Author Topic: Uncovering shame  (Read 11373 times)

teartracks

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Re: Uncovering shame
« Reply #30 on: April 28, 2007, 01:17:14 PM »



Hi bliz,

You were probably brought up that way. To hold all the shame for the family.  Very common in the N world.  There has to be a black sheep, because otherwise they would have to look at their own dispicable deed and hold the shame.

Holding all the shame (except for me it was ridicule) for the family.  Very common in the N world...
All these years, I would never allow myself to believe that I  was  scapegoated.  Lately though, I've taken a second look at the possibility.  What I'm thinking and examining at this point is my belief that my two siblings and I  were triangulated within a triangle.  In other words the three of us were given a point position as if we were one unit.  We were manipulated or elevated to different positions within our own little triangle by the big triangulator depending on what was needed to keep her position of power secure.  Playing us against each other and keeping us at odds guaranteed that we would not form an alliance between us or any sense of cohesiveness, for that surely would have made the triangle shift.  Parental alienation from my dad was firmly in place.  In reality he was a good and decent, loving, tender, man who was unfortunately dazzled out of his mind by a beautiful, aqua eyed farm girl who could have been the poster child for all things milk maid!  He had an inkling before he died, but not the skills to step in and hold an intervention to stop it.  By the time he found a little insight we kids were out of the house and making our own way.  It ended up that he detached from the manipulator to a large degree and only shared his insights with my sister.  They formed an unhealthy alliance that excluded me and my brother. And the beat goes on!  And the beat goes on!  Or maybe I should say, And the beef goes on!  And the beef goes on!

sow the wind, and reap the whirlwind.  Oh boy, and how!

tt

Gaining Strength (guest)

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Re: Uncovering shame
« Reply #31 on: April 28, 2007, 06:36:54 PM »
I think I'll go back and put the word ridicule in all the places where you use shame.  Do you think that has merit?   Oh I think it has great merit!  What a wonderful idea and thanks so much for your kind words.  I also experienced ridicule.  I have a list of words that all fit under my experience of shame and ridicule is definitely one of them.  I felt shamed when I was ridiculed.  

These past two days have been very, very good.  Each and every time I felt shame rising up I named it and traced it back to its origins and then knew that I would soon live life without it and voila - it disappeared.  I am so very hopeful about the paralysis finally and permanently lifting.  I have been hoping for this and working towards this for a long time.

Stormchild

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Re: Uncovering shame
« Reply #32 on: April 28, 2007, 08:05:15 PM »
GS, there's a great book about this, and a pretty good site, too.

Work Abuse: How to Recognize it and Survive it, by Judith Wyatt and Chauncey Hare [a husband and wife team like Gary and Ruth Namie].

Here's a pretty decent web page about the book:

http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/workabus.htm

They talk about shame spirals. Using that term exactly. The basis for pretty much all workplace abuse is shame - and workplace abuse of course has its origins in family of origin abusiveness -

anyway, it's a good book. I bought it, I've read it so much my copy is falling apart -- and I actually spent a couple of months working with Chauncey Hare as a phone coach to help me clearly see and label my experiences when I was going through a really rough spell, a couple of years before I found this site and my current therapist.

That was job-related coaching, not quite the same thing as therapy, but it helped me tremendously. I don't know if they do that any more, but just to be believed - and have someone else describe the patterns I was seeing - was amazing.

And it was tax deductible, too :-) ;-) .

Here's their web site: http://home.netcom.com/~workfam1/

hope this gives you additional strengthening!
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mudpuppy

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Re: Uncovering shame
« Reply #33 on: April 28, 2007, 08:16:52 PM »
Hi CB,

Quote
There's being a psychopath and there's garden-variety selfishness.  Is NPD somewhere in between?

A therapist friend of mine said something I thought pretty sharp. She said the only difference between a psychopath and someone with NPD is the psychopath doesn't even care about himself, while the NPDer only cares about himself. Otherwise they're two aliens in a pod. :P That last line was mine not hers.

mud

Margo

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Re: Uncovering shame
« Reply #34 on: April 28, 2007, 08:50:04 PM »
I am starting this thread because I could do with thoughts/insights re the topic.

I am beginning to see that underneath all the feelings I experiece I have a huge sense of shame.  I do not understand this but I feel it.  Like when I peel back the layers, in therapy, what I am left with now is my shame.  I want to name it here because I want it to see the light of day.  I feel very emotional right now writing this.

