Daughter's Love

[Hopalong]

A long post I just wrote vanished. I'm too tired to reconstruct it.

Long story short, my daughter felt shamed by a careless comment I made, and has given me the total silent treatment ever since (won't respond to easy messages that say, how are things going?) and ignores all emails...unless I have something she wants. I offered her a mattress and after not speaking to me for weeks she responded right away.

No thanks, and no love. That's how it's feeling and it's very very painful. I think there's nothing I can do but wait...except that I am truly afraid that she is making a pivotal decision that she wants to have a totally superficial relationship with me, and to hell with treating me like a human being.

I can make no mistakes with her. She rages and rejects, unless she wants money.

That's all, really.

I just don't know if I should tell her how this is making me feel, or join her in the silence.
Neither feels right, and I don't know what to do.

Hops

[gratitude28]

Hops, I don't know enough about your situation to give any thoughtful input. How old is your daughter? Could this be something realted to age/a phase. I know young adults have a hard time seeing past their own existences. I really think you SHOULD tell her how you feel. Not to attack her, but to say, hey, do you realize how I feel? I feel like you only talk to me when you want something. I love you and I feel that I am just an object to you. Maybe she is just not seeing beyond herself right now.

(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((Hops))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

[Hopalong]

She's 25....she dropped out of college after her Dad died 6 years ago, went through some very dark times and behaviors, then re-enrolled and finished well. Now she's doing part-time jobs and planning to try for grad school. She's never had any therapy except for a few months when her Dad and I split when she was six. She and I used to be very very close (too enmeshed).

I just feel I can't make any mistakes or she will abandon me. And I guess the way I feel now is that she basically has.

When I briefly spoke to her on the phone a few nights ago, her dislike when she realized it was me, was something I'd never heard in her voice before.

She does things I've disliked too, but I would not withhold my love. My biggest fear is that she will make this a permanent stance toward me and she's my only child and I don't know how I could ever be happy again.

Hops
[edit PS: I know that sounds dramatic and self-pitying. I also know it was my own Nspots that contributed to our being enmeshed when she was younger. I know a whole list of my mistakes as a mother by heart. But I've never been intentionally mean to her. Ever. She is reminding me so much of her father's mean streak lately, and I'd never seen that from her before, and I am scared by it. If there was one thing in the universe I thought I could count on, it was the love between my daughter and me. I know I have to let go, and let her choose what kind of person she wants to be. I also know part of the reason I'm getting so much bile from her is that I'm the only family she's close enough to to act out with. But I hate this. I feel punished, way out of proportion to my "crime". And since it seems to be her very strong (and lasting) reaction to shame, it's just causing me to have a lot of fears about who she's become. Most of all, I want her to be a good and happy person. I have known for some time that it might take her a long struggle to learn to be happy (so far, she's refused therapy)...but it's only lately I've started to wonder about whether she would intentionally be unkind. The night I made my final decision to leave her father was a night he intentionally chose to be hurtful to her (in order to wound me)--and she went to bed crying her heart out. Ironically, 20 years later, I feel she's treating me the same way.

[Gail]

Hi Hops,

I'm so sorry to hear about your daughter.  I have one like that, too.  If I give her money, I'm a great mom.  If I request respect when she is disrespectful, she rages.  She even threatened to call the police when I balked at giving her money that she thought she should have.  When I asked her to leave my house because she was ridiculing my judgment in front of the other children, she said to me, "What are you going to do, call the police?"  I know it's extremely painful, but I've had to harden my heart to it for my own sanity.

You said you feel you can't "make a mistake" because your daughter will abandon you.  I might be wrong, but is it possible she is manipulating you with that fear?   It has nothing really to do with whether or not you can act perfectly right in her eyes.  No one can bear that burden.  Love doesn't require that. 

It must be doubly hard because she is your only child.  But, in the long run, respect yourself and require her to respect you, too.   Otherwise, it's not a healthy relationship--not good for you and not good for her, either.

Gail

[Hopalong]

Thank you, Gail. I am very sorry about what you've been through with this daughter. It must have been agonizing.

I'm praying my D and I are not so profoundly estranged. I would like very much to nip it in the bud, and I do agree that I must respect myself and require respectful behavior from her too.

In the issue of ignored messages with questions (such as, how is your job going? How are things? What do you do to prepare for your GREs, are the books helping any?--spread out over several messages and some period of time...it's not an inquisition). How do you think I can "require respect" from her in terms of the silent, distant treatment? Or when she's bossy and curt, and just responds when she wants something?

What sort of thing can I say that will get that across, or do I say nothing?

