Growing up without attachment

[Plucky]

Hi CeeMee and everyone,
I realise I didn't read your response to me about Mother Theresa.  I couldn't remember what thread it was. 

The AIDS sounds like a worthy issue.  The one that speaks to me is hunger.  (As a child I went hungry because no one could be bothered to see that I ate.  Our family was not poor.  At least not in financial terms.)

I cannot forget the fact that children are living on the streets and hungry.  I have volunteered and donated but I want to find something ongoing and less band-aiddy to do about it.  I want to feed the world.  It is a crime that so many go hungry. 

I want to adopt all the orphans.  I want to give love to all the babies.

I want to simplify my life so that I am not contributing to the problem.  I want to walkaround wearing something that was produced without use of slave or exploitive labor or causing pollution or use fo nonrenewable resources.   I want to eat pure food that did not cause suffering to any creature.  I want to mend the earth with my actions, and do no harm to it.   

Plucky

[Portia]

Hello and welcome Hopeful Soul

CeeMee, just a quick word to say I want to welcome HS here but don’t want to hijack your thread either so…….I’ll type here and maybe you’ll return to it too? Sharing stories often helps me when I try and understand others.

Hopeful Soul:
When my mother recounts it, she thinks it really cute.  I think it's absolutely horrible.

Anyone with an ounce of compassion would think that what she did was truly awful. I understand the ‘really cute’ though. My mother has made similar comments. Sick huh? Yes of course it’s sick. People without empathy are sick - but you sound pretty healthy by comparison. It’s not fair though is it? Why can’t we be like that too and not care about other people? (but no, I wouldn’t want to be them really.)

I had a great relationship with my therapist (female) for a few years until I began to want her to be my mother!  I mean, I actually asked her to be my mother!!

Until? This is pretty normal for what happens in therapy I believe. Therapists help by almost becoming the parents we need to be emotional with.

Well, now I understand I was acting narcisistically by objectifying her in an attempt to get what I so desperately never had.
As a therapist she should hopefully be equipped to deal with your emotions. Narcissism in babies is an essential stage of development. Not something in therapy to be worried about or avoided. Therapy can take you through the developmental stages you missed out on. It’s all okay.

For people from healthy families, the world is so much easier to comprehend emotionally and psychologically.  I mean, when I meet someone new, somewhere in the back of my mind alway lingers a fear that this new person will invade my emotional and psychological space, will cross and violate every boundary, will put me down and make me feel powerless, helpless.  Someone who hasn't experienced a childhood like mine doesn't have to deal with this reality, doesn't have to deal with this possibility.

It’s not fair is it? I currently grapple with resentment and bitterness about things I never had, living with an emotional disability, having to fight with myself. And it isn’t fair, that’s just how it is. Life isn’t fair, it’s all chance and uncertainty.

my sadness, unfortunately, often comes out as anger directed mostly at the few people in my life that care about me.   

We can cycle repeatedly between anger and sadness but do you find that with each real burst of anger, the feeling is slightly lessened and it doesn’t last as long?

Are you still seeing the therapist? Have you talked about your anger with her? Have you tried to get angry with her?

How about a new thread with all your answers? You can copy and paste any of my post if you wish.


Plucky!
I don’t know what to do! I want to get a new type of job, one that helps, one that makes me feel as though I’m achieving something real instead of just paying the bills. I don’t want to harm the world. But I honestly think that one of the big answers to human poverty and suffering is stop having so many children. And then I think, what can I do and do I actually like people enough to help? We keep repeating the same old stupid patterns. Then other days I think, what the heck, this is all there is, better make something of it.

I want to adopt all the orphans.  I want to give love to all the babies.

Hallelujah. If only everyone thought the same. What a wonderful world this would be. 

[Artsy]

Just had to reply to this thread since it definitely resonates with me.