My shame feels young and dirty and I feel like I have spent my life hiding it from others and myself.  I want the wind to blow through it, shake it up and purge it. 

over the past decade I have dealt with many issues and challenged myself to wake up and be real.  I have made progress with many issues but see them as layers of protection keeping me from looking at this very very young shame.  I do not know what else to say other than I would appreciate feedback.


axa

I remember hearing the phrase..... "shame heaped on top of guilt heaped on top of shame...." years ago.  It seemed a bit comic, in the context I heard it.... but it was also poignant and very interesting to me. 

I can't recall any reason I should feel so much guilt, but I identify more with that feeling than with shame.  Maybe they're the same, I just interpret it differently?   

My therapist keeps asking me if I'm not very angry at myself.  NO.  I'm STILL not very angry at myself, lol.  I've been lied to and mislead and obviously manipulated.  COULD I have figured everything out before I got in so deep?  Why.... certainly, that was possible.  I didn't though and I've grown and learned about things I never ever ever wanted to learn about and I'm still growing and will continue to do so.  That's life. No sense beating myself up..... I know I'll incorporate the information and lessons and do my best as I move on.  As always.

On resolving early conflicts..... they're always very painful.  Most people can't do it, so I'm told by a very good friend in the business.  He says we spend most of our time going from one distraction to another in order to avoid pain.  Figuring out our demons is VERY painful, so it's usually not successful.  I think most people here are on the right track to facing their pain and doing the work.  Remaining on track, even when things are so painful we almost HAVE to turn away..... is key.  It must be remembered that..... there's releif and succor on the other side of the pain, if we can just get through the worst of it.  It must also be remembered that I'm only giving my humble opinion.  I'm not really sure about any of this but I certainly remain dedicated to the search.   Margo

axa

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Re: Uncovering shame
« Reply #35 on: April 29, 2007, 04:34:36 AM »
Margo,

I think your friend is right.  I know that I have gone from one distraction to another to keep away from the pain and it has not worked.  While on the one hand I have been in therapy and working on healing I have kept the other hand dipped in the distractions.  This feels like the first time I have been able to attend to where I really am with little distraction.  It is hard to stay on track and I am aware of some horrible gnawing pain since I named my shame here.  To know my shame and hold it without distraction is my work right now. 

axa

Gaining Strength

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Re: Uncovering shame
« Reply #36 on: April 29, 2007, 09:00:43 AM »
Stormchild - thanks for that reference.  I went to those sights and found some very interesting things and references to other workds on shame that are very helpful to me. 

I am consumed with this topic and finding this to be so significant in my life.  Stirring up the shame really is painful but at the same time the years and years of living under the yoke of shame are finally cracking. - Gaining Strength

Overcomer

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Re: Uncovering shame
« Reply #37 on: April 29, 2007, 09:51:30 AM »
I have this idea that if I break away from my mom that all my problems will go away-maybe that is not right-maybe they will lessen.  But I guess this internal parent will always be there to put me in my place!   I had something interesting happen to me-I wrote my mom an email telling her that sometimes I could use her help-I mention things and she does not pick up on them so I have to beg.  I commented on a laundry thing at her house and she showed up with one but you should have seen her face!
Kelly

"The Best Way Out is Through........and try laughing at yourself"

Overcomer

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Re: Uncovering shame
« Reply #38 on: April 29, 2007, 09:56:26 AM »
It was this pained look like this was really uncomfortable for her.  Almost like she was trying real hard but it did not fit into her M O .  She had this aura about her like she had stepped out of her world and into mine and it was very uncomfortable!
Kelly

"The Best Way Out is Through........and try laughing at yourself"

Hopalong

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Re: Uncovering shame
« Reply #39 on: April 29, 2007, 04:19:53 PM »
GS,
When you sit with, or feel, your pain and shame...to excavate it. What do you do? I am trying to learn more about what you mean. Is it sitting alone, in silence, following the thoughts to their logical extreme (like, "My father says I'm ___ so I am actually the worst most complete ___ in the entire state/world/universe," etc.)? Is it like that? Or are you talking more about the physical pain of emotion, where it's triggered by hurtful/belittling thoughts but then just becomes heart pain, body-center pain, and all-over kind of struck-by-a-truck-can't-move-or-breathe agony kind of pain?

(I've been in both spaces but I'm wondering if I'm missing an intentional process about working through pain, or if I'm not understanding.)

I remember one time in college saying to a roommate once, in complete seriousness and with feeling: "Don't you ever feel embarrassed just to exist?" I didn't know what I was saying then. Thanks to your recent posts, I think I know more than I did before about what it was.

Thank you, GS.
love
Hops
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Gaining Strength

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Re: Uncovering shame
« Reply #40 on: April 29, 2007, 10:42:24 PM »
There is no simple answer to your question - in fact, I don't completely understand your question but I will answer it by giving an example of the process I've been gong through.