I hate the idea of returning her silent treatment with the same. Likewise, I don't think I should be begging her to treat me decently.

There mustbe some way to steer this back from the brink. I can't bring myself to think that she is so far gone. She has never been this way to me before. Irritable and defensive, yes. But also funny and companionable. When I would visit her at school she would always be affectionate to me with her friends, and we'd do movies together, etc. and go to church...such a short while ago.

Several things have happened that upset her: her stepmother decided she didn't like me any more (perhaps my D is blaming me) so we're no longer her "two Moms" although we'd been friends, I embarrassed her by writing about her tattoos to her hosts in France, and the careless remark I made recently was when she asked me, oddly "I ate too much, do you know how a person can make themselves throw up?" And I was distracted by the TV and didn't stop to think and just looked at her and said well I think you already know how to do that. (A few years back I had traveled to her city in a panic because her stepmother had alerted me to what she believed, and I did too, was bulimic behavior. I had been blind. Anyway, she denied it but was very affectionate with me when I came, though shocked. I remember her roommate wandering through saying, well I wish I had a mom who would drive down south to tell me she was afraid I had bulimia!). Anyway, she's normal weight+ now, quit smoking, re-enrolled in school and finished well, and though she talks about a "nervous stomach" from time to time I have stopped worrying about bulimia. But...when I made this careless thoughtless remark when she was visiting, she blew up, shook her finger in my face (she'd never done anything like that before) and demanded that I retract my belief that she had ever had it. I eventually backpedaled, but that's what started this round of ignoring my messages and walling me out.

PPS--good article. Scares me to pieces (I'm afraid I'm everything bad or N she describes) but it's good: http://www.onlineparadigm.com/archives/214-F02_A.GI.MH.P.pdf

[adrift]

At 25, she's got a lot going on in her life and she's still trying to find herself, IMHO.

 We've struggled with our eldest DD since she was 3 yo (I'm not kidding!).  She's 19 now, and looking back I can see how things I did made the situations worse. She and I have a strained relationship and that is painful.  I've learned that when she's most disrespectful, there's usually lots of other things bothering her.  She's one that lets everything build up inside herself and she always views her glass as half-empty.  Course that later part she learned from my negative behaviours. From things I"ve learned on this board and research I've done, I can see I was too enmeshed in my DD--I put too much emotional dependence on her and her life.  I was too controlling and tried to live vicariously through her many times.   My DD also resents questions these days, even simple ones,  and I can see she really needs her space.  She has blocked me out in many ways and has chosen basically her friends over us (me, her dad, her sister and her brother).  Of course when she wants something, that is a whole different story.  The river of tears I've cried over her through the years is incredible. I do think DD1 has N traits, but I'm praying she'll "see the light" as I have and become a more whole person.  DD1 has refused counseling and won't take her antidepressants anymore, which we believe she needs. She has seroius anger issues in most  aspects of her life (she learned the anger bit from me too  ) and hasn't done well so far in college.

Getting to the point.  Sounds to me like maybe your daughter needs her space right now and even simple questions on your part aren't going to be welcomed for a while at least.  From what I've read about the Karpman triangle, etc... it's healthy for your daughter to break away.  Maybe the meaness you hear in her is her way of breaking some ties with you      Which hurts you tremendously, but she probably can't see or realize that. I don't think we ever understand the pain we cause our parents until we become parents. And while it would be great if she would get counseling, you can't make her and even if you could, she would resent that too.  I know it must hurt much more deeply with her being your only family left, but if you believe in prayer, pray hard for her and yourself.  Pray that she will find the independence and maturity she needs and work through her anger issues.  Only when she has done these things will she be ready to reforge a bond with you, IMHO.

 I've found that the only way to get along with DD1 is to be pleasant and happy sounding when I talk to her, don't ask questions, don't be needy, and try to share something fun or happy in my life.  Recently I've explained to her that I know I haven't been the best mom (well I've told her before this too) and that I'm sorry for things I've done and that I feel our relationship is strained and that I know she needs her space right now and that she's getting to the age where I won't be her mother so much anymore and that I hope our relationship can move to a "friend" level and that I'm here when she needs me.  That seemed to ease the tensions a little.

Keep talking to us about it, maybe we can help.  I'll say a prayer tonight for you and your DD. 

[Portia]

((((((((Hops)))))))

A long post I just wrote vanished. I'm too tired to reconstruct it.

How about writing in Word and pasting in? That way you won’t lose anything unless Word crashes (and even then it should recover your document). Okay? Serious point here, Frankl style probably!

You say she felt shamed by your comment. From what you say, she reacted very angrily. Does that indicate shame? I don’t know. Are you sure she felt shamed is what I’m asking, did you ask her.