I'm the only child of an N father and enabling mother.  My father was the sole focus of the family and everything revolved around him and his needs.  My mother's pregnancy was an unwanted surprise and I was placed in foster care until I was six.

At that point, for some reason my mother lobbied to get me back.  My childhood consisted of walking on eggshells, compelled to silence, told to stay in my room, and having dinner on the table for my parents when they got home from work.  I was eight.

I dreamed and hoped and prayed that they would have a car accident and I could just live by myself.  Graduated highschool two years early and moved out on my own.  No contact with the parents siince that time - 40 years now.

The effect of growing up with no attachment has been two-fold.  One - it made me a much much better parent than I would have been otherwise.  My children are happy, well-adjusted adults who laugh at my "loner" ways but have healthy relationships themselves.

Two - I have been unable to sustain a relationship myself.  At the first sign of strife - perhaps a very minor disagreement - I am ready to pack my bags and leave.  For me, leaving is not such a big deal because the attachment is only on a "surface" level and involves a lot of play-acting.  I remember watching familty tv shows as a child so that I could learn how to behave.

I do realize that this could be a very sad recitation, and I often wonder how I might have been different.  But this is what I know and one really can't miss something that one has never had.

[Artsy]

Forgot to add that my only romantic relationships have been with N's.  Because that's what I know.

[CeeMee]

Artsy,

Your story breaks my heart it is so sad.  That must have been a very painful 10 years you lived with her not counting the years and pain in foster care. 

I  agree that growing up without attachment or with deep emotional traumas can ultimately result in one being able to raise great kids.  That is something I  committed to after growing up the hard way and my kids turned out great too.  It wasn't easy to do given my own psychological problems but they turned out great despite my issues.

Like I wrote Portia on another post, don't give up on love.  It can happen when you least expect it. 

Seems you have a solid understanding of what your shortfalls are in the relationship department.  That's the first step towards resolving them.  Some folks don't have a clue.  It takes lots of self assessment and work to be ready to receive your soulmate in life. 

Don't feel obliged to respond if this is too personal.  Do you  think that the reason you pack to leave at the slightest sign of problems is your own fear of abandonment?  That would make sense given your abandonment as a child.  Did you worry that your mom might give you up again after she regained custody?  Did you work very hard as a child to meet your moms expectations (keeping quiet, having dinner ready) for fear you may be abandoned again?   


CeeMee

[Artsy]

CeeMee - in response to the questions in your last paragraph, my packing to leave at the first sign of problems is indeed partially due to fear of abandonment - get out before I'm thrown out.  The other factor is of course that I have never seen a relationship where there is strife and it is solved. 

As I said, my father was an N and the world revolved around him.  My mother went along with all of his rules and dictates.  There was never a raised voice or a slammed door.  Frankly, angry voices create a deep fear in me - in real life, on tv or in a film.

I have never - and this is absolutely true - had a raised-voice argument in my entire life.  Despite two divorces.

The fear of abandonment goes very deep - I remember my husband being TWO (really!) minutes late to pick me up once and I was in tears by the time he arrived.

The N with whom I was most recently involved brought all of my childhood memories back.  I had done a pretty good job growing scar tissue, but he really did a number on me.  Hence the recent bout of introspection.

[CeeMee]

Hi Artsy and thanks for sharing those responses.  It must be difficult searching through all this stuff.  You have such a good handle on what's going on though.  Seems to me that you should have no problem toward recovery.  Are you in therapy?  Can't recommend it enough. 

Some other thoughts about your responses. 

There are ways of changing reactions to conflict and anger and part of it is learning new responses.  When dealing with emotional responses triggered by deep rooted emotional traumas, I don't see there is any way around a good therapist; one that will listen and help you relive and regurgitate alot of this childhood stuff, particularly the anger and fear that was no doubt surpressed.  The book I read and have mentioned at least a dozen times on the board "A General Theory of Love" talks very clearly about this whole process and how it works on the the brain.