As I was siting in church today, on more than one occassion I got a feeling, a physiological feeling, of shame.  Like suddenly being dressed inappropriately or singled out or somehow humiliated.  I first have to acknowledge that I am (once again) experiencing shame.  Then I try to figure out what type of shame I'm feeling.  Is it rejection, inadequacy, condemnation, criticism, etc?  Well at one point it was rejection and inadequacy.  Where did this come from?  This is always difficult - hard to remember, hard to bear the pain or remembering and hard to isolate to one event or one age.  And then I am able to say, "That was WRONG for that person to do that.  I did not deserve it.  It was a reflection of their own pain and had nothing to do with me.  I took it on and can now let it go, must now let it go.  Then the wave of shame is released but I may reexperience it moments later.  I just repeat this over and over as many times as I feel shamed. 

This helps me.  It gives me courage.  I no longer have to repress the wretched feeling.  I no longer have to completely shut down.  Though dealling with shaming things is still not easy.  I have only begun to deal with the random attacks when I am just sitting there.  Taking on issues that are steeped in shame is still ahead of me.  I expect to face a few of them this week.  I am not looking forward towards it but am thankful to have begun to develop a tool to help.

I can now deal with external things that engender shame but I haven't developed the strength to deal with this stockpile of shame that has been paralyzing.

Hopalong

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Re: Uncovering shame
« Reply #41 on: April 29, 2007, 11:40:54 PM »
Wow. GS, I get it. Or I think I really get it.
Thank you. I hope that wasn't too grueling to post.

I recognize the physical feeling of the emotion--of shame. But I didn't realize how often and how intensely it has coursed through you. You helped me see it. I could have been sitting beside you.

I am awed by your guts and persistence GS. And I get it, more than before, how you are literally accepting the wave as it comes but you are battling it with conscious thought. Like a counter-narrative in your head. You are contradicting it. Not letting a body-memory be more important than your mind.

Magnificent. I am inspired and more certain than ever that your life is turning.

Thank you for sharing all that, GS. What incredibly hard work you are doing.
You remind me that every human carries so many things we cannot see...

Piece by piece, you are setting down the unfair portions of the load you've been hauling.

love
Hops
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Gaining Strength

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Re: Uncovering shame
« Reply #42 on: May 01, 2007, 07:58:15 AM »
Each day as I delve deeper and deeper into the shame I am amazed at how powerful a control it has had on my life.

It is about my being rather than doing.  As I try to emerge out from underneath its cover I am struck by how painful and difficult it is.  It feels like being exposed.

I am aware at how my father's clenched jaw raging resulted in shaming me.  How unbearably alone I was and remained.  I am experiencing the horror of the line - "the only way out is through."  It is indescribably wretched to go through the horror of my childhood yet again and so alone again.  It is almost unbearable.

I see completely how my needs bumped up against my parents sense of inadequacy and so any expression of need or desire was met by a demeaning reply that left me feeling utterly inadequate.  That is a gaping wound of indescribable pain.  I have tried to cover it up my entire life - in this world of abundance.  That in and of itself has lead to rejection - a whole other excruciating pain.

Gaining Strength

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Re: Uncovering shame
« Reply #43 on: May 01, 2007, 08:11:43 AM »
The worst thing about healing shame is that you have to relive it and come out of the numbing phase.  Here are some excerpts I found on the internet about healing shame.  I realize that part of what I am doing is coming here looking for comfort.  Is anyone else working through this hell of shame?

http://www.psychsight.com/ar-shame.html
Healing Shame – short sheet

Shame always carries with it the sense that there is nothing one can do to purge its burdensome and toxic presence.  Shame is the worst possible thing that can happen, because shame, in its profoundest meaning, conveys that one is not fit to live in one's own community.

There are few experiences that are more upsetting than attempting to communicate, and then receiving little or no response. We would rather fight than be neglected. Passion, risk, hurt are preferable to neglect--benign or malicious.
The Controlling Family
This is the family which is ruled by decree. It is the authoritarian, or the rigid, or the meddlesome family. The controlling family is one wherein any threat of deviation from the "way-it's-supposed-to-be" is rapidly squashed. The shame engendered by the parent's domineering control can cause the child to believe he has no "self" worth preserving: as it becomes impossible to live according to his own desires, and as he cannot give his parent what he wants, he has no choice but to kill himself.

