abusive communities

[Sela]

Dear Jac:

Your anger is valid.  You have plenty to be angry about.  And hurt/sad/disgusted/frustrated/heck even anxious and afraid... about (I imagine...tbese might be feelings you might have??  The fear, if it were me would be a) that she at some time finds some way to jump/get back/take revenge/in some huge way or b) that I might lose it and take her on ( ).  Ofcourse, those are just thoughts......not actions.  Thoughts that cause fear eh?  Thoughts that can be disregarded.

Something that has helped me.....a big thought:

Thinking about what others have done/how much it has harmed me/how deaf and/or gullible those NOT involved have been/all the corruption/deception etc.... and experiencing all of my pain, my feelings, etc........

for me...that's part of grieving the whole experience and a great and necessary part, which takes time.

But ......it's clear to me now that my feelings ....my anger, frustration, disgust, deep sadness, anxiety, guilt, shame, and all fear..........are not known about by those who caused them.....not computed by them.  They don't give a hoot.  My feelings don't effect them.  My feelings effect me.  So the longer I hang onto those......the more effect they will have.

Maybe this idea will help you to let go of your anger??  Or maybe you're not ready to do that yet?

I'm glad you're talking here.  I wish we could all meet in a small cafe for coffee/tea/whatnot and I would maybe not spit everything out, like I do here, (having time to think and type and backspace and retype..even then....maybe not getting it all down as I mean or clearly or sensibly)......but if we met, for sure I would communicate my wish to support you and give you a real live hug and tell you, as Portia did, that you are indeed innocent.

Ya know, there's a big thingy about placing blame but I personally think it's ok to place blame when we have been abused.  The blame is not yours, in any way, Jac, re that lying, sneaking, cheating, backstabbing boyfriend, nor what happened with your father, or your mother's total absense of compassion and extreme denial.  Those are all behaviours that belong to THEM, not you.   You are good.  And getting better!!

(((((((((((((((((((((((((Jac))))))))))))))))))))))))

Hey P:

On the other hand, information and knowledge is now travelling around the globe faster and with less control (was Google right to offer a censored search to China? I guess it’s better than just saying ‘no’). Charities are amongst those daughters and sons, trying their best. There is hope!

Yes.  Three cheers for those fighting the beast!!  Thanks for reminding me of that hope, P. 

 

Mind you, we talk about being abusive to each other, what about our attitude to our only home? Big problems to sort out! I hope we do sort them out.

Not sure I know what you mean Portia.  Which home are you referring to?  Maybe I need another coffee this morning eh?

Have a day full of hope all!!

Sela

[Hopalong]

Hey Portia,
Did you mean our planet home?

I grieve a lot about that. The whole tragic mess, headlines full of hatred, and meanwhile the planet heats up while thick-as-an-oilpump politicians flap their jaws, and every single day, more endangered species die out... Only hope I see is in alternative energy. There is NO reason we can't invent it and it's pathetic we lost so much time. Got a good start in the 60s and then everyone goes, ooooh, it's expensive and difficult to invent this. Hmmm, let's invent something else. Oh I know! (By now it's the 90s)...let's invent SUVs! Aren't we CLEVER! (Grrrrr........)

Hops

[Sela]

Hey Hop!

Thanks eh!  I get it now.  Bet you're right about Portia meaning "our planet".  Yep.  There's air in my head.

 

Thanks for clearing that up!  Home sweet home.   I like the idea of wind mills.  They are sooo graceful and quiet and lovely.  I wish they'd build more of them.  I'd actually like one in my back yard but I hear they're over 100 grand to put up (a big enough one to power an entire household, that is).

If I win the lottery........that's my new plan!!  I hardly ever buy a ticket though.  I think I better start.

  Sela

[Hopalong]

I was driving in the mountains of W. Va. last spring and came on top of a mountaintop and whoosh...there was a whole line of those HUGGE spinning wind turbines, quiet things, heading miles down the ridge....

