Author Topic: Uncovering shame  (Read 11377 times)

axa

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Uncovering shame
« on: April 26, 2007, 07:37:14 AM »
I am starting this thread because I could do with thoughts/insights re the topic.

I am beginning to see that underneath all the feelings I experiece I have a huge sense of shame.  I do not understand this but I feel it.  Like when I peel back the layers, in therapy, what I am left with now is my shame.  I want to name it here because I want it to see the light of day.  I feel very emotional right now writing this.

My shame feels young and dirty and I feel like I have spent my life hiding it from others and myself.  I want the wind to blow through it, shake it up and purge it. 

over the past decade I have dealt with many issues and challenged myself to wake up and be real.  I have made progress with many issues but see them as layers of protection keeping me from looking at this very very young shame.  I do not know what else to say other than I would appreciate feedback.


axa

bliz

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Re: Uncovering shame
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2007, 08:02:55 AM »
Yes, I think we are our own worst emenies and shame is behind it.  I remember having a mental yard stick, all the time, as to how I was shaping up, daily, on the worthlessness scale.  Now when I start that cycle, usually over some perceived thought or deed, I stop myself and remind myself,  I am not the worst person in the world. 

You were probably brought up that way. To hold all the shame for the family.  Very common in the N world.  There has to be a black sheep, because otherwise they would have to look at their own dispicable deed and hold the shame. 

Maybe we can think of some shame releasing exercies.  I try to picture myself as an innocent child and how that innocent child did not deserve the shame that was heaped on.  I try to honor and help that child see the light of day.  It is an old theroy, "the inner child", but it seems to work.  That is when the shame was first put on us.  It helps to love all our parts, even the parts we are not happy with.  Try to love our inadequacies.  Everybody has them.  We are all humans.

Gaining Strength

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Re: Uncovering shame
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2007, 08:17:50 AM »
I logged on this morning to write about shame and saw your post Axa.  I am running late this morning and do not have time to post much but I do have much to say.  I was headed to the Baldwin post because his rage is about shame and touches mine.  Shame is the binding force in my life and I am determined to face it head on.  Thank you for this topic - from the depths of my soul. 

I love the Bradshaw book Healing the Shame that Binds but I found it most useful for identifying shame and its crippling power and quite weak on the issue of healing shame. - GS

Portia

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Re: Uncovering shame
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2007, 09:43:45 AM »
Shame! My shame feels simply defective: that I am not “good enough”, I don’t measure up to other ‘normal’ people. Here’s an example. Someone can send me an email telling me all about their recent life and I’ll feel…empty because I don’t feel normal, because I don’t communicate like that, because I’m not grabbing life by the horns and doing all this ‘stuff’, going all these places, seeing all these things, meeting all these people.

The shame that because I don’t match how I perceive their way of life ….. that somehow I’m basically wrong. And then I catch those destructive negative nasty thoughts for what they are – rubbish and balderdash. I do tell myself that different to one other person is not mad, bad or wrong. Different to one person means zero.

But that underlying feeling of being wrong at core: it crops up from time to time.

And the thing that really annoys me about the subjects of shame, lack of self-worth etc – hey!! Aren’t those traits that we associate with narcissistics? Those trains of thoughts can get up such a head of steam that they can go anywhere some days. Some days I find the best way for me to deal with them is to get very angry with the thoughts. Sounds bonkers probably, but if it works, I don’t mind.

All this self-rating, comparing self to others…..de-struc-tive I find.

I don’t think I can love my inadequacies but I’m hoping to accept them and know that they're not that bad, no, not really, even that tendency I have to........<censored>

Gaining Strength

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Re: Uncovering shame
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2007, 09:49:51 AM »
Would you be interested in exploring ways of healing shame?  I have found a number of excellent descriptions of how shame attaches and how it destroys.  These descriptions have been so wonderfully affirming to me. But I am ready, desparately ready for the next step - to move beyond the shame into a fulfilling life.  I would so love it if anyone here would be interested in working on this with me.

Here is a descriptive paragraph that I found today.  It nails the problem quite effectively.

Shame is the inner experience of being "not wanted." It is feeling worthless, rejected, cast-out. Guilt is believing that one has done something bad; shame is believing that one is bad. Shame is believing that one is not loved because one is not lovable. Shame always carries with it the sense that there is nothing one can do to purge its burdensome and toxic presence. Shame cannot be remedied, it must be somehow endured, absorbed, gilded, minimized or denied. Shame is so painful, so debilitating that persons develop a thousand coping strategies, conscious and unconscious, numbing and destructive, to avoid its tortures. Shame is the worst possible thing that can happen, because shame, in its profoundest meaning, conveys that one is not fit to live in one's own community.

http://www.psychsight.com/ar-shame.html

I have found that the two most debilitating reactions to shame for me are shutting down and raging.  I have moved past the rage (with some residual flares) and am determined to move out of the paralysis into real life.  

