Choices & how to teach your daughter about the facts of life....

[Portia]

Is there a space to post? Are you typing? Oh the ant-ic-i-pa-TION!

I've been thinking why I apologise.... and you know, I think it's because I've spent the last 30 years listening to him, and because of how I feel about him, then I think others won't want to listen to me drone on and on and on about this.  Does that make any sense? 

Absolute sense to me. I love listening to you. Many others do too, so it’s not just me! That’s closer to reality. See? Lots of people think you’re interesting and intelligent. If one person doesn’t, what are you going to think about yourself? Are you going to agree with the one person, or with the many? It’s your choice. You can choose to trust other people and when you trust others, you trust yourself more. You *know* that you are close to reality in what you say above. It makes sense. It’s a sensible opinion to think that you’ve been conditioned to believe something that isn’t, in FACT, true. The fact is: we’re listening to you. Because we want to. Nobody is forcing us. Therefore what can you infer? That we like it. Therefore ….. you are interesting. FACT! Haha.

I do apologise more because I feel people have better things to do... though I suppose if people did have better things to do, they wouldn't respond.  Hmmmmm.

BINGO
And even better, in listening and talking to you, I’m learning about myself!! It’s a (*wince*) win-win situation! Hahahahaha oh I don’t like those sales terms. But it’s true, I am learning. My step-dad did this mind-crap to me. “I have many faults” he said “being wrong is not one of them”. 

If we look the husband who get's potatoes every day even though he doesn't like them, he has a few choices, 1-to live with it, 2-to get someone who does not give him potatoes, or 3-to communicate to his wife he does like them so therefore change his inevitable potato eating days. 

Hahahaaaaaaaaa this is good!  :DYou’re funny H&H!
 
It ok saying there will be periods of unhappiness in all marriages, but you can do things to try and prevent unhappiness.... things like not taking your husband for granted, buying your husband little gifts every so often to show that you appreciate him, telling him you appreciate him and what he does, thanking him for doing things for you, making decisions together... by working at these things daily there is the possibility that you can prevent unhappiness.  But the husband will also need to work at it the same... I will hopefully be able to let you know if these work in 10 years time!  This is my idealistic view, but is still more realistic that your view.

All good solid stuff. Q: Idealistic? Or plain realistic? What do you think? There’s nothing wrong with you.

Of course it fell on deaf ears because he was right anyway....

Sorry H&H.  and i am sorry.

I’m thinking about your next para...

[Healing&Hopeful]

It's funny what you say about asking questions.... I was encouraged to ask questions so we can "listen and learn together".  Do you know what this means?  To him this means that I can ask questions which is fine as long as I come to the same conclusion as him.
 
Before I started this I thought he was odd... my H thought he was odd as well.  So my thinking was odd doesn't equal mentally unbalanced.... However, yes I do think he's in another reality and yes Portia, I do think he's irrational.  But then I think
 
What bugs me.... most of it bugs me.  It really seems to matter to me with his saying about divorce.  Your natural parents should stay together because they know best, that they are best people to bring you up... and then I think comparing me to an animal.... yeah, great that he thinks that but it didn't happen... they split up and now because HE didn't bring me up I didn't get the best apparently.  He has no idea what it was like for me... he never had to juggle his parents and he hasn't even got enough empathy to begin to understand what it was like for me.  He doesn't know what I like or dislike, he doesn't know who I am, he doesn't know my sense of humour.
 
The bit about self control and sexual urges I find very scary.... he has to control his urges?  Why? 
 
What matters to me is that instead of feeling sorry for him, I find him mental and scary.... It bugs me that there is nothing I can do about it, it bugs me that he's never been a dad to me and bugs me even more that he blames me for that.  The way he is, who he is BUGS ME! xx

[Healing&Hopeful]

  You do make me laugh hon.... loved the bit about posts out of sinc.

You said on your other post about wanting to be a stand up commedian... You should do it.  I have a standard joke with a friend who says "You should try everything once"... after a few wines it can be a very funny conversation... you know crossing dressing, transvestite etc 

All good solid stuff. Q: Idealistic? Or plain realistic? What do you think? There’s nothing wrong with you
I was thinking it may be idealistic because probably every marriage does have periods of unhappiness... but hopefully realistic enough that me and H would get through it... 

