Choices & how to teach your daughter about the facts of life....

[Healing&Hopeful]

I was reading through some stuff from bio dad and I thought I'd share this with you.... it's how to teach your daughter about relationships and make sure she never mentions anything of past relationships to the other party.... Now I have read up what I have read about N's, this is quite an insight!  Also I haven't cut out any of it.... You have to smile, don't you 


As you have said, we often have to make many choices, and it can be very difficult to make the correct choice. In fact it is fair to say we will not always make the correct choice, and will be wrong some of the time.

There are 2 places in the bible, which are specifics, leave us with only one choice. However it is wrong to try to explain, or understand without knowing the whole story, so to speak. This is called taking things out of context. So until you have read and try to understand all of the bible (this takes years, maybe more than a lifetime) you will never understand properly. This is why we have 'faith' i.e. taking things on trust, without fully understanding the reason, or reasons behind them.

I believe the bible to be a guide as to how we should live our lives. We don't need to know WHY we need to do this, although it does help us understand.

In this 'guide to life' you will find the 10 commandments. There are people today who say these don't apply. This is becasue the devil is in charge, and wants you to live against God's teachings.

Read Exodous chapter 20.
http://www.audio-bible.com/bible/bible.html
http://www.audio-bible.com/bible/exodus_20.html

And 1 Corinthians chapter 6 verses 9 and 10 in particular. To try not to take these out of context, this is where a deciple (I forget which one) is telling the people how they should live. It is very clear, and leaves little room for confusion.
http://www.audio-bible.com/bible/1_corinthians_6.html


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This is how I see it, so it could be argued it is my 'opinon' although I see it as just correctly interpreting the facts.

This is really about life, much of it relates to our relationships, and feeling for people...especially people of the opposite sex. I don't know, or profess to know what life is. I do know we (humans) have a 'magic' ingredient. We think; we reason. We are the only life (as far as we know) to do this.

This 'life' comes from a man and woman having sex. (Don't complicate the issue with artificial inscemination etc) To continue life, this 'sex drive' is very powerful, the most powerful urge we have. It is an irritional urge, as it means intense pain for the woman, and years of hard labour caring for his family for the man.

So why is it important for the man and woman to stay together to bring up their children?

The birth of an animal, no matter what species, or the means of it's conception obeys the laws of this universe. It is made up of atoms, and the DNA forms the map the atoms follow, to make the being/creature.

From being born, animals learn the skills for life. This is different for every animal, and often different for each indivual animal of each species. The best teachers are their natural parents. This is because usually ( I think) the majority of the genes come from these 2 animals.

So the best teachers, the ones who understand you the best, are your natural mother and father.

This is why divorce is wrong (in most cases). When you decide (yes, your own decision) that you have found someone who will make an acceptable, and suitable 'mate' (this is what we do when we see someone we like) it is important that when you give in to your sexual urges (the reason for self control) it is with the person you are prepared to spend the rest of your life with. Because any offspring will need the skill, and knowledge of their natural parents to give them the best chance of success.

So to say you have a choice to either make a go of it, or leave is wrong. You should say, if I decide to go with this person I will do whatever it takes to make it work, and the only way I will leave is when one of us dies. This is the reason for marriage, and the marriage vows. Just because it is popular opinion, or the view of society, to do otherwise is wrong. There are exceptions, nothing is that simple, but that should always be the objective of everyone.

I have always thought this, and can only be held accountable for my own actions, not the actions of others.

I did make a mistake having a relationship with ????. I was in need of a friend, and I do miss human contact (mainly hugs) but do not really miss having sex. This left me in a vulnerable position, able to make mistakes easily. As I have already told you, I do believe I would find my 'soulmate' and after doing so, and 'making love' as opposed to having sex, means there is absolutely no point in sex with anyone else.

I could go on for hours, but must stop now. You have plenty to think about anyway.

My Reply:-
I can't listen to these here because I'm at work, but have e-mailed them home so will listen to them at home.

Some choices are more important than other... Obviously my choice to marry future H is very important as is his to marry me.  We have also researched a fair amount of information so we hopefully don't become a statistic.  But this has come from both of us, we are both jointly responsible and involved.

