I'm not sure I want to dance with you anymore

[Wildflower]

Be 'accurate' about what you feel, search to share what you feel, if you can, without blame if you can, rather than be 'strong' and 'in charge'. You are the child; you are the daughter. Let's get these things the right was round for once!!!

It turns out that my mother was in trouble, was contemplating suicide, and was most definitely crying out for help when she wrote to me on Friday.  I think she’s finally stable now, which is why I finally have time to write about this.

I hit a crisis point yesterday in trying to deal with all of the problems in Mom’s life, and I want to say that the advice I’ve received here went a long way to helping me through this past 24 hours.

I took your advice, Rosencrantz, and asked my mom to let me know if and how she needed help, the whole time trying to think of her as a separate person who is completely responsible for her own life and actions.  It felt right, and I felt more comfortably distant in that act, and I’m hoping it’s the start of a healthier path towards maintaining a relationship with my mother.

She responded to my offer yesterday morning.  I received an email consisting of a numbered list of extremely lucid and detailed items for me to do for her – most of which involved making phone calls.  At the end of this email, she said that if I could do just one thing on this list, she’d be able to make it through the next few days.  Otherwise, she’d have to admit herself to the hospital and she wouldn’t be able to earn any money and the house would be gone by the time she got out.  Then she forwarded me another email letting me know that I shouldn’t worry about her if I called and there was no answer because she would be out mowing the lawn, which takes several hours.

It took a long, long time for me to calm down after that, but fortunately one of the things she’d asked me to do was to call an old high school friend who was also a therapist.  This was the first gesture she’d made towards getting any kind of therapy, so that was the first “task” I completed.  This friend was more than happy to give my mom a call and help out – and I’m so relieved to know that someone with training – even if it’s a friend – is helping her out now.

When it came to the rest of the items in the list, I was really torn, partly because I felt so manipulated and used.  After a bit of soul searching, I decided the following:

1. I would honor my promise to help her out as best I could
2. I would stop protecting her from the truth, and tell her how her emails had made me feel
3. I need to learn to be as supportive, compassionate, and healthy as I can be in my interactions with her.  

Regarding the last option, I was originally thinking this because she had such a terrible childhood and expects people to treat her terribly, and she needs to be treated well if there’s any hope of her getting better.  I still believe this, but I’ve also realized today that I need to do this for me.  This is at least one way I’m going to be able to love her, while distancing myself.

I was surprised by her response to my honest feelings.  She wrote a long letter apologizing for making me feel that way, that she hadn’t meant it to come across that way, and that she would try to do better.  Keeping my resolve #3 in my heart and mind, I replied immediately with the thought of encouraging her and being open and honest with her.  The email I got back, though was very strange and surreal.  She was almost jolly.  She said things like, she was fine now and it was all because of me.  And she was so encouraged that I’d “jumped in to save her”.  On Monday morning she didn’t have the strength to go to the store, but now, thanks to me, she could go to the store and go to work tomorrow and Friday.

I am soooooooooooooooooooooooooo confused now.  My relative has seen all of the emails that have passed between me and my mother, and he’s furious.  He says that she’s acting just like my Grandmother, and he’s so shocked.  I tell myself that she has certainly picked up some bad habits from my Grandmom, and some pretty bad ways of thinking, but I guess I’ve always thought they were just random wounds, and that she could pull herself out of this if she tried.  I’m really starting to question that now.

Sorry for the long posting, but it’s been a pretty big few days for me.

[rosencrantz]

Hi Wildflower

I'm wondering why you feel confused?  You seem to have done pretty well and achieved what you set out to do.

But if I look at the title of your thread and look at my own experience, then I take a guess that you feel 'she's acting as tho she doesn't need me any more'.

I guess that's when WE realise that we need to be needed and that we're part of all this kerfuffle in our lives, too!!!!

Applause to your mum for how she's responded to you.

From what I'm hearing so far, it doesn't sound as tho she's punishing you and pushing you away or manipulating you.  She's taking the responsibilty just as you asked.  She's responding in her email just as you wanted.

This means a new role for you.

How will you handle that?

Will you want her to go back to a dependent role?

Or will you find your own independence.