I wouldn't say there was nothing wrong with me, however it's a shame they don't provide confidence in tablet form 

Luckily (God knows how!), I think my belief system is ok.... hurrah!

[Portia]

there is a very warped logic in there...
Oh yes. Too much warp-factor illogic for me to read it all properly! I need you to tell me what’s important. I can’t handle all his stuff, honestly. (Sorry) It’s too weird and it makes me angry.

and 2. (and I'm not sure about this... but) Is he blaming me for giving him pototoes in the first place?  
Q. Were you the first person to feed him pots? Ever in his life?

Yes, he says it's his fault for not saying, but is he saying it's my fault as his wife for giving him pototoes?  
Not sure if he’s blaming the giver or not. As you say, the logic is warped. I *know* (I trust my perception) that the logic is warped, so I tend to ignore what he says. It’s irrelevant to me. It’s nonsense. It’s nuts. Unhealthy.

is he saying it's my fault as his wife

when were you his wife?...wait P...

This is where I'm getting really confused... And if he does say in a silly story that I'm "his wife"... is this sort of how he sees me?  

Right, okay. Is he saying that you’re his wife? Is he actually saying that? I’m going to read his stuff again. This is important, maybe, perhaps. I need to check the facts. I need to check exactly what he said up thar over the page. Then I’ll come back.

Is this emotional incest?  Or do I just sound like a fruit loop?

Okay, I’ll be Frank, you can be Betty okay? From some of the things you’ve told us, or me, there is no doubt in my mind that your father has had an unhealthy relationship with you, always. There are things you’ve said which point to his relating to you in a sexualised way. When parents do that to their kids, it’s emotional incest. The potato thing is just one key to that. There are others. What’s important is what is important to you. The things that you find important – niggling, nonsensical things maybe – are your brain giving you a nudge. Your brain says “Look at this! This matters!”. Doesn’t matter if it’s about potatoes or about the little silver paper horse at the end of the film Blade Runner (still with me?) – if it’s lurching up out of your unconscious, it matters.

I wonder what you dream about! What does your unconscious want you to look at?

Trotting off to page 1 (that paper horse is in my head!)  trot trot, trot trot...

[Healing&Hopeful]

Ok... going through it all....

The bit about choices at the beginning is ok.... this is just his black and white thinking.  Right or wrong, no grey area.

The bible bit.... I'm not hugely religious so this is just what he wants to believe.
This is becasue the devil is in charge, and wants you to live against God's teachings - This bit, to me, just shows that he's delusional.

This 'life' comes from a man and woman having sex. (Don't complicate the issue with artificial inscemination etc) To continue life, this 'sex drive' is very powerful, the most powerful urge we have. It is an irritional urge, as it means intense pain for the woman, and years of hard labour caring for his family for the man.
This bothers me.... it bothers me because his thinking is irrational, but also bothers me he thinks the sex drive is the most powerful urge we have.  If he thinks it's so powerful and irrational, he could be like a time bomb.  This frightens me.

So why is it important for the man and woman to stay together to bring up their children?
The birth of an animal, no matter what species, or the means of it's conception obeys the laws of this universe. It is made up of atoms, and the DNA forms the map the atoms follow, to make the being/creature.
From being born, animals learn the skills for life. This is different for every animal, and often different for each indivual animal of each species. The best teachers are their natural parents. This is because usually ( I think) the majority of the genes come from these 2 animals.
So the best teachers, the ones who understand you the best, are your natural mother and father
This bothers me because of the majority of genes coming from these two animals.... this bothers me because he is saying you are part of me.  This is probably the one bit I would like to deny.... I wish I didn't look like him, and I wish I wasn't related to him.  It bothers me because he thinks your natural mother and father are the ones who understand you best and he doesn't know me at all.

This is why divorce is wrong (in most cases). When you decide (yes, your own decision) that you have found someone who will make an acceptable, and suitable 'mate' (this is what we do when we see someone we like) it is important that when you give in to your sexual urges (the reason for self control) it is with the person you are prepared to spend the rest of your life with. Because any offspring will need the skill, and knowledge of their natural parents to give them the best chance of success.
This bothers me because of the sexual urges and the reason for self control.... this also bothers me because he thinks any offspring (i.e. Me) will need his skill and knowledge.  It bothers me because he thinks he has something to offer me to give me the best chance of success.