You are right that it takes hard work but I do feel your views are idealistic and unfortunately, for whatever reasons which are beyond our control, we don't live in an idealistic world.  It is therefore more realistic for us to say "What do we want to achieve out of our marriage?"  And what will we do to accept and overcome changes which will happen?"  If both parties are open and flexible the marriage has quite a good chance, yet if one party is unbending and it's either their way or the highway it is difficult to achieve the desired result which is to have a long and happy marriage.

Let's look at your relationship with Mum even.  You met and married, but were you happy?  I know she wasn't so you are saying that it is better to stay unhappily married with someone you don't really love who says you are supposed to accept what they say and their ideas forever.  And from what I understand you were violent to her once also and slapped her.  I'm not saying she is not to blame but you were both mutually responsible for the breakdown but neither of you is right or wrong. 

Supposing you and Mum had stayed married, it is probable I would have been very different but this would have been due to seeing mum be very unhappy, and therefore I would have probably gone on to form unhappy relationships myself. 

This is why I feel your view is unrealistic and idealistic...


I agree with most of what you say, and I agree the choices are mine. The confusion came because, using common sense the correct choice is obvious, and so become no choice at all. So yes, you have won that argument.

I will not discuss the relationship to your mother, simply because it is in the past, and there is no changing it. I disagree that we were equally to blame, although of course I take responsibility for some of the blame. Mainly I did not listen to people (some friends etc) who said I was wrong to marry her. They could see things better than I could.

And from what I understand you were violent to her once also and slapped her.  I will just explain this. I was never violent to her as such, but if I remember correctly, I was trying to get her to answer a question, with either yes or no. She refused point blank, keeping silent, so to get her to talk I poked her with my fist, but because I was so angry I did it too hard. This was while I was lying in bed alongside her and was sideways.

Please do not talk to her about our relationship, as this is in the past and will do no good whatsoever. I can't stress this enough.

Yes my views are idealistic, but just because others do things wrongly is no reason for me not to try to do them properly. As to being happy, or unhapply, well that is down to both people. There will be periods of unhappiness in all marriages, and again it is down to both people to take every means possible to solve the problem, and so make the marriage happy again.

A very simple and silly example. Suppose I don't like potatoes (any food) but I say I do to please you (my wife). You give me potatoes to eat everyday, so I am unhappy as I don't like them. That is my fault, and I should live with it, not get someone else who does not give me potatoes.

Remember happiness is simply a state of mind, and can easily be changed. Your choice to be happy or not is often entirely up to you. Of course if you are a prisoner, and being tortured you will be unhappy. This again is common sense.

So just to sum up (and please don't get angry if this is not accurate, or you think it wrong) you get angry and frustrated with me, and think that is because I have clinical depression, and will do nothing about it. I think you now know this is not the case, and I genuinely cannot work, because of a combination of small things, not one large one. The degenerative disc limits the kind of work I can do, most of which I am not qualified for, or have any experience.

So you need to be looking for other causes for your feelings. Some of this may be down to the fact of you being my daughter, and my father had almost exactly the same feelings for me. This is what I mean when I say you take after him. Linda said when I entered the room, he changed from a nice person to something else. It was inexplicable.

[Portia]

So you need to be looking for other causes for your feelings. Some of this may be down to the fact of you being my daughter, and my father had almost exactly the same feelings for me. This is what I mean when I say you take after him.

Honey, this guy is dangerous....to my mental health, let alone yours! This is how I feel reading his tripe...          but for you

this stuff above....so he's saying:

Your feelings are caused by YOU being his daughter. It's your fault for being his daughter. Like it was his Dad's fault for being his Dad.

Your father of course is not responsible for influencing or affecting anyone. Sheeeeeeeesh.

He's not living in what some would call reality. And he crosses so many boundaries in his communication with you. The sex stuff is unforgivable. Emotional incest.

Is he still writing to you in these terms?

[Healing&Hopeful]

Hiya hon

He's not but only because I cut contact with him.... This is just some of what he said to me over email before I found out about Narcissism.

Don't you just love your parents? (Irony)

I've not really met anyone that understands about it... but it does help to share it where someone is not telling me to that I only have one dad and it's a shame we're not in touch.

H&H xx

[Portia]

I only have one dad and it's a shame we're not in touch

People will say this over and over. Some people might say it with real empathy, waiting for you to say "yeah, I feel sad about it but that's the way it is". But so few people it seems (?) are in tune with what goes on.