Talk therapy really is therapeutic.  Just be sure you find a therapist that you click with and who is committed to bringing about your well being most of all by providing a non judgmental empathetic ear.  When I think back to my therapist, I can't ever remember her and I being in conflict over anything.  She made suggestions and I either followed them or not and regardless of what I decided, there was no judgment or fingerpointing.  She trusted me to make my own choices.  I trusted her to support me.

Once some semblence of inner peace and happines is achieved with this rewrite on the brain, you'd be surprised how much easier it is to standup or at least stand still  rather than taking flight at the slightest sign of hostility or aggression.  It really can be changed.  Now one may not become a fiery defense attorney if they aren't naturally an extrovert, but everyone should certainly be able to stand up  for themselves when they  have a right to and want to.

Introspection is good.  I wish you the best and keep posting. 

CeeMee

[Chicken]

I find all of this so confusing! 

I have so many jumbled up thoughts and unanswered questions about attachment. 

Sometimes I wonder if I should be trying to change myself or accept myself for who I am. 

I wonder if I am keeping people at bay on purpose or do I have some innate feeling that this person in question will not meet my needs and I am thereby protecting myself.  Should I just trust my inner judgement on this?  Maybe it's just bad timing, and maybe this is a time to be alone with myself...

I think I just don't really like people.  Even my friends, I keep changing my mind about them all the time.  When I decide that I don't like them, I kinda prepare myself for permanent departure.  It's like I am always sort of 'one foot out the door' just in case...  My friendships are like those parties that you go to but you don't take off your coat in case you have to leave.  The annoying thing is that it seems like the problem not only lies with me but with my friends also.  We are similar.  I tried to open myself up a little more to them recently as I was learning more about my behaviour with my counsellor, but it failed.  I felt my friends weren't able to meet my needs and I was setting myself up for a big disappointment & hurt by opening myself to the wrong people.  Is this my fate then?  Will I end up like my Mother in an unhappy, unfulfilling marriage because that is all I will ever get?  it seems I have been on the same road all my life, I can't see things changing now...  Why can't i send myself people I can open up to and connect to?  I know change must begin with me, but how long is this going to take? 

Unfulfilling.

I am more comfortable in new friendships and that seems to be a fact.  I am NEVER SATISFIED with those I get close to.  There are too many complications.
 
I am similar to you Cee Mee, I too feel like a lone ranger.  I sometimes feel I am the only one of my kind on the planet and everyone else is locked up in another world where I am shut out.  I feel like I am out on the edge.  I feel so disconnected from people and I am rarely fulfilled. 

Animals are the only living creatures that I can ever open myself wholly to, as I am 100% sure they will not hurt me and there is no risk involved.  This is why I adore my four legged friends.

Thanks for this post, it has been fascinating, but also very close to the bone 

[CeeMee]

Hi Selkie,

Totally understand the confusion part.  I am frequently of that state of mind.  Not to worry.  I think that it is good to jumble up our thoughts every now and then and make sense of them.  Many times a day I have the same battles as you of going back and forth.  But I have decided (I may undecide this later mind you) that it is probably a good thing that our thoughts swing back and forth like a pendulum.  Eventually, it brings balance.  The alternative would be not to weigh things and settle on a position or view of things that hasn't been sufficiently tested.  After much research and after talking with folks on the board, I've concluded that this is my personality type. 

Selkie, I know that feeling of opening up and ultimately being betrayed.  It has happened to me numerous times.  We can't know unless we try though.  Again, what's the alternative, never trusting anyone?  Hopefully though we hone our senses and get better.  Maybe one day we will find that acquaintance who becomes a friend who becomes a confidant. 

Selkie, I would be honored to be your friend.  Feel free to write me any time.  Truthfully, I feel closer to some of the people on this board than anyone in my work or social circles. 

