For Hopalong

[Motherless]

Hops -

I wanted to be sure that you saw this post to thank you for your compliment - your words help. You are not rambling... it's a conscious stream of thought!

My parents were the same way, and always had respect and courtesy also. I think it was the timeframe in which they were brought up. Emily Post, white gloves, all the correct etiquette. That being said, it's probably why I am the same way. It was probably the one trait I don't regret absorbing from them. It did make me a better person because of it.
My Nmother was the epitome of correctness most of her life. It wasn't until dementia and Alzheimer's made cracks show in her usual glossy surface.

I do check myself now -- never taking to heart anyone who brags, postures, too much blah, blah, and is rude. People who do that are generally insecure... that knowledge makes me feel more secure with myself. I would never say anything to them to compete or one-up. To me it isn't the polite thing to do. Now, I wouldn't bring myself down to that level as I would in the past. I smile and nod and then go about my business. In giving in to that type of behavior would be a release of my own self worth and internal power. My instilled good manners is a catalyst that helps me maintain a certain level of civility.
In the past I used to get all upset and hurt by these people and feel so less about myself. As we all know, victims of an N are always made to feel less than human. The Big Green monster used to play a big role in my behavior too.

It is amazing how many ways being treated badly by an N can affect you!!!

I am healthier now than ever but still have a long ways to go.

( ( ( Hops ) ) )

xo

[Hopalong]

Thanks (((((((((Motherless))))))))))))

I'm glad it helped.

We just have to keep on mothering ourselves (politely) 

hugs
Hops

[WRITE]

We just have to keep on mothering ourselves (politely) 

that just reminded me, last year one of my groups sang a medlay of the songs from Sister Act, it starts with Latin prayer to Mother Mary and then there's a joke section later 'mater a mater inter marata' which provoked all kinds of ribaldry around the word 'mother' which is also used as an abbreviated swear word in this part of the world....

It's a mixed bag all round, mothering!

[Hopalong]

Sure, Ami.
The way I'd describe it right now is, get a photo of yourself as a little baby.

Look at them for a long time. See her as a lovely little person. Look at her little baby-child self. Remember what children's arms are like, how their skin is so soft, and their bodies have such tender flesh, literally...it's tender. Those are her little arms. They were yours.

Now imagine picking up this baby, who's now nestling her head with her silky cap of hair right into your neck, and she's both sturdy and fragile at the same time. That solid little body is bursting with life force, but she's also so vulnerable, just because of her size. (You could cup your own elbow with one hand, and lay the other hand across your chest with your hand on your shoulder while you do this.) Now just walk around your space, humming to her, just filling her up with love. Bottomless love. Feel so warm and grateful that your heart is just about to overflow with happiness, because you have this baby to love. You might rock forward and back a little, as though you're rocking your babyself to sleep in a peaceful, calm house that has shafts of warm sunlight, an open screened door, and birds singing off the porch.

Just talk to her gently, saying "It's all right, sweetheart. I love you, and everything's all right."

That's what I mean.

love
Hops

[debkor]

Hops,

When I'm upset or something has happend that is not good if I don't pass out from exhaustion when I fall asleep immediately I do notice that I will rock a bit.  Funny how comfort things stay with you for life.

I also remembered when my son was hurt in the hospital and when my friend came to my house she came in came up behind me where I was sitting and put her arms around me from behind leaned down I leaned back and we both started to rock back and forth. Never said a word to each other just rocked.


Ami,
Try it it really does work or maybe you do this but never noticed you were doing it.  Now that I'm thinking of it.  When I was in the hospital and feeling really like I was going to Burst, throw up, freak out, get hysterical and was trying so hard to keep control I remember putting my head into my hands bending over and rocking back and forth till I felt some calmness coming over me.

Wow Thanks Hops for making me remember!

Love
Deb

[Motherless]

My N mother stole my sense of value and now I want it back.

Ami -

There is nothing wrong with "self-love" no matter how odd or self centered it sounds.

All of us that were abused mentally and physically by an N had all of our self worth taken from us. I always had a feeling of being drained out, like she pulled a plug somewhere on my body.

I could never understand why I got upset, so angry, jealous, insecure and felt so badly when other people had successes. Now I know that it was the void left in me by my Nmother. There was a big part of the puzzle missing.

In the past having a system of checks and balances wasn't an option. The reason behind that is was b/c I was totally unaware of what was going on, I was that blind.

Well, now I've stopped up the plug and, as I've said before check myself mentally when things start to get out of hand. It's almost like an mental exercise, taking yourself out of your being and taking a look back at YOU and the situation in hand. Doing this allows me to take a breath, be rational (or almost rational), and make a clear headed decision.

Try it, it really does work! 

[Hopalong]

Sometimes I need to take some of my own medicine...
(rock, rock)

My D had suggested to me two or three times that she'd enjoy going to the beach--which we used to do a lot--Outer Banks, so I got all happy and invited people to share the great old house we'd been to before and made a rental inquiry and wrote her an update...

