Author Topic: Shame  (Read 12285 times)

lighter

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Re: Shame
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2007, 06:23:00 AM »
I go back through years of journals and wonder who that person was

She's so different than who I am today.

I think you should journal again.... go back and read then write about what you see.... what scares or upsets you. 

(get in the shower and rage and keen like a wild animal... sink into the sadness... remeber?)

If it's still bothering you.... then it's not been processed yet and by processed I mean completely felt and mourned and let out into the light and turned over and examined.

That's when you can put it down.

That's when the part of you that grew up conditioned to feel shame..... can put it down.

That child is in there and she wants to say it...... it comes out in your life..... everywhere.....

 in all sorts of ways.

Go back and journal again.

Know that anything you put there won't hurt you.....

it's part of you and everyone has stuff.

::sigh::

So many moving parts.... not only do you have to deal with whats in front of you..... your inlaws et....

but you have to deal with what's behind and in you as well.

Very difficult to do and most people can't do it. 

Inviting pain isn't what we're engineered to do.

But that's the way to feeling better, IMO.

I think you can do it, Poppy.




Ami

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Re: Shame
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2007, 08:04:15 AM »
I had such a healing experience yesterday.It relates to shame so I wanted to share it here.
I was really down ,yesterday                                                                                                                                          .I made myself do some of the inner child workbook. It said that we all have an "Adult Child inside us. The Adult Child took on all the messages from our parents , society, books, movies etc..about how we should be.
 Our Adult Child functions in two ways--- either the codependent or the narcissist( or both,usually). There were two long checklists of behaviors. One was all the ways that we try to get people to like us  using codependent behaviors--like being nice, too giving, too caretaking, seductive, approval seeking, self effacing etc. The other way that we try to "control" people to get them to do what we want is narcissistic behaviors such as tantrums, whining, manipulating,pouting, coercing, arguing etc. We all do both types of behaviors.
  How we got this way was that we rejected our true "inner child.. Inside us is a layer of feelings ( pre verbal ). When we were treated badly by our environment we ASSUMED that we( this deep level of feelings) was BAD.We shoved out true self away.  So, we rejected it and tried to 'please' or 'control". THAT is how we got those  'Adult Child" behaviors.
 Anyway, I could see how my whole life(now) is just WAITING for the outside to meet my needs. I am one giant "waiting". I look  back and all my "successes" dissappointed me. All my relationships  left me empty. WHY am I still waiting for .........PRINCE CHARMING. Prince Charming can be anything from the outside--anything.It can be a new dress, plastic surgery, a new car, an affair, a marriage, a house, new hobby, --anything that I think will fill up the inside.
  The "lie" of it is that the substance or person DOES fill the inside for a short time. I have heard that this is what happens with drugs like heroin. The first high is so incredible that you chase that first high for the rest of the time ,but never get it. Supposedly,heroin is like the best type of "mother's love".
   After the checklists, they had a list of characteristics.. You checked which  you had . They were traits like feel worthless, feel less than ,etc. I saw how I 'took" on what my M told me.
  Then they had an exercise where you picture yourself as a young child. What messages did you have inside about yourself?
 I could just feel back when I was  8. or 9. I went to day camp in the summer. I was "developed " at this age. It was horrible. I was so ashamed of my body. My M was horrified.More than this , though, I felt the weight of my M's happiness on me. I was supposed to make it all right for my M. .I think that she thought I was supposed to fill the role of making her"feel good" and "look good". I was a huge failure.I felt like a dirty,messy, fat," can't do anything right", bothersome, annoying, bratty failure.I had a heaviness that I carried with me all day. I hated day camp. My M always wanted to get rid of me. I was gone from 7 A.M ( when the bus picked me up) to 6 P.M. ( when the bus brought me home).
  I felt like a huge bag of "trouble' .I felt like I was simply a huge, annoying, messy bother who could never make my mother proud. I always was swimming in failure. My M was angry and I could  never seem to  perform to make have " the good kid" she wanted . I pictured some thin, nicely dressed little girl who was quiet and polite. That would be the "good kid" who would make my M happy.
  If I asked for a hug,she would say,"YOUOOOOO need too much love.". If I asked for anything she would say,"YOUOOO are too dependent."
 I really just felt like a fat,useless, bad blob.I needed too much love and I was too dependent.
  I was so ashamed of my body that I would not take off my jacket at camp,even if they played softball and I was sweating like a pig.The counselor would say,"Don't you want to take that jacket off?"
  I remember the feelings as deep worthlessness-..They felt like heavy, heavy bags of garbage that I lugged with me all day. I was just "bad" I could never be "right" no matter how hard I tried. My M knew that I was 'bad" and I was.What really made me bad was needing too much love and being too dependent.
  Last night,I connected with the deep decision that I made that I was 'bad". I see that it was a NPD
  mother's way of viewing a child. I really(on her mind) was supposed to make her happy.I still am(in her mind). I was born to make her happy( feel good about herself) and to make her look good. I tried it all. If trying could make it come true,it WOULD have come true. I gave my whole life to her. It was not enough. Nothing was ever enough b/c I did it. If I did it,it was flawed,just like she was.
That was how I became so ashamed(part of it anyway)                          Love   Ami


No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

Ami

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Re: Shame
« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2007, 08:39:58 AM »
I just wanted to add  that all people( according to my book0 pushed down the deep feeling level(inner child). However,I think that if you had an N parent, you pushed it down deeper and probably "worse". So, the climb out is deeper and harder. However, it would seem that you COULD get out.It is just a deeper excavating of "lies" and distortions.
  It is simply allowing yourself to face the lies and replace them with the truth.The truth is that we have an inherent value as God's creatures.
   The "medicine" is simple. However,it is a painstaking step by step process. Somehow. you feel hopeless about ever getting better,but you can't listen to that. The only"problem", really,is just believing "lies". What do you think?                                    Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

Certain Hope

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Re: Shame
« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2007, 08:44:41 AM »
I know that I was programmed to shame myself from birth, but I feel frustrated with the feeling for being trapped.  Sometimes I wonder if it is like devil snare from Harry Potter.  Maybe if you struggle it kills you more, but if you hold still or shine light, it will let go of you.  Hmmmmm........

Poppy

Dear Poppy,

What you said here about the devil snare really registers with me!
I am feeling quite strongly that the past can become such a trap - like a quicksand - so that all of the kicking and flailing only serves to get me more desperately entrenched.

It seems likely to me that all of the past review which has been intellectually processed does need to be released via that keeