Author Topic: Struggling with decision  (Read 27849 times)

Portia

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Re: Struggling with decision
« Reply #75 on: February 01, 2006, 07:43:01 AM »
Hiya Plucky :D :D :D

So I am trying to survive on books and the board.

Great, nothing wrong with that! Until I run out of my own money because hey…..I won’t allow anyone to support me. If I had kids I might?

Surviving on books and the board is a great piece of life’s work. I’ve learned more via this board, one way or another, than I have in the 42 years preceding it. Yeah. It’s not surviving either. It’s much, much more. It’s a gift to be used.  8)

Can I say: that business about washing and ironing – my intention there was to say that you can live as ‘separate’ people in the same house. And that those household chores are part of legal stuff here, they go towards defining what a ‘marriage’ is, in the eyes of the law. That was my point…not well-made. :?

Lots of times I respond to the last one I read, get it all mixed up with ideas from someone else and then run out of steam.

Good! Great. Don’t worry about not responding. This is about you, for you. Be self-ish. “You’re worth it!” Yes, you are. You’re wonderful to read. I’m typing this totally for my own benefit, you realise that? We’re all self-shly contributing. It is not all one-way. We all learn all the time.

Let yourself off any guilt or feelings of responsibility to people who post here. It takes a while but it is okay.

Sela: :D
Aren't you just co-existing ? ......  burying some of what you'd really like to say to your husband (repressing some big feelings)?

Well heck I am!! I liked your brave post. Plucky I’m repressing some stuff to get to where I think/feel I might want to be. Stuff with my H (H who isn’t an H but who’s counting?). And I have no idea right now where that will go. Just following my nose and my feelings for a change and not beating myself up for not having the ‘life’ that I might be capable of having because …… today is where I am. I can’t be different today than what I am, but I might be different tomorrow. So that’s okay. Thinking is hard work! I’ll keep repeating that because I want to!

What are they witnessing then, if it's not a good marital relationship?
What are they learning?   This is important.


Ditto Sela. Kids know the truth and are hurt by lies. Better to have the truth (and the pain) than live a false life. 

Noname (hi :D):

Jung said that growth cannot occur in isolation but only through a relationship.
For an alternate view, read Alice Miller.


I’m a big Alice Miller fan. Reading ‘Paths of Life’ right now (and wishing she had a different editor for this book).

Can I have a relationship with a message board? (I think I can.) Can I have a relationship with an author like Alice Miller? (I think I can. It’s all in my head but hey….). Dorothy Rowe is one of my mentors and she doesn’t know it.

So relationships……are what we think they are I guess. Not limited to therapists. Yes? No? maybe?

Healing&Hopeful

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Re: Struggling with decision
« Reply #76 on: February 01, 2006, 09:40:24 AM »
Can I have a relationship with a message board?

As you are having friendships with the people on the message board... I'd say yes!  To have a relationship with a message board made me think it would be like trying to have a relationship with an ironing board!!!  :lol:  Heck, isn't that like N's... like having a relationship with an ironing board?
Here's a little hug for u
To make you smilie while ur feeling blue
To make u happy if you're sad
To let u know, life ain't so bad
Now I've given a hug to u
Somehow, I feel better too!
Hugs r better when u share
So pass one on & show u care

Marta

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Re: Struggling with decision
« Reply #77 on: February 02, 2006, 02:15:29 AM »
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So relationships……are what we think they are I guess. Not limited to therapists. Yes? No? maybe?


THis is second reference to ALice Miller being in contadiction to above statement. I am a great fan of Alice miller as well and I am confused by the interpretation of her presented in this thread. I see her in no way saying that relationships or therapy are not needed, but rather that a great deal of therapists are just really bad. I totally agree with her.

Of course, a beneficial relationships can be formed with anyone -- a friend or  a mentor-- not with a therapist; I said so in my original post. However one of the problems with our relationships in a noninteractive situation (such as with an author, or with a strawman in our head) is that we superimpose our own biased interpretations on what they have to say, and view their works through our distorted lenses. This is why great pieces of literature have been banned through centuries -- for we get out of them what we are capable of. WHen we come from a dysfunctional family, without enough faith in our own instincts or judgement, we need a flesh and blood third party to help us out.

The problem with using our friends as that third party is that (a) most of them are totally unequipped to understand workings of twisted N minds, (b) there are limits beyond which a friend will not push the envelope, rightly so.

