Daughter's Love

[dandylife]

You wrote: "Long story short, my daughter felt shamed by a careless comment I made, and has given me the total silent treatment ever since"

First of all, did you make clear your remorse for making the careless comment? Did you sincerely apologize and let her know it wouldn't happen again? Sometimes this is all it takes to make a person melt and be vulnerable.

Second, I detect a bit of 'reading her mind' when you say your daughter "felt shamed". How do you know how she felt? Did she tell you? Did you discuss it? Could it be that YOU felt shame about the comment you made and not controlling yourself?

I once read a statement in a book about LOVE that talked about honoring the fragility in others. It really struck me and has stayed with me. We are all really fragile inside to the comments of others. Alot of times we respond with a hardness back. It's just a trick to get back and speak to that fragility inside.

Good luck.

[Sela]

Hiya Hops:

This is no fun eh?  I'm so sorry for the hurt you're experiencing and the worry and all the other feelings that go along with all of this.  What to do??

I keep thinking of Eleanor Roosevelt   and that "You'll be damned if you do and damned if you don't.”  comment.

I vote for expressing your feelings in a gentle, supportive way and about some of your wants/needs.

Maybe you could let her know how much you care about her, how you are concerned for her welfare and want only the best and happiest life for her?  What if you express how you'd really like to be close with her but how you understand that she is a grown woman now, making her way in the world and that she needs her space?  And last, that you are proud of her and respect her and are going to allow her whatever space she needs and that you will always be glad to listen, always here, if she wishes to share about her life (that you are interested and enjoy her company and would love to hear from her regularly)?

And leave it at that.    Give her space and time to think?

Then, if the next time she contacts you......if she begins by asking for financial assistance or whatnot......what if you re-express how glad you are to hear from her!  How much you care about her and think about her and miss her!  How proud you are of her and interested in hearing about how things are going, if she would like to share?

How do you think that would go?  It's not easy at all, is it? 

Maybe you can decide exactly how much financial assistance you are willing to give her and set a limit (for yourself).  Then you can explain that you will not be going past that limit, because she is an adult and you want allow her to take responsibility for herself (it's your job as a parent to help her learn to do that eh?).

I just feel I can't make any mistakes or she will abandon me.

Hops, do you want to let this fear rule your behaviour?

It's impossible for you not to make mistakes, so it's only a matter of time, if you really believe this.

What if you were to decide to abandon this idea?  And adopt something else -- decide not to believe your worst fear will happen?

((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((Hoppy))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Sela

[moonlight52]

Hops  I am sending all my thoughts of love to you and your daughter .

Maybe a little not holding on to tight right now would be good for your daughter to see strength in you.So many times gentleness is taken for weakness .

That is what I have found.

Hoppy I send my whole hearts love to you .

Hugs
Moon

[moonlight52]

Dear Hops ,I reread Sela's post.   She is so correct and right on.

Love and Light

Moon

[mountainspring]

((((Hops)))) 

[pennyplant]

Hi (((Hops)))

I'm sorry this is happening.  It is so very hard.  When it comes right down to it, you will do what you feel most comfortable with.  My hope for you is that you don't continue to beat yourself up about this.

I don't think anything is forever.  I have seen people reconnect when I thought it was never possible.  People grow and change.  Sometimes it takes quite awhile, though.

It seems to me that your comment set her off out of all proportion to what was actually said and why you said it.  So, that probably means something else or something additional is going on with your daughter.  And that belongs to her.  My opinion is that the only thing you might say is an apology for the comment and for possibly hurting her feelings.  That's all.  That should be enough punishment for the "crime".  The rest is hers.

I tend to go along with Portia and Stormy as far as something of a tough love approach.  Not even so much that it is "tough" but that there is distance both physically and emotionally.  Some kind of neutrality.  You have done your utmost.  And that is enough now.  No more guessing what might be going through her mind.  That is for her to reveal when and if she wishes.  No more worrying about the job you did.  You did fine.  You really did.

I see the love you give here and the respect you give to others here.  That is the real you.  She will see that in time too.  And appreciate it.

Your daughter has to take a lower place now on your list of priorities.  She is a 25-year-old adult.  She can take care of herself.  When I was 25, I had one son in first grade and a baby at home, possessions, responsibilities, etc.  Not that I recommend this!!  But 25 is old enough to be out there in the world and even be responsible for the lives of others.  She is old enough to be completely responsible for herself.  She will find the resources to solve her own problems, as well she should.  Whether it is kind of messy or not.

