Author Topic: Growing up in public  (Read 6704 times)

Portia

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Growing up in public
« on: January 10, 2006, 08:57:36 AM »
This thread may contain strong language, scenes of a sexual nature, violent imagery and will mostly consist of words. In (UK) English, mostly, probably. Si!

Problem: dealing with feelings and with half-wit people. Solution: work it through, analyse the problem, decide on course of action, or alternative courses of action, and act. Modify actions depending upon reactions of others. Keep a close watch on own emotional and intellectual reactions.

Current emotional condition: starting to admit feelings of being dishonest in not confronting mother. Wondering if it is possible to work through the anger and grief without ever stating that I have changed. Carrying on with the lies, the false reality. Yes, of course it’s possible to do this: I have to be the grown-up. There is no alternative there. Okay, but that doesn’t mean I have to pamper the child (or children). It doesn’t mean I’m the grown-up at my expense. It means I get to behave in an adult manner, even if others don’t. So let’s decide on an adult course of action.

Facts: mother’s brother telephones me on my mobile phone last night while I’m cooking. This is probably the second time he’s telephoned me in our lives (although I’ve called him a few times). We’re both “okay”, he wants a chat but “everything is alright”. He says he’s called me on the mobile because the land-line is “always engaged”. I tell him that’s because either me or my partner are on the internet. And that’s why I have a mobile, so people can ring me. I say I’m cooking and I’ll call him back in 15 minutes.

Alert: my mother has complained that she can’t get hold of me because I’m always on the internet, or engaged. He’s repeating her words. He doesn’t own a PC. Where did he get my mobile number? Maybe I gave it to him; unlikely. Maybe my mother, or father, gave it to him.

I call him back. He tells me about his new year. They (mother and he) went to Glasgow, to a posh hotel, for the weekend, along with a singles group. Visited Edinburgh on a coach trip. All very enjoyable. I ask why go to Scotland in the winter when it’s dark and cold? He says it wasn’t in the hotel. This befuddles my brain. I’m a logical, rational introvert. To enjoy myself I go south in the winter, I enjoy the outdoors, travel, scenery. I might go to Glasgow if you paid me, but it wouldn’t be my choice. Anyway, they ‘enjoyed’ it, so good luck to them. I’d like to understand what’s enjoyable about it, but I know if I ask I’ll be seen probably as critical. Which I am. I don’t think these people have a clue how to enjoy themselves. But that’s not my problem and I won’t comment. I tell him we’ve both been ill here over the holidays. And mention I got an email from mother saying she’d been ill too. I say that she’s probably caught it from [one of her boyfriends], who just spent a week working in London before he then went to stay with her. It’s a London bug, I’m convinced of it.

So what does he want? Under all this false heap of shit that passes as communication, what does he want from me? He asks if I’m working, talks about money (his views on it), talks about what he might do if he needs some spare cash (he doesn’t need it). Says he thinks he could work with “mentally ill” people. Tells me a couple of jokes. Asks me “will you give your mum a ring?”.

[ :shock:WHAT?] “Is she alright?” [visions of hospital beds etc spring to mind.] Oh yes, he tells me. Only she hasn’t heard from you. “I’ve got a mobile phone, yes I’m on the internet a lot, that’s why I’ve got a mobile so people can call me. She can call me if she wants to.” He makes a sound like he’s smiling in embarrassment. What does that sound like? If you know, you know, if you don’t, you don’t. I know. I give in, I can’t think of what else to do. “Okay I’ll call her tomorrow. In fact I might call you tomorrow as well, are you around?” Yes he will be. He sounds a bit ‘happier’.

I AM FURIOUS. I don’t verbalise it in an angry way. Watch the tv. Have a conversation. I could just ignore them both. Yeah that’s an option. Good point. Go to bed.

Today I’m furious! What bullshit manipulative fuck-wit piece of crap is this heading my way?

Why won’t people just leave me alone?? Leave me alone!!

Bad daughter! Bad girl! Rotten person! You should call your ‘Mother’. Mommy needs you. Mommy wonders what’s ‘wrong’. Mommy feels neglected. Mommy is missing supply. Yeah. I know. I got the email. All three boyfriends are out of action. This is my problem?