THis message board is a great place too but again, there are issues: (a) Most of us come here with our own baggage, big huge ones, so we often dump our own stuff on each other. (b) It is cute to say that we are all friends, best friends, whatever. In reality, one fine day I can just leave without turning back, and no one will know where I am or what happened to me -- as has happened with so many other members since I joined this board. What then happens to those I swore were my friends? (c) It is not really an individual relationship, but a group one, with its benefits and limitations. Of course I know Plucky and her situation, may be even some of her buttons. But do we really know Plucky? Did we even know that she was not Suzy the homemaker that many of us took her to be, that she would not like others seeing her that way?

Of course there are problems with therapy too. People at different stages need different kinds of help. I believe that when we are caught in the stage of self-recimination and excessive guilt, we need a therapist to help us out. Especially when we are so isolated that we lack any friends or a support network.

Quote
So relationships……are what we think they are I guess. Not limited to therapists. Yes? No? maybe?


No, relationships are what they are regardless of what we think they are.... :P

In the end, we always benefit from most non-destructive relationships -- be it with an author, a neighbor, a role model. That is not the question, right? I love this message board, but I don't find it a good substitute for real life friends or real life support. Then again, nor are my real life friends a substitute for what I find up here -- not even close.

Must we really take either/or approach to everything? Must we deny that we are real human beings with real needs, including need for a flesh and blood person who would sit next to us and listen to our woes?

Marta

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Re: Struggling with decision
« Reply #78 on: February 02, 2006, 06:22:12 AM »
Let me qualify what I have said about therapy above.

Say there are two warring children in one room. One, X, of them is often mean, nasty, and bullying. The second one, Y, is often submissive, angry, resentful, manipulates to protect himself since he perceives himself as weak, and often accusing of the other, sometimes unfairly so.

Now introduce a third person, say a teacher, in the room. The dynamics of how these two children interact with each other and the balance of power between them depends greatly on who this third person is. Situation A: If he is always sides with X, we have an explosively destructive situation, for X is a bully. Situation B: If he always sides with Y, it is still not a satisfactory situation, for Y is a good person and knows that he is sometimes wrong, he knows that he sometimes manipulates to get his way through, he is not always right, for no one is ever always right.

If you were a mother of these two warring kids, then you’d want a teacher in that room who was fair and wholesome.

Now substitute for X and Y two warring voices in my head. Until we reach the stage where we are able to become ourselves that teacher who is fair and just to two warring factions in our own head, we have to rely on a third party to broker that balance of power between the two voices.

Few of us will ever find friends or lovers who are skilled enough to stand jury to these two voices, who are committed enough to be there day in and day out for us in spite of our vacillations and sometimes us turning against them (for remember that what X proposes, Y disposes, and these two are still parts of myself.)

If I am trapped in a destructive relationship, it is akin to being in situation A. If I am in an environment such as this message board where I am always told how horrible X is, advised to always put myself and my needs first, told that I am unconditionally supported regardless of what I do, etc. it is akin to being in situation B. To a mother, neither of these are entirely satisfactory. This is why we hear two voices in many post and when one of the voices is criticized – like don’t feel guilty about your mother etc. – we often hear a ferocious defense from the poster.

I believe that therapy is of immense help in neurosis, characterized by conflicting desires within the individual. Until I am able to stop acting in ways that are harmful to myself, it helps me to have another adult look at the situation objectively and gear my internal dialogue a more objective level. In such situations, it DOES NOT help to be told, as I often hear on this message board, that do what you think is right for you etc. because I don’t know what is right for me. My problem is that I grew up in a household where I was taught to do what was precisely wrong for me, to trust the wrong people, so what feels like the right thing is often a very wrong thing for me.

I think that in our day and age, therapy is a most obvious route to dealing with neurosis, so why not try it out? Of course there are legitimate reasons to not try it out, just as there are as many excuses to not try it out. Why would we bring up excuses? Remember, we were trained to not do anything that rocked the boat, trained to do things that were very wrong and unwholesome for us, to feel guilty for spending time, effort, and money on ourselves.

IMHO, objections to therapy are legitimate when someone has been through therapy abuse, or lives in a country where T industry functions poorly, such as in many countries with managed health care, or when someone has a very strong presence, say a mentor or a guide in one’s life, who can fill in that role of an objective observer.

I can see why it would be difficult for October, who has been subject to therapy abuse and has undergone a lot of struggle to find a good T which seems to be difficult by and large in England, because Ts under managed care appear to function as representatives of the state rather than their client; I can see why relying on friends and support system would work for Brigid, because she is not at the moment in any huge crisis and has learnt by now to not beat herself up for her shortcomings.

