I lost my singing voice when I saw my friends were N's....

[Sela]

Hi Portia:

Thanks for the link.  What a sad way to find out about a friend's death.      Have you read Dawkin's books?
"The Selfish Gene" sure sounds interesting.

I do read bits of scripture sometimes. I like a lot of what Jesus said. I don’t like a lot in the Bible, especially the anti-women and anti-children stuff. It’s too ancient for me, generally. I like facts,...

Sorry P.  Didn't mean to indicate that you don't read it and I should have put a couple of those  smiley faces after suggesting the bible as the publication to read (   'cause I was joking a little there......kind of in a serious way eh?).

Anyhow....ya.....I don't like some of that stuff either but I guess I think of the bible as more of a history book than anything and that's the way things were (re women and children).  Compared to today....there are improvements now, I guess.  Also.......for me, the bible is sort of how you explained the 4 agreements are for you......how you use what makes sense to you......to help you.   So it's all good, in the end eh.

Moon:  I love what you wrote!  Especially:

there are too many dumb fridge magnets

and

I am not anti war I am pro peace

 

  Sela

[moonlight52]

Hi Portia and Sela,      I had to drive hubby to airport on only one cup of coffee so I was not quite awake when I first read your post, I did not click on link. I am now fully awake and have read what a fine man your friend was Portia ,he wrote on Monty Pylon ,Dr. Who and he was a scientist well, this guy lived a full life and is missed and dearly loved and a genious.WOW.Gets you thinking about whats really important every minute we have on Earth is important.Because when we are in Heaven we will be in such heavenly bliss it will be  just total bliss you know .Here is where the action is and all the learning.Oh yeah another answer for all of mankind's problems Faith that we can do the job we are here for.
Sela,       It was Portia That wrote about" the dumb fridge magnets" thats why you liked it  so very much I bet , I can not claim authorship."The Selfish Gene "does sound a good read.Thanks
love and light
Moonlight

[Portia]

Moon
Thank you for inspiring me with you and your hubby’s deep sense of morality. I can’t see any military use for water purification but yeah, night vision goggles, not just useful to me if I want to go owl and badger-watching eh?

I always used to wonder, about the threat of nuclear war, if it was true that we could blow ourselves up. At the time, we were certainly led to believe that we could pretty much destroy the planet with mutually-assured destruction. But I wonder. I don’t know the ‘facts’ (if they exist) but I always thought it was a wee bit arrogant to presume that we were ever that powerful. Even if we managed to destroy every human (and that would difficult), life would go on. Without us! Boo-hoo, so what? We’re inherently N, we have to try and put it to good use. Think we can change things for the better. Use it to our advantage!

I didn’t know Picasso was afraid of death but it figures. I agree with you about his character though, yep “women are either goddesses or doormats” – wonder what his mother was like?

Hey I wish I’d known Douglas Adams I really do. I read all his books. Write has a quote of his as her sign off. He was so human, accessible and so funny. Made quantum physics understandable! Well maybe not. But a huge imagination and love for life.

Sela
Nope I haven’t read Dawkins yet. Think I might. The thing is, I’ve been doing so much thinking of late, revisiting old ideas, and I find reading Rowe and now getting a hang of what dawkins is talking about – well….does this happen to you? I get to some theory I think I like, think makes sense to me and guess what, it ain’t new and some other person has written about it. And I don’t like to read their stuff until I’ve come up with my own view. Then I can read and see if it’s in agreement or if there’s stuff I haven’t thought of. Like I was deeply embroiled in the question “why do people have children” for ages. I really had to find an answer for me, to be at peace about it. And I found it and then chanced upon The Selfish Gene and thought noooo! I don’t want to be infected with your thoughts yet! I need to bed down my own views first! Haha. Once I think I have a view, then I want it challenged, if you see what I mean. But I have to get to my own view first, otherwise….I might be too influenced…I might be too gullible and taken in by someone else’s view.

For example. I’ve said before here that I know very little about religion. Which is sort of true, but then, I’ve read and picked up stuff along the way. And only now am I overcoming some internal tapes rejecting all religious words and being a bit less irrationally prejudiced. I know what you mean about it’s like the 4 agreements. It depends on our interpretation. Background: my mother always told me that religion was rubbish and that she rejected it. I had a look at it as a kid and thought nope, not for me and did the same - but I did look and I was critical. I saw a lot of bad stuff and stuff that didn’t make any sense to me at the time. I was shocked when mother told me (in recent years) that when she first got married in church, she was at the alter expecting to be struck down by a lightning bolt. My brain fizzled ??????? what the heck? Why? I asked her. And she said something like: “because I was so anti-religion I was like the devil himself and was expecting to be punished”. Which makes her a believer in my book. She believed and she rejected it, believing it to be true!

How sick and rebellious and narcissistic is that? One, to think that God would care! Two, to spend your life rebelling against the ultimate good!

Ahh but I think she thinks God was her mother perhaps, so then it makes sense.

But to me it shows the muddled thinking of a pre-schooler. Kind of “if I think it doesn’t exist, it will go away” and then living in fear of it. Or is it like the comfort of imagining you are persecuted, i.e. that someone somewhere is out to get you because you are so important? And what could be more important and life-affirming than to be persecuted by God?