Here is a description from this same page that fits me to a Tee:
[The Abusive Family] is the family which may abuse the child when she is very small, thus establishing a sense of worthlessness in her which, in her adult life, she can give no cognitive content to. She simply feels worthless and that there is no recourse but to re-experience it whenever she experiences a failing, a dismissal, or an aggressive act.

and this:
The shame-bound person is controlling, rigid, and perfectionistic.
She has had to compensate for having not felt a sense of love.


Izzy, I wondered if you can relate to this:
The shame bound person is numb and/or spaced-out. Life is so painful as-it-is that she takes the way of self hypnosis, or enters a self-induced trance-state in order to make her experience bearable. She lives anesthetized, and feeling as little pain as possible
This goes to the very issue I began working on with my T yesterday.
(The demands of a dysfunctional shame-bound family are irrational and inconsistent, for the family only knows it is unhappy and does not know what would make things better. The child becomes the scapegoat for the family's incompetency in solving its problems-in-living.), your parents intended you to feel shame about yourself for your "bad" behavior. Sometimes, they even rationalized that shaming you was "for your own good." However, what actually happened was that they only succeeded in making you feel bad about being yourself, for you did not possess what they were demanding as you had neither the power nor the talent to change yourself in order to enter into their good graces.

In the past 9 months, I have identified a number of issues for me that fall under the umbrella of shame, some of them are rejection, unworthiness, inadequacy and a variation on inadequacy - not having the resources for what is being demanded.  This last one is perhaps the most demeaning of my entire life.  I have tried to accomplish that which was impossible given my resources and felt worthless because of it.  In my life the resouce was always specifically or directly tied to money.  That was the controll that has been and continues to be used over me. 

HEALING
While I was driving my son to school this morning I was thinking about the technique that I have been practising this past year.  It is a 4 step technique that I learned from The Mind and the Brain: Neuroplasticity and the Power of Mental Force by Jeffrey M. Schwartz.  Essentially it requires identifying the thought and labeling it as a false brain pattern and then replacing it with a more functional thought.

I have been able to do this quite effectively with jealousy and resentment.  As I dropped my child off someone I've known from childhood who was behind me pulled out before me and cut me off. There was no intent and nothing other than doing an appropriate act.  This person was driving a beautiful mercedes.  My sense of injustice flared and I immediately recognized it as jealousy rather than an inappropriate, injust, unkind act.  I acknowledged that I was jealous and immediately moved to be thankful for them that their material life from all appearances was going well and that I too would like to have material success as they have.  In this process I was able to take a wretched emotion that was self-deprecating and turn it into something that felt positive.  I want to learn to do this with shame and it's various forms that have so wounded and destroyed me in my life to this point.

One step towards healing:
There is a great community of the shamed waiting to dare to trust others enough to be open and vulnerable. Sharing your shame with them will be a way of forming a strong and rejuvenating ties with others. Your sense of shame can be your channel of empathy and pathos to the hearts of others.... There is no more powerful bond than that of shared shame transformed into a bond of understanding and mutual support for one another's healing.

In Conclusion:
So the work of healing your shame is as profound as are the potentials of your soul. It reaches down into the heart of your concept of yourself and of your belief in the possibilities of life, alone, and in the company of others. Perhaps you have been mistaken, insensitive, unethical, self-critical, scared, negligent, stupid, masochistic, depressed--behaviors and states of mind you can do something about. But never have you been "bad," never not belonging; always, you have been just an ordinary struggling person and, now with an expanding awareness, joining with others to make your inner and outer life work better, striving to extract from the day its possible satisfactions and nursing a lively curiosity about what's next.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2007, 10:51:17 AM by Gaining Strength »

Gaining Strength

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Re: Uncovering shame
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2007, 11:04:31 AM »
And the thing that really annoys me about the subjects of shame, lack of self-worth etc – hey!! Aren’t those traits that we associate with narcissistics?

Yes.  I do think (it is very true in my personal experience) that at least part of the initial wounding of Ns is profound shame and in my case - with my father he had to pass it on because it was too overwhelming.   I opened up to take it fully. 

I have a sense that I am at the right place in my healing to take on this core issue fully.  I am deeply thankful that it has emerged today and profoundly hopeful that others here will have an interest in exploring this with some depth. - Gaining Strength

I know that for some time to come I am going to immerse myself in this issue, exclusively.  I am putting all of my eggs in this basket - they have been here all along anyway.

axa

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Re: Uncovering shame
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2007, 11:12:29 AM »
Gs

Been reading the same stuff as you today......... found it very interesting.