I also saw them as beautiful. Like huge silent birds.
(Of course naked mountain is nicer, but I think knowing what they replace---dead coal miners? Damn! I'm thinking whenever I turn on a light, there's another hour some poor person spends crawling through the earth for me)...

Runs my computer, tube, all the things I take for granted.

 
Hops

We gotta get there. And one day they'll have the technology to set them in the sea.

[Sela]

You are most welcome Jac.

I would repeat those words a thousand times if it would help.  It's not your fault.  It was never your fault.  It was their behaviour.  They deceived, lied, manipulated, twisted, abandoned, violated, etc, etc, etc.  A thousand times over I would say this (but people would maybe get bored after awhile eh?? ).  I want it to stick Jac!  I want you to feel it!!  Believe it!!  Know it!!  Because it's true and no matter how many times they try to fix it to look or sound otherwise......what happened......happened tooooooooooooo you.....not because of you......not by your doing!!  It was their actions.

I'm going to share with you something that I've decided lately.  I've always had a real hard time accepting compliments.  Honestly.  People say nice things to and about me sometimes and I thank them and then....brush those words off sort of.  As if.......I don't believe them.  Well, actually.....a lot of the time....I don't take the words to heart or really interalize them or believe them.  I don't feeeel good inside or let the good effect of their good words sink deep.  Why?  Why do I do that??  I've been thinking quite a lot about this.

Yet......someone can unsult me......say something mean......hurtful.....rude.......and what do I do?  I take their words right in!  Soak them up like syrup!  The words hurt!  I let them hurt.  I am sooooooo good at absorbing the crap!!  A master!!  Why?  Why is that??

I've been thinking and I've decided.  For some reason......I must not think I'm worthy of praise??  I must not feel I deserve it.  I must have some .......unconscious switch that deflects the compliments but accepts the crap!!  Jeepers!!  That's ridiculous, isn't it??

Because consiously....I really think I'm ok.  I believe I'm not perfect but I'm ok.  I have some good in me.  A lot really (and some bad too).  And I consciously think I believe I'm worthy.

But it's that unconscious junk.......the stuff I don't know about.....the buried stuff.....that.......frigs me up.
Big time!!

So......I've decided.  I want to fight that unconscious feces and I'm determined to do it too!  (Stubborn you know?).  Yep.  So now.......I'm consciously fighting the junk my unconscious brain keeps trying to impose on my awareness.

And I swear........the good things people say to me.....I'm going to write on a piece of paper and put them in a jar.  I'm going to thank them graciously but also........work......at pulling out those slips of paper (watch...now......the jar ends up empty!!! hahahahaha!!!). .......take them out, look at them, tell myself I am worthy, it's ok to accept the words, to feel good, tell myself I did good, and if I have to paste them into a collage and study it every day.....to get my unconscious mind to take a hike from rejecting the good......I will!!

And also.......instead of sopping up every negative thing people say ........I am going to try really hard to ask:

"I wonder what's up his/her arse?"  and not immediately let their words go directly to my heart and feel pain.

What's the point?  Maybe it's similar for you (or many people).  Maybe being abused....no matter what type of abuse.....is degrading?  Maybe the shame inflicted....for what we think we tolerated......for missing cues......for allowing ourselves to be lead along......for all the thoughts about what we might have done to stop it....to prevent it......whatever......maybe all of that.......gets sucked into our unconscious brain and whispers sweet nothings to us....every time we try to believe otherwise.  And maybe the unworthiness we feel......can be combatted?  Maybe...part of the abuse is the actual damage done to that part of our brain???

And maybe......it will help you.......me........whoever........to take a stand against it.  To start sending conscious messages to our brains.....messages that refute those untruths and that unworthiness.

Because the truth is.......it wasn't our fault people abused us.   We did not do the behaviours.  And we have nothing to be ashamed of.  That shame......I believe......is toxic and is what poisons so much.