I wonder if this is how Madonna thinks? (as in the Material Girl of course). She once said she wouldn't be happy until she stood next to God and you gotta think, that's pretty sad.

All very odd. Thanks for the space

[Sela]

Hiya P:

  Don't laugh.    I think I might be the exact opposite of you when it comes to forming most of my opinions about stuff.  I think I have to take my time.....forming opinions because I feel like I may miss something and form the wrong one.  I want allllllllllllllllllllllllllll the available information.  I want to hear what everyone thinks.  I want to see as much demonstration as is available and I want to think long and hard before I make up my own mind.....take a stand........form a view or theory......or decide most things.

Hahahaha!  I'm laughing because it's like I have no brain of my own.    I want to hear what others think first and see the facts.....if there are any......before I pick a position.  That's pretty N of me eh?    Although......(pant pant)......I did say......."want to hear/see/know..." not "have" to.  I don't have to hear anyone's thoughts on stuff and it's certainly a choice to wait until I do hear what others think before I decide.  It just seems like a reasonable thing to do....usually (mostly because I feel like I don't know much and so I need information).  And I guess I don't always do it that way.

Hahahaha!

....expecting to be struck down by a lightning bolt.

Or lifted up by angels??? ( shake head icon here please).  That stuff only happens to special people.....like Jesus........

She believed and she rejected it, believing it to be true!

My first reaction is .......anger.  I feel mad at her for a) jipping you out of a good thing by portraying it as garbage; b) pretending one thing and then actually living another (being such a hypocrat!!).

It's like telling a kid chocolate is horrible tasting stuff or apple pie will give you hives (while keeping a stash of chocolate, all for herself, or sneaking pieces of apple pie to honk back in private with glee), and like pretending she doesn't believe in vampires, while secretly hanging garlic cloves in every knook and cranny of heeeeeeeeer bedroom!!! (leaving yours......garlic clove-less and therefore open prey to vampires!!)     

But........then she's a toddler.

How sick and rebellious and narcissistic is that? One, to think that God would care! Two, to spend your life rebelling against the ultimate good!

It's amazing how many people think God punishes them......that when bad stuff happens......it's God's way of punishing them.  (what a waste of time the ultimate judgement day would be then eh?  If everyone has already been punished for their misdeeds here.   Ha!  I bet God has better things to do.    And He's saving the big fun for that last day too, I bet!!

But just like a toddler.......she rebelled eh?   Against the idea......of something bigger.....something more powerful.......unseen.......something all-powerful and gooooooooood.   She is afraid of Him but refuses to worship Him.  Just like a 2 year old.

But to me it shows the muddled thinking of a pre-schooler.

It does doesn't it?  And I feel mad thinking she was in charge of teaching you stuff for so long.  But....I have great faith in your wonderful brain!!  You can think for yourself and so you will make your own theories and test them for yourself.....as you say....or have them tested by others and that's a great thing!!  You've done such a good job of raising yourself P!!  And you're doing a great job of thinking for yourself!!

Once I think I have a view, then I want it challenged.....

That's so wonderful!  It shows that you're interested in making sure what you think is correct/reasonable/sound... (insert appropriate other word/s for that last batch).

I'm not sure if you're wanting your theory about God/no God tested or not?  It's a bit like believing in magic.....in miracles......in Santa or the Easter Bunny.   I think I was  a really weird kid in a way because I had a sneaking suspicion that Santa did not exist (but I had/still have this deep belief/feeling that God issss).  I kept trying to figger it out and prove my theory about Santa!!  One Christmas eve I was able to do that.  I went to bed when I was told to but I stayed awake.  I waited and waited and listened.  My aunt and uncle were visiting and I could hear the adults talking...in a muffled sort of way.  There was the odd laugh and I could tell they were just chatting, as adults do.  Then, I heard the muffling get sort of quieter.....like they were trying to speak even quieter (the adults).  I heard:  "Put it over there, it looks better".

I jumped out of bed and I ran down the hall into the living room.  There, on the couch......was the stuff from Santa!!  I said:  "When did Santa get here?" and the adults all turned to look at me with expressions of horror!!  My uncle took me by the arm and led me out of the room, into the kitchen and asked me if I was thirsty?  Did I want a snack?  He said it was late and I must have been dreaming and just woke up and I should go back to bed soon because Santa wouldn't come until everyone was asleep.

I said:  "He was already here.  I saw the stuff.  I know it wasn't Santa too.  It was you adults who put the stuff out".  And my uncle said:  "Oh, no, no, no.   You must have had a dream.  There's nothing put out.  Come and look!"  And he led me back into the living room, where low and behold.........all the "stuff" was gone.  The other adults were sitting around, looking relaxed, smiling, and acting as calm and innocent and serene as a field full of daisies!  But I knew.  I knew I had proved my own theory correct.  I knew I hadn't slept or dreamt.  I knew I saw the stuff.  I knew they had hid the stuff, after I saw it.  I knew what I saw and I knew they were trying to keep the magic alive......the story of Santa.....in my head.

