional abuse, and went on to become mature stable adults.  Why some people can and some can't probably depends on a multitude of factors.

Gail

[mum]

Interesting stuff, here.
I see a lot of children in my work. (um, pretty much all I see). Some of my most challenging students are ones whose parents are inattentive....they are wealthy and buy them everything, but they never spend any time with them.  I wonder if that started immediately at birth?

I know that my mother massaged all of us as babies.  We have good muscle tone, which I thought was a result to that, and we all like touch, but it's funny to think it may have also had a positive effect our our self concept.  It makes sense, I guess.

As a mom, too, I cringe to think of infants even minutely ignored, never mind forgotten entirely.

I had a student who was one of those warehoused orphans, from Russia, I believe. She was animal like in many of her behavoirs...but she improved. She had been kept in a crib until she was 5 or 6.  This girl improved over a few years with lots of attention from her  adoptive parents.  I have no idea how she is now, as they moved, but I like to think she kept improving, but she may have hit a plateau, of course, like that girl in the 60's they found in L.A. who had been kept in a cage.
Anyway, this Russian girl was "adoptable". What happens to the ones that people don't rescue?

I also have 2 students (now siblings) who were crib mates (2 years apart, not related) in such an orphange. They both have learning disabilities but those are not severe, and a pheonominal mom who really is an angel for them.

I worried myself, with my son, when he was born and the hospital staff kept him away from me soon after birth because his "temperature dropped". He was only gone less than a few hours but I was tormented....and terribly worried that we would not bond because of this... Of course, I have perspective now, but I wonder about those babies who have no one to be missing them and so in love with them....

I wonder what degree of early attachment matters when talking about later social behavoirs??  My many siblings all demonstrate varying degrees of sociability and compliance with authority, etc....and we all had the same parents, albeit at different stages in their lives.  I wonder how much of it is just "who we are" as spirits/souls? Why do some of these kids in these human warehouses scream for survival and others give up and die?

[Brigid]

I think my brother and I are great examples of how differently two people can react to the same degree of love and attention from parents (nearly non-existent).  I am someone who always sought out touch from others--not always in an appropriate way as a teenager--but I longed to be hugged and kissed.  I realize now that I'm in a very loving relationship, how devoid my marriage was of touch and how much I missed it.  I'm sure I made up for some of that by hugging and holding my children as much as possible.

My brother, on the other hand, has, to my knowledge, only had one significant relationship in his life and that was 35 years ago.  The only attachment he has is to his animals.  He has never cared about me or my children and only paid attention to our parents when they became infirm and needed medical intervention.  He has no friends and does not socialize at all except in work related situations (for most of his career he worked in IT, so didn't have many social opportunities for work).

I could not imagine living as he does.  I would shrivel up and die without the human connections in my life.

Brigid

[Healing&Hopeful]

Hi Brigid

In some ways it sounds the same as me and my brother, but this is not a good example because the difference is that for the first year of my life I was with Mum and my bio dad and for the first year of his life he was with Mum and his bio dad.  My brother also works in IT, has no friends, does not socialize and the same as you, I could not imagine living as he does.  Mum and me were talking earlier this year, and she asked "How do you get confidence".... I said by going out and doing things, but it's also them that need to let him go out and do things, let him make friends, let him have a life.

I think a good example is my bio dad and his sister.  Now I don't know his sister very well, however after my granddad's funeral, we wrote for a couple of years until it petered off.  She was the complete opposite of him, very warm, very kind and I got the impression that she was a nice person.  She was married and had 2 children.  She worked hard and seemed to make the most of her life.  Bio dad goes round gruding, blaming etc all the time, divorced, doesn't work etc.  Their background is very sad, their Mum was schizophrenic and their Dad an alcoholic.  Bio dad says that when he was in his teens his Mum got taken into hospital but I have no idea how much of what he says is true.

Funnily enough my bio dad asked me pretty much the same question towards the end of last year.  "Why is my sister not the same as me then, if it's down to not being nurtured as a child."  I feel it's the strength in ourselves and we learn different coping mechanisms to take us through life.  My bio dad didn't take responsibility and learnt to blame, whereas his sister did take responsibility and changed her direction.  I think sometimes we can look at a situation from a young age and decide that it's not what we want.

H&H xx

[miss piggy]

Hello all,

Well, I guess temperament plays a role in how we respond to our environment and early parenting.  Some parents do everything "right" and the child still has problems and vice versa.  Human beings are so complicated!

I think many people, esp. abused people who only experience hurt and disappointment, find so much solace in love for animals.  I am encouraged that Brigid's brother gave his care and attention to animals (I'm assuming he treats them well???).  Lots of other kids take out their anger on animals.  So I see a sign of hope in a discouraging situation if a person is able to feel value and unconditional love from their animal companions.  It's their way out of the hurt and into a safer world.