Or maybe I’m wrong. Maybe ….. facts. Fact. He spoke to my father two days ago. Aha. Maybe they discussed my mother? Maybe some conversation there prompted him to call me?

What a waste of time. Why do I have to waste my time on this?

Why doesn’t she call me (if she wants to)? Is she scared of calling me? (That’s a recent thought of mine. That she’s scared of me now. Because I’m not dumb any more. But of course…..it’s probably nonsense. It simply paints me as another version of a ‘bad’ person, a potentially harmful person. Only I know that. Only I know me. Only I know that I’m capable of a ground zero moment. People should be more careful around me! I have a big potential for truth-telling and that ain’t pretty. It’s not nice. It’s not always productive. Truth-telling involves emotions, like anger and grief.) Is she scared of me? She’s scared of the truth perhaps. Or perhaps not. No, of course not. There would be only one casualty I feel. Me. Or maybe not?

How much can you hurt stupid people?

I will not be told what to do. I’m being asked to do something. But I’m actually being told.

Nobody in this interaction gives a flying fuck about what I feel. As usual. How about asking me a question. “Have you called her recently? Why not?”

Mental health indeed.  :D Give me a b-r-e-a-k. :P

*sigh*. I have to pick the phone up. I’m going to call him and ask the questions. I’m not letting this go, I’m not doing as I’m told. I want to know why. I want to know what’s prompted him. Is it her? What did she say? What’s really going on here? Who’s manipulating who? Is this about power??

Life’s too short for this.

Sometimes I scare myself. I really do think in an advanced society people will need licences to have kids. Short of that objective, I can’t see the point in me trying to solve today’s problems. Maybe I could work with kids. Maybe I could work with prisons. Maybe I should just get out and do something; change a slight behaviour, change a huge load of my outlook, get off my ivory tower. I don’t like behavioural training. Because I was trained by step-father. That’s why I couldn’t have done therapy. I can’t won’t hand over control. I can’t do it now. I’m way too cynical, wary, aware and hey, I don’t need it. I know what the problems are. I’m too realistic that’s my problem. I need to believe and fantasise and just go with the flow and maybe get myself a healing crystal. I don’t have any problems: compared to the vast majority of humans on this planet. Compared to people who were loved as kids and who grew up with a solid sense of self, confidence, a good dose of everyday delusion – yeah, I have problems. So what? I’d love to be a therapist. But I don’t love people enough. Sometimes I feel like Harry Lime in The Third Man. What would it matter if one of those dots down there suddenly stopped moving? It wouldn’t matter. It happens and – it doesn’t matter. And that is terrible.

What’s the worse that could happen? You’re never alone with schizophrenia.

Hey. This is a bit down. I feel some social responsibility kicking in. I don’t want to bring you down. I’m just coming down from a good swear and trying to be grown-up and decide what to do. I just want to rant like a two-year-old for a moment. I want to say, hey, it’s not fair! Hahaha. I love this board. Hey Voiclessness.com/disc3, I’ll never let you go!  :D You know too much! hahahahaha *hic* hahaha! Now that’s funny. I’m making myself smile.

Oh what to do. Pick up the phone. Pretend for a moment to be a normal person. That is, one who lies, who is false, who never speaks the truth for the sake of – our parents. We must spare our parents. I must spare my mother so that he may spare his mother and so on.

Good news. I love the online library system! I reserved another two Alice Miller books online yesterday. Excellent! I love it. I don’t have to deal with another human being and these two books can travel from two different towns to arrive at my chosen destination to collect. Wonderful! Such a little bit of achievement and control and it doesn’t take much to make me happy with the day’s events. And I’ve stopped myself checking the washing machine door. You know, I open it to check that I’ve closed it securely? Totally nuts. I’m weaning myself off that one. It goes back to when I moved in here. The previous idiot doctor owner had allowed his machine to overflow for years; I had to have the flooring removed down to the (wet) concrete base. Yes people are irresponsible and selfish and stupid. Even when they have big brains.

I can do without this. Hours of this. “You analyse too much”. “Women who think too much” (hey was that written by a man or woman?). Yeah I think too much! Wanna give me a lobotomy babe? Hahaha.