I didn't say anything.  I just went back to bed.  I felt disappointed that there really wasn't a Santa.  I almost wished I hadn't gotten up and found out.  I wanted my theory prooved wrong (deep inside).  I wanted there to really be a Santa!!  I pretended like I believed ......for a long time after that.....but I didn't.  I did it....to please everyone else, I guess.  I could see they had gone to such trouble to keep the magic....the dream....alive and I didn't want to ruin it for them.

I guess I didn't think about how I was going to feel, once I prooved my own theory correct.   I learned the truth....true......but for some reason......the untruth...the dream......the magic... felt more comfortable and I liked it better.

This turned out longer than I was planning.    Better quit before that big read 20,000 character thingy pops up!! 

(((((((((Portia)))))))))

  Sela

PS:  Hey Moon!  That is so cool about your hubby being a scientist and I love that he quit his night goggle job on the basis of principle!!  Strength of character....I think it's called.  He's got it!!  I'm glad you're with him!!  ((((((Moon)))))

[gratitude28]

Some thoughts on all the posts here...

I adore Douglas Adams... have since he first came out with his books (I was in college). I just reread Life, the Universe and Everything. It's harder to read his works now as I want to study every sentence

I had a terrible time forever forming opinions. I couldn't do analyses for school. I thought everything I read was "right" and I coudn't dissect anything. Guess why? I wasn't allowed an opinion at home and my mother's opinions always mirrored my dad's, even when she didn't know what he meant! It has taken years.

You mentioned Madonna. OK, she's weird as are so many of the "stars," but the one good thing is that we are seeing some nowadays who are looking for spirituality. (Although I think the Scientologists are just whacko cultists).

The other day my kids and I were reading the paper and saw that someone had won millions. We talked about it and agreed that we didn't need that to be happy. We want what we have... However, if we did win millions, we could pursue art and travel a bunch and spread goodwill in our free time!!! I am so proud of how grateful and kind my children are. It's their best attribute!

I think the media makes us feel doomed. I don't think we are. I think good will prevail.

Love you all.
Beth

[j_stice]

Sela,

All I can say is that people change and whilst you moved on to look at things in a differenent way with new perspective some of your friends haven't the most damaging thing you can do is blame yourself for this now. You realised that this was not an easy step to make but started in a good process of seeking the right type of people in your life.

I got told something whilst I am dealing with my problems (yeah I know I am not the best person to say this): your new improvements in your life have allowed you to take the next step, if you feel that some of your friends aren't ready or capable of taking the steps with you.... Don't worry you will have friends that will and for all those friends who can't you will find others that do. Move on with the knowledge that you are becoming (or in your case are) a better person. You have the strength to make the positive changes in your life feel free to make to see the strength as it is... the ability to work and improve.

One last thing: Never doubt the steps you take in life because you end up taking them for a reason just remember the reason won't always be revealed you at the time. (I read the above in the book the 5 people you met in heaven - it helped me through some stuff).

[Portia]

Oh Sela!  What did I say up there? About how we reach theories (or beliefs?). I said: Like I was deeply embroiled in the question “why do people have children” for ages. I really had to find an answer for me, to be at peace about it.

Well…..let’s see if I can get this out. I didn’t know nuthink about narcissism or personality disorders and I came here….and learned a lot. Yah, like you say, I got all the information I could and filled my head up with it. So I agree with you, if I don’t know anything about a subject, I’ll get the info. And then try to shred it, ask myself why I feel uncomfortable with it (John Bradshaw) and ask is it me? Or is this really unscientific claptrap? Am I actually being manipulated for someone else’s profit (or advancement of their lunatic ideas), or do I just *feel* manipulated? Or if I feel too comfortable with it….is that okay? Am I taking an easy route? Etc.

But if I have a question which really bothers me – like the children question – first I gotta work out what stuff has gone into my brain in the past to make me even ask the question (many people wouldn’t ask that question right?) and then a sort of germ of an idea starts to develop. I did start looking for information, for answers from people and I wasn’t satisfied, I started analysing their answers and it said more about them, than the answer to the question. Interesting stuff. I didn’t know I was going to end up in evolution and biology, no idea. But in a sense, maybe I did, because I knew I was asking the ‘motivation’ question. And where else would the answer be? (For me.)

So I agree with you about the way we do it, it depends….

About the lightning bolt stuff. It doesn’t bother me how it affected me as a kid. What bothers me is her totally illogical brain processing. That kind of illogic horrified me, especially in your own mother eh? You think someone thinks basically like you do and it’s shocking to discover that you’ve been very wrong. I don’t think she was being hypocritical although it looks like that. I honestly think she thinks like that: that ‘not believing’ is simply ‘reacting against’. Which kinda makes sense at that age I guess. A kid says “I don’t believe you” meaning “I don’t want to do that” or “I don’t accept that” or “I want my own way” or even “I don’t understand”. ?

She didn’t teach me much at all, not capable. I know that she thought that what she knew, I automatically knew, by being one and the same person as her. Sick. I know this for sure. She grew up with classical music in the house, I did not. But she expected me to know the stuff she knows. That is seriously un-real. But lots of people do it – imagine everyone thinks and knows what they do (and that those who don’t are mad, bad or sad).