It is a shame of course, it is sad. You have every right to feel angry and sad about it. But relationships take at least two and he's incapable of a real relationship. That's why he's happier with an animal than with other humans. Yes it's sad. But you can't help that. Ditto me, I'm writing to myself as usual.

((((((H&H))))))

[miss piggy]

Hello H&H,

Holy Schmoly.  "I poked her too hard"?  "I was wrong to marry your mother...we should stay married...never mind the affair I had..."  Whatever!!

The shame is not in not staying in touch with a crazy man.  The shame is that your lot in life was to be born to a crazy man.  It is not your fault.  It just is. 

If there is a lesson, perhaps it is just to accept him for who he is.  By 'accept' I mean, we can accept the fact of who he is and go from there.  one cannot change him, one cannot have a relationship, one can choose to move on to more lifegiving people.  And that's OK.

I am sorry to read how he is/was messing with your head this way.  Ick.     MP

[Healing&Hopeful]

I think when I first got it, all I thought was NO.  No, that's not how it works, no that's not how it is.... but then I was looking at it rationally.

Did it make my head spin?  Yes, and it still does to some extent.

There is quite a lot of boundary hopping... the most disturbing one for me was the silly example... I don't like potatoes but said I do to please you (my wife)!!!!  I can't really describe how that makes me feel, but it's not nice.

His dad possibly did change when he entered the room.... however it's not inexplicable, it was his dad's reaction to him!  Just the same as it's my reaction to him.  He doesn't get it because there is something missing.... like a jigsaw puzzle with a piece missing.

I should have probably been warned by one of the first lines:-
This is how I see it, so it could be argued it is my 'opinon' although I see it as just correctly interpreting the facts
I feel this is n-ism at it's best.  I see it right because I've correctly interpretated the facts, however it could be argued as my opinion! Hmmmmm

And it brings to light another thing re: the icky hugs.... he misses hugs, not me.  He only hugged me for his own gain. 

I'm not sure if I accept him or not MP.  I am well aware he's not going to change and I'm aware that there's definitely something wrong with him.  Does that mean I've accepted him?  Or just accepted that he's not going to change and the problem is him?  If I haven't accepted him and still need to, what are the implications for me?  This might sound strange but what does it say about me to have a dad who's unable to have a relationship and that I don't contact?

H&Hxx

[Hopalong]

what does it say about me to have a dad who's unable to have a relationship and that I don't contact?

It just says that, hon.
Doesn't say anything about you at all.
Just the sad fact that he can't have a relationship (which is why you don't contact).

I'm pretty stunned by the ways he has used and sexualized you. I think accepting his attention and letting him own so much of your mental space (whether you contact or not) is hard...

Is it because attention from him was appealing because he wasn't doing what your mom did? (Do I remember right that it was only she who was physically abusive, and he was--IS--emotionally abusive?) I can certainly understand that if so, because it is a natural yearning, to have love from parents. Any parent. You certainly got cheated.

Hugs,
Hopalong

[Healing&Hopeful]

Hiya Hoppy

Yes, as you can probably tell from here, he is still occupying a lot of my mental space.

When I initially got into this, I hardly knew him... saw him about 3 times a year and 2 of them were birthday's and christmas.  His birthday obviously, not mine.  Because of getting married and having divorced parents, I split the roles out..... stepdad walk me down the isle and for him to do the speech.  All I was trying to do was be as fair as possible in the circumstances, but also fair to me.  Because he initially agreed to do the speech, I also thought the least I could do was make more of an effort and try and get to know him better.... and boy did I do that!

All this because I wanted something from my parents for one day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes you are right that Mum was physically abusive, and although she was controlling, compared to this it was a walk in the park.  I do think he's got worse over time though.  I guess you are right though because I was after some attention, but also some answers... I'd got to a stage in my life where it was time to get answers.  I have more answers now than I had a year ago, that's for sure.

When I used to see him 2/3 times a year, I hardly ever used to think about him... we'd only speak about 5/6 times a year too and it was an hour of my time listening to him rabbit on about his boat, his this, his that.  BUT I hardly ever thought about him.... now I wonder if I'll ever get to the point where I don't have contact, and hardly ever think about him?  Sometimes maybe we are best off not knowing.