What does abandoning you look like? You’ve stayed very close to your mother and maybe your daughter is reacting against that; i.e. pulling away from you because in that emotional logic, she thinks “there’s no way I’m going to be like mom”.

She’s young, she’s trying to find her own way in life, she has many problems to resolve and you, Hops I’m sorry, are not the person to help her resolve those problems. You’re her mother and as such are the person she will rage against, the one she will be angry with, the one she will reject etc etc etc.

You are the most important relationship in your daughter’s life. You will suffer because of that and that’s awful, but it is life.

I’d wager that she can’t abandon you. I can’t abandon my mother, it’s an impossibility. What she can do is find her own life and see you as a separate person. Maybe you can help her do that by letting her find her way and not expecting her to relate to you in a healthy way right now.

While she’s in her problem-finding-and –solving stage, you can help by not putting additional pressure on your relationship. Let her be and wait for her to want to talk to you. I don’t see that as the silent treatment; I see that as graciously allowing her to make the choice for herself. Tough I know, but maybe she'll learn from having that space. How about it?

[Healing&Hopeful]

((((((((((Hoppy)))))))))))

How painful this must be for you and your daughter.

I think the first thing I want to say is don’t beat yourself up for not being the perfect mother, or for making any mistakes.  Who is the perfect parent?  What parent doesn’t make mistakes?  I’m not sure how long she’s been giving you the silent treatment?

You asked about what sort of things you can say or do you say nothing?  I don’t feel you should say nothing, so what can you say….  At 25 I’m guessing that she thinks nothing can fase her, she’s still got a lot of the I’m indestructible.  She has also been through so much that she may have a tough exterior, an if I can get through that I can get through anything?  I don’t know her so I’m only speculating here…

So maybe a way is to not ask her questions… just a simple how are you and that you are missing her, and then let her know what’s happening in your life, finishing with a hope to hear from you soon, lots of love, Mum.  No pressure, no questions, but with an opening for her to share what she wants with you, when she wants to. 

(((((((((((Hoppy)))))))))))))

Love H&H xx

PS:  And your not without your D's love... it's just buried under other things at the moment.  Even if you look at my situation with bio dad, I still care.

[Stormchild]

Just thinking along a different line here. If this doesn't help, please just pass it by...

If you replace the word 'daughter' with the word 'mother', or the word 'friend', what kind of picture do you form of the person's behavior then?

I'm seeing a vivid picture of someone who manages to behave pleasantly as long as she gets her way in all respects... I'm not really seeing much evidence of love, rather, it seems to me that she's relating to you more like she might to her favorite vending machine. You push the button, it gives. If it doesn't give, you kick it and swear at it.

I know it would be lovely if families really were different, special, and better; it would be wonderful if blood ties really created an instinct to cherish, honor, and preserve one another; but I truly think we have ample proof - not only in our own lives [what brought us here, after all?] but in any daily newspaper on any given day - that this is not the case. Not automatically. Look at Moon... her family [Mr. Moon and the Moonlets] loves, but they've WORKED at it. And every one of them had to want it to work, or it wouldn't have, not for all of them. There's only so much a parent can do, if a child won't meet them even halfway.

Hops, has there ever been a problem with alcohol or substance abuse, that you know of or have suspected? That can also result in this type of behavior...

On another thread I saw someone give the excellent example of the poor rats with the electric shock. That was in response to a mother's behavior towards someone here. It goes the other way too. Children can do the same thing to parents, it's not just handed down, sometimes it gets handed up.

Good old ever-cheerful Stormy, over and out.

[Portia]

Storm, what’s the answer? ...

I think to live and let live and see what happens next. Hops has 56 years of life experience, her D has 25. I think an attitude of wait and see might help? 25 is still young, the brain has only just finished growing and learning it’s planning skills, I’m for giving her space and a break….which I suppose is what you’re saying

There's only so much a parent can do, if a child won't meet them even halfway.

here, differently? Another point, a parent may not actually be in a position of power over the adult child, but the child may still see it that way……so there’s lots to consider... Not easy, never is I guess.

[Stormchild]

P, I don't think there's an answer in the sense of a simple solution for all concerned... people are too complicated for that... but they do say in recovery that if doing something doesn't work, continuing to do it even harder isn't likely to work any better.

Maybe a partial answer is to let go. 'The bank's officially and permanently closed. I'm no longer going to try to purchase your love. I love you, but I cannot go on living like this, being treated well only when I have something you want, and only until the instant you get it. You know where to find me if you ever decide you want things to be different and better than this between us. It's up to you now. I've done what I could, and it just doesn't work.' [Then you send cards for Christmas and birthdays, etc., but otherwise you let things be.]