I hope this isn't coming off as a scolding.  It is not intended as such.  That thing about "when I was 25, I had a son in first grade...." that is how I give myself perspective.  The rest of the world expected me to be very responsible at that age since I had children, and that was as it should be.  Therefore, to me, the other stuff is a given.  Old enough to make mistakes and solve them, old enough to have a home and a paycheck and get to work on time, old enough to own her own feelings and responses to others.

I think the hardest role is that of mother.  So much is expected of us.  Much of it not reasonable.  Yet, we are judged or judge ourselves harshly based on how well we replicate those unreasonable expectations.  So unfair.  I hope you forgive yourself for what you have perceived as your shortcomings.  Because chances are those really weren't such bad things afterall.  But forgive yourself anyway.  Then start with today and who you are and where you are now.

You know, we rarely see or hear from our son.  He calls us on the major holidays.  Looks forward to seeing us once or twice a year for a couple of days.  He rode a bus all night long to get here in time for his grandfather's funeral.  When we do talk, he fills us in.  But he keeps a lot to himself.  At one time, I didn't think we would even have that much with him.  Similar situation as Adrift describes with her 1st D.  But he does care for us and thinks of us.  We give him space and don't worry very much anymore.  We accept him as he is and try to respect him as we would any other adult who we liked a lot.  He knows we love him.  We know he loves us.  He is different from us in many ways.  And the same in many other ways.  Small gifts, but when I remember how it used to be and how I thought he would just leave us forever..... it's enough.  We just had to trust him in the end to know what was best for his life.  And he did know what was best.

Hops, I hope you are feeling all this support coming your way.  It is very heartfelt.

Love, Pennyplant

[Hopalong]

Hi all,
I'm overwhelmed by all the support and thoughtfulness. Thank you.
I need some time to walk and think and then re-read and give you the responses you deserve.

I am very grateful.
Thank you all.

love,
Hops

[Hopalong]

Just want to thank every one of you again, so profoundly.
This is so painful for me to look at, think through, and compose a reponse to you about that it may take me a while.

I just want to be sure you know I'm not taking your caring and effort in your amazing responsiveness and generorsity for granted.

I am letting all your voices sit in my heart. I'm trying to hear it all and find peace about this and I will.
Then I will write.

Meanwhile, my most grateful thanks
and love,

Hops

[mum]

Hi, Hops . Wow, this is tough. I have a daughter, too, although she is  only 13, but I know how emotional the mother daughter relationship can be.
You have recieved  a lot of good advice... and although my d is younger, it's good to remember: everyone is responsible for themselves. You can only take care of "your side of the street". What she does on her side, is up to her. Yes, letting go of wanting...anything....something different.....is key in getting free of this fear. You won't die without her approval, nor will she die without yours. It would be nice to all get along, but she may just need a while to figure this out...and you too.

So in the meanwhile....I will send healing thoughts....images of peace and  sweet love to you both...
You know the "deep down"...so does she...have some faith, Hops.

[gratitude28]

Hops,
A few things from your posts...
Yes, I believe she is very angry with you about the bulimia warning she gave you. I was a very unhappy tenn/young adult, and I gave out many signals to my parents of this sort in the hopes that they would help me. I think you need to talk to her about this NOW. You should say you have been thinking about it and you would really like to know if she is having problems with it and if you can help her. You should also tell her that hurting herslef is HER CHOICE and that she is hurting herself only, and while you love her and can help her find help, you can't make her stop hurting herself. She is feeling much the wounded child now.
I also believe that you are taking on too much from her. She is an adult (though she is not acting much like one). She is also an angry adult. It is no doubt coming from many things... the broken home... possibly she is upset by the "second family." At any rate, YOU CANNOT CONTROL HER. WHat she does now is her choice. DO NOT let her manipulate you by withholding love. I fully believe you should say to her, "Honey, I love you tremendously. You are an adult and you can choose how you want to treat me. Your choices, good or bad, are your choices. I will no longer support you financially." I know this sounds harsh, but she is using you now, and not treating you with respect.. If you allow her to continue to do this, she will never show you the respect you deserve.
(((((((((((((((((((((((((((Hops))))))))))))))))))))))))) Be strong!!!!!
Love, Beth

[WRITE]

Hopalong,

I don't really have any advice or wisdom except something I have always believed with children:

even if the door isn't always open, leave it unlocked.
And a light in the window, soup on the stove....

You can't make her more mature, you can't make her appreciate the parts of herself which she needs to change, she'll only discover that in time ( as you have, as I have )
You can however keep loving her whilst working on stuff you feel you need to eg boundaries or assertiveness or whatever you particularly feel you need etc.

It takes people a while to adjust to change, and if you've always been in a certain role then over time you've seen it as unhealthy and altered things- she may see that as rejection.