What I have found with my so called "friends" who make me question whether we really are friends, is that when I am not feeling them, I just put some distance between us.  I stop putting energy there for a while.  Eventually, if there is will on both sides, we wind up spending time together again.  I have learned over time to lower my expectations of people.  That helps too.

CeeMee

[Healing&Hopeful]

(((((((((((((Selkie)))))))))))))))

Big hugs hon.


Sometimes I wonder if I should be trying to change myself or accept myself for who I am
I feel this is both Selkie hon.  The way I see it is that unless we accept ourselves for who we are, how can we change ourselves to become the person we would like to be?

I wonder if I am keeping people at bay on purpose or do I have some innate feeling that this person in question will not meet my needs and I am thereby protecting myself.  Should I just trust my inner judgement on this?  Maybe it's just bad timing, and maybe this is a time to be alone with myself...
I feel that this could be both as well... but here you are opening up.  I feel that here you are sharing your confusion and thoughts and that is opening up.... and I think that this is really great.  Sometimes it's easier to take small steps, start small and build from there.

I think I just don't really like people.  Even my friends, I keep changing my mind about them all the time.  When I decide that I don't like them, I kinda prepare myself for permanent departure.  It's like I am always sort of 'one foot out the door' just in case...  My friendships are like those parties that you go to but you don't take off your coat in case you have to leave.  The annoying thing is that it seems like the problem not only lies with me but with my friends also.  We are similar.  I tried to open myself up a little more to them recently as I was learning more about my behaviour with my counsellor, but it failed.  I felt my friends weren't able to meet my needs and I was setting myself up for a big disappointment & hurt by opening myself to the wrong people.  Is this my fate then?  Will I end up like my Mother in an unhappy, unfulfilling marriage because that is all I will ever get?  it seems I have been on the same road all my life, I can't see things changing now...  Why can't i send myself people I can open up to and connect to?  I know change must begin with me, but how long is this going to take? 
While reading that you don't really like people.... I feel that if you really didn't you wouldn't be here.  I'd be really interested to hear how you opened up and why you felt your friends weren't able to meet your needs?  I also believe that we have a lot of power in ourselves to determine our own fate to some extent... in that if we don't like something, then we have the power to change it.... we have the power to stop ourselves going down the same road all our lives.  Regarding ending up like your Mother... no I don't think you will... I feel maybe you could go a little easier on yourself.  From a personal experience, I believe that we have to accept and love ourselves before anyone else can love us.  I went through a lot of unhealthy types of relationships (mainly because I was looking for someone to give me love), but I am proud that I had the ability to learn from them, to change my destiny if you like.  How long will it take?  I don't know hon, but you said it yourself, you know it must begin with you... that is a huge first step of acceptance.

I sometimes feel I am the only one of my kind on the planet and everyone else is locked up in another world where I am shut out.
I grew up feeling like this... but it's not true.  If you were own your own planet, we wouldn't understand you, and we do!

Animals are the only living creatures that I can ever open myself wholly to, as I am 100% sure they will not hurt me and there is no risk involved.  This is why I adore my four legged friends.
This is fabulous Selkie... all your questioning... this shows that you can open up yourself to others.  I feel that you are concerned about being hurt and taking a risk.  When you posted here, you took a risk and opened up... we are not animals (at least I don't think so, though my legs are pretty hairy at the moment so I could be considered a monkey!!!).  Unfortunately we have to take risks, or we'd just be a hermit with no contact with the outside world, however the best thing is that if anyone does hurt us, we have the power to say No... to say I'm sorry, I don't have to accept your behaviour, we have the power to not allow people to continue to hurt us once we have taken that initial risk.

I feel that you are doing really well Selkie.  You are the person on my how to let go post that could see I was putting myself back into voicelessness... and this made a huge impact on me because it was something I could not see that I was doing to myself.  I feel if you have even half of this insight with your current relationships, you can't go far wrong.

Take care

H&H xx

[Chicken]

Thank you CeeMee and H&H-
-For your kind and wise words!