I might be a “sensitive person” or even a “highly sensitive person”. You know what I think that means? In real language? It means intelligent. That can be either IQ intelligent or EQ intelligent or some other gauge we haven’t yet invented. Down’s syndrome folks have an extra chromosome. Isn’t that amazing? They don’t have a deficiency, they have an excess. They have more. Interesting.

I could be procrastinating now. Could well be. But it’s turning into fun and I’d rather be avoiding relating to people who are just darn hard work. Dah de dum dum deeee dah...

It’s a sick joke though. I always was responsible for mother. And now I know I have to be responsible because some others, her included, are not. It’s not fair, kick scream! Haha. I wish I was thick. I wish I’d had six kids and lived in drunken poverty. It could have happened. I might not have been drunken. Having six kids might have helped me grow up faster. Might have been fantastic. I might have been a great mother. Let’s not go there right now. That contains too much grief. Emotion is not rational, except seen as the effect following the cause.

I can only be what I have been and where I am now. I cannot be otherwise. Peace. 

Phone calls. What will I say? I’ll say: what prompted you to call me? And then I’ll listen. I’m good at listening, when I want to.

Haha! This is in Word and it’s three pages! “call your mother” = 3 pages. I guess it’s not surprising really. Hey. “Call your mother” - nice title? Not exactly Bridget Jones’s Diary. Nah. People want bread and circuses. Prince Charmings. Romantic delusion. Happy Endings. There is only one true ending - we all die. Margaret Atwood wrote a lovely short story called ‘happy endings’ I think. It made me laugh. It’s a comfort to read her and know that other people do think as you think. Or at least you imagine that they think as you do!

Make the phone call. Oooooo surely there is some housework to do?

Healing&Hopeful

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Re: Growing up in public
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2006, 09:26:37 AM »
((((((Portia)))))

Honey.... You are really funny, you know that.... I know you have all the sh*t with the possibility of ringing your Mum, but your post really made me laugh (with you, not at you, you understand!)

So how about we break it down and look at your choices.....

You can ring your Mum's brother and find out why he asked you to call her.  Would he tell you?  If he's prepared to be messenger, you can always ask him "What's Mum prepared to do herself to find a solution to this situation?"

You can ring your Mum.  What would you achieve by ringing her?  Take her out of the equation and what would benefit you.

You don't call either of them.  How would you feel?

Love H&H xxx
Here's a little hug for u
To make you smilie while ur feeling blue
To make u happy if you're sad
To let u know, life ain't so bad
Now I've given a hug to u
Somehow, I feel better too!
Hugs r better when u share
So pass one on & show u care

guest444

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Re: Growing up in public
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2006, 09:27:35 AM »
Portia,
Don't have much time to respond, but I totally relate and loved reading your thoughts!!  I think you should call up your mother's brother and say something like the following (or put it in an email like I did to my Dad's brother, my uncle and his mother, my grandmother):

"I understand if you feel like you may be betraying my Mom if you accept this, but in order to have a relationship with me you must.  I  know that you probably feel it is your duty, somehow, to encourage me to try to have a relationship with Mom.  To convince me that she “really does love me..” or that it is “for the good of all” to talk to her.  Please do not try to do this, as it only prolongs what I must do, which is to detach from her (psychologically speaking—it is a therapist’s term).  I understand that from your position, you are unable to be emotionally available to me—so you cannot ask how I feel about it, agree, or disagree with me, or tell me that you can see if from my point of view (ie, empathize).   An honest examination of what I’ve said would probably cast many doubts on your own relationship with my Mom, and on your relationships with your parents as well, likely.  Mental illness affects everyone in the family, whether we choose to believe it or not. My goal in my telling you a little about my relationship with my Mom is to protect myself.  To stick up for what I know, and explain to people who might otherwise become confused by my actions, what I believe to be going on.  I think she tries to manipulate and control me which is abusive.  Your support and understanding of this isn’t really necessary, because I already have enough support--I have my best friend (my SO), I have a therapist, I have God, I have myself, and I have other friends and relatives who are sympathetic.  My only goal in telling you this is so that you will understand why I do not call my Mother, or choose to be around her, or why I don’t know “what is up with her, or what the latest news is”; i.e., so that you will understand that I am detached—I’m not involved in her life.  I am talking to everyone else in the family, so feel free to call me and ask about me, or anyone else and I’ll tell you what I know.  Whatever story Mom tells you, please take it with a grain of salt.  Obviously, you do not understand the depth of her problems, which is not surprising to me.  You have not experienced her abuse as I have.  I can still enjoy the relationship I have with you, even if you never understand this.  



bean

Sela as guest

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Re: Growing up in public
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2006, 11:07:09 AM »
Hiya Portia:

Great post!  Get 'er out!!