I'd take a guess that looking at issues of co-dependence are around the corner for you.

Ouch big time.

Lots of us have been there in one way or another.

Pia Mellody is a good author to look out for.  The best book I found was I'm Dying to Take Care of You which was brilliant although aimed specifically at nurses.  It is out of print now but you may find a second hand copy on Amazon.  These are people who write from having been there themselves.

There seems to be a big connection to feelings of shame, too and that's really difficult to handle.  

Maybe at this particular time you could do with some support from a counsellor you can share all this with.  In some ways, allowing yourself to take that role of 'supported' would be like taking the role of the child that you perhaps felt you were never allowed.  A challenging issue in itself!

But you are responsible for what you do and what you decide.  Only you can know 'what's going on' between you and various members of the family, even if not fully consciourly.  Your relative will have their own investment in the status quo - so involving a third person can just upset the apple cart.  I couldn't quite see what's to get angry about. Isn't she doing what you wanted????? (Or is that the problem?)

If she knows she can rely on you to do just one thing to move her forward if and when she reaches crisis point again, that's got to be good for both of you?????  But if that's the boundary that you've set between you, then you have to be disciplined, too, and not 'interfere' in how she's decided to handle this - or change the goalposts cos it no longer suits you.  Just say 'Brilliant, Mum - Well done - and Thanks!'

There are some good books on boundaries, too.

The process of 'change' itself causes a great deal of inner commotion.  Do I really want the changes when I don't know the outcome? Perhaps I'm safer in the old routine after all???

There might be some painful stuff in what I've written but but all I can do is share my own experience and this is part of the process I've been through.
R

[rosencrantz]

I've just re-read your post - just another thought.  People (ie your mum) can't/don't/won't change overnight.

And even in one interaction you might start off ok but then sink into old ways.

Sometimes you'll see posters on this board try to achieve something when communicating with someone else, start off brilliantly but somehow an old pattern will resurface and make everything worse again.  

So maybe every interaction you start with your mother from now on will start well but then degenerate.  

Otherwise, she’d have to admit herself to the hospital and she wouldn’t be able to earn any money and the house would be gone by the time she got out. Then she forwarded me another email letting me know that I shouldn’t worry about her if I called and there was no answer because she would be out mowing the lawn, which takes several hours.

That bit sounds manipulative.  YOU know that she didn't have to write that to get what she wanted (but perhaps she didn't know - if it's the only way she's ever been able to get anything for herself).  But the way she started off was clear and assertive and 'healthy in the circumstances'.

To be honest, I skipped that bit as an irrelevance when I read it.  But I can see if you're still in the middle of it that it would get to you.  But if you can treat it as an irrelevance then you'll achieve what you set out to do.  Seems to me that in some way she's trying to meet you half way even if she sortof doesn't want to.  Just don't take any notice and she'll stop doing it in time.  Maybe you can even make it into a shared joke in time.

I finish those conversations with a feeling of 'did you HAVE to say that!!? You really didn't NEED to say that, did you' - but of course, they do.  And I know I do it myself on occasion when my feelings have been hurt - a little 'smack' in the tail end of something that somehow sneaks in when you're not looking!!  

When I was looking for the text of the Four Agreements, I came across this website http://www.bpdrecovery.com/ and for some reason I just thought of it again - maybe there might be something there that's useful for you or your mother.

Keep strong
R

[Anonymous]

Wildflower, it certainly sounds like it has been a trying time for you. How are you feeling?

Your mum sounds so sincere yet so confused to me. I don't get the feeling at all from how you relate it that's she's just interested in using you up, but I do geet the feeling that she's not well.

It's good that you were able to access a professional with our mum's recommendation. How fantastic is that! And a sounding board for you too.

I hope that you can get the help you need too. I doesn't sound to me like your mum doesn't love you, it sounds to me like your mum loves and appreciates you very much, and appreciates all you are trying to do for her. That is real beauty in midst of ugliness and stress and uncertainty.

And if or when she's better, I think she'd say she'd want or even insist on you taking care of yourself first and foremost. I know if ever I got this way, I would want my children to draw the line if my needs ever meant them violating their own. I think maybe your mum would want that too. That's the picture you paint for me anyway.