It’s weird, going to the library and thinking: I can read anything I want to. I can find out about anything, I have the right, the ability and the freedom to have information. I could overload on those thoughts!   

I'm not sure if you're wanting your theory about God/no God tested or not?

Not sure I have a theory….it depends what anyone means by it. For me, ‘God’ means what other people have told me it means for them. Seriously. It means hvbdhfbgvjh to me. And you might say - what is hvbdhfbgvjh?

See what I mean? You have no concept yourself of what hvbdhfbgvjh is. That's my meaning of ‘God’ - it comes entirely from other people, I have no meaning of my own. (That doesn’t mean I want one. Do you want hvbdhfbgvjh? What you don’t have, you don’t miss - unless you’re envious of what you perceive other people might have. I might be curious, but not envious.) Hey I haven't put it that clearly before i don't think.  Hope it makes sense. 

I pretended like I believed ......for a long time after that.....but I didn't.  I did it....to please everyone else, I guess.  I could see they had gone to such trouble to keep the magic....the dream....alive and I didn't want to ruin it for them.
Ummmmmmmmmm. Sela. What can I say? As that child, I think you were way too responsible for adults’ feelings. I don’t think you would have ruined it for them. I don’t like living a lie because I lived amongst them for so long. I guess some lies are almost necessary. Or maybe they are necessary to some. No, it doesn’t sit with me. I don’t mind other people having their lies, but I don’t want them. Yes it’s lonely and no I wouldn’t spoil a lie just to make a point. But pursuit of the truth is way more interesting for me.

I learned the truth....true......but for some reason......the untruth...the dream......the magic... felt more comfortable and I liked it better.

Fair enough and I value your amazing honesty Sela. I can’t/won’t do that for or to myself. Happy to do it for others. I celebrate Christmas with decorations. Each year I say to myself ‘this is to make it brighter in the darkest time of year: no more, no less’. I do that because part of me feels hypocritical and then I want to take them down. But I like how they look and I have to understand what it is I like. It isn’t magic, it’s the effect of the lights and colours and it’s warming and pretty. It’s also my very own tradition and I like a bit of tradition (doing the same comfortable thing each year, a sense of continuity). I like it now for what it is and I try to be honest about what it is. If it starts to feel dishonest, I’ll stop doing it.

The effect of all those lies on me! I might have been a happy-go-lucky type of person without all those damn lies! Even Christmas wasn’t exempt, putting up cards from previous years, pretending that people had sent them this year. Or maybe not? Not understanding that it isn’t the tradition, you don’t do that, the whole point of cards is that you get a fresh batch each year and if that batch gets smaller, tough. You don’t lie to yourself about reality. Because that’s madness to me. Or at least I saw it as madness. It drove me half mad. And when I questioned it? That’s the occasion he called me “evil”. I was called evil for wanting the truth. Or so I see it. He was of course just protecting their personal mad world and attacking me for threatening it. What a lunatic. Whoah. Still got some stuff in there eh? Gosh. Cause and effect eh? I can see why I am the way I am.

Thanks for the brain work out Sela. Blimey that was hard work


Hi Beth

I’m going to go back to Douglas Adams too; I remember his jokes and need that relief! I loved the ‘Total Perspective Vortex’. And Zaphod’s reaction to it! Totally N and wonderfully funny. Thanks for reminding me some more.

I had a terrible time forever forming opinions. I couldn't do analyses for school. I thought everything I read was "right" and I coudn't dissect anything.
I’m shaking my head and thinking you must have done so well to overcome that. It sounds crippling. I knew I had opinions, I just thought they were mostly ‘bad’ or stupid. But I can try and imagine your confusion.

We talked about it and agreed that we didn't need that to be happy. We want what we have...

Aren’t kids great????  And they have such wisdom. You must be a great mom, no doubt about it, with those answers. 

[Healing&Hopeful]

Sela,

All I can say is that people change and whilst you moved on to look at things in a differenent way with new perspective some of your friends haven't the most damaging thing you can do is blame yourself for this now. You realised that this was not an easy step to make but started in a good process of seeking the right type of people in your life.

I got told something whilst I am dealing with my problems (yeah I know I am not the best person to say this): your new improvements in your life have allowed you to take the next step, if you feel that some of your friends aren't ready or capable of taking the steps with you.... Don't worry you will have friends that will and for all those friends who can't you will find others that do. Move on with the knowledge that you are becoming (or in your case are) a better person. You have the strength to make the positive changes in your life feel free to make to see the strength as it is... the ability to work and improve.

One last thing: Never doubt the steps you take in life because you end up taking them for a reason just remember the reason won't always be revealed you at the time. (I read the above in the book the 5 people you met in heaven - it helped me through some stuff).

Hi Sela

I really wanted to reply to this thread but was having trouble with how to put what I thought into words... and then with the replies, I was getting a bit lost in the responses, but I read this and thought... yes, that's it.  J_stice has said it much better than I ever could.

Take care

H&H xx

[Sela]

Hey (((((all)))))):

Hiya Stormy:  Thanks for the cartoon.  I love cartoons.  They can say things so much clearer than plain old words, sometimes eh?  That one reminds me that my friends don't have NDP (as far as I know).  But they sure acted Nish......or at minimum........selfish.