I did make a mistake having a relationship with ????. I was in need of a friend, and I do miss human contact (mainly hugs) but do not really miss having sex. This left me in a vulnerable position, able to make mistakes easily. As I have already told you, I do believe I would find my 'soulmate' and after doing so, and 'making love' as opposed to having sex, means there is absolutely no point in sex with anyone else.
This bothers me because I don't see why he felt the need to tell me he missed having sex.  I'm 30 years old, why the need to tell me about making love and sex?

I will not discuss the relationship to your mother, simply because it is in the past, and there is no changing it. I disagree that we were equally to blame, although of course I take responsibility for some of the blame. Mainly I did not listen to people (some friends etc) who said I was wrong to marry her. They could see things better than I could.
This shows his irrational thoughts again.  It bothers me though because he wouldn't discuss it.... maybe I need to hear about it, hear why they split up, hear why they hate each other.

And from what I understand you were violent to her once also and slapped her.  I will just explain this. I was never violent to her as such, but if I remember correctly, I was trying to get her to answer a question, with either yes or no. She refused point blank, keeping silent, so to get her to talk I poked her with my fist, but because I was so angry I did it too hard. This was while I was lying in bed alongside her and was sideways.
This again is just his irrational thoughts.  This bothers me in a way, because he's justifying hitting Mum... which in turn could have related to the physical abuse she dealt me.  I think the physical abuse from Mum was part of her anger again him.

Please do not talk to her about our relationship, as this is in the past and will do no good whatsoever. I can't stress this enough.
This doesn't bother me... I think the don't talk to her about it was because I know that he was violent to her, but obviously he has to do whatever it takes so I don't confront his version of events.

Yes my views are idealistic, but just because others do things wrongly is no reason for me not to try to do them properly. As to being happy, or unhapply, well that is down to both people. There will be periods of unhappiness in all marriages, and again it is down to both people to take every means possible to solve the problem, and so make the marriage happy again.
This doesn't bother me.... this is possibly the most normal (ok, it's not quite normal but normal compared to the rest for him) thing in this email. 

So just to sum up (and please don't get angry if this is not accurate, or you think it wrong) you get angry and frustrated with me, and think that is because I have clinical depression, and will do nothing about it. I think you now know this is not the case, and I genuinely cannot work, because of a combination of small things, not one large one. The degenerative disc limits the kind of work I can do, most of which I am not qualified for, or have any experience.
This doesn't bother me.... I may find this bit refreshing because although he goes on about his degenerative disc, he is admitting he can't work because of a combination of small things.  It's another lie to himself though because I'm beginning to see that he has rather large mental problems.

So you need to be looking for other causes for your feelings. Some of this may be down to the fact of you being my daughter, and my father had almost exactly the same feelings for me. This is what I mean when I say you take after him. Linda said when I entered the room, he changed from a nice person to something else. It was inexplicable.
This bothers me because it is just blaming me.

[Healing&Hopeful]

My step-dad did this mind-crap to me. “I have many faults” he said “being wrong is not one of them”.

I HATE this saying Portia.... It is one of the most hypicritical useless sayings around.  (sarcasm) Yes I have faults however I'm not wrong so I don't have any!  Stoopid!

[Portia]

I just scanned your last post. Good stuff. I’m going to read it properly later. It’s great H&H. In the meantime, here’s some more.

Ohhhhh it hurts my head reading his stuff! 

This 'life' comes from a man and woman having sex. (Don't complicate the issue with artificial inscemination etc) To continue life, this 'sex drive' is very powerful, the most powerful urge we have. It is an irritional urge, as it means intense pain for the woman, and years of hard labour caring for his family for the man.

Can I just say: bollocks. Not only is this just soooo…ooo..STUPID and childish and uninformed and preachy crap, it’s also not appropriate from a father to daughter. And he talks to you as if you’re about 10. It’s so patronising.

So the best teachers, the ones who understand you the best, are your natural mother and father.

This is such simplistic bullshit!  :mrgreen:This is making me so annoyed it’s almost funny! God help us. It’s also manipulative: “who understand you best” yeah babe! I know how your brain works! I understand you best so therefore I know what’s best for you! BRAINWASHING TECHNIQUE . Oops sorry. Getting too annoyed.