I hope that if ever I become like your mum, sick and confused, I have a child as loving and supportive as you are . But I (and I think your mum too) would never want them to put my wellness before theirs.

Look after yourself first Wildflower, and besides everything else it affords, it provides a rock for your mother to lean on.

Guest

[Wildflower]

Hi Rosencrantz and Guest,

It took a moment for your responses to sink in (and for the initial sting to wear off - I'm co-dependent??  - eeeeeeek), but at least I know you're not holding my hand and telling me what I want to hear.  Thank you so much for that.

Until last Friday, I'd been keeping a 'safe distance' from my mom and letting my relative try to help her without my being involved.  And until about a year ago when things started getting bad again, I had been watching her grow up in a lot of ways, and it was a great relief to know that she was okay and that I could live my life without worrying about her.  What I'm trying to say is that while I don't think I'm dependent on her needing me, I have always needed her to get well, because I know that her love for me and our relationship to each other will always be limited until she does.

I think the key for me going forward is in the title of this posting, though I don't think I fully realized it as I was writing it last night.  What I was thinking when I wrote it was, I don't want to be sick with her anymore, alluding to one of the Guests comments that my mother and my grandmother had been in a long destructive dance long before I'd ever come onto the scene.  But when I wrote it, I was pouting like a little child saying "I won't play with you anymore   ".  I've got to start listening to that pouting child!  The adult in me doesn't want to play games anymore, either.  Over the past few days, I've started to come to terms with the fact that it's killing me to step inside my mother's world and try to respond to her reality in a language she understands.

And that's why, armed with the advice from the Four Agreements and from so many helpful suggestions from people here on this board, I tried something new.  When I responded to my mom's request for help, I spoke in a language she DIDN'T understand.  I was a person who kept my promises, who defended my boundaries and pointed out that she had tried to manipulate me when I had clearly expressed my willingness to help her out, who explained to her how her comments about going out to mow the lawn made me feel like she was dumping her work on me to go out and play, who insisted that I was not her mother and never would be, who was able to accept her apology and forgive her and move on, all while being firm but kind.  In short, for the first time I was consciously being a healthy person with her - and not being who she expected me to be: her mother.

And the result was so positive.  Yes, I do think she was backsliding a bit in her last email in an attempt to try to convince herself and me that everything is okay now.  But at least she's trying to convince herself of GOOD things   , instead of convincing herself that she's a failure and that life isn't worth living.  I was confused by my relative's response, though, and in my exhausted state, somehow that translated into me backsliding, too, and stepping back into this crazy world to make sense of it.

But I think I've finally gotten a taste of what it would be like to be a rock with her - and a real rock, not a fake one easily crushed under heavy burdens.  And I will look into those co-dependency books to try to find more ways of separating myself from her world when I'm interacting with her.

Thank you so much!

Wildflower

[Anonymous]

wildflower,

I think it's great that you got through to your mother. However, my feeling is that your mom will revert back to her old behaviors because it's impossible for someone to improve that dramatically and stay that way. It's wonderful to get this therapist involved and anyone else who can help with the burden of this disturbed woman. I don't understand why your relative thinks she's acting like your grandmother, maybe you can elucidate that one.

bunny

[Wildflower]

I think you're right, bunny.  I think she will return to her old ways, and I'll be asked again, probably in the very near future, to come to her aid again.  And that's why it's imperative for me to find healthier ways of dealing with this.  I almost had a panic attack this morning (I've only had one before, but I'm pretty sure that's what was happening), and my chest has been tight for three days straight.

Regarding my relative's reaction, my mom's been demonstrating a kind of alarming reluctance to face reality while she reaches out to everyone around her for help.  Her messages are extremely confusing because she'll break your heart while asking for help and then get mad if you cross certain lines that are hard to identify.  The sad truth is, my grandmother provided my mother with a 'safety net', which entailed bailing her out financially whenever mom couldn't make ends meet - which was often.   This safety net came with a heavy price, though, which was my grandmother's continuing power over her.

When my mom finally cut ties with my grandmother, apparently her best friend (they dated for a while when I was 13 but later became friends) became her safety net, though I didn't realize it at the time.  He gave her thousands of dollars in financial support over the years until he finally had enough about a year ago because he felt so taken advantage of.