Thinking of and looking out for self.
Is that self-preserving?
Taking care of self first.
That's what we're supposed to be learning to do...isn't it?
When is it not ok to do that?  When is it or is it ever more important to think of others first?
I'm confused. 

Too much self-preservation is just selfish....Nish.
Not enough is door mattish.......tolerating abuse.......being a martyr, etc.
Where is the happy medium?  How to stay close to it, most of the time?

I'm sure I've behaved selfishly in the past. That doesn't make me N.
It makes me human.

The same goes for my friends.  They aren't baddddddd people.  They are only evolved animals, like we all are.

The few internet friends I'm mentioning here are only a drop in the bucked compared to the real life friends and the hurt I felt over their selfishness.

All I can say is that people change and whilst you moved on to look at things in a differenent way with new perspective some of your friends haven't...

Justice....... ..........do I know you?  Do you live near me?  Have we met?  ( just kidding a bit).  That is sooooooo accurate.  It really probably is what happened.  That doesn't make any of us bad people, does it?  Or N?  It just means we have different views.  I assume some of them acted pretty badly due to their strong views and because of whatever emotion was driving them (I can guess).

the most damaging thing you can do is blame yourself for this now

Thankyou Justice.  I'm going to remember what you said.  You really helped.  Thankyou so much!

Dear H&H:  No worries.  Anything you have put into words so far has been good/fine/etc.  Thanks for reading and thinking and posting, even when it's not that easy.  I appreciate that so much.

Portia:  How are ya?  I hope you're good and well and enjoying life! 

Am I taking the easy route?

Please direct me there immediately!!!!      I will gladly take it, if you don't want it!!  I love easy stuff!!  Where the heck is that map!!! 

Ya.  If there is an easy route........I seem to miss it.   Oh well.  As long as we get there eh?? 

For me, ‘God’ means what other people have told me it means for them. Seriously. It means hvbdhfbgvjh to me. And you might say - what is hvbdhfbgvjh?

I have no meaning of my own. (That doesn’t mean I want one. Do you want hvbdhfbgvjh? What you don’t have, you don’t miss - unless you’re envious of what you perceive other people might have. I might be curious, but not envious

That was good and clear P.  Hmmmmm.  hvbdhfbgvjh?  Would you want it?

I imagine, if I were able to imagine being in your shoes, having been taught (and I assume believing for so long) that hvbdhfbgvjh is rubbish.........I probably wouldn't want hvbdhfbgvjh either or be interested in hvbdhfbgvjh.

Do I want hvbdhfbgvjh?  I think, if a great number of people in the world were somewhat excited about hvbdhfbgvjh, if there where great and gorgeous buildings all over the place where people go to worship hvbdhfbgvjh, if there was a book like the bible passed down from time, containing information related to hvbdhfbgvjh, a book that is used in our courts to swear upon, if hvbdhfbgvjh were mentioned in my national anthem, if holidays were celebrated in hvbdhfbgvjh's honour, if people went around using hvbdhfbgvjh's name in vain and thanking hvbdhfbgvjh, every time stuff went right and praying to hvbdhfbgvjh on their death beds.........

.........I think, honestly, I would be seriously interested in knowing a whole lot more about hvbdhfbgvjh.

But as I said, if your mother told you hvbdhfbgvjh is rubbish, whether in words, actions, or simply by communicating and instilling that attitude in you...........I can see how that would mold your thoughts and feelings about hvbdhfbgvjh.

I think people who despise God and teach their children to do so are acting just as those who are fanatical and teach their kids that all life evolves around nothing more than God.

Both are equally a disservice and feel, to me, in my heart, like abuse.

It might be said that teaching my child that chocolate is awful stuff and so is apple pie......is not abuse.  Denying children indulgences in life is not abuse.  But I think lying to them is.  And......especially, if you sneak around and eat chocolate and apple pie, when you really need it.....want it.......are afraid you'll miss it.

I didn't finish my Santa story either.  Mostly because I felt like I'd yacked long enough, which I probably did.   

Anyway......I guess what I was trying to say by relating that experience is that I had a theory about the truth, which I set out to proove, and which I was not happy, in the end, to know the truth about.

But that was as a child.......in my immaturity.......part of my development.  After awhile........I became more comfortable with the truth.  It helped me to feel like I knew something important.  I was glad to learn that there really was a St. Nicholas who went around giving to poor children.  I understood that it is a good thing...to celebrate that kind of giving at Christmas.  After awhile........I liked the truth better than the fantasy but I had to first.........know it..........then.........learn more about it.......and finally.....understand it before it was something I accepted and felt good about.

I'm not directing you in any way.  I hope you will perceive that.  I'm just trying to put in a word for chocolate and apple pie and hvbdhfbgvjh.  It's not all bad.  It's not poisonous.  It won't hurt you unless you eat too much of it or get fanatical about it.  It's acutally......pretty good stuff (well.......I can't say for sure about the hvbdhfbgvjh.......but I imagine if there was that much attention being given to it in this world......it would be something important to get a handle on).

I'm glad you're curious P.  That's a great trait. 

