Noticing cracks in friendships- would rather not see

[Plucky]

Hi Selkie,
I just read my post and I think it sounds a bit cut and dried.  I don't mean it that way.   I meant to be warmer and friendlier.

One more thing.  Maybe putting more demands on your friends is a way to get rid of them.   This is just a suggestion.  There is something bothering you about the relationships.  That is real.  We just don't know what it is.  You also think you have problems with getting close to anyone.  So it is safe to imagine that some of your effort might go toward preventing this, in some form, but not consciously.

I don't know the answers.  When you get them, could you let me know?  Because I have the same issues.
Plucky

[Marta]

Selkie,

In therapy tehr eis no closure always, especially not after each and every session. You have to mull over things, think about them, learn to sift wheat from chaffe. Yes, you should definitely discuss with your T what is bothering you, that is part of the process and part of what intimacy is all about.

to me and has made attempts to meet up with me since.  Sometimes I wonder if I want to be let down...  Am I wanting to be the victim so I don't have to commit?

Somehow you have taken on all the blame of this intimacy thang on yourself. I don't think it is fair. It seems to me that you also need to go a bit eacsy on yourself girl. I was like this too, always thinking that everything that went wrong in the universe with me was my own fault. When I found true love, I could blossom.  All I know is that it takes two to tango, and if you feel hurt by your friends, then it is just a sign that something is up with that friendship. Also this party thing could just be a trigger, there may be other issues with teh friendship.

Take care of yourself and be nice to yourself.

Hugs, Marta

[write]

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh!

I am so annoyed every time I hear of a therapist who demands anything of their client- hell, they should be helping you find things out for yourself.

As for breaking your life apart totally....take it one stage at a time.

That can of worms can be difficult, for most friendships despite our conditionning are CONDITIONAL....but I really believe if you understand where people are coming from and are open to their experiences....you can form a sort-of bond.

Something to build upon?

[Sallying Forth]

H&H Thank you for your support,
I have joined a local club, which I will attend for the first time in a couple of weeks.  I do get out of the house a lot as I work 45+ hours a week.  I don't want to lose my friendships, I feel like I am going to ruin them with my antics!  I do have some sort of problem with intimacy though, as I do keep myself at bay.  I know there is nothing wrong with being introverted.  I am an EXTREME extrovert at times but then I go through introverted periods.  I enjoy both times but I crave closeness.

Selkie, I am an Introvert through and through and know that I still *need* people.  I get out a fair amount, but I am struggling with how to have a relationship go from acquaintance to friend to intimate confidant.  For me, the intimacy is being held back by my own ambivalence between fear of abandonment and fear of injury.  If I figure this conflict out, I'll be sure to let you know.

I am so complex

Yes, you are!

I am learning that when I trust and know myself then there is no ambivalence in relationships. Then I will know what I need to do to take care of myself. I will know how much to share. I know what I want.

[write]

I am learning that when I trust and know myself then there is no ambivalence in relationships. Then I will know what I need to do to take care of myself. I will know how much to share. I know what I want.

that is interesting SF, but I feel as I get older that there are no unconditional relationships, and being a sensitive soul I can often guess what people are thinking! Don't smile, I don't mean that I am always second-guessing everyone, I mean I can tell when a friend is prevaricating or not being reciprocal, that sort of thing.

I tend to take the relationship as a whole though- if it's good & positive it's ok, if it turns out that I feel disregarded or disrespected too often it has to go....though I have a few very old friends and family members who would fall into this category and I still keep in touch with them at a distance.

In some ways I feel I am more fearful of relationships than I used to be, but that's because I tend to get so involved before I realise it's not good for me.

Believe me Selkie- your real friends love you for who you are. I have bipolar disorder and my truest friends have stuck by me through many 'antics'!

Have you ever done a Myers-Briggs personality test? I came out INFJ which explained exactly that introvert yet suddenly needing to extrovert split...

[Hopalong]

Hi Selkie,
Fairly recentlly in my life I started looking at friendships with a little less expectation.
Now I sort of add them up and ask myself, are more than 2/3 of my interactions with this person basically positive and ...over tiiiiiime....do I have a general sense of their basic good intentions and that they are not toxic or cruel? Then they're KEEPERS.

(I need them more than I need them to meet all my needs. If that makes any sense.)

Hugs,
Hopalong

[Chicken]

Hi Gang-

Thanks for your comments and replies.  There is so much on here that I want to respond to. 

I approached my counsellor about on this topic, and I have come to the conclusion that my friendships are just fine.  I don't see my friends as often as I would like to (apart from the times I am in hermit mode) , but that is because we lead busy lives (we work two jobs) and it's difficult to arrange a time to suit us-this is very real and not used as an excuse.  When we do see each other, it's fantastic and I come away feeling refreshed. 

My friends are good people.  I know I can rely on them.  I am trying to make myself into someone I am not when I try to change things with them.  I was happy the way it is and I still am.  I would be open to being closer friends with some of them, in the sense of calling them more often and being more part of their lives rather than catching up every time we meet.  If that opportunity arose, I would meet it...  I think.  But right now, our/my life just doesn't seem to provide enough time or money to allow the kind of freedom to have that.  This is where i am at.