And I want nothing more than to send in the antidote.

((((((((Jac))))))))

  Sela

PS:  I'll have tea please, with milk.  And a low fat muffin.  Trying to drop some pounds eh.

[Sela]

P.P.S:

You are certainly precious:

Written on a piece of paper and placed in the jar.

Thankyou so very much Jac.   So are you!

  Sela

[Hopalong]

Sela,
You ARE the antidote. You have such a clear strong heart.
I just felt a blast of comfort and support because of your determination.

thank you.
Hops

[Portia]

Hiya Jacmac, sorry I haven’t been back here to post although I have read. I agree with Sela, the pain and trauma you’ve been through – whatever and whenever you want or feel like you might want to work through some again, well, just do it. You deserve all the space and support you want. Yes you answered all my questions and more; I feel a bit dim for asking stuff but it sure clarified what happened. You are more clear-seeing than I might have imagined at the beginning of this and maybe I under-estimated your own analysis? I might have. Sorry.

This man is and was a Narcissist.  He could not take no for an answer.  First he told me his wife was dead.  Then he confessed he lied, but said they were separated, soon to be divorced.  Portia, don't you remember?  The story is here, it was one of my first posts, http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3/index.php?topic=231.msg1942#msg1942

I had a look and while yes I remember, I was pretty new and exceptionally ill-informed at the time (don’t you remember just how infuriatingly ill-informed I was? ). I did read your thread at the time but felt it was way out of my league so I didn’t participate. I didn’t have anything to say at the time. And now I think you know better what you're talking about than I do. Keep talking!


Hi Mud
Quote
Marriage is primarily about legal stuff, not love or respect.
I understand if you have a different view of marriage than me but, you seem to be stating what marriage is about for everyone not just yourself.

Only my opinion Mud, as it is for me. Isn’t that obvious? Maybe not. It’s only what I think and that’s a result of my life. No way would I say it was a true fact for everyone. That would be outrageous!

I didn't marry my wife because of 'legal stuff'. I married her precisely because I love and respect her, and that is primarily and nearly exclusively what our marriage is about.

I’m very glad to hear that. I’m a bit envious too. Is that okay? Can I be envious just a little? Maybe it’s not envy, maybe it’s sadness. Yeah. But anyway, just to say, yes, okay, no worries Mud. I’m sad you took my words that way and it wasn’t my intention that you would. (((Mud)))

Sela and Hop

Yeah, the planet!

[mudpuppy]

Hi Portia,

Marriage is primarily about legal stuff, not love or respect. Apart from all the social conventions, social cohesion through the ‘family’ and so on. Love and respect happen between people, not because of some socially and legally sanctioned event.

To be perfectly honest, it isn't really apparent to me from that quote that you were speaking only for yourself. It sounds kind of like a blanket statement. If it is not then I stand corrected.

And since we're back on the subject for a just a minute, I'd like to modify what I said about marriage. As a believer, my marriage is first and foremost a covenant made before God, that the vows I took regarding my marriage were way beyond not only a legal contract, but they are beyond just loving and respecting my wife. The every day life within our marriage involves love and respect but the actual marriage ceremony and vows were made to God and my wife, that even if things are lousy between us I am still committed to her for life. Fortunately I married a saint so things are seldom if ever lousy. But short of her having several torrid affairs or waiting for me in the closet with a steak knife, my marriage is a commitment for life to her through good times and bad. That's why I believe real love is not a feeling or emotion, but a decision, a commitment.

mud

[portia as guest]

Hiya Mud a quickie. Okay it does sound like a blanket statement now that I read it.

Sorry. It's not well-thought out and it stinks. Won't be the last time I bet

Do you want I should clarify? Or shall we leave it as my opinion about my thoughts at that time?

Don't mind either way but would rather you tell me what you want. Big analysis of what i really think (groan) or just a promise from me that I'll think it over and reconsider?

You're too cool Thanks Mud P shops

[mudpuppy]

P,

Let's just leave it as your opinion.