Okay..
A very simple and silly example. Suppose I don't like potatoes (any food) but I say I do to please you (my wife). You give me potatoes to eat everyday, so I am unhappy as I don't like them. That is my fault, and I should live with it, not get someone else who does not give me potatoes.

I tried to read from the top, all of it, to this point (have to admit I struggled to read every line, it’s just too mind-warpingly bad) and I got to this and I thought, no, correction, I felt it. Yeah. I agree with you H&H, this is off-kilter. Something is wrong with (my wife). It doesn’t make sense. Why did he specify?

This is really weird. Can you find the post where you talked about the potato thing? Do I remember correctly? That he was annoyed with you, for feeding him (mashed??) potatoes? Can you tell me about that again? perleeease???



In the meantime, some more. But please, I’m fascinated by that potato thing. Is that sad or what? haha that I'm fascinated!

It's funny what you say about asking questions.... I was encouraged to ask questions so we can "listen and learn together".

Ohhhh eeeewwwwwwww! ICKY ICKY ICKY. Boundary violation! You’re the child, he’s the parent! He’s not supposed to learn with you, at least he’s not supposed to say so. That makes you the parent to him!

Do you know what this means?  To him this means that I can ask questions which is fine as long as I come to the same conclusion as him.
Yes I know. It’s a one-way street. With no escape.

Before I started this I thought he was odd... my H thought he was odd as well.  So my thinking was odd doesn't equal mentally unbalanced.... However, yes I do think he's in another reality and yes Portia, I do think he's irrational.  But then I think

Okay what do you think mentally unbalanced means? I think I was mentally unbalanced until I came here. Not ‘insane’ but definitely off-balance, not ‘healthy’. Lots of people ‘function’ in society but that doesn’t mean they’re all at the same place in their heads. Functioning is eating, sleeping, washing, holding down a job or getting money and managing it. We can go home and chew the carpet and we won’t be thought insane. A little unusual in our eating habits perhaps. All I mean is there’s a range, a spectrum of mental ‘health’ and your Dad is not where you are. One view of insanity is that it’s not knowing the difference between what’s in your head, and what’s not in your head – hearing voices, seeing things that everyone else doesn’t see etc. Your Dad’s views about ‘reality’ and ‘facts’ are a little off the norm.

What bugs me.... most of it bugs me.  It really seems to matter to me with his saying about divorce.  Your natural parents should stay together because they know best, that they are best people to bring you up... and then I think comparing me to an animal.... yeah, great that he thinks that but it didn't happen... they split up and now because HE didn't bring me up I didn't get the best apparently. 

This is twisting the facts the suit his own inflated image of himself. He’s twisting facts. He’s denying your true reality, your true childhood, your self. Is it any wonder he bugs you? Do you have a right to your own version of your childhood? Or do you simply exist only in the way that he sees you?

He has no idea what it was like for me... he never had to juggle his parents and he hasn't even got enough empathy to begin to understand what it was like for me.  He doesn't know what I like or dislike, he doesn't know who I am, he doesn't know my sense of humour.

I’m sorry but you know you’re right. I know it hurts and it makes me angry.

The bit about self control and sexual urges I find very scary.... he has to control his urges?  Why? 
Because he’s fucked up, to be blunt for a change. Are you scared that he’s saying his sexual urges might have overflowed a little in your direction, in his head, if not actually in reality? This communication with you IN ITSELF is crossing boundaries. Fathers don’t discuss sexual urges with their daughters. Do they?

  :Dear Board members: I need some feedback here. Do healthy, loving fathers ever discuss sexual urges with their daughters? I need a reality check please.

What matters to me is that instead of feeling sorry for him, I find him mental and scary
I find him mental and scary. Seriously. Who said you have to feel sorry for him? Do you feel sorry for you?

.... It bugs me that there is nothing I can do about it
You can change your mind. You can keep thinking about it. You can change yourself. You can change your attitude towards him. You can not care quite so much. All this is do-able!

, it bugs me that he's never been a dad to me
 

 and bugs me even more that he blames me for that. 
Yeah, well, I’m inclined towards castration  and forehead tattooes for parents who behave like this to their kids. I kind of run out of patience and tolerance and all that good stuff. I sort of lean towards annihilation at this point.