Marta, you touched on something that we should all pay attention to on this board, and that is this:

Marta: "It seems to me that you also need to go a bit eacsy on yourself girl. I was like this too, always thinking that everything that went wrong in the universe with me was my own fault. "

Because we are all so willing to better ourselves and our experiences, we sometimes forget that we are better than our experiences.  So many people glide through life without insight and self awareness...  and there we are stressing about ourselves AND them.  It seems we take the burden --which belongs to both parties of the relationship-- on our shoulders. 

Well, I think we need to take it a little easier on ourselves. We are a cool bunch of caring people. 

There are so many posts I wanna respond to in a bit more detail but I have got to go to work, maybe I will at a later date...

Warm thoughts to all

xx

[mum]

Because we are all so willing to better ourselves and our experiences, we sometimes forget that we are better than our experiences.  So many people glide through life without insight and self awareness...  and there we are stressing about ourselves AND them.  It seems we take the burden --which belongs to both parties of the relationship-- on our shoulders

Wow, Selkie....that's one amazing thought there...........THANK YOU

[Solitaire]

Does it help if you try to distinguish between friends and acquaintances?

A friend is someone who thinks about you even when you are not around and even when they do not want anything from you.

A friend will contact you because they haven't heard from you in a while, and for no other reason, because they care.

A friend can give, as well as take, and a friend knows how to leave you enough room, psychologically speaking, to be able to ask them for space or support.

Friends also accept responsibility. They aren't perfect, they're human like everyone else, but when they mess up, and you point it out to them, their first reaction is not defensive blaming of you. They get quiet and think seriously about what you have said, and they think seriously about whether or not you might be right. And they don't respond to you until they have thought honestly about these things.

An acquaintance can seem to be a friend, but you will know by the way they respond in certain situations if they are or not. Someone who expects you to give and give but never gives back, someone who always has a good reason why they have hurt you or neglected you, someone who responds to even the gentlest confrontation with hyper-righteousness and fury, this person is not a friend, and never can be.

It may not be their fault that they lack the capacity, but it is a fact nonetheless.

This is not easy to face. It is painful. Most of us have very few friends, even if we have a tremendous number of acquaintances. Most of us don't have the resources to be real friends to more than one or two people. It's not anyone's fault, it's just a fact of life. But it is a fact. Real friendship requires both honesty and time, and it's no wonder that it is rare, when you realize that.

[Chicken]

H&H said:

"Selkie hon

I can understand why you felt hurt with your friends... it depends what their lives are like, how much notice you gave them, do they work shifts etc etc etc.  I don't have lots of friends, however I do have a few close friends.  Trying to fit in when to see them is difficult... my husband works shifts, one of my friends works shifts, and another one has an evening job as well as working full time.  I generally give them a ring in advance (mostly 2/3 weeks ahead) and try and organise a mutually convenient time for both of us.  One of my friends works in various parts of the UK, and can be so busy she doesn't have time to return my calls, however I understand what her job is like so I accommodate accordingly.

By lowering your expectations, you can give people a licence to meet your needs if that makes any sense.  Personally I think your friends could have texted you back before the arranged meet up time, depending on how much notice they had, but as I don't know them, or what their lives are like this is difficult for me to speculate.  I have also had times where my friends has either not got messages, or thought they'd texted me when they hadn't... that kind of thing, however they have always apologised and are sorry they let me down.

Friends, as with any kind of relationship, takes effort and the more responsibility and busier our lives become, the more effort it takes.  There is also the possibility with your friends, that if you decided to contact them, and it was out of the norm for you (and I am only speculating here), then they might not feel they need to make the effort with you.  It depends as if they texted you afterwards did you say.... I thought you might have let me know beforehand, and I was hurt that you didn't.  No one wants to hurt their friends.

Maybe some thoughts to ponder on...."



You see this is where the confusion is, I never had a problem with my friends before my counsellor suggested that I may be avoiding intimacy in my friendships. grrrrrrr!  She's really planted a seed in my head that has niggled ever since...

I then set about really trying to prove her wrong. 

As a result, I felt as though I was pushing my friendships a bit too much, having high expectations and then getting angry/pissed off/disappointed/hurt when my expectations were not met.
I raised my expectations, because that's what I did essentially.  I set out to be intimate!  Talk about setting myself up!  Why did my counsellor do this to me?

My friends, my lifestyle and London really gets in the way of this.  You have to plan things, it takes an hour to cross the city! -you have to have money, you have to have time off work, and all of this has to coincide with another person!  It's hard.  We are all so busy-I am too.  I work two jobs trying to make ends meet and pay off my student debt.

So H&H what you are saying is right.  I really agree with you, and this is how I have always perceived it.  My friends are fine but they can't give me any more at the moment because life gets in the way, and to be quite honest, I kinda can't give anymore either, but I am on this trip to try to prove my counsellor wrong.  I am needlessly stressing over this. 