She didn’t teach me much at all, not capable.

So sorry for that, Portia.   

But I keep saying because I mean it......I'm so impressed with how well you have done and are.....regardless!!

Fair enough and I value your amazing honesty Sela.

Thankyou for saying such a nice thing P.

 

I like it now for what it is and I try to be honest about what it is. If it starts to feel dishonest, I’ll stop doing it.

Hey.  It's a holiday!  Until eveyone who does not believe it's Jesus's birthday...stops celebrating it........you're not dishonest.    You're going with the flow P.  Sometimes, that's the best way to go (like the easy route...where the heck is that route....that's all I want to know!!! ).    I see nothing wrong with liking Christmas lights and enjoying all the Christmasy stuff.....it's quite beautiful.  The season brings out the best in a lot of people and it's a good thing for all, I think.  I don't think God made it a holiday.....people did........so no worries about enjoying it being some indication that you're taking advantage of anything (if that's the worry?).  You're not hypocritical for putting up lights or eating Christmas cake or even sharing the joy. 
Hypocritical would be doing those things and then pretending not to like them.  It would be doing them and then criticising them and those who do them.  It would be putting on a fake tolerance while secretly loving every minute of it.

The effect of all those lies on me! I might have been a happy-go-lucky type of person without all those damn lies!

Lies really do hurt.  Lies almost have a corrosive......dissolving qualitiy to them.  Like they ferment stuff in me or something. That's what lies are like for me.

I've been visualizing a big pot of lies lately (I mentioned before, I think, that sometimes I relax in comfy spot and visualize myself standing beside this big boiling pot, which is cooking over a fire and I watch stuff evaporate or float away, like baloons, as it escapes from the pot).    Lately, the pot is full of lies and they are boiling......cooking......and one by one they rise up and float away into oblivion.....where they pop......like balloons.  It's quite fun to imagine and I'm hoping it's lifting some of the weight of the lies and decreasing their value.

They really are worthless.  Lies.  They have no value.  They are good for nothing.  Eh?

That's what I think.

You don’t lie to yourself about reality. Because that’s madness to me. Or at least I saw it as madness. It drove me half mad. And when I questioned it? That’s the occasion he called me “evil”. I was called evil for wanting the truth.

Son of a..............!!!!

Was he NDP?  Or just Nish?  Or just sick?  Or just a lyer????

Who cares??  That was soooooooooo mean and heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee is the eeeeeeeeeeeeevil one!!!

Calling a child evil is, imo, one of the most horribly abusive things a person can say to a kid.  It goes hand in hand with :  "I hate you" and "You're nothing......of absolute no value".  It's bad!  Bad!!  BADDD!!!

Gee P.  And his awful words left such an impression on you.  Sure wish I could help to lift the pain of those words.  Sure wish I could say something so healing......so good........so kind......so much more impressionable......something that would boil up those awful "you're evil" words and send them floating into oblivion and cause them to pop....like a balloon.......and be gone forever. 

They're a lie!!  He was lying!!  Rather than admit the lie they were living......rather than tell the truth......rather than face reality.......he projected onto you and told you a big, big, huge, big lie!!!

You are not and never were ......evil.  That's bullshit!!

You were and are a good person, Portia, NOT  evil!!!

He was of course just protecting their personal mad world and attacking me for threatening it. What a lunatic. Whoah. Still got some stuff in there eh? Gosh.

Hey......no need to whoah.  Maybe it would be a good thing to just keep going and get it out!!  A good rant??
Why not?  You can't hurt this thread!!  Nobody here will mind......if you feel like it will help!!  Go for it P!!

I wish I had a magic salve to put on all of our wounds.  Life is too short.

  Sela

[gratitude28]

Portia,
I LOVE your conception of God.
Love, Beth

[Portia]

Oh it's a biggie, good! Hi Sela

I think people who despise God and teach their children to do so are acting just as those who are fanatical and teach their kids that all life evolves around nothing more than God.

Agreed most… fervently! (haha where is that happy medium?)

After awhile........I liked the truth better than the fantasy but I had to first.........know it..........then.........learn more about it.......and finally.....understand it before it was something I accepted and felt good about.

I'm not directing you in any way.  I hope you will perceive that.  

Yes I do. I read your post yesterday and knew from my reaction that I wasn’t LISTENING to you! I was reacting. My reaction was “I don’t think you understand me on this” then I thought….how do I know? I’m jumping right to that conclusion with one quick read. I’m probably missing half or more of what you mean. And I did.

I'm just trying to put in a word for chocolate and apple pie and hvbdhfbgvjh.  It's not all bad.  It's not poisonous.  It won't hurt you unless you eat too much of it or get fanatical about it.  It's acutally......pretty good stuff

Yah. I’m good at seeing the bad stuff. I think that was the legacy of mother’s er….ideas. (I call them ideas but I don’t think they were ‘ideas’ in the true sense. They were warped feelings, more like, maybe. Reaction against her mother. Oh who cares….). So yep, in a sense I was set up to reject it.

This kind of honesty isn’t easy. I’m challenging what I think are my real values and beliefs and finding them to be ….. received conditioning of old. Not new well-considered thoughts.

Darn.