There's a wonderful article in Chicken Soup for the Teenaged Soul about a kid who was so isolated by his peers he would sneak into the local Seaworld or something like that to visit with dolphins.  His whole career grew out of his connection with those dolphins and he became very knowledgable.  Other dolphin people (for lack of a better term) recognized his unusual connection with distressed dolphins during rescues, etc.  As an adult he returned to speak to small groups of troubled kids about his experiences and let them pet the dolphins.  A true story that is pretty cool. 

Oops, I think I may have gone off topic again, but the recent posts brought this to mind and I wanted to share.  Hugs, MP

[Brigid]

MP,

 

I am encouraged that Brigid's brother gave his care and attention to animals (I'm assuming he treats them well???).

Yes, absolutely.  Our extreme love of animals was probably the only thing we ever had in common.  He volunteered at the Humane Society in his area for many years and fostered kittens as well.  Since his  dog died at age 16 last year, however, he has not replaced her and is no longer attached to anything that I am aware of.  How does someone thrive in that environment?  I can't imagine.

Brigid

[CeeMee]

Thanks for all those thoughts.  Yes, the studies and experiences with orphans are heartbreaking.  IMO how one responds is very much determined by dna.  Some of us are closer to the fight response and some of us closer to the flight response.  I've always been closer to the fight response even though I may have been scared ****less inside. 

Miss Piggy, thanks for that lead on "fear of engulfment"   I am fascinated by the term and will go google it right now.

CeeMee

[jordanspeeps]

Hey CeeMee,

The reason I bring this up is that although I don't believe that I was deprived of limbic R&R growing up, I believe I have a hard time attaching and synchronizing with others, almost an outright resistance.  I'd describe myself as a non-conformist, radical thinking, lone ranger who frequently (though not always) finds herself up against the world. 

I see myself as "different" but wonder if in the context of the questions above, is this what those behaviors might look like?

You are fascinating to me.  I can sense in your posts that you are analytical and radical thinking.  I love that about you!  If you don't mind my asking, are you particularly conflicted about being "different?"  Why do you think you are so "resistant?"  Is it possible your non-conformity and lone ranger view of yourself is somehow shaped by what your parents think of you?   I don't know much of your background, but I recall a past post expressing concern that you might be an N.  Could you share the source of your doubt?  I'm intrigued by you.  I relate to you as well.  I think I get where you're coming from with your line of questioning and your method of research.  Maybe by gaining an understanding of you, I may gain more insight about myself.

With regards to your thread question, I've examined those monkey studies in various psyche courses in college but it is the insidious nature of the abuse that concerns me the most.  Not always are babies completely abandoned, physically abused, starved, alarmed, etc.  Sometimes that insidious abuse is manifested in ways that a typical health practitioner may not recognize.  The mother who "over-Faberizes" (a hot topic today) her baby, letting it cry indefinitely and into a uncontrolled frenzy.  On the opposite end of the spectrum, there's the mother who overmedicates her child in an attempt to keep others from knowing what a neglecting parent she is, drugging the baby into silence and sleep.  It's insidious because you see the sleeping baby and you have no idea that the mother isn't attentive or caring, instead selfish and pretentious, wanting others to believe things are okay, when she's hardly deals with/soothes the child at all.  It's abusive, but difficult to detect. But I would imagine the damaging effects are similar.  It's about intention.

Tif

[CeeMee]

Hi Tif,

Thanks for those words.  I am really heartened by the fact that you feel you can relate to some of what I say.  That makes me feel less alone in this world. 

Well, your post has really got me thinking.  OH MY GOSH... my eyes nearly dropped out of their sockets when I googled and read up on "ferberizing"

I nearly blew a gasket!  Warning.........I am about to have an emotional moment folks..turn your eyes if you are sensitive.

That is the sickest crock of sh... I have ever heard.  The guy should be hung by his b... and left screaming and crying for  twenty minute intervals and given the requisite pat on the back till he shuts his fu..  ing mouth.

There.. got that out of my system.  I'm sorry but I had to vent.  What I read was so upsetting.  For those of you who  do ferberize your babies, please understand this is not a personal attack.  My issue is with the idiot so called professional who came up with this crap to make a name for himself.

Needless to say, I totally disagree.  My children slept in our family bed and were breastfed on demand till they were ready to stop and move to their own bed, and those two factors are what I credit MOST (aside from their great father) for my children being bright, loving, caring and well adjusted (despite their crazy mother).

But this thread got me wondering even further.  When you wrote about a mother's  inattentiveness in regards to her infant, I thought, how would one know if this happened to him/her  as an infant?  Unless a family member  witnessed  it and told the adult later in life that his/her mother wasn't the best caretaker during those precious years, it could remain a part of the unknowns that ultimately shapes us.