Hey!  Why do you have to call anyone?

You've been told to?  You agreed to?

The most beautiful thing about you is that you can change your mind, if you want to. :D 8) :D

Why phone anyone?

"Oh....yes......I did say I would, didn't I. Oh well.  Changed my mind."  (If he calls back and asks)

or

"That was yesterday.  Today.....I don't think so."  (if he calls back and wants to know why you haven't called).

Quote
I give in, I can’t think of what else to do.


Guess how many times in my life I've done this?   Zillions, probably.
Then I think of all kinds of stuff I could have said or done, afterwards.

Now you've had a chance to reconsider and you can indeed do anything else, if you want to.

There's no law against changing your mind!!!

The ring-police don't know your mobile number!!! :mrgreen:  (But....your mother does--she can call if she wants to).

Why is big brother trying to get baby girl to do what mommy wants?  Is he just a little hooked?  Is he a little like her?   Poor dude.

And another thing........no worries.  Forget it.  Live today (my new basic advice :P).  It was just a lousy phone call.  Nothing to do with you, really.  You can get on with enjoying cooking or tv or reading or whatever........and not give it another thought if you want to.   You don't have to play the game.  You don't have to let it upset you for another minute.

Stupid people and their stupid behaviour.  Golly gee.  Poor them.

Quote
How much can you hurt stupid people?

Who's hurting who??? :shock:

Quote
Life’s too short for this.

Absolutely!!  On with it then!!  Enjoy!!  Forget idiots/ninncompoops and pathological people......today, if you want to.  You can always change your mind tomorrow!!! :idea:

Quote
What a waste of time. Why do I have to waste my time on this?

Maybe because it feels weird to agree to do something you don't want to do, (if you don't want to), just because some supplier asks you to?
Maybe you feel like you've been manipulated and you needed to deal with that by expressing it?
Maybe you haven't wasted your time?  Maybe you've just been open about what happened, how you feel and what you're thinking?
Maybe the feedback of other people....will help validate what you've been feeling and thinking?  Bonus!!!

Great post P!!

If you don't feel like it or want to, you don't HAVE to call anyone!  Hahahahahaha!!!  The beauty of freedom!!!

Isn't it fabulous!!! :D

((((((((((((((((((((((P))))))))))))))))))))))

 :D Sela

Portia

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Re: Growing up in public
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2006, 11:35:14 AM »
Hey H&H good!  :D Good. Thank you. I wanted you to laugh. Another secret ambition is stand-up comedy. Wow what a challenge eh? It appeals to me because it really is just you, alone, trying to connect, trying to raise a laugh, maybe dealing in things which make folks feel just a little stressed, nervous laughter followed by release laughter. I will never do it!

Oh choices. The more I type here, the happier I am. Ummmm okay. Let’s look at it.

He’s being go-between. I’ve been used as go-between and I feel kind of sad for him. Because he thinks it’s the right thing to do. Sort of. Actually he just wants to dump it and who can blame him. Or maybe he’s actually concerned about me (!) and thinks a chat with my ma will cheer me up? It’s possible.

I’m not calling her. Not right now. I need information first! What’s the situation here? Am I required for anything real? Or is it just BS?

I’ll call him because I want to know. I’m curious. And I can handle it. Even if it does annoy me.

If I don’t call either of them: I risk having a label applied to me in my absence. Could be “depressed” could be “bad daughter”. Do I care? Yep. I don’t actually want to hurt my mother or uncle. But I don’t want them on my doorstep either. Or getting my father on my case. If that happens, I just might start truth-telling!

Hiya and thanks Bean :D

I like your email. Did it do the job?