So we've all been struggling to try to figure out how to help her without enabling her to continue running from reality.  Where do you draw the line?  Do you pay for the utilities?  Food?  Medicine?  (Food and medicine are the current consensus, by the way).

So in this context, I think my relative was deeply shocked by my mother's request for help - which came across as a list of demands (do this for me or I'll be miserable).  I think he's been reeling for a couple of days seeing my mom do exactly what my Grandmother used to do - ironically, as my mother points out after I told her how her email felt:

Grandmom used to do the same thing to me, and it really pissed me off.  She would have a fit, get suicidal, disappear, and then show up with a new hairdo and wardrobe and look like a million dollars.  La-di-da.  I felt like a fool.  I felt taken advantage of.  I can see how you might feel the very same way, and I apologize.  I'll try not to do it again.

It's very confusing at times, because I don't know what she really understands and what she's saying because she knows it on some level, but doesn't quite 'get it'.  But we all have that to some extent, I guess.  Part of trying ideas on and figuring stuff out.

Wildflower

P.S. - I'm sorry these postings are so long.  I keep thinking I'll be able to explain it in a paragraph or two, but I can't.

[Wildflower]

P.P.S. - I am currently in therapy, and I'm just trying to hold out until my next session - so don't worry that this is my only resource.  It is helpful, though, to hear different perspectives from people who've been through similar issues instead of just working one-on-one with my therapist.

[Wildflower]

Hi.  Me again.

You know, it took writing my thoughts down, sharing them with others, and then re-reading them to realize that, um, I'm really, really not doing well.  Duh.  So I've set up a phone appointment with my therapist, and the rest of today is restricted to nothing but - well - rest.

Thanks for being there.

Wildflower

[rosencrantz]

Hi Wildflower - For what it's worth, I think you're doing fine!  Confusion is OK!  It just means you've got things to work out.

BTW I didn't say you ARE codependent   I suggested that you were already headed in the direction of considering such issues  
R

[Anonymous]

Hi Wilflower,

Go girl, and make that therapist earn their money. No glibe, easy for you responses accepted, thankyou Mr/Mrs Therapist. We want results here, or you're fired!

Guest.

[Anonymous]

wildflower,

Don't worry about writing long posts. This is a complicated story.

Now I see how your mother is replicating what her mother did. I guess she also sees the resemblance, but it might not stop her from pulling this stuff anyway. Old habits die hard.

I think the main thing is to decide which items you can help her with. She is accustomed to being bailed out but you've started giving her a reality check on that.

bunny

[Anonymous]

Hi everyone,

You guys are so great and understanding.  I wish I could hug all of you!  

Turns out I needed to crash, big time, today.  This is the first full day I've had since Friday where I've felt my mom is relatively safe, and I was feeling overwhelmingly guilty about the phone conversation I'd had with her on Saturday.  It killed me to yell at my mother the way I did and as much as I did, but my therapist has helped me understand that I was terrified, and even though I was yelling, what I yelling was the right thing for someone who's contemplating suicide.

She also reinforced everything that you guys have been telling me which is that the hard thing for me now is going to be to find a way to be compassionate while setting up boundaries and letting go.  I think the last two days have been a good first step in that direction, but it's definitely going to be hard.

Time to rest for a while....

Wildflower

[Wildflower]

Hi Rosencrantz,

I just wanted to say that I've always been one to face a challenge, so when I saw the word "codependence", I immediately zeroed in on it and took it in as a question to ask myself.  It stung, but I chose to sting myself, is I guess how you could put it.  But no, I see that you didn't say I was, so I'm sorry I worded it that way.

Wildflower

And that was me above  

[Wildflower]

Hi, Jacmac.

Thanks for chiming in.

I'd have been so furious if I had been in your shoes first when your mother flippantly called your father a pervert, as if that explains things, only to follow that by completely changing history by denying any knowledge of it.    That's exactly the kind of inconsistency that makes me completely batty.  I'm glad you've been able to distance yourself from that, though, and I hope I have as much success as you have in finding out where the limits are between me and my mom.

Wildflower