The Abusive Family
This is the aggressive, the attacking family. It can be emotionally, physically, or sexually abusive. It can be implicitly or explicitly abusive. This is the family in which shame goes deepest, for the abused person feels deeply she is a damaged "self" and that her injury has made her unfit to share in this life with others. This is the family which may abuse the child when she is very small, thus establishing a sense of worthlessness in her which, in her adult life, she can give no cognitive content to. She simply feels worthless and that there is no recourse but to re-experience it whenever she experiences a failing, a dismissal, or an aggressive act.
The emotionally abusive family uses ridicule, punishment, putdowns. This is the family where the old and strong intimidate the young and weak.

The physically abusive family spanks, hits and uses emotional intimidation in threatening further spanking and hitting. It may also withhold meals or send the child to do a physically punishing tasks.

THE BURDENS OF SHAME
Shame-bound persons, believing themselves to be seriously flawed, without worth, and hardly belonging in the world inevitably have the consequences of their shame-consciousness show up very negatively in many areas of their life. For a person who has been shamed has no way out, his is the feeling of there being nothing he can do to set things right. Something vague, but decisive, has shrunk his soul.
The shame-bound person may become either an offender or a victim, or, as is most likely, one who vacillates from one mode to the other. If his experiences cause him to access his shame, he may take out his hurt and rage on others weaker than himself in his present community of family and friends. For another person whose defense is less aggressive, if she is re-shamed, she may fall into her accustomed role of victim, as she is naturally adept in this guise, having been an actual victim in her original family. Having learned to make a "virtue" of necessity, she has mastered playing the victim for what consolation rewards there are--some sympathy, some self-righteousness. For the offender there is some momentary sense of revenge and power, for the victim, a brief touch with martyrdom--and beyond these meager compensations, the despair of impotence and participation in the continuing of the cycle of shame. The shame of the parents becomes the shame of the children, and so on...
On the other hand, the shame-possessed person cannot grieve, for it was much too disappointing and painful to dare to believe that he could be genuinely important to another, or vice versa. Depression is marked by alienation and no real opportunity to bring things back together. At the center of depression is the sense of loss, and the shame-bound person carries the greatest loss of all, the loss of a valued self. The loss is made more difficult to emerge from as one recognizes that he is only partially aware of the dimension of his loss, having been deprived of the experience of and the model for respectful caring and nurturing.
The shame-bound person is controlling, rigid, and perfectionistic.
Shame comes from all "love" being conditional. Which, of course means that the love is never complete, never a comment on the person as she is, but as she pleases her parents by satisfying their expectations and demands. Not feeling the warmth of love, she needs desperately to control the world and is not able to tolerate deviation. She lives very carefully, for a slip can cause her to lose her fragile hold on things.
The shame bound person is numb and/or spaced-out. Life is so painful as-it-is that she takes the way of self hypnosis, or enters a self-induced trance-state in order to make her experience bearable. She lives anesthetized, and feeling as little pain as possible.
HEALING SHAME
Most of your shame-inducing experiences happened to you early in your life--when you were small and the world of parents and other caretakers loomed very large. Your fundamental feelings of insignificance, the "shame" that goes far back in your mind and soul, appeared long before you had any "choices" in the matter. Shame was your natural organismic response to the burdens and demands that were being visited on you by your family. Believing that making you ashamed would motivate you to behave as they wished (The demands of a dysfunctional shame-bound family are irrational and inconsistent, for the family only knows it is unhappy and does not know what would make things better. The child becomes the scapegoat for the family's incompetency in solving its problems-in-living.), your parents intended you to feel shame about yourself for your "bad" behavior. Sometimes, they even rationalized that shaming you was "for your own good." However, what actually happened was that they only succeeded in making you feel bad about being yourself, for you did not possess what they were demanding as you had neither the power nor the talent to change yourself in order to enter into their good graces.
There is nothing shameful about shame.
So the work of healing your shame is as profound as are the potentials of your soul. It reaches down into the heart of your concept of yourself and of your belief in the possibilities of life, alone, and in the company of others. Perhaps you have been mistaken, insensitive, unethical, self-critical, scared, negligent, stupid, masochistic, depressed--behaviors and states of mind you can do something about. But never have you been "bad," never not belonging; always, you have been just an ordinary struggling person and, now with an expanding awareness, joining with others to make your inner and outer life work better, striving to extract from the day its possible satisfactions and nursing a lively curiosity about what's next.

Hopalong

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Re: Uncovering shame
« Reply #44 on: May 01, 2007, 08:49:00 AM »
GS,
Got to dash to work, but I noticed you said you have to do it alone?
I think of your lovely picture and want to yank you OUT of that posed DR, and sit you down with a bunch of people who are being real and who will keep your confidences and help you build your confidence.

Is is true you HAVE to do this shame-release work alone?
Is there a skilled caring T in your life?
Is there a women's support group anywhere nearby?

love to you,
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."