What is right for Brigid or October or Marta may not be right for Plucky; what seems right to Marta may not even be right for Marta, so it won't be right for Plucky. Such is the limitation of relying solely on this message board for support -- we often take generic solutions that worked for others and graft them to our situation to justify our choices.

But to dismiss therapy offhand without giving it a shot, when one is trapped in a hurtful marriage, without any friends or family to fall back on, without ever having given therapy a serious chance, as in Plucky’s situation, simply does not seem like a sound decision to me.

Self-therapy becomes a viable option only AFTER we’ve learnt to protect ourselves from being pulled in to destructive situations and say NO to abuse. Otherwise, is it not likely that the same voice in your head, which led you to run away from healthy relationships in the past, will not entice you to make similarly destructive choices again?
 
Of course you may find out, even after having given a serious trial to therapy, that it does not work for you. It takes a process of trial and error to find out what works for you and what doesn’t – such is the nature of the beast. For all you know, you may find out that what works for you is meditation or social service. But at that stage you will be armed with a real knowledge of who you are and why therapy doesn’t work for you, so it’d be a step ahead because you’d also have dealt with this strawman in your head who keeps raising objections whenever you try to do something different to get out of this rut, by saying you don’t have the time or whatever. But to sit at home with nothing and no one to rely upon except for this message board and those two voices in your head is to keep playing in pretty much the same ring you’ve played in all your life. As Mr. Anonymous sez, “If you keep doing what you always have done, you will end up with what you already have.”

Recommendations: Karen Horny has written a series of excellent books that may of special interest to you, especially on the tyranny of the shoulds. Another thing I’ve found very helpful in understanding life stages is the ox-herding pictures from Zen. They talk about enlightenment, but can be applied to any psychological awakening. Here’s a link.

http://www.shambhala.org/dharma/ctr/oxherding/ox1.html
« Last Edit: February 02, 2006, 06:58:05 AM by Marta »

Portia

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Re: Struggling with decision
« Reply #79 on: February 02, 2006, 07:52:06 AM »
Hi Resarn! I just want to talk to Marta for a moment. I’m not ignoring your post.

Hi Marta.
Can I ask a question please? I’m confused about your last two posts here. Who are you addressing? Is it me or someone else or maybe me and Noname or Plucky or ….? I haven’t read your posts in close detail but on first reading they confuse me. I don’t know why you’re saying these things right now. Maybe I’m being thick but that won’t be a first time I promise. Is this about Plucky or is it about you? is there a problem that I don’t see here? I don’t understand. And I really dislike not understanding. Can you help please? Portia

Portia

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Re: Struggling with decision
« Reply #80 on: February 02, 2006, 08:07:30 AM »
Hi Resarn
I sent you a Private Message but then thought maybe you won’t notice it? So this is what it said! Your post here is on Plucky's thread and I think maybe it would better put in a thread of it's own? I think you’ll get more replies that way.

If you have the board open (so you can see all the thread titles), there's a button next to the top right of the board called 'New Topic'. Press this and you can start your own thread.

Hope that’s okay for you.  Welcome :D

Brigid

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Re: Struggling with decision
« Reply #81 on: February 02, 2006, 09:06:49 AM »
Quote
I can see why relying on friends and support system would work for Brigid, because she is not at the moment in any huge crisis and has learnt by now to not beat herself up for her shortcomings.

Marta, perhaps you have me confused with someone else.  Just to clarify--I am a HUGE proponent of therapy.  I relied on my therapist for 2 1/2 years and give him all the credit in the world for healing me.  I spent most of my life saying I didn't need therapy, but once I was forced to go there and I really connected to the therapist we were seeing for marriage counseling, I continued to see him weekly until early December.  I can return at any time, but for now I don't have a reason to be there and am in a good place--but largely due to him and his teaching me how to work through issues and heal from my past.

I agree with your presentation of the concept of therapy and the necessity of having an objective second or third party to help you work through the conflicts in your mind.  I agree that this board is a good place to vent and perhaps find information and support, but certainly not a replacement for a trained therapist who will not let you get away with excuses and denial.  I love my friends and would not have survived without their support over the last few years, but they also could not have truly helped me get beyond the grief, anger and confusion I was suffering.  As I said in a previous post, using any of those remedies as a substitute for therapy would have been a band-aid approach and would not have had the lasting impact that my many hours of therapy have provided.

I believe Plucky should give herself permission to make space in her life for therapy for herself.  She is dealing with a life-changing decision--not just for her, but also for her h and children.  I don't believe there is a book on earth that can help you make that decision with clarity and all aspects considered.  When we read support books, we take from them what we want to and leave behind those concepts which do not appeal to us.