Now if I were to guess about my own infancy, I would say that my mother probably did give me the best care that she could raising 6 children born roughly a year plus apart.  Could there have been inattentiveness?  Certainly.  When I think of the huge effort involved in raising my own 2 children, I imagine that it must have been VERY difficult for my mom with 6, coupled with the fact that she had significant emotional problems throughout.

Don't get me wrong, I am not blaming my mom.  I accept that some of the problems that I face today could be related to my infancy and childhood (in fact I am certain of it) and not all of it is just dna and chemical imbalance.  At the same time, I recognize that this is my problem to solve and blaming her won't get me any closer to solution.  Over the years, as our relationship has improved, I have learned more about my mother's suffering.  Things she is not proud to admit but does so to take responsibility.  She continues to pay the price as my siblings have all had strained relations with her on and off for some time. 

I'm still digesting all of this, so I am not sure what else to think about it, but I do think you bring up a very interesting point and one that I hadn't thought about.

In answer to some of your other questions, Tif, I think that I am conflicted at times but not about being different, but rather the condition of lonliness at being different.  In my community, my differentness keeps me apart from the christians because with me, every conversation doesn't lead to a religious discussion or affirmation or bible quote.  At work, my differentness keeps me apart from those who love the politics and game playing that I detest and am not very good at.  I don't have a crowd that I go to lunch with to share gossip to know what is going on in the organization, so I'm usually the last to know anything.   My radicalness will often lead me to say things that I shouldn't.  I've countered negative comments at work regarding minority groups or challenged biases only to be met by shocked silence, awkwardness and a reluctance for those folks to be comfortable around me in the future.

I could go on and on.  Sometimes, in a sick Freudian way, I think I purposely do these things to push people away from me.  It's almost as if I hone right in on those differences between us and highlight them to be sure that we don't resonate.  One might say, but these sound like "good"  or "acceptable"  differences, but in the real world, they cause one to be marginalized.  In my experience, VERY few people in the world would risk the possibility of being odd man out, even if it meant, standing up for what you believe.  It is so much easier to rationalize and move with the crowd for all the benefits, resonance and peace of mind it brings.

At one point, I thought that I did have NPD but after learning more about it I am not sure.  If NPd is as heartless as described here and other sites, then that's not me.  I have great empathy for others and have less frequent bouts with self-centeredness (althoug this post wouldn't indicate that) as I've dealt with my anxieties and insecurities over the years with meds and therapy.

One thing that I am exploring further, is the possibility that it may be that I have some form of boderline personality disorder which keeps me isolated.

Does any of this resonate with you Tif?


CeeMee

[Portia]

CeeMee: I wrote the following in a personal message to a friend. I’ll dump it here unedited to see if you think I’m crazy, an N, borderline, sociopath, schizotypal (sp?) or perhaps just someone who enjoys being an introvert with a brain. I was writing about the practice of social scapegoating:

“They’re stupid, frightened, guilty themselves, protecting their images of their own parents, grouping together in mutual fear. I HATE group mentality. I pretty much hate groups actually. I won’t join. Any. None! Not even dancing. Not any more. Everywhere I go I see people as conscious animals with little or no consciousness about why they do what they do. I don’t hate them. But I don’t like being with them and luckily for me, I don’t feel any need to be liked or with people. Deep introvert! I really am happy by myself or with H. Or with a handful of people I like. I don’t give a flying fig about what people think as long as they leave me alone.”

Writing on this board is as close as I get to other people, apart from that handful. And is there something ‘wrong’ with me? I don’t think so. Who said I have to resonate with others? I find most ‘others’ totally draining. I understand that extroverts are apparently in the majority (though goodness knows how anyone decided that) and introverts have to adapt to an extrovert society to function (to work, get food etc). It doesn’t mean that introverts are mad, bad or wrong though. It does mean that sometimes when I speak my mind, like now, that others will go silent on me, simply because they don’t understand and feel threatened. Is that my problem? Maybe. If I want to ‘fit in’ (and sometimes it does seem – *seem*, mind you – necessary), if I want to conform and be accepted then maybe I should keep my big mouth shut. I guess it’s finding your own balance between what you are like as a personality and what others will accept. Lucky for me I don’t live in an area where any kind of religion dominates. Not sure I could cope with that without becoming labelled a heretic, witch, infidel, unbeliever, mad, bad, wrong etc etc. Labels/words – can be useful to identify stuff about ourselves (e.g. introvert has become valuable to me) and they can also be incredibly dangerous. The DSM must be one good example of that. What's the objective of the DSM? That's a good conversation.

CeeMee, are you lonely because you crave others’ company? Are you lonely? Or are you confused about having different values and beliefs to those around you? It would be a nicer world if we all did get along, but heck, we don’t do it perfectly, and it’s mainly people in groups – not ‘different’ individuals – who seem to me to cause trouble and strife. (Welllll....it's probably 'different' individuals with dictatorial leanings that lead those groups, but that is yet another conversation.)