I think I need a counsellor just to get over my last counsellor!  I know my counsellor didn't mean to, but she really touched a nerve.

Also, H&H, you said that maybe my friends didn't get my texts etc and maybe they had an excuse etc, -you hit the nail on the head!  They have totally been aware of being flaky and have apologised and stuff, my friends phone broke and other stuff happened but for some reason I am overlooking this and playing victim.  I just cannot shake it off.  It's horrible.  I am creating this and I just can't shake it off.  It's like I am trying to turn myself off my friends.  What the F**?

A horribly confused,
Selkie

[Sallying Forth]

I think I need a counsellor just to get over my last counsellor!  I know my counsellor didn't mean to, but she really touched a nerve.

A horribly confused,
Selkie

Hi Selkie,
I needed a counselor to get over a dysfunctional counselor who wanted me for herself. She caused me to question things I shouldn't have been questioning.

[Healing&Hopeful]

Selkie sweetie...

I can see why you are confused.... and I think it lies with the word "Maybe"

Your counsellor suggested that you MAY be avoiding intimacy in your friendships.  May, Might... not necessarily.

I feel that you don't necessarily have to see your friends more often to gain intimacy if you feel it is lacking.  Not what anyone else thinks, but what you think and what you feel.  I haven't read through all this post again so I apologise if I'm repeating anything that someone else has said.

You sound to me like a typical London lassie hon... busy working, paying off student loan, and trying to see your friends at the same time.  Showing intimacy can be just the same in grabbing a quick coffee and chat with a friend, as spending the day together shopping and going out for a meal afterwards... it doesn't matter the amount of time you spend with your friend, it's the quality of the time.  Do any of your friends know you see your counsellor?

((((((((((((((Selkie))))))))))))))))))

H&H xx

[Healing&Hopeful]

I have found this article quite interesting:-

http://www.mudrashram.com/dysfunctionalfamily2.html

It's very long, but about 1/2 - 3/4's of the page down is an exercise to do about who you class as close friends and who you class as acquaintances etc, which I felt may be helpful to you. xx

[wally]

Hi Selkie,

I am a no call back offender, at least once a week mainly because I am in contact with so many people everyday.  People call me for professional reasons (work related calls, employees, customers, etc.), personal reasons (family issues), and friendship reasons (inquiries to hang out, or just talk).  The funny thing is that all of these people in these three categories could be calling in almost any category depending on circumstance, and people.  My brother might want to hang out, or my employee is having personal issues and needs time and sometimes opinion, or all of the above.  There is no way on Gods green earth that I can field all of the calls in the proper context except on lighter days.  I am not trying to hi-jack here, just simply letting you know that with all of the calls that I cannot possibly return, I get back to them in my own time so that I can respond with my whole self and not an unprepared, or hasty approach.
     Some of my past friendships are on the back burner because of this.  One great friendship in particular is a co softball coach friend.  I haven't called him in months, nor has he called me, but I know that I can call and re kindle anytime, and I will.  If for some reason he is distant when I do, well then its not time, and there may never be a right time......he could be done with our relationship.  I am confident that in all of the relationships that you come across the original likes about the person still exist in your heart and mind, with that, things can be put on the back burner if not for a couple of days even for a couple of months.  I am not saying that this is generally how it should be for everyone, or anyone, however I just wanted you to know that it is completely possible for things to not always be connected.  From you later postings here you have indicated that your okay with it not always being connected....now.
     There are people that put me into a tailspin by not getting back to me, but it is almost always business related and money is hanging in the breeze.  Sometimes two parties emerge from the dust of a couple of months of no communication and its like a western showdown to see what the issue(s) was, both are staring at each other waiting for the other to make the first move, or in this case comment.  Normally two would only ever approach each other even if there are hard feelings is if deep down there is a need for resolution.
     Perhaps your anxiety comes from a need, just like mine does in the business relationships.  Maybe an examination of your needs might help you to understand what is reasonable, healthy, and or a waste of time.  Example: What are your needs from a friend that you want to hang out with? If your needs are some recreation, or social interaction, or maybe you really need someone to talk to, these can all have priorities attached to them.  If you need someone to talk to, well then you need someone to talk to.  If you need some fun time with a friend, it is my opinion that this could be put off for a better day as no matter what your going to have a good time.
     I am a little apprehensive about this post as my views are kind of extreme.  However there are some great relationships out there that don't need a ton of attention, and or worry, usually these are the best ones.  I am forced to make these sorts decisions daily, and have found a way to have a little bit of sanity in between all of the different relationships. If your not forced then I can see how with too much wiggle room in the thought pattern it can be somewhat anxiety filled.  Just thought it would be helpful for you to perhaps see an extreme from this angle.


Wally    

[mudpuppy]

Hi Wally,

I couldn't agree more with everything you said.
But then we're guys and the others in this thread are well........not guys.
I wonder how much difference that makes in this context?

mudpup