Just my 2 cents and you get what you pay for.

Brigid

Sela as guest

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Re: Struggling with decision
« Reply #82 on: February 02, 2006, 09:19:49 AM »
PLucky, I would like to clarify what I meant by:

Quote
30 min for number 3, way back? (finding someone objective to talk with and support you, so you don't feel so alone, no matter what you decide).

Just someone.  Not necessarily a therapist/counsellor but another person, if at all possible.

On the other hand.......I was projecting big stuff or something there because I went through the most stressful, terrifying, heart wrenching couple of years of my life.....with very little human support and I didn't die.  I guess I was just hoping for better for you....for more comfort for you.  I don't like thinking of you all alone in the real world.  That's probably me experinecing my own pain by imagining your situation.  When will I ever stop doing that??

Plucky, I hope you are having a good day today and that tomorrow will be even better.

Sela

Marta

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Re: Struggling with decision
« Reply #83 on: February 02, 2006, 09:24:30 AM »
Quote
Marta, perhaps you have me confused with someone else.


Oh no, Brigid. I know that you are a proponent of therapy, and I also remember that you stopped seeing your therapist recently, although you still belong to this board, which is why I used you as an example. As someone who is still on the board, but not seeing a T currently.

Portia, the jung/miller comment was definitely addressed to you or whoever posted that. The rest of it was addressed to Plucky, a sort of thinking aloud, and to all of us, the way most posts on this board work. 


Portia

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Re: Struggling with decision
« Reply #84 on: February 02, 2006, 09:55:34 AM »
Hi Marta
thanks for your reply

Portia, the jung/miller comment was definitely addressed to you or whoever posted that.

I'm still a bit lost I'm afraid.

I talked about that jung/miller comment in reply to Noname who posted it. Is that who you mean by "whoever posted that"? Who do you mean? It’s clear when I post, I use my name.

I'm still not clear if you're addressing me or not. Although you have used a quote from me (the one about relationships) at the start and end of one post...., but maybe you were just musing on that line? That's okay if you were. I wasn't being particularly serious with that sentence so take it as you wish. I’m not attached to it.

I guess what I'm asking is, would you like me to reply to anything? I don't mind either way, but if you want a reply, I need to at least know what I'm replying to. Thanks.

Hop guest

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Re: Struggling with decision
« Reply #85 on: February 02, 2006, 10:17:38 AM »
Hey Plucky,
I think a lot of people here (including me) urge you to see a therapist because you seem too isolated in your struggle with this decision. And it's hard to think clearly when you have a battle going in your own head.

And maybe your reasons for not doing it (too busy, can't find the time)...sound...like you're not caring for yourself.

A T won't make you do anything, or judge you. Remember, it would be for you.
And it really is okay to do something that is unequivocally just for you.

If you want it. (Likewise, advice here is free and you're free to take it or leave it too!)

(((((((((((((((Plucky))))))))))))))))

Hopalong

Portia

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Re: Struggling with decision
« Reply #86 on: February 02, 2006, 11:39:52 AM »
Plucky: sorry I’m going way off the topic. Hope that’s okay. Take it easy.

Marta: I want to talk to you, and maybe with you, if you want to.

THis message board is a great place too but again, there are issues: (a) Most of us come here with our own baggage, big huge ones, so we often dump our own stuff on each other.

Why do people become therapists do you think?
Do you think therapists don’t have their own baggage?
We are all only human. Not perfect.

(b) It is cute to say that we are all friends, best friends, whatever. In reality, one fine day I can just leave without turning back, and no one will know where I am or what happened to me -- as has happened with so many other members since I joined this board.

Very true. People die too. They leave us, in 3D life. We know what happened (if we’re lucky) but they still go.

You can leave, you don’t have to tell anyone where you are or what happened (tricky if you fell under a bus yesterday) but while you are alive, you have a choice. You can tell people. Okay I’ll tell you the truth. Two people who have been members here have my home phone number and my cellphone number. They can call me whenever. They also have my person email. If they don’t hear from me, they can email or phone. Ditto for them, I can phone and email. Is that strange to you? It’s the truth. It’s taken a very long time for me to have enough trust in anyone to give out personal stuff like that. I’m not a very trusting person. But that’s changing.

If you want people to care about you, to notice if you leave, to care about where you are or what happens to you it’s simple but difficult: you have to care about them too. You have to trust and take big huge risks, be very vulnerable and open and honest. And reciprocal.

What then happens to those I swore were my friends?