But I can see now that it isn’t all bad and it’s not poisonous. You saying that to me, putting it in those words – bad and poisonous – is pretty ….. interesting. And that comment in itself shows my…prejudice. Oh this hurts . Thank you Sela.

Taking a break to make coffee and unload the washing machine (talk about from the inspiring to the prosaic)….

Thanks Beth .   

[Sela]

Hi again Portia:

This kind of honesty isn’t easy.

No, it sure isn't.  And it is brave and admirable and not everyone has the resolve you do......to be certain of yourself and your own head.    Now it's my turn to value yourrrrrrr amazing honesty!!  I do P!!  Big time!! 

I’m challenging what I think are my real values and beliefs and finding them to be ….. received conditioning of old. Not new well-considered thoughts.

Darn.

I hate it when that happens.    And it's not easy to change what I've relied on for years and years, even if I suddenly realize the old stuff was simply impregnated in my brain by other people.  The old thinking keeps popping back in (for me....it's gone that way anyhow) and it takes effort to reject the old. 

But I can see now that it isn’t all bad and it’s not poisonous. You saying that to me, putting it in those words – bad and poisonous – is pretty ….. interesting. And that comment in itself shows my…prejudice. Oh this hurts

Uh-uh!  You're mother's prejudice.  She's the one who (regardless if it was her messed up feelings/whatever reasons).....taught/insinuated/portrayed/????......the rubbish thingy.

To me......rubbish can be poisonous and toxic.  It can be yucky and bad.  Rubbish is not nice stuff usually.  So that's why I said: "bad and poisonous" because the extended meaning of the word rubbish......means so much eh?  As a child.......would we want to eat rubbish?  play in rubbish?  even be near rubbish?  Oooooooooo yuck!!  No way!!

Best to stay away.....get away.....ooooooo.........stinky...awful.....toxic poo. ( reminds me of the way six year old's love to use toilet talk:  "You're full of poo!!"   "No, you're full of poo!"  "No you are!!"  "No way, you are!!"   ).

Hey Portia!!  I don't always listen either!!  Sometimes I'm stone deaf, like a brick wall!!  Thank goodness some have had the patience to hammer and chip away at the cracks.   Thankyou for the times you've done it.

((((((((P))))))))

  Sela

[Portia]

  Hahahahahahah Sela!! this -

Surely if there’s an easy route it must be…..

A trap!  Or wrong!  Or ‘not-worth-having’ because it isn’t suffering! Like: “oh nooo, I won’t go swimming in that nice, clear, warm pool over there…noooo, I’ll go instead for that big crashing dangerous ocean!” *big huge sigh*

......I'm so impressed with how well you have done and are.....regardless!!

Ah. Thank you. I believe you. You know I think it’s mostly chance though? And that whatever it is, isn’t much really but who’s deciding and judging and comparing and in the end it doesn’t matter but it’s the now that matters and not the end? Haha, verbiage. I guess I mean – I don’t want you to be impressed. I feel uncomfortable with you being impressed. I think that’s okay too. I’d be happier if you were happy. So I’ll take it to mean that. Done! Let’s shake on it?

But I am impressed by you using hvbdhfbgvjh. That’s commitment! Thank you. Commitment. Yeah.

Calling anyone evil is………………..? there are very few absolutes it seems

But calling me evil. I was 17 (same age as you and ‘I hate you’??). I wasn’t a child, I wasn’t an adult. Evil for saying “why?”.

Aurrrrrrrrrrrrghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. 

It must have been a life and death for him at that moment. ?

Mother has told me that he told her: when he was small his mother was very close to him and loved him totally. She was with him all the time. Then one night, when he was 6/7/8/???older? she told him she was going across the road to the pub for a drink with friends. Maybe with his Dad? I know nothing about his Dad, even if he was around or not. The story goes: “I remember going to the window downstairs and putting my hands on the glass and watching her go across the road and into the pub with everyone else. I didn’t think she should be leaving me.”

And back to recently, in living in that remote place, with very few visitors, and with me out of the way, no jobs to go to, he got his woman and he made sure she didn’t leave. Apparently it got to the point where he was following mother around the house. If she went to the toilet, he’d be in the hall, waiting. He didn’t ‘let’ her have her own bank card. He controlled all their money. A prison with a one-man cult. Just before he died she told me he said “you are my love after all”. Chilling and sad at the same time. His ashes lie with those of the cats because that’s what/who he loved the most, his cats. He wasn’t ‘sane’. And she wasn’t sane to stay. Actually it scares me now. It was pretty dire and it could have been much worse, given the practical circumstances. 

Your new post!

And it's not easy to change what I've relied on for years and years, even if I suddenly realize the old stuff was simply impregnated in my brain by other people.

Talk about mastery (or mistressery?) of the understatement . Have I said recently:

You’re a joy, a friend, a healer   Well I did say it, really quickly before anyone notices and you get embarrassed!

BTW yes, mother's kiddie talk, it’s all 6 year old toilet talk when it comes down to it. All of it. Amazing. I'm constantly amazed

[Sela]

Surely if there’s an easy route it must be…..

A trap!

Or an illusion?  Or a mirage?  Or a dead end?  Or a fake?