The way he is, who he is BUGS ME!
I’m not surprised. You know, it’s not your fault that he bugs you. It’s not because you’re ‘wrong’ or ‘unbalanced’. We treat children a certain way and it’s a case of cause and effect. You are bothered by him because of who he is and who he was to you when you were young. You can’t help it. But you can think about it and challenge some of your childhood beliefs – such as believing that you’re not interesting enough to listen to!

Potatoes. Enquiring minds want to know!  See you anon, P

[Portia]

This is becasue the devil is in charge, and wants you to live against God's teachings -
This bit, to me, just shows that he's delusional.

Many people might not agree with you here! But I do. In my opinion, he’s delusional. I’m entitled to my opinion, and so are you. But some people do believe that the devil is in charge. They’re entitled to their opinions. I’m just talking with you here, and you’re talking to me. Anything wrong with that? That’s one of those rhetorical questions.

This bothers me.... it bothers me because his thinking is irrational, but also bothers me he thinks the sex drive is the most powerful urge we have.  If he thinks it's so powerful and irrational, he could be like a time bomb.  This frightens me.
Yah. It bothers me too. I don’t like it one bit.

this bothers me because he is saying you are part of me. 
Some people don’t actually think their children are separate beings. He seems to be one of these. He thinks you are part of him. You’re not. You have some basic genes, but you have your own feelings and thoughts. He can't process that idea.

This is probably the one bit I would like to deny.... I wish I didn't look like him, and I wish I wasn't related to him.  It bothers me because he thinks your natural mother and father are the ones who understand you best and he doesn't know me at all.

Yep. When we’re faced with lies (I know you best) from those who had a profound impact on us, we can go into does-not-compute confusion. Our little kiddie brains – and we do still have them – fight against out big adult brains. Our kiddie brains say: “yes, you’re my dad, you MUST understand me, protect me, love me” but our adult brains argue and say “but you don’t know ‘me’ at all! This is nonsense!” and the two brains get locked in a panicky confusion. How can my loving Daddy not understand me – and do it so badly? And why should I – a big grown-up person – even care? Those hard-wired beliefs from childhood are very difficult to change. You’re well on the road to changing them. It hurts though. Hurting is good! Hurting = change.

This bothers me because of the sexual urges and the reason for self control.... this also bothers me because he thinks any offspring (i.e. Me) will need his skill and knowledge.  It bothers me because he thinks he has something to offer me to give me the best chance of success.
I’m having really quite sick thoughts about all this. It may just be my experience coming through so I won’t write them down. But they are sick and twisted and sexual.

This bothers me because I don't see why he felt the need to tell me he missed having sex.  I'm 30 years old, why the need to tell me about making love and sex?
You know what? I don’t think you should spend time alone with your dad, should the occasion ever happen. Just to be on the very safe (paranoid) side.

It bothers me though because he wouldn't discuss it.... maybe I need to hear about it, hear why they split up, hear why they hate each other.
I need to hear all that about my folks too. I need to hear that it wasn’t my fault. All kids of divorced parents think it’s their fault, unless some person tells the otherwise.

This bothers me in a way, because he's justifying hitting Mum... which in turn could have related to the physical abuse she dealt me.  I think the physical abuse from Mum was part of her anger again him.

Oh I’m so sorry. Poor little H&H with no-one to care for you, no-one who damn well protected you. Yeah, your mum probably did transfer her anger with him onto you. Where the hell did that leave you? Who took care of you? I'm both sad and angry about all this.

he has to do whatever it takes so I don't confront his version of events
bravo. I think you’re right.

Yes my views are idealistic, but just because others do things wrongly is no reason for me not to try to do them properly. As to being happy, or unhapply, well that is down to both people. There will be periods of unhappiness in all marriages, and again it is down to both people to take every means possible to solve the problem, and so make the marriage happy again.
This doesn't bother me.... this is possibly the most normal (ok, it's not quite normal but normal compared to the rest for him) thing in this email.

Wait. just because others do things wrongly is no reason for me not to try to do them properly. This is a joke!!!! HE did wrong. HE hit his wife. HE ignored his daughter. Not ‘others’ – him. 

This bothers me because it is just blaming me.
Blaming our children for our shortcomings is EVIL. And I don’t like to use the word evil, but in some cases it kind of works. *Just* blaming you? Would you do this to your children?