She just called me at work to say she hadn't expected it to really happen - and now for various reasons, isn't sure she wants to go.

We've been getting along very well lately, and the boundaries feel healthy and she's done so much growing and I have too. When she talked about the beach I thought she meant it. So I'm feeling sad.

I won't let myself tailspin but it's painful. It retriggers my hurt from the huge conflict we had (well, her raging) the last time we were together on a vacation. I thought we had moved beyond it but it sounds as though she's not fully ready to. Not enough to spend time in my proximity, anyway.

She said, you know I'd want to do my own thing and have a lot of space, and I said sure, me too. And then she said, could I bring a friend and I said of course. I'd be having a great time playing Scrabble with friends and reading novels and relaxing. I wouldn't be in her face. But she clearly feels avoidant and so...

She's tempted by the idea of me paying for her to have a week of vacation (and no doubt her friend too). So she may change her mind. But she couldn't make it more clear that she's not looking forward to my company. And that hurts.

I'll wait and see what she says tonight but I think if she makes it that plain that she wants to go on vacation with me only for the money...maybe I'd be wiser to just plan a getaway on my own. Sigghh. Because I can't help but feel a bit resentful about it. I hope that's normal, but normal or not, it's true.

I guess I'm posting this because I am not sure what the healthy response is. What should I say? What advice would you mothers give me? IOW, do I say, yes, do come along even after making it clear you want as little to do with me as possible and you're treating me like I smell bad...or no, your limits are a little too constraining for me right now and I'd rather have a week with people I know would like to vacation with me? (I find I resent her taking so much money when she doesn't "pay" me with familial feeling...which is of course terrible.) And if she does go, I don't want to walk on eggs because I need to relax. (That's exactly what I'd told her last time she joined me, but I got the I-HATE-YOU screamed in my face anyway.)

Oh spit. Just send me vibes. I would like to make a kind but healthy and clear response, and I do get confused. I want to gratify her (and I think there's a strong chance she'll come, since I'm paying for stuff)...but at the same time, some voice in me wants to take her at her word (why on earth go on vacation together if she feels this unsettled about the idea)? Honestly, I want to create the possibility of a nice time, but if she went ballistic on me again and raged at me about everything that's ever made her unhappy (even rough choices of her own) -- I don't want to go either.

It makes me sad to admit that, but it's true. But where I'm cloudy is I want to make the decision that is HEALTHY. For both of us.

thanks,
Hops

[Portia]

Hops, dear Hops. I'm not a mother (of any description! ) but I sense you trying too hard. If I sense that (and if it's true), maybe others might.

Do what you want to do. Set your boundaries. Whatever you decide, you won't be a Bad Mother. You'll be an independent happy mother! (I think kids want their parents to be happy regardless of what they - the kids - do?)
((((((((((Hops))))))))))

[debkor]

Hops,

You know I have a 22 year old daughter and yes she will hop at the chance to go on vacation for free and bring a friend that I will pay for too.  I don't know hops but she would prefer to go off with her friend the same age as herself and I do understand that. I went with my H so I had someone to go off with too.  We had dinner together and not all the time and saw each other in the house but when she was gone she was gone. She even sat on the other side of the beach with her friend.  She wasn't really trying to avoid me but she wanted her space.  Her 22 year old space. When my H didn't go with me I went with a friend and yes the same thing.  We would meet and divide go our separate ways.
Maybe it would be great if you had your friend with you too as well as hers. 
It could turn out to be nice even if you do not get quality time together you still will get time.  I do understand that my daughter would rather have someone her age to do the things they do at their age together then just hang out with me.  Maybe there could be a happy medium.
I did get some attitude when I wanted her to hang with us reminded her not to be so snotty for I forget I'm OLD mom.
Which I'm not old at all but not 22 either.  So I did understand but I wanted her there anyway. It still had memories.

Love
Deb

[Hopalong]

Ami...
thank you very much. I truly appreciate your advice and your kindness.

I guess my gut is about the same thing as my emotions...? I'm not having trouble figuring THEM out. She was very courteous when she starting backing out, so the communication's okay. I feel sad.

Also I think, so why did you set me up for thinking you wanted to go, when you didn't mean it? I just forgot that one of her issues is telling people what she thinks they want to hear, just in the moment, and not following through. One time she left her stepmother and brother waiting in the driveway for a trip halfway across the country they thought she was accompanying them on...and she never came and never called. Her brother was so mad he would barely speak to her for a couple years. (He was 14, and he'd lost his Dad too, so the trip was important to him.)

Ahh well. I will create a happy vacation for myself anyway. I have to. I need it.

Between pleasing D and my mother, sometimes I feel there's not much me left.

Hops

[Hopalong]

Thanks, Deb. I do get that.
Last time, it was very relaxed and we had 5 family friends sharing the house and she did have a friend along and they had all the freedom they wanted. I enjoy my friends and have invited some of the same people. I had no intention of hovering over my D or trying to force anything sentimental on her. It wouldn't bother me at all if she spent all day on her own, or even went up to Baltimore for a couple days, or whatever.