Yep.  Hahahahaha!    I do that.  Swim with the sharks instead of in the safety of the pool.
Well.....they say whatever doesn't kill us.......makes us stronger!

Me??  Strong like bull!!  (some days......other days........Not!!).

I think it’s mostly chance though?

Ya.  I want to agree with you but.....nope.  I don't think so.  I think you can give yourself credit.  Some of why you are the way you are is because of your own unique attributes, talents, skills, knowledge, gifts, smarts, genetics etc.  I know there were others who helped (your grandparents) but really......you must have a certain.......resilience.......within you, imo, that has helped you to help you too.  A kind of Independence?   Something just about you that helped you reject the worst and embrace the best, I think, and kept you from emulating and dancing and playing the part your mother wanted you to play?  I guess it could be luck?  Lucky for you that you have certain traits of your own eh?

I feel uncomfortable with you being impressed.

Sorry Portia.  I sure don't want to cause you discomfort.  Maybe I said that wrong?  What I mean by impressed is that you leave a good impression with me.  An impression that I like and yes......I'm happy and let's shake on it!

But calling me evil. I was 17 (same age as you and ‘I hate you’??). I wasn’t a child, I wasn’t an adult. Evil for saying “why?”.

Close, I was 16, I think?  I think of 16, 17, 18 even 21.......as kind of still a kid.  I know technically that's not the case but emotionally???  No that grown up  at those ages and still in need of.......loving parents, in a big way (do we ever get too old for or stop needing loving parents??).

So my opinion of him saying that to you (and my parent saying what was said to me) at those ages is still child abuse.  When does child abuse end and adult abuse begin?  Especially, concerning parents behaviour toward their offspring/step children?  Like you say we weren't babies and we weren't adults but deep down inside.....we were still children, weren't we?

there are very few absolutes it seems

Yes, that's certainly the song I sing, most of the time, but when it comes down to it.....this is pretty obvious and especially...since I can't think of a time when it would be ok to call a child/teen "evil" or say:  "I hate you" or "you're nothing" to them.......when that would be acceptable behaviour on any adult's part???  I'm willing to go absolute there.  That's absolute emotional abuse and not something I'm willing to accept as ok to do to any child/teen (and I hesitate to include adult....because of our other discussion, awhile back, but ok.......limited to certain severe situations maybe?).  Basically the words are hurtful, cruel, destructive and seem to show a desire to injure....not nice stuff, I think.

All of the little sad icons you posted I interpret to mean great sadness......great sadness caused by his abusive words.......to a young almost adult.  His words pierced because at that age.......kids are very sensitive, I think.  They are really developing emotionally and words like that from someone in a position of power and trust.........are very damaging/can be very damaging.

He wasn’t ‘sane’.

And I'm sure there are reasons for that and he has his how pain.  I just don't want to discount or let it go without acknowledging how much pain his behaviour caused.  It doesn't matter that he wasn't sane.  If he was sane and said those words......it wouldn't matter either.  It's the words that hurt.  That left the mark.  That went to your core, I think.  Not him.  He's dead and gone.  But for some reason, the pain of his words are alive and well.

Why?  Maybe you believed those words?  Somehow he convinced you at that moment?

I feel angry but not really toward him but toward his behaviour.  He was sick which probably caused him to behave in a sick way but knowing that does not erase the hurt and/or the belief that his words caused in you.  That kind of thing can cause a person to feel worthless.

It was a lie!!  I want to pierce deeper than him!!  You are good and were good then!!    It's good to want to know and live the truth!!  And you've managed to keep trying, regardless of his mean words!!  You've prooved him wrong!! 

  You’re a joy, a friend, a healer   Well I did say it, really quickly before anyone notices and you get embarrassed!

Too late P.    But thanks.  You too.  You are all of those things too P and not just to me, I suspect. 

I just hope you will find a way to cook those awful words he said.......boil them up into a sloppy soup....and keep on high heat until they evaporate/disintegrate/or simply float away and burst, like worn out, weak balloons.......somehow......expell them from your head and especially......from your heart. 

I'm so sorry he hurt you so badly with his cruel words, at such a tender age, and for all the years those words have continued to hurt.   Makes me wonder what he said to your mother, behind closed doors.  Maybe he wasn't all lovey-dovey all the time eh?   Talk some more if it helps P. 

Youch!!  Gotta get hoppin'!!  Hope you enjoyed your coffee break!  Laundry!!  Does it ever end?  Mine is piling up again.      Hope your day is a beaut!!  (same to all!!)

   Sela

[Portia]

Have a good one Sela

While I remember, in the later and crazier years he angrily said to her (in front of witnesses, but not me): “I’ve told you! You don’t have to think! I do all the thinking around here!” (((((poor cult-member mother)))))......

I better go. My bum’s numb 

Edit PS All of the little sad icons you posted I interpret to mean great sadness
If you ever doubt the effect of your words…those icons meant I literally had a good sob. At the time (17) I chose to run like the wind, which was probably a sensible move at the time. Now I don’t have to run. I can cry. Okay enough already. Too much. It’s taken long enough eh? Thanks for your persistence and wonderful obstinacy.