I don’t have relationships as such with anyone on the maternal side of my genes. I don’t see them. I’ve seen this uncle three/four times in the last 5 years. Before that, twice in 20 years. Before that, not a lot. I was pretty isolated. I care about my mother’s relatives as much as they are blood-related but that’s about it. I’ll go to weddings and funerals, maybe. Maybe not. It doesn’t matter to anyone; I’ve always been outside that family. And we’re all geographically apart. She’s got close to him recently and they spend a lot of time together. Do they have a relationship? Not in my terms. I’ve spent time around the two of them and there is no conversation. They tell jokes. Repeat old stories. Avoid anything remotely real. And they are not interested in other people. Including me!

Honestly I could just ignore this. But it wouldn’t be adult or responsible of me to do that and it puts power in the wrong place. He’s made a communication with me and I’ll respond. But on my terms! I’m now more interested in him and why he called me than in what mother is up to, or not up to. On the other hand, can I be bothered? Yes of course I can. I want to manage my public persona within the weird thing that is my ‘family’. Especially as there is a link to my father, which is a completely different and separate family.  Haha. It’s all nonsense.
Oh look at the time. I might not have time to call today. Ooops. Oh maybe I do.

Thanks for the replies. It always helps to know I’m not bonkers.

Hey Sela just caught your reply, thank you. :D

The ring-police don't know your mobile number!!!
Yep you guessed I just guffawed so loud …haha :Dhahahahahaha *bonk* haha ooops *snortle* crawls back onto chair…. :D

Is he just a little hooked?  Oh lots and lots. Not very healthy I feel. Way back down the line. Not healthy!  :(

Who's hurting who??? Good question. Darn good question. The truth might set me free but I *feel* a ground zero would hurt a few people: mum, uncle, father. Or would it? It depends on how it might be presented I guess….

I guess about: why do I have to waste my time: it’s just saying it’s not fair again. It’s not fair that I have to learn all this, I have to understand it, I have to analyse it and yet again – be told it’s not my bloody responsibility to be responsible for other peoples’ thoughts and actions. Haha. You know, it’s not fair because not everyone has to learn all this stuff (do they?). I just want to know it and not have to analyse any more. I want instant understanding! “and I want it now!”

Dear superior being, please give me patience and give it to me NOW :D

Oh but I do have to manage things. I don’t want her turning up on the doorstep again. Like a couple of months back! Can you believe that? Out of the blue, unannounced. Boundaries, respect, reality?

Hey I have to go shopping. Too late to call today! :mrgreen:

Thanks all. I like the reality right here :D

mudpuppy

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Re: Growing up in public
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2006, 12:00:31 PM »
Hi Potia,

Not sure if you're looking for advice or just thinking out loud, but my thoughts on reading your post were, you got caught off guard. No more, no less. Ns always come up with new angles of attack.
IMO you said you would call so you should. Make it short and sweet and then learn from what occured. If you make the call and learn how to protect yourself better in the future then the episode was worth it. If you fret and vent and get a few good zingers in but leave yourself open to future manipulations then you get immediate satisfaction but no long term relief.

The problem is, thinking up things to say and getting upset about it is still a symptom of their manipulation.
Perhaps instead of analysing and learning all sorts of ways to interact it would be easier to learn to form a mental iron curtain. It stays up and out of sight while interacting with decent people and descends when dealing with dear ol mom and her cohort, leaving an emotionless dead pan Portia. Wouldn't that be easier to learn than to ananlyse and learn and understand all their junk? You don't have to waste your time doing that do you? Isn't that just another form of their manipulation?
If you respond and try to get to the bottom of why he called and learning about their relationship, don't you just remain an actor in their play? Would it be possible to let them play by themselves?

mud

Portia

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Re: Growing up in public
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2006, 12:34:54 PM »
Hiya and thanks Mud :D

I’m still pondering. The thing is, I don’t vent, I don’t hit out, I listen. I listen to endless dross about superficial rubbish and they feel better. They feel they have a relationship. I stick up for myself somewhat, I don’t take any rubbish perceptions from them but really, they are like children.