It’s no good if you say you’re someone’s friend – they also have to agree with you, they have to agree that they are your friend. It takes two. It’s giving and receiving. Be able to receive is a huge task. Being able to take a hand of friendship takes real courage sometimes. And friendship is something that builds over time. Takes a long time.

I just felt like writing to you Marta and decided to select that part of one of your posts. Hope that’s okay. And I hope you’re okay.

Moira

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Re: Struggling with decision
« Reply #87 on: February 02, 2006, 12:42:32 PM »
Greetings! I've done therapy in my practice for 20 years and have been in therapy myself for 30 years. Absolutely therapists have " baggage" and there are reason why we chose this profession. I don't want to say all therapist go into it for their own convenient therapy- some do and that's unethical and crazy- rather, most of us have personal experience with many issues. A good therapist never tells clients what to think or do, and should not be sharing own personal experiences- all counter therapy, damaging, no boundaries, and unethical. I wouldn't;t be the healthier- is ongoing!- and more whole person with better skills and understanding that I am today without my own therapy. I also believe all therapist should have ongoing therapy themselves for what is called " vicarious trauma"- all therapists hear the most abusive, horrible and painful experiences of people all day and are traumatized- whether they realize and accept it or not. If we are not dealing with this we become traumatized long term and suffer burn out and PTSD- and end up being useless for your clients. I hope you consider therapy and shop around for a good therapist- don't pick the first one you come across. Talk to other people in therapy, call the college of psychologists( or whoever is in your area) and get names of ones who specialize in issues you want to explore, " interview " them etc. Hugs, Moira
I've just ended abusive relationship of 1 yr. with male narcissist. I cycle between stages of anger and grieving and have accepted it. Hope I've alienated him so he won't recontact me- is this possible?     Moira

Surrounded

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Re: Struggling with decision
« Reply #88 on: February 02, 2006, 03:25:49 PM »
Hey everyone!

Speaking of people coming and going.....where IS Plucky????

Everything all right?  I just noticed we haven't had your input here for a bit....Hope all is well!


((((((((((((((((((((Plucky))))))))))))))))))))))))))


Surrounded

To ALL:  Great posts, by the way----interesting dialogue!  Love it!

Marta

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Re: Struggling with decision
« Reply #89 on: February 03, 2006, 12:43:00 AM »
Portia,

Your comments to me are a non-issue. I have neither left nor do I intend to leave anytime soon, at least not without telling my friends. By saying" I may leave" I am speaking rhetorically about a phenomenon I have observed on the board in sudden departure of at least as many as seven to ten long-standing members without a word in the few months I've been here, not *I as in Marta*. I am characterizing what I observe to be the nature of this board, not my personal inclinations.

I love this board and value it for much mroe than just venting -- I consider it a place to heal. We heal by sharing our stories, by expressing to each other that we care, by providing support once we express our decision to follow a certain path. I care as much about what happens to some of you, especially Plucky, as I care about my real life friends.

BUT.

IMHO, this board is NOT the place to debunk our defenses or face our shortcomings. We are excellent in pointing out to each other all the flaws in the Ns in our lives, but not in ways in which we may be hurting ourselves and others. Sometimes it may even prove to be an excellent hiding place from our problems, because you can find support for pretty much any position here. This is not a constraint of this particular board, but rather of this medium. A spaceship will transport you to outer space, but will not take you from Texas to Idaho. Similarly, this message board can do wonders for us, but it is not the correct venue for penetrating inner work that must be done in moving forward from abusive relationships.

I firmly believe that it is necessary to face our own shortcomings in order to grow, and that a committed individual relationship and a socratic dialiogue goes a long way in doing that. If we are lucky enough to have a skilled friend or a mentor or a spouse to do that, great, but if not, I'd say roll up your sleeve (as in anyone's sleeve, not Portia's..) and start exploring other options, including the most popular one of our time, therapy.

Jung comment was addressed to whoever posted it -- I didn't scroll up to see the name but now I see that it was Anon. I thought that you were reiterating the same position.

Quote
Surrender:
Speaking of people coming and going.....where IS Plucky????

Surrender, good question.

As for Plucky, she's probably embarassed by so much attention being focussed on her, feeling too pressured by all that is being said, probably feeling misunderstood for much of we say is kinda of off base and doesn't touch a cord with her. But at the same time I hope that she is feeling the care,  warmth, concern, and support for her in the air, and will come out and holler at us if we are annoying her or violating her boundaries in any way, instead of just hibernating with her books. 

Plucky, many hugs to you. Love, Marta