If she has some N traits like her father, that is rejection infinity squared, way out of proportion.

But as well- some kids need a long time of establishing themselves and their independence before parents are fully allowed back in their lives. If she's made lots of mistakes, she'll be more sensitive to that.

The best thing you can do is make a good, happy life for yourself, and be pleased to see her & share it with her when she visits.

[Hopalong]

Hi, all.
I have absorbed so much help from your responses.

Dandylife:

did you make clear your remorse for making the careless comment? Did you sincerely apologize and let her know it wouldn't happen again?

I did...at the time. But it bore repeating.

And..

'reading her mind' when you say your daughter "felt shamed". How do you know how she felt? ....Could it be that YOU felt shame...

You're right, she didn't say that. But I saw it produce rage followed by tears and fury, and I thought that looked like shame. Yes, I was ashamed about my thoughtless remark. Definitely.

I love the idea that love is honoring the fragility in others. Thank you.
--------------

Brigid,
This feels very true: 

I'm guessing that you have been trying alleviate some guilt from the years you were with her dad by enabling and excusing her less than positive behaviors.  I get it, believe me.  But she's crossing the line

  I think you have both of us pegged. I'm going to try being kind/assertive/nurturing but not a doormat, etc. Whew, I'm dizzy! I not only feel guilt about leaving her Dad (though I couldn't have stayed) but especially for my 2nd major-N husband, whom she disliked and who shadowed the 2nd half of her childhood. He was as lousy a stepfather as husband, and I was all swoony over his attention --at frist--didn't note the red flags (one of which was her strong objection, at age 8, which she overrode to be supportive to me. But she knows my heartfelt regret.)

Sela,
I took your advice, all of it. Much love and respect, telling her all the reasons I'm so proud of her, and how I know she's juggling so many different scenarios about her future. Told her I want an adult relationship in which I treat her with respect and courtesy and that's how I want to be treated too. I did add that I'd like to hear from her more often, and that if I leave her a personal message I'd like an answer, because I'd been feeling that she was only interested if I had something she wanted and that hurt. I could second-guess my message to her but it felt honest and like me.
----
Penny:
This gave me a lot of relief:

distance both physically and emotionally.  [well, not that part...I don't really WANT distance, but I think letting go will amount to the same thing for a time up to her....] Some kind of neutrality.  You have done your utmost.  And that is enough now.  No more guessing what might be going through her mind.  That is for her to reveal when and if she wishes.  No more worrying about the job you did.  You did fine.  You really did.

Except I truly would find it terribly hard to only see her twice a year as you have accepted with your son. I hope we wind up closer than that. But I do have to let her go and come back as she needs to.
Thanks PP.
---------
Hope:
Your wisdom, calm, and perceptiveness give me HOPE.

I'm guessing that she's feeling exceptionally vulnerable right now and possibly doubting her own ability to live up to your desires/expectations for her life. I think that she's interpreted your rather flip response re: how to make herself throw up as a sign that your previous concern re: her suspected bulimia was not sincere. She wants you to rescue her from herself, and yet at the same time she will fight tooth and nail against any attempts on your part to do just that. In order to relieve the pressure she's feeling, it's easier for her to just put you in the box labeled "phony and insincere" than to deal with the reality that she's the only one who can make wise choices now and control herself.

You're messing with my head because if it's your religious faith that gives you this confidence and insight, then I am missing something I haven't found yet. Thank you profoundlly.
---------------
Portia:
You're so smart and succinct you blow me away! Thanks, P, for this clear sound thought:

what you’re doing isn’t working for you, so stop doing it and see what happens?

-------
Have to take a break...I can't believe 12 people responded to lift me up.

You DID.

Thank you,
Hops

[Plucky]

Hi Hoppy,
you have a lot going on right now!  How are you coping?  It must be next to impossible.  Please do not expect to be perfect now.  Just get through it all in one piece.  That alone will be a feat!   Allow yourself to make some mistakes.

Your title is a little surprising.  Your daughter will always be your D and you will have your ups and downs.  Maybe it feels like you are losing her love over this one issue. But that is not possible.  Maybe she will be hurt, upset, withdraw....but not stop loving you.  Can you agree with that?

Maybe coming from your childhood or a marriage is that fear of losing the love of your loved one by making a mistake.  A small mistake.  And this fear had to be confronted every day.  And you had to live with stress and on eggshells.

But a normal relationship is not destroyed by a single act of, what at worst might have been thoughtlessness.   You cannot possibly destroy the entire relationship with your daughter just by making that sort of comment.