That’s the point. Would you do this to your children? Would you allow your lovely hubby to treat your daughter like this? Might throw a perspective on it.

Hey I gotta go. I’ve enjoyed talking today.  I’m learning about me too. Potatoes.  ((((((H&H))))))

[Healing&Hopeful]

Portia.... you have said stuff to this that I wanted to say... you said bullshit and bollocks.  That is what I think, but am too polite to say it... but it's sooooooo true!!!  Thank you, thank you, thank you!

Mentally unbalanced... Functioning is eating, sleeping, washing, holding down a job or getting money and managing it. - yes he functions.  Can't hold down a job, but he manages money, he eats, he sleeps, he exists, he functions.  He's also lazy and idle and will get anyone to do something for him if they will do it.  It pees him off big style that he has to look after himself... he goes on and on about if he doesn't look after himself, no one else will.  All emotional manipulation....  But if we call him mentally unbalanced, what does that mean?  He's still not going to change... he said to me in one email that he was unable to change, not unwilling, unable.  Then a load more bollocks about God made him this way blah blah blah.  That would change that for me.... I think mentally unbalanced people can change, so it's probably more of a case that he doesn't want to change.

Regarding the post with the potato thing.... Do you mean where he kicked me out?  That was beans on toast... you know, he might have let me stay if I made him mashed pototoes (joke!)

I used to feel sorry for him, before all this.  I used to feel sorry for him because he didn't get on with his dad and I could see how it hurt him.... I used to feel sorry for him because I thought he didn't have much luck in life... but it was only because he was using emotional manipulation... Now I can see a lot of what has happened to him is his own self doing.  How can you feel sorry for someone who has brought a lot of it on themselves with their blaming and manipulation?  I don't think I feel sorry for me.... Ok, I got dealt some poor parents... shit happens doesn't it?  I still live a more full life than either of my parents, so why feel sorry for me?

The sexual stuff is f*cked up.... and what happens to people with f*ucked up sexual thoughts who feel they have to control them with self control.  I'm not worried about me.... I worried about the next person he encounters.  His ex was 15 when he was 37.... he doesn't have any boundaries there.  Do you know what I mean?

Anyway.... I'm going to have to hop off, tootle loo for now.... Look forward to hearing your thoughts.

H&H xx

[Hop guest]

((((((((((H &H))))))))))))) and (((((((((((((Portia))))))))))))

I would give my TEETH to be able to sit in a pub (dang, we don't have pubs) with the two of you and talk for hours. (Well, I might dribble my beer if I had no teeth.)

H & H, just a couple things:
DITTO DITTO every single syllable Portia said about you being interesting and wonderful to listen to and how if anybody didn't want to respond they wouldn't. You are a treasure, your process is a teaching for everyone and I respect you enormously. I love you and learn from you!

I have ZERO question in my mind whatsoever that your father does and says things to you that are/were full of incestuous overtones. All I needed to learn was one thing, some time back: HE TRIED TO GET YOU TO DATE HIS ADULT FRIENDS. Full stop. All of these subtler icky-feeling (ditto the listen to and respect your inner ick-meter!) things he does, like "lecture" you about sex while at the same time because he wrote it and you were reading it (innocently, trying to have a dialogue before you wised up)--he was thereby forcing you to imagine his "sexual urges" etc...It is all just part of the same package. [I doubt he's dangerous, btw, I think he's pathetic. And toxic. And sexualizes you as an object and doesn't have a clue how inappropriate he is. He's probably turning to you--ICK!!!--to talk about sex because no other female is willing to listen. He probably sets of ick-radar in any healthy woman.]

A disordered, invasive man who does not have any sense of appropriate boundaries with his daughter. It really doesn't matter that it's verbal (lots of Ns are so slick verbally)--what matters is the content. And it's inappropriate private revelations about sex (twisted around RELIGION, no less), and intrusive remarks, and just plain LIES. (Loved the remark about your natural parents "knowing you best." Right. He doesn't know a damn thing that matters about you. And he never will because--please forgive me if this sounds cruel---he's honestly not interested in you, H&H. You're just an ear (Ns are desperate for listeners, remember), and he has believed that he had a "right" to engage your attention. Never mind what it cost you, that wouldn't cross his mind...