H&H xx

[Hopalong]

(((H & H))))

You are working it all through as fast as you can. This is deep stuff.

I know I've had to revisit and struggle with my mother issues for years and years...only lately have I begun to feel there's no unfinished business. (With her it can't be finished, but I mean unfinished business ABOUT her within myself. Boy, have I made a lot of--mostly good--Ts a few bucks!)

You'll get to that place of letting go (not being forced to) when you are ready, and your own timetable is just fine. You'll know when the knowledge is costing you more than it's worth.

Hugs,
Hopalong

[Healing&Hopeful]

(((((Hoppy)))))

Thanks hon.... I realise it will take time.  I've always been quite impatient...

Apologies all for keep coming back to this.... but my brain just doesn't seem to understand this at the moment.

When I first read this I didn't see it as crossing any boundaries... in fact I didn't see it as anything much apart from him talking about what he thought.

Boundary violation, used, sexualised and emotional incest has been used to describe his email.... and I didn't see any of it.

Can anyone explain to me how they see the above?

Also, I keep coming back to this because I feel I'm missing something in this sentence:-
This is how I see it, so it could be argued it is my 'opinon' although I see it as just correctly interpreting the facts.

As I put on darky's post... it could imply that I was wrong before I opened my mouth to reply... but there's another bit... how do you interpret facts?  Aren't facts just that.... facts?  Maybe I'm trying to rationalise something that is irrational?

ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG

H&H xx

[Portia]

Dear H&H gooood afternoon!

Please let me back up a little:
There is quite a lot of boundary hopping... the most disturbing one for me was the silly example... “I don't like potatoes but said I do to please you (my wife)”!!!!  I can't really describe how that makes me feel, but it's not nice.

Is this….?...
He’s using the word ‘you’ throughout. Then he suddenly says ‘you (my wife)’.

Is your brain telling you something?

Hang on,  don’t panic.  It’s all explainable if I’m on track. If I’m not, tell me why not. Tell me why it feels not nice – icky.

When we feel icky and we don’t know why, there’s a reason. If we listen to what our feelings are trying to tell us, our brains will catch up. But we can’t force our brains! It’s like watching ourselves think and feel. There’s no right or wrong way either. Concentrate what you want to concentrate on and if it bothers you, shelve it until you want to look at it again. There’s no deadline and no pressure!

Okay?

[Portia]

PS

Apologies all for keep coming back to this....

H&H!!!!!!!

I’m going to have to come around to your place and give you a piece of my mind!

Are you apologising for speaking again?

Hahahaha  I absolutely adore you, you know.  Yes I do! You’re great. You’re a joy. 

[Healing&Hopeful]

(((((((((Portia))))))))))

I've been thinking why I apologise.... and you know, I think it's because I've spent the last 30 years listening to him, and because of how I feel about him, then I think others won't want to listen to me drone on and on and on about this.  Does that make any sense?  I do apologise more because I feel people have better things to do... though I suppose if people did have better things to do, they wouldn't respond.  Hmmmmm.

This was my reply to him at the time....

So yes, you have won that argument.
 
I feel this is not an argument and there are no right or wrong answers so this is a wee bit unfair.
 
I feel that by being responsible for the thought process i.e:-
 
Choice
Thought
Action
Thought
Consequence
 
If the consequence is ever something you don't like and don't enjoy that you go back to the beginning and start again until the consequence is something you enjoy and are happy with.
 
And if we look at the prisoner who is tortured, it depends how he reacts/responds mentally which could (not definitely) depend on his outcome.  The prisoner who is held against his will still has a choice mentally.  He can think, "Poor me, this is awful, I will never get out of here, I want to die, I wish they would kill me".  Or he can think "Ok, this is not good and I've been in better situations, but I will think of my wife/happy thoughts to get me through and I just hope that god will hear me and that I will see them again"
 
If we look the husband who get's potatoes every day even though he doesn't like them, he has a few choices, 1-to live with it, 2-to get someone who does not give him potatoes, or 3-to communicate to his wife he does like them so therefore change his inevitable potato eating days. 
 
It ok saying there will be periods of unhappiness in all marriages, but you can do things to try and prevent unhappiness.... things like not taking your husband for granted, buying your husband little gifts every so often to show that you appreciate him, telling him you appreciate him and what he does, thanking him for doing things for you, making decisions together... by working at these things daily there is the possibility that you can prevent unhappiness.  But the husband will also need to work at it the same... I will hopefully be able to let you know if these work in 10 years time!  This is my idealistic view, but is still more realistic that your view.