For me there is a fundamental thought, which the adult me rejects, but I do hold it in me and that is that I am unlovable.  All the loving in the world will not change that until I I know for sure that I am lovable.  I have always chosen Ns who of course do not love me and play out my self fulfilling prophecy.

Portia, accepting that it is there is where I am at right now.  I feel so sad then I feel this.  I wonder too where the healthy folks are!!!!  I never felt up to much either and always worked in jobs which did not challenge me and then became bored which fed my "I'm no good" feeling

I did go back to University as an adult and achieved a degree which I then discounted as a "piece of cake........like anyone could do it.  I discounted the energy, time, work, driving it took and did not attend my convering ceremony.  I was ashamed to go there.  I felt as if I would be standing in front of all these people accepting my degree when it really was worthless, just as I was.

In my work I often support people to make changes in their lives and I have started taking some of my own advice, which has been an interesting exercise.

GS

Shutting down, isolating myself and raging.........this has been my way.  In some ways I feel like I am isolating myself again but I think I am just scared of people at the moment and only inteact with the few I feel safe with.  Most people I have had in my life bullied me and I have so backed off from them.  I think I was so hooked into the fantasy that when I met the "right" people everything would be wonderful.  I forgot that life is a proces, an ongoing journey, where I encounter safe and unsafe people.   I know now that a significant part of my healing is to acknowledge my shame and hurt.  To name my hurt to those who hurt me, whatever their reaction, to stand up for me.  I have not managed this yet but I know this is the way to move on.  I have to know that I am worth standing up for.  That my feelings are as important as anyone elses.  To know when I am the injured party I need to be my own friend, to hear my own voice.

axa

cats paw

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Re: Uncovering shame
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2007, 11:22:57 AM »
Hey, GS-

  Great article.  And yes, I think that we're all already on board in one way or another in the work of healing shame in ourselves and others, but I just wanted to say- count me in!

  Does anyone ever feel a somewhat inexplicable combination of joy and shame when praised?  I am grateful that I can feel the joy along with the shame, and also grateful that I have seemed to have enough self awareness in 3D life to graciously accept when someone does something or says something nice so as not to burden them with my stuff, and enough wherewithall to know that it wouldn't be appropriate to do that in certain contexts, anyway.

  I remember a small victory I had years ago when a woman told me some of the nice things her kids said about me after I met them.
This woman and I were becoming close, so when I felt that peculiar combination and then the fear that accompanies it, I realized I was missing the good part of what gift was being given to me.
  So I asked her to please repeat what she said because it took me back and I wanted to really take in what she said! And I didn't even judge myself as being greedy, N, angling for more, etc.  I was able to just be genuine and not self- recriminate over it.

  It is my hope to get back on that path, and I am so glad for all of you fellow travellers!

cats paw  

p.s.  Axa, Portia, and Besee- just saw your posts when I hit post, and I so get what you said.  I need to logoff now because I need to take a stab at some of the monsters I've let develop because of my procrastination.

isittoolate

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Re: Uncovering shame
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2007, 03:36:22 PM »
Yes GS,
Quote
Izzy, I wondered if you can relate to this:
The shame bound person is numb and/or spaced-out. Life is so painful as-it-is that she takes the way of self hypnosis, or enters a self-induced trance-state in order to make her experience bearable. She lives anesthetized, and feeling as little pain as possible


and this section

Feeling so bad about herself, she does not wish another to know her, expecting for sure that he will see what a shameful creature she is. So she puts up a false front, she pretends and postures and does all the things she believes others will be impressed by, see her as normal (izzy) but she can never do that which is the essence of intimacy, reveal herself to another in open risk taking.

I think Shame will be difficult to overcome--it will take the rest of my life--and joining a 12 step program?-----has anyone heard of one for Shame?

Love
Izzy

Gaining Strength

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Re: Uncovering shame
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2007, 05:59:49 PM »
Besee - Have you tried it, and if so, did it work for you?  I've never stuck with it long enough to see if it had a lasting effect.  I have a fear of just repressing stuff which is what I did with cognitive behavioral therapy and meditation.  I didn't really change my thoughts and feelings, I stuffed what I really felt, reprogrammed myself to think the way I thought was healthy,  but really only created a fake false self above my hurt self.

I tried it briefly and something like it called “anchoring” that I read about in another book but it didn’t have the strength that I needed.  It felt like a firecracker where dynamite was needed.  But also for me saying “Shame is only a feeling” doesn’t help either because I have found that feelings are very significant.  I certainly understand how repressing was a real problem for you.  I have found that changing my thoughts is different from repression in this way: in repressing I would say to myself, “Don’t feel shame, don’t feel shame, don’t feel shame”  in changing my thoughts I say something like, “I am feeling shame it comes from feeling rejected.  It really hurts.  I choose to change my reaction and finish my task rather than shut down. Each time I do this I will be stronger than the shame.”