All this stuff, it’s all in my head, or here in words, it doesn’t happen with other people. I mostly ignore and play the ‘so how are you?’ social game like you might with vague acquaintances. I’m very controlled around people like this now. It seems there are so many too. It’s draining.

thinking up things to say and getting upset about it is still a symptom of their manipulation

I don’t think about what I’m going to say in terms of attacking them. I’m thinking about what to say in terms of how to extract the pertinent information from them without upsetting anyone, including me. I am upset that my mother may now be using my uncle to get supply from me. But I could be wrong. I don’t know the facts – yet! But I don’t trust myself to talk to anyone until I’ve talked here and discussed my reactions, my feelings and thoughts.

Wouldn't that be easier to learn than to ananlyse and learn and understand all their junk?

I’m not understanding their junk now - I’m understanding my junk :D. Big difference! My junk is what’s in my head: their junk is what they say and do. What have they done exactly? Not much. My uncle has asked me to call my mother. Big deal? My reaction to that is for me to work on. That’s my junk; not theirs. See what I mean?

However, I am driven to understand! It’s how I am and I kind of like it, if you see what I mean. I’d rather keep learning and feeeeeling (even feeling bad) than close down. Closing down is repressing I feel for me. I did too much of that, too much being strong and fighting – fighting by turning away.

Does this make sense to you?

Portia

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Re: Growing up in public
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2006, 12:45:20 PM »
Hiya Jac :D
You and I have soooooo much in common!!!
Oh yep, that’s why we fought! True though? Maybe? Seeing in each other the stuff neither wanted to see in ourselves, perhaps? Trying to tread carefully here! I think we have a good deal of stuff in common. I agree :D :D :D

so she won't have to be responsible
ohhhh good point (hits head). Put him in the middle. Yeah. Thanks. Makes sense.

It was toooo funny!!!  Hey I want to entertain! I like it. Thanks Jac. :D

Shoot it’s way too late to do anything now. Gotta go. Thanks all again. :arrow:

Healing&Hopeful

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Re: Growing up in public
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2006, 12:56:14 PM »
I’m not understanding their junk now - I’m understanding my junk . Big difference! My junk is what’s in my head: their junk is what they say and do. What have they done exactly? Not much. My uncle has asked me to call my mother. Big deal? My reaction to that is for me to work on. That’s my junk; not theirs. See what I mean?

Piffle and balderdash hon.... yes, if we look at facts then it can appear like that....

I'm not sure how long it is since you last spoke to your mother (I just typed mouther... possibly more accurate?), but whenever we haven't spoken to them for a while, it's a normal reaction because it IS a big deal.  Your uncle called out of the blue, made small talk and asked you to ring your mother.  Whatever decision you make has to be the right decision for YOU... no one else and it is OK to make a decision to suit you and your needs, not anyone else.
Here's a little hug for u
To make you smilie while ur feeling blue
To make u happy if you're sad
To let u know, life ain't so bad
Now I've given a hug to u
Somehow, I feel better too!
Hugs r better when u share
So pass one on & show u care

mudpuppy

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Re: Growing up in public
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2006, 01:02:02 PM »
Quote
Does this make sense to you?

Well..........no.

The venting I was referring to is the venting you are doing here, not to your relations.
I don't think, based on your post, that there is much doubt why he called you. I'm sure its exactly what you suspect.
 I know this stuff is in your head. But my point is, its your mother in your head. Trying to analyse and understand something endlessly can itself be a form of manipulation.

You have decades of evidence that your mom is a problem. Is it better to analyze a problem or eliminate it?
If I come home and discover a burglar in my home, I'm not going to sit him down and find out if he was deprived as a child. I'm going to assist him in vacating the premises by any means necessary. There's always time to learn his story later, even if its from his next of kin.

Quote
However, I am driven to understand! It’s how I am and I kind of like it, if you see what I mean.
Well, if you like it then stop complaining and just enjoy yourself. Just kidding.

Quote
I’d rather keep learning and feeeeeling (even feeling bad) than close down.
Why do you think those are your only options? Maybe there's a third option of evicting her from your cranium and actually feeeeeeling good. Simplistic? Maybe, but I think you're going down a dark and endless tunnel seeking to understand and analyze your mom.

mud

CeeMee

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Re: Growing up in public
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2006, 04:10:40 PM »
Hi Portia,

Interesting post.  I've read and reread it because it has so many interesting little insights and observations.  It's is kind of neat when someone opens up completely and lets others inside their head.  I think we all think much the same as you have demonstrated, but not everyone has the self confidence and courage to just open up that can and let others look inside.  The benefit to others can't be measured.  I know I learn a lot about myself reading your posts.  Thanks.