But you really have to be prepared to stick with it, because verbal boundaries don't work; they have to be set through actions, or in this case ceasing to act [rescue].

This used to be called 'tough love'. What it is, is allowing someone to experience the consequences of their behavior... and it is never easy, and it always hurts.

[Portia]

Thanks Storm, I see where you’re going now and I agree with the course of action – or inaction. Letting go and losing those expectations so that whatever happens…happens.

Hops, I agree with Storm, what you’re doing isn’t working for you, so stop doing it and see what happens? That’s one idea. Prodigal son stuff I guess, sort of? Course you don’t need to say anything (probably better not to, saying anything would be a show-down), just don’t act, don’t communicate …and see what your D does. And when she does get in touch? (which she will I’d bet) – see if you can have some kind of reciprocal relationship. I’m hoping for the best.

[Brigid]

Hops,
I'm really, really sorry for the pain this must be causing you.  When we are experiencing problems with our children, it does feel like someone cut out a chunk of our heart and stomped on it.

I don't believe that your D is abandoning you at any level.  I think she is just testing the limits of your unconditional love (which in their minds also means an unconditional, continuous supply of money, clean laundry, meals, vehicles--whatever they need to live their lives comfortably).  I don't think you can do any more than what you have already done to fix the situation.  I'm guessing that you have been trying alleviate some guilt from the years you were with her dad by enabling and excusing her less than positive behaviors.  I get it, believe me.  But she's crossing the line and she is an adult who must now figure out her own life.

As hard as it is, I agree that some "tough love" is probably necessary at this juncture.  No need to be mean or angry--just maintain an indifference to her hurtful statements and behaviors.  When she can no longer gets a rise out of you through being difficult, she may decide to try a different tact to get your attention.  Hopefully, she will eventually realize that working with you rather than against you will gain her a lot more ground, and the attention she craves. 

Hugs,

Brigid

   

[Certain Hope]

Hi Hops,

I have a strong "hunch" to share with you.... for what it's worth. My eldest is 24 and we've been through some challenging encounters over the years.

I don't think that your daughter was shamed by your "careless remark". I'm guessing that she's feeling exceptionally vulnerable right now and possibly doubting her own ability to live up to your desires/expectations for her life. I think that she's interpreted your rather flip response re: how to make herself throw up as a sign that your previous concern re: her suspected bulimia was not sincere. She wants you to rescue her from herself, and yet at the same time she will fight tooth and nail against any attempts on your part to do just that. In order to relieve the pressure she's feeling, it's easier for her to just put you in the box labeled "phony and insincere" than to deal with the reality that she's the only one who can make wise choices now and control herself. Her battle is not with you, it's with the parts of you that she sees within herself... those parts that she thinks make her weak and susceptible to injury. I believe that this will pass as you continue to share yourself openly and transparently with her, remembering that she is 25 on the outside, but still facing some adolescent power struggles within. As she tests the limits of your love, she'll learn how to recognize the source her own emotions and reign them in, if you can express yourself without condemning her for "making" you feel as you do. In other words, yeah, I think you need to tell her how you feel, maybe in writing, without interruptions or opportunities for word twisting and blame shifting. Seems to me that "kids" (even at 25) often try on for size the attitudes of those with whom they were exposed while growing up. Whether that's more a consequence of nature or nurture seems irrelevant. All we can do is be open and honest with our kids and determined not to reinforce the negative stuff. Sorry you're going through this now, but truly it's an open door to a whole new level of relationship,

With love,
Hope

[daylily guest]

Hops, I'm so sorry for everything you're going through.  It must be very painful.

I can only offer the perspective of my own family.  My oldest sister went through some of the same things with my mother, including a lot of come-here-go-away behavior and comments.  She really drove my mother to the limit for a number of years.  But in the end, my sister developed a way of dealing with my mother that worked for her.  She kept my mother at arm's length, but she never withdrew or ceased contact.  It wasn't the relationship my mother wanted, but even my mother was able to admit that it probably worked for my sister and was far better than nothing.  But this didn't establish itself until my sister was in her forties.

All I'm really trying to say, and all I really know, is that mother/daughter relationships are a lifelong work-in-progress.  They develop in cycles.  This is a very unpleasant cycle for you, but it may be necessary for your daughter's growth.  She obviously has a lot going on in her life, and she's still establishing herself as an adult.  How much of this is really about you is difficult to say, but my guess is that some of it is also about other things or people.

For now, please know that my thoughts are with you.

best,
daylily