I'm sure we both have better things to do than masticate this issue any further.

mud

[mudpuppy]

Hi jacmac,

Well maybe we're dealing with semantics maybe not.
I think infatuation is a feeling or emotion and I think romantic affecton is a feeling as is friendship or brotherly love. Maybe its best to break it down into the Greek definitions. I'm speaking of the 'agape' love of voluntary self sacrifice because you value someone so highly you put their well being before your own. Thats the love I mean that makes marriage work and that to me is a commitment not a feeling.
Hey Portia  I'm going to use a bible verse. 
"Greater love hath no man than this, that he should lay down his life for a brother (or spouse)." Laying down your life isn't so much a feeling as an act, a decision to place another's life as more important to us than our own. I think a (nonN) parent's love is the same thing.
Maybe its based on feelings I don't know. But lots of people have affectonate feelings and as soon as they see greener pastures or the going gets a little tough they're out the door like greased lightning. But I don't think that emotion deserves the name of love.

mud

[Sela]

Hi all:

Hmmmmmm.  Thinking out loud.  I want to say my opinion on:

Marriage.  Yep.  I'm for it.  That's amazing....considering.

Love.  What is it?  A bunch of stuff I think.

Does everyone believe the same about love and marriage??  (Love and marrrrrrrrriage....love and marrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrriage..............................go together like a horse and carrrrrrrrrrrrrrriage..... .  Remember Married with children??)  Naw......we all have our ideas on wed-lock I bet  (wed-lock?  hahaha!  who thought that one up?     Not these days it isn't!).

Bible quotes:  For each to interpret, if they want to.  Ah......go ahead and quote.   Why not?

Politics?  Part of life.  Might as well vote.....then if you're lucky like me....whoever you vote for.....doesn't win....so then you can complain..............a lot!! .  Go ahead and discuss it.....but be careful.  It's like trying to interpret bible quotes....only worse!!

semantics?

Ya.  It's all how we interpret.....take it further......post-semantically........how we perceive........react.

Self-sacrifice?

Not just for married people.  There's no monopoly on it eh?

Ok.  I'm done.  For now.  Until later.  Like Red Green would say (not to anyone specific)......"keep your stick on the ice!"
This isn't one of those abusive communities (trying to get back to the title of this thread eh.....how am I doing?).

  Sela

[Sela]

By the way......

Thankyou Hoppy for what you wrote.   Too kind.  If I write it on a piece of paper and watch it flutter to the bottom of my jar....it will take a lot of re-reads......to get me to agree to that antidote part.  But it sure was nice of you to say that and I appreciate it very much. 

That was very generous.  Thankyou.  I think your heart must be giant.  That's what it seems like to me anyhow.  I'm glad you're here.

  Sela

[Hopalong]

Sela, thank you. 

I like this very much, Jac.

I think that love is a feeling and emotion. Being commited to that feeling and emotion is the decision.  We can decide to honor that feeling, even if it changes or fades over the years, we can decide to be committed to that original feeling and the promise that we've made because of it.

Same time, I had that emotion, yet I was divorced, twice. Great anguish over both decisions and in hindsight I don't know how I could have done otherwise. My spirit was just about extinguished. Yet...my child suffered (she was desperate for my second marriage to end, and in the first, her own dad had begun to be emotinally cruel to her). But there are still pieces of doubt and guilt that I don't know if I'll ever be rid of.

Yet...deep at heart, I yearn for a simple loving companionship, with total devotion, like that I saw in so many of my elderly relatives. They were bound together by shared religion that I came to drift away from...but also by a sweet devotion, acceptance, and much tolerance of each other.

That is a nostalgia and yearning in me like the smell of fresh bread baking, and I'm saddened by the possibility (I started to type "likelihood" and decided I don't want to say that) that I may never find this kind of love. Which I think does boil down to agape, a deeply loving friendship...

Sighh,
Hops