Of course it fell on deaf ears because he was right anyway....

The cogs are still wooorrrring away...... I can see why I would feel icky with his silly story.... though I've read it a few times since and I think it's more than that too.  1. there is a very warped logic in there... and 2. (and I'm not sure about this... but) Is he blaming me for giving him pototoes in the first place?   Yes, he says it's his fault for not saying, but is he saying it's my fault as his wife for giving him pototoes?  This is where I'm getting really confused... And if he does say in a silly story that I'm "his wife"... is this sort of how he sees me?  Is this emotional incest?  Or do I just sound like a fruit loop?

[Portia]

Okay, H&H, I’m a philosopher, I’m a logical rational too, so let’s have a go at this little piece of mind-mashing crazy-making stuff.

This is how I see it, so it could be argued it is my 'opinon' although I see it as just correctly interpreting the facts.

Any interpretation is an opinion, in my opinion! Unless perhaps we’re taking scientific endeavour or maths? 2+2=4 is a fact. Thinking that 2+x=4 is an interpretation, I’m inferring that x is = to 2, when it could be any number.

You can interpret a bunch of facts, but your interpretation is an assumption, an inference. It may be wrong. You can’t say it’s a fact in itself. To say that he sees it as “correctly interpreting” makes me want to ask, so what would an incorrect interpretation look like?

He thinks he knows everything. He’s wrong. That’s my opinion!

What is a fact? Something we *know* to be *true*.

As I put on darky's post... it could imply that I was wrong before I opened my mouth to reply... but there's another bit... how do you interpret facts?  Aren't facts just that.... facts?  Maybe I'm trying to rationalise something that is irrational?

You’re trying to understand how his nutcase brain works. Good motivation H&H.

You are wrong before you open your mouth eh? Yes. Interesting from both your point of view and his.

You’re wrong even when silent. That keeps you confused and voiceless. How do you learn anything if you’re not allowed to ask questions? If you’re not allowed to voice an alternative? You don’t learn, what you infer is that you are ‘wrong’ plain and simple. Wrong, bad etc. Bad girl!

He wants you wrong because he has to be right. He has to remain in control and he needs to be correct. If there’s a possibility that he might be wrong on one thing, his whole inner world just might collapse. This is basic survival for him. He can’t afford to be wrong, so he won’t be. Totally irrational but necessary for his psychic survival. Your Dad isn't mentally well-balanced H&H. My opinion.

how do you interpret facts?  Aren't facts just that.... facts?  

Yep. Unless you’ve got a load of stuff to hide from yourself and the rest of the world, a load of shame and lies. When people lie they deny the facts – the truth. Your dad denies some truths about himself and so he has to create an alternative reality where he gets to decide what is true and what isn’t. Scary huh? Lots of folks do it.

Facts are what we all decide together are truths. The best way to check reality is to ask other people – lots of other people. If 90% of people say it’s a fact, I’d go with the 90%. Hey the sun rose today! Yeah! (yeah x 90) and 10 people say no it didn’t. Your dad is amongst those 10.

How do we cope? Trust what we know to be true.

Maybe I'm trying to rationalise something that is irrational?

I know what I think and what I feel. For sure. I know about me. Anyone else? Heck I don’t know. But I know myself and I trust myself. What do you know and trust? I think your brain works well. Do you think he's irrational?

I wonder if there is a part of you that knows that your Dad lies. A part of you that wants to be heard, to say “that’s not true”. Maybe a part that knows your own truth and that truth is at complete odds with what your Dad says.

All this is of course simply my opinion

What else bugs you in that mind-mash? Keep talking, please. That stuff of his is a MESS. What matters is what matters to you in it.

[Portia]

Haha! ‘Someone posted while you were writing’….oh no!  What do I do? Heck my post will be out of sync! The sky will fall in! We’re all doomed!!!  Hahaha  sorry H&H I couldn’t hold that back – bleugh all over the board. I shall read your post, have a fag, make a coffee and return in a while. That ‘facts’ post above – I’m just trying to show off and making a complete pig’s ear of it. I never was any good at pure logic. And it shows!!