What confuses me is she knows that. She knows how much I delight in my friends and how happy I am in almost any company. And on my own...I can loll for days reading novels and feel blissful.

She's almost 27. It's as though she's now doing the individuation and emotional separation she skipped as a teenager. If she is, I'll not get in her way. (I just forget that she requires kid gloves.)

This whole thing was just unfortunate...her old habit of not saying what she means created an expectation in me (a reasonable one), and when she waffled it just banged on the big bruise from last fall.

I DO want her to get emotionally more stable and be strong and proud and happy. I rejoice in the idea of her being an independent adult. That's who I thought I was inviting to the beach, but she gives me power I don't want. The power to make her crash and burn or explode just by "being" or saying the wrong thing.

Ow.

Hops

[WRITE]

I think if she makes it that plain that she wants to go on vacation with me only for the money...maybe I'd be wiser to just plan a getaway on my own. Sigghh. Because I can't help but feel a bit resentful about it.

money's in on everything, isn't it.

For what it's worth I see many many people whose children though grown up in other respects are somewhat dependent about finances, they assume or expect their parents to finance things long after they're grown up! And parents who comply...

she gives me power I don't want. The power to make her crash and burn or explode just by "being" or saying the wrong thing.

no, Hops. If she explodes it's her behabviour to own not 'your fault' now.

She's a grown-up, or transitioning into one.

Try and look at the whole thing as a process: a while back she wouldn't have wanted to come, now she's unsure, another time you'll be able to find somewhere comfortable for both of you to just be together....

As I said before, mothering is a 'mixed bag'....it's not all nurture and nice: there's a lot of dynamics about power and separation and expectations in there too.

I feel like you seem to sometimes, yesterday in one of my groups this 'Von Trapp' family got up and all sang together beautifully, I thought why didn't I get a family like that, I would love that. My son gets more like his father every day- except he's not his father, and I have to just accept him as he is.

Which is really difficult mostly.

Love to you. Plan a great vacation whether she comes or not. You deserve one!

[Hopalong]

Thanks very much, everyone.
She left me a message that she's not going to do the beach after.

I don't mind, I just wish she hadn't said she did. But better to know now than when we were there.

I'll talk to the folks who responded and see if they still want to go.
Maybe I'll ask them if they'd like to do something else entirely.
I'd like to go somewhere new...

Another option is to go to Louisville. That's where I was living when
I met her father, and I had loved that city. i invted her, and she never replied. Neither a yes nor a no, so I guess she's making progress. This time she made a belated decision.

In fact, I think that might be a good way to respond. Just say, I'm glad you said No, because if you feel unready to share a vacation now, I'd rather do that another time too. And maybe next year, etc.

CB, she can have all the space she wants. I'm trying to get past stuff.
She said on her message, you said you want to let the past go but the last time we were at
the beach it was not a pleasant experience (!) and so I don't want to go because the past
always comes back to bite us.

Okay. Nothing I can do but stuff my feelings about it and carry on.

She also won't do Christmas or any other traditional family thing with me. I have seen her quite often, more often than some parents see their kids, so I'm going to count my blessings and stop whining.

Thanks for hearing this everyone. It was just such an enormous, priceless help to have a safe place to vent some hurt. I'm starting to feel better now (now that I've figured out what to say).

I wish it wasn't such a minefield but maybe there is gradual progress. I'll plan something for myself anyway.

love to all,
Hops

[Sela]

Hiya Hops:

Sorry you're feeling sad.  I think anyone would.  It's almost like a tease......wanna go to the beach?.....oh I don't really wanna go!.....can I bring a friend?......nevermind.

Immaturity?  Happy go lucky?  Just plain ambiguous?  Who knows?  Maybe she's just having a manipulative moment?

What should I say?

What if you just said:  "I feel sad.  I was looking forward to enjoying eachother's company at the beach but now it seems you're not at all into that.  I think I better cancel that plan and think up something else to do on my own or with a few friends who want to spend time with me.  Maybe we can do it another time."

???

It's not easy being a parent eh?  I know it takes real courage to say stuff like this.  But why does she get to be shielded from her own behaviour?  She made the comments.  Those words hurt.  Maybe she needs to know you're not made of stone?  And they say....honesty is the best policy.  

(((((((Hops))))))

Sela

[Sela]

Well.....looks like I was a bit late with that one eh Hops?

you said you want to let the past go but the last time we were at
the beach it was not a pleasant experience (!) and so I don't want to go because the past
always comes back to bite us.

Wait a minute!  Wasn't it her suggestion to go to the beach?
Left a message?  You don't get to react/answer/comment eh?  I dunno Hops.

I say......go have a holiday and enjoy yourself!  You can let the past go Hops and she'll maybe catch up later.

I think that might be a good way to respond. Just say, I'm glad you said No, because if you feel unready to share a vacation now, I'd rather do that another time too. And maybe next year, etc.

Very good, Hops.  Kind and compassionate.  I hope you have a lovely holiday too!!

Sela