Only if that comment were part of a web of critiism or lies or putdowns,...you get the drift.  Only if it were the very last straw.

So you can relax about having to salvage the whole relationship now.  You can stop punishing yourself about ruining your daughter's love.  The love is not on the line.   Give her the space she needs to grow up, work through things on her own.  You hit a sore spot.  You tried to make it right.  That is all you can do.

You are a good mother.  Not perfect.

Also remember that whatever you do, you are still teaching her.  If you desperately hound her to reassure you that she still loves you, she is learning that behaviour too.  Just think where and when it might come out.

Don't worry about thanking people.  It is nice, but no one posts up here in order to get a thank you back.  I am so glad you are here and getting great advice on this thread.  You are so nice.  And you deserve all the love and friendship you attract here.

the prodigal
Plucky

[mudpuppy]

Where has the prodigal plucky been?
Not dining with the pigs I hope.

Nice to see you, plucky.

mud

[lightofheart]

Hi Hops,

I'm sorry these issues with your D. hurt so much. I'm sorry for her pain, too; it must be hard to bear. Seems like it must be incredibly hard for a giving parent to see their emotional needs as equally important to their kids'. Some folks never get there. Hope you can credit yourself with guts just for trying to address what feels wrong in this relationship, even if your D.'s receptiveness is limited now.

For what it's worth, I think you've already received and taken much good advice here, particularly from yourself:

She is reminding me so much of her father's mean streak lately, and I'd never seen that from her before, and I am scared by it. If there was one thing in the universe I thought I could count on, it was the love between my daughter and me. I know I have to let go, and let her choose what kind of person she wants to be. I also know part of the reason I'm getting so much bile from her is that I'm the only family she's close enough to to act out with. But I hate this. I feel punished, way out of proportion to my "crime".

I would like very much to nip it in the bud, and I do agree that I must respect myself and require respectful behavior from her too.

[/color]

Daylily

How much of this is really about you is difficult to say, but my guess is that some of it is also about other things or people.

[/color]

Stormy

On another thread I saw someone give the excellent example of the poor rats with the electric shock. That was in response to a mother's behavior towards someone here. It goes the other way too. Children can do the same thing to parents, it's not just handed down, sometimes it gets handed up.

[/color]
Sela

I keep thinking of Eleanor Roosevelt   and that "You'll be damned if you do and damned if you don't.”  comment.

I vote for expressing your feelings in a gentle, supportive way and about some of your wants/needs.

[/color]
Plucky

Also remember that whatever you do, you are still teaching her.  If you desperately hound her to reassure you that she still loves you, she is learning that behaviour too.  Just think where and when it might come out.

[/color]

I hope you're feeling some peace now for the brave act of telling your D. how you feel? That's what's most important; Hops' heart.

In my own FOO, to me the worst legacy of my F.'s N-stuff (who came up with 'nidiocy' ; ooh, that's good!) wasn't his direct abuse, but the negative models he taught the rest of us re. how to treat each other, which we kept alive after he was gone. My Mom and I loved and liked each other, but she was hypercritical of me from childhood on, and once I finally realized how much that hurt (and became committed to healthier relationships with everyone in my life, including me) it had to stop. Period.

imho, significantly changing a lifelong FOO dynamic, especially when one person doesn't welcome the change, is beyond hard. Really, it was loads to expect, that my Mom would honor boundaries, drawn by her youngest, that she herself hadn't learned to set. I must've been called oversensitive 6 million times. She said worse stuff, too, wounding sh*&. Often she and my sibling ganged up on me, ala Karpman;'It's you who's the problem!' I was yelled at, ignored, accused, and hung up on. One day I finally howled (literally), 'You know Mom, everytime you call me oversensitive when I've just told you my feelings are hurt, I feel like you're really just giving yourself permission to keep on doing it, what you're really saying is hurting me is easier for you than treating me better. And if you think I'm gonna' give up asking for what I need, you don't know me. Because I'm not asking for anything I don't give you.'

imho, consistently striving for a change like this can be emotionally brutal work. The negative feedback can hurt like hell, even for years. A thankless, sh*&-wading endeavor. Is it ever worth it, though, imho, no matter what happens. At a minimum, trying that hard can teach you a lot about yourself. Even if the other person needs space at times. Sooner or later, so long as they're capable of progress, things will change, maybe only an inch at a time. But those inches pile up, in the nicest way. That's what I most wish you, Hops: lots of love and courage and support for this trip you've already started. And you've got the very best asset: Hops!

hugs,
LoH

PS- there's another E. Roosevelt quote I like, we have it on a fridge magnet: "You must do the thing you think you cannot do."