(Yes, a healthy father could offer tactfully expressed wisdom about sexual matters to his daughter. But not a man who tried to pimp her to his friends and who tries to invade her head and who is a raving N.)

I also found it interesting he FORBADE you to discuss hiim with your mother. I don't think it matters if you do or not. But what's important is to notice that HE'S TELLING YOU WHAT TO DO. Nope. You are an adult and he has no right to tell you what you may say or not say to anyone. Ever.

And my last wisdom for this post is this:
AN ADULT MAN CAN COOK HIS OWN DAMN TURNIPS.

Was I shouting? Sorry.

XXOO,
Hopalong

[Portia]

HE'S TELLING YOU WHAT TO DO. Nope. You are an adult and he has no right to tell you what you may say or not say to anyone. Ever.

Absolutely fantastic!  I think I need to really consider this very carefully, myself!  

Great big honest huge-hearted post Hop. You can dribble in my beer anytime! Okay, but if you do, you're gonna have to drink it okay? I got me some boundaries these days. haha bye all

[Healing&Hopeful]

((((((((((((Hoppy)))))))))))))))) & ((((((((((((((((((Portia))))))))))))))))))))

You can't beat a good english pub... roaring fires and a glass of wine.  And I can't think of two better people to be sat with...

Wonder what you call someone who gives out emotional incest... emotional incester, heck if you've got more than one... a gaggle of emotional incesters 

Late last year CeeMee said something to me (and I'm sure she won't mind that I'm bringing it up now, but sorry if you do CeeMee)... she said about feeling that gut wrenching anger.  I've never felt it, but I can feel it starting.... it's starting in the pit of my stomach.

How dare he use me?  As if I'm a thing!  How dare he use the emotional manipulation and incest on me?  I am here, I am alive and I am now... I am NOT here for his gain... that is NOT my only reason for existing.

Hoppy you hit the nail on the head with something... it was this... And he never will because--please forgive me if this sounds cruel---he's honestly not interested in you, H&H. You're just an ear..... How silly of me for thinking he was interested?  How can he be interested in me?  To be interested would mean he would have to put me first, even for half an hour.

I have to go now.... but I'll be back....

H&H xx

[Healing&Hopeful]

Actually.... I've been doing more reading of the emails.... and last year I suggested he asked me two questions about myself in each email he sent, because I felt he wasn't interested in me.

Here's his response:-
Why on earth do you think I'm not interested in you? You are the only family I've got. Any relationship requires commitment, and work from both parties....not one always giving in to the other. It is a 'partnership' requiring give and take from both people. There is a saying 'do unto others, as you would have them do to you'. This however can lead to problems, as people want different things.

I once said to someone I was ok when people got to know me. I was given the answer 'yes, but why should they bother'. I learnt from that, in fact as usual it's easy to be wise after the event

I suppose I volunteer information, instead of waiting for people to ask. This of course could be why you mistakenly think I'm not interested in others. I expect them to do the same. I'm also an open, and honest person, with nothing (or little) to hide.

So tell me about yourself. After all, when you think about it, I've really seen very little of you, apart from when you were here. Is there any wonder we were strangers, who couldn't understand one another when you came.

And this is the one from the next day....
Hil - you say I need a job. Well get me a job like yours, that I can email my friends while getting paid <grin>. I can do that from home of course.

I know you like, and are interested in food. It's just I find life has so much to offer, and so many interesting things to do, that I've never really had time to bother much with the delights of eating.

As to the boating. I also understand (probably because I am your Father) how you can't swim, and don't like water. There is a way (the posh name is Systamatic Desensitisation) to get used to things that frighten you, or you are mentally unable to do. For instance I was unable to walk past the factory entrance on Waterside North after I had to leave. I did however want to go past on a boat. I think this stems from all the days walking back, especially on a sunny day, when I longed for a boat to come past, and invite me aboard, to stop me having to go back inside the hated place.

However, having the boat I often talked to people at the lock at Bardney. One day, I saw someone who I knew in the lock at Stamp End, and walked round to see them. This was from the other end of the road, near Lincs FM. I walked back into town past the gates. This took some doing, but I had to go into town to the market stall (despite what you think, some days it is difficult for me to walk too far, or I suffer if I do) and it was a long way to walk back around and over the bridge. Soon I was walking past daily, as there is now a footpath alonside the river up to the Lock. It took about a year, but I can now walk past without making myself do it, or even thinking about it. Ken's wife is the same as you, and it took a little nerve from her, and helping hands from us at first to get on the boat, but now she likes it, although doesn't move about.