I'm analytical as you are P and so my head would be spinning trying to figure out what was really going on here and you are right that much of it could well be my junk as you put it.  I find that I get more answers and deeper understanding when I can figure my junk out rather than trying to figure out their junk given so few facts to go on. 

Now if you really want to get to the bottom of this and know for sure whether there is some behind the scenes antics going on  (which there may well be.  If we can think it, it's probably been done and is being done is my feeling) just pick up that phone and ask in your nicest more respectable voice, "so uncle --------- I'm curious, if you can be honest with me, tell me, did my mother ask you to call me?"  And leave it at that.  No matter what he answers, you know it will have to be reanalyzed again and the game goes on and on till we think we've found the truth. 

I wasted much time in those types of investigations and analysis.  Now I try to work with what I know best, the junk in my head.

Why are you upset Portia?  Is it because you feel obligated to call mom now because you said you would or is it because you said you would and really didn't want to.  Are you upset with yourself, your mom or your uncle?


CeeMee

Plucky

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Re: Growing up in public
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2006, 11:20:56 PM »
Look Portia,
You obviously don't want to phone or you would have already done.  You feel as if you have to for some reason.  Why let your mother's devious plan succeed? 
In your place I would try to avoid any type of contact with those folks.  Don't take any responsibility for them.  If you have feelings, try to let them go. They are not going to lead to anything useful, nor is that Everest of analysis you feel obligated to climb. 
If you by an old reflex said you would phone, right now you can release yourself from that.    You are free. 
Listen to your own voice and do what you really want to do.
Plucky

Marta

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Re: Growing up in public
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2006, 02:45:59 AM »
Portia, I can imagine how furious you are. I would be too. IMHO, as long as we stay within the N orbit, we will be subjected to their games. The only way out is to cut off all contact, at least for sometimes. Then if you choose to reconnect, it is easier to reestablish boundaries. Otherwise she wll play this game on and on.

Quote
love the online library system! I reserved another two Alice Miller books online yesterday.
Sounds greeat. Which online library has Alice Miller BTW?

Sela

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Re: Growing up in public
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2006, 09:45:46 AM »
Hi there Portia:

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Honestly I could just ignore this. But it wouldn’t be adult or responsible of me to do that and it puts power in the wrong place.

Says who?  Is this belief helping you?  What if, you decided?.....

"Honestly, I could just ignore this and it would probably be very adult and responsible of me to do that.  That way I take back my power.  It puts the power in the right place".

 :shock: :shock:

Personally, I think I like the second belief better.  Who must we be responsible to first?  Them or ourselves?Isn't it adult to ignor childish behaviour and just carry on, praise the good behaviour we see?  Isn't one of the biggest powers we have.... the power to decide how to react to the nonsense?

I'm glad the ring police thingy gave you a laugh!  So important to laugh inbetween squirming and racking brain cells, eh? :lol:

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Who's hurting who??? Good question. Darn good question. The truth might set me free but I *feel* a ground zero would hurt a few people: mum, uncle, father. Or would it? It depends on how it might be presented I guess….

Ok.....I'm not really sure what you mean by ground zero ('cause half the time I'm up in the clouds :roll:) but how about this:

You embrace the truth within you and.....biggie coming........ACCEPT.....that they never will embrace anything anywhere near the truth?

I know....that's not fun or fair or nice or easy.  Other than that....it's a breeze!! :D  And best of all.......it will probably set you free, just like you said! 8)

Are they hurting you or are you hurting you by allowing their stuff in your head?  By spending your precious time thinking about their behaviour and feeling stuff/reacting to it??

I was thinking about this a lot last night.  I think (get ready.......this is a doozy.... :shock: :shock:):

I think we might alll have a similar problem!!! :shock: :shock:

and that is:

our difficulty accepting that we must banish those who hurt us .....from our heads/brains/minds......for the very most part.........

and excavate them/their behaviour/the pain we've experienced because of them, scrape out just about everything that bugs us about them.....debride the rotting fleshy crap that's accumulated in there and

STOP ourselves from reacting to any more of their garbage.  IGNOR becomes our primary reaction!!