Axa - I think I was so hooked into the fantasy that when I met the "right" people everything would be wonderful. 
Boy did I pay a price for this one.
I know now that a significant part of my healing is to acknowledge my shame and hurt.  To name my hurt to those who hurt me, whatever their reaction, to stand up for me.  I have not managed this yet but I know this is the way to move on.  I have to know that I am worth standing up for.  That my feelings are as important as anyone elses.  To know when I am the injured party I need to be my own friend, to hear my own voice.
I also think it is important to acknowledge my shame and hurt but I am going to leave those who hurt me alone.  But in the future I believe that I will stand up for myself.  My favorite sentence in your post is, “That my feelings are as important as anyone else’s.”

Cat’s Paw - Does anyone ever feel a somewhat inexplicable combination of joy and shame when praised?
Absolutely!  It has taken me years to be able to accept compliments.  They used to touch the shame of feeling deeply flawed and feeling like an imposter if I was praised and fearing the moment the person would realize that I didn’t really deserve the praise.  So ironically, the praise felt like a set up and though I longed for it, it made me feel humiliated at the same time. Talk about neurosis!

Izzy - and joining a 12 step program?-----has anyone heard of one for Shame?
I sort of think they are all essentially about shame.

Gaining Strength

I just found this in the internet.  I thought of you Besee and Axa too.

Shamed people build defenses to protect themselves from feeling completely overwhelmed all the time. One defense is escape, a pattern of seeking out private, secure places where one can be alone and unseen. Withdrawal is another defense which includes actually running away as well as emotional withdrawal by developing elaborate masks--like smiling, always pleasing others, trying to appear self-confident and comfortable--that cover the real self.

from - http://www.forhealing.org/shame.html
« Last Edit: April 26, 2007, 08:11:54 PM by Gaining Strength »

James73

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Re: Uncovering shame
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2007, 07:55:14 PM »
Hey Axa n all, yes shame seems to crop up a lot when your voiceless as you may be pushed into things you didnt want to do, people may hurt you cos they believe you wont stand up for yourself and of course we have all made mistakes which can bring us shame. I would say that my experience with shame is that it is an all pervading emotion that sucks at our very soul. It is very hard to pinpoint and at times we can live in denial of it, however it is always there lurking making our lives a misery. I think shame can be defeated in a number of ways and self analysis and speaking to people either friends or strangers can release the burden of shame, sometimes this can happen in an explosion of emotion which is intense but quick and the soul is expunged of shame or it can take time while we alter our lives so shame no longer haunts our steps. Either way to start to feel strong emotions is a sign of coming to terms with shame which can then lead to recovery, to deny knowledge of the things that bring us shame ensures that we stay in bondage to it which is not fun at all.
Love you guys
James

bliz

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Re: Uncovering shame
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2007, 08:03:54 AM »
I can indentify with all of this.  It helps me to realize when I am shaming myself or acting a certain artificial way in order to get through the day.  There is plenty of shaming going on in my family of origin.  Also interesting since I have refused to accept the shame that they now have a new target.   

If thoughts of shame come in or I realize I am getting in a negative spiral, I tell myself to "STOP", these thoughts are not valid. I am okay and worthy.  It helps to know that most people feel they are unworthy on some level.  Seems better to get rid of those thoughts and try to be a real person.  People will accept the real you, if you let it out. At least that has been my experience.

CB123

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Re: Uncovering shame
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2007, 08:20:51 AM »
I had a post written, and decided I actually had more questions than I did comments!   :?

Here's the big one:  If shame is the basis of a narcissist's behavior, and shame is the basis of ours, what is the difference between a narcissist and a co-narcissist?  and related to that:  Is there anyone that doesn't battle shame? 

CB
When they are older and telling their own children about their grandmother, they will be able to say that she stood in the storm, and when the wind did not blow her way -- and it surely has not -- she adjusted her sails.  Elizabeth Edwards 2010

GS

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Re: Uncovering shame
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2007, 08:36:49 AM »
I think everyone feels shame at one time or another but the problem is described by words from an article I sighted above: Healthy shame is temporary. Excessive shame is not.

I think Ns and co or non Ns who experience "toxic shame" simply respond to the shaming in different ways but what do I know.

GS

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Re: Uncovering shame
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2007, 08:38:56 AM »
Since this post began I have really kicked up the dust in my life.  The shame has come to the surface and I feel rotten.  My goal today is to push through some of the things I haven't done because of the overwhelming sense of shame.  I am thankful for this topic.  I am astounded by the pain.