I know it is difficult with divorced parents.......one reason I do not believe in divorce. It's another thing I'm 'different'. I do not believe the view 'just because you have children you should have to sacrifice your life'. Once you have children, your life comes second BUT the children have to respect you, and your views. This is the main reason for most of societies ills today.

As I've already told you. You don't have to worry about me seeing them at your wedding.  I'm not too bothered about tradition, and I've enough strength of character now, not to worry what people think of me, however unfair that might be.

Seeing councillors etc. is ok, but only really any good if both people, or parties see them. They need to be the mediator, to explain to the other person, or persons. The problem with this is, often the guilty party i.e. the one causing the problem will not accept the facts, or the solution. They will not accept they are the one at fault.

Talking of celebrities, personally I don't think there is any such thing. Tony Curtis once said in an interview when he was asked if he was working 'I don't work, work is digging a ditch'. Acting and singing is something you do for entertainment, after your 'proper' job. That is not to say it doesn't take a lot of skill, or talent, or that it is not hard work.

So, to go back to the start. Writing is work, so writing this email is work. The only difference is you get paid to write to me, but I have to do it for nothing. Did you know, your employer can have you charged with theft, theft of time. I hastily add, I think this is right, but am not totally sure. You see, I still work 24 hours a day, it's just I don't get paid for it <grin>.


There's several things in this.... he said to me previous to this that I should go boating so I would have a new interest.

The counsellor bit gets me now.  When I first read this, I thought maybe he does realise he's at fault, however I can see now that this sentence is about me, the guilty party, not accepting that I am at fault.

[Healing&Hopeful]

And he never will because--please forgive me if this sounds cruel---he's honestly not interested in you, H&H. You're just an ear (Ns are desperate for listeners, remember),

PS: I am now imagining us all a large ears with little arms and legs! 

[Portia]

Ayyyyeeeee! Hiya H&H, well my my. Have I got some way to go. My wee inner child is kicking and screaming, red in face with anger. Hot tears running down her face with the sheer intolerable arrogance, shamelessness, grandiosity, and downright cruelty your father heaps your way.

The adult me is sitting here stony-faced with lips pressed together. Taking a deep breath or two. 

Don’t think I’m ready to reply yet; way too much anger at your dad and I’m not sure demonstrating my anger is gonna help you!

Some thoughts. Have you read John Bradshaw ‘Homecoming’? I started reading it again last night and found myself in tears reading the introduction.  But then I do cry more these days, which can only be good.

feeling that gut wrenching anger.  I've never felt it, but I can feel it starting.... it's starting in the pit of my stomach.

Anger like this is wonderful. Let it come. Note: my partner has often commented that my self-therapy seems to be causing me more pain, should I be doing it etc. All good-natured comments BUT it doesn’t help me. I know I have to do what I have to. No pain – no gain, no healing without suffering. Anger is a huge key. Anyway, if in doubt: trust yourself, trust your emotions.

How dare he use me?  As if I'm a thing!  How dare he use the emotional manipulation and incest on me?  I am here, I am alive and I am now... I am NOT here for his gain...
Yay!

that is NOT my only reason for existing
It is not a reason at all. It’s a perversion from nature. Your reason to exist is to exist. In fact, you don’t need any reason. You exist. Welcome to the world! 

Babies are born, welcomed into the world, loved, cherished, held and cuddled and smiled at simply because they bring joy to their parents. Their parents love them simply because they are. By being in the world, they make the world a better place. All babies! Babies are wonderful. I love babies!

Some of us are born to parents who don’t do those things. They don’t give us the unconditional love we need.

Instead they use us. Use is abuse.

Q. How does it feel to be an adult abused child? How does that label feel?

(All feelings are okay. Shame is okay. Guilt is okay, anger is okay. Icky is good. It’s what we do with them that matters.)

Maybe I’ll ask you what you think of that stuff of his above. When you’ve got time, have a pick through it and tell us what you think and feel about it. Take it line by line if you wish! I could. I’m ready to demolish it!