Can i just say that my dog who died years ago visited me last night (after my post) in my dream.  We were on concrete steps and she came to me and I just petted her with so much love for ages!!!!  ...and she gave me so much love, it was so lovely to see her little skinny black and white wire haired legs- 

CeeMee said: But I have decided (I may undecide this later mind you) that it is probably a good thing that our thoughts swing back and forth like a pendulum.  Eventually, it brings balance.  The alternative would be not to weigh things and settle on a position or view of things that hasn't been sufficiently tested.  After much research and after talking with folks on the board, I've concluded that this is my personality type.

This is very cool, and it cheered me up.  It's kinda exhausting swinging back and forth isn't it?  I hope someday it will bring balance. I feel like I change with each swing too, always changing my mind about people and myself.  I like her, I don't, I like me, I don't, I like my life, I don't, I'm happy, I'm sad and so on...

H&H: I feel very safe opening up on this board as I feel like there are like minded people and they will catch my fall.  There is ALWAYS support on here ALL THE TIME, and that is pretty much garaunteed-  To answer your question without completely hijacking the thread, I'd be really interested to hear how you opened up and why you felt your friends weren't able to meet your needs? Well about a month ago I figured I would open up to my friends and prove to myself that i wasn't the one who was keeping them at bay.  So I set about trying to meet up more often and set about making more contact etc, but it resulted in them not changing!  They got kinda flaky and let me down, not returned my calls/texts until after the day I wanted to meet them etc, I set myself up to be hurt.  I think I would open up to anyone if they proved themselves to me.  But it takes a new person.  Hopefully I will attract more available people?

CeeMee said: What I have found with my so called "friends" who make me question whether we really are friends, is that when I am not feeling them, I just put some distance between us.  I stop putting energy there for a while.  Eventually, if there is will on both sides, we wind up spending time together again.  I have learned over time to lower my expectations of people.  That helps too.

CeeMee, this sums up my friendships.  I need time away to recover every so often.  Sometimes I feel like it's the end of the friendship.  I always come around though and we meet up again.  You say you have learned to lower your expectations, in what way?  Surely by lowering your expectations you are giving people a license not to meet your needs?  How do you have close friends if  your expectations of them are low?

[Healing&Hopeful]

Selkie hon

I can understand why you felt hurt with your friends... it depends what their lives are like, how much notice you gave them, do they work shifts etc etc etc.  I don't have lots of friends, however I do have a few close friends.  Trying to fit in when to see them is difficult... my husband works shifts, one of my friends works shifts, and another one has an evening job as well as working full time.  I generally give them a ring in advance (mostly 2/3 weeks ahead) and try and organise a mutually convenient time for both of us.  One of my friends works in various parts of the UK, and can be so busy she doesn't have time to return my calls, however I understand what her job is like so I accommodate accordingly.

By lowering your expectations, you can give people a licence to meet your needs if that makes any sense.  Personally I think your friends could have texted you back before the arranged meet up time, depending on how much notice they had, but as I don't know them, or what their lives are like this is difficult for me to speculate.  I have also had times where my friends has either not got messages, or thought they'd texted me when they hadn't... that kind of thing, however they have always apologised and are sorry they let me down.

Friends, as with any kind of relationship, takes effort and the more responsibility and busier our lives become, the more effort it takes.  There is also the possibility with your friends, that if you decided to contact them, and it was out of the norm for you (and I am only speculating here), then they might not feel they need to make the effort with you.  It depends as if they texted you afterwards did you say.... I thought you might have let me know beforehand, and I was hurt that you didn't.  No one wants to hurt their friends.

Maybe some thoughts to ponder on....

Take care

H&H xx

[Chicken]

Hi H&H-
I really want to reply to what you have said so I am going to regurgitate my friendship thread and respond to your post on that, I am feeling too guilty that I have hijacked CeeMee's thread!
xx