Not an easy task but it just seems to me that once done........there will be waaaaaaaay more peace within.

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I just want to know it and not have to analyse any more.

Maybe analysing is actually a sign of recovering?  Maybe, before this....you might have said:

"Ok (in a cute, high pitch tone), I'll call" and immediately dialed the number, without even questioning what you were doing or why? 

It seems like you've recognized something is out of place, fairly quickly...and that's a good thing!  Now that you're alert...your thoughts soar and emotions kick in....... and that's ok too.  But.....even better would maybe be:

Notice.  Alert.  Aware.  Choose not to react.  Ignor???

I don't know.  It's not like I'm a master at it!!!(hahahahahaha!!  I'm not a master at anything and proud of it!!!! :D)

 
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Dear superior being, please give me patience and give it to me NOW  :D

Hahahahahahaha!!!  Heeheeheeheehee!  I ask for this every day!!!  I'll never have enough!!! Or fast enough!!!

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I don’t want her turning up on the doorstep again.

If you really think calling her will prevent this from happening.......then go ahead and call, even though I bet you don't really want to.

My best guess is......you can't control her.  I think....she'll do whatever she decides to do and you have no power over that.  She may show up on your doorstep, regardless, if she feels like it...and you can't stop her.

YOU CAN ONLY CONTROL HOW YOU REACT TO THIS STUPID STUFF OF THEIRS.

Am I right or am I right?????????????? :D :D :D

never mind.  for once....I might be right.  (Or else I'm cracked eh? :? :roll: :mrgreen:)

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The thing is, I don’t vent, I don’t hit out, I listen. I listen to endless dross about superficial rubbish and they feel better.


If she calls or shows up and you don't have time or feel like doing this......and you decide not to...........

if you decide to ignor her and get on with whatever you intended to do...........which you can do politely.......no need to hurt anyone......the good news is................................no one will die.

 :D :D

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Maybe there's a third option of evicting her from your cranium and actually feeeeeeling good.

Amen Brother Mud!

 :D Sela
« Last Edit: January 11, 2006, 09:50:43 AM by Sela »

Hopalong

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Re: Growing up in public
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2006, 04:51:22 PM »
Hey Portia,
To me, this whole thing is a dazzling (and so helpful) discussion of the enormous power of a guilt trip.
Underneath all the fury is probably the worst self-punishment...all that reacting comes from an "unhealthy guilt" place.

Maybe if we can get rid of shame through tons of compassion for ourselves, making a call, or ignoring a manipulative request...

ust won't work us up like that.

I
do
not
like
shame

I heard once that "normal" guilt is okay, since we all need it. It just alerts us to "Oh, I've made a mistake. Now I'll do what I can to amend it. "
But toxic shame is the feeling, whether you did or did not make a mistake, "I am the mistake."

Plus, being pressured to contact your mother has a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge weight of cultural pressure and expectation behind it. So maybe on some gut level, the internal battle is with your conscious knowledge that you're being manipulated and you reject that part of it, but then there's also the other part, the programmed daughter who can't help pipe up, "Well who refuses to just make a phone call to their mother? Why's it such a big deal?"

I think guilt trips like that can trigger big-deal shame, even when our brains know it's truly undeserved. And when we feel shamed, we feel infuriated, because toxic shame represents a violation of our sense of ourselves, which is fragile.

So we have to fight really hard for ourselves.

Like, maybe you weren't just fighting off a phone call. You were fighting off a huge guilt trip.

You WON just by battling it all through so consciously, I think.
Now, whatever you, call back or don't bother---you really have done it CONSCIOUSLY. Good on you.

One more thought. I think children of Ns sometimes desperately want choices to become black and white, because N's psyches are such a ghoulish shade of gray.

But gray's also normal. Some ambivalence is just human.
I mean, there's no perfect answer. There's just a good-enough one. (The one you choose will be good enough.)

Hugs,
Hopalong

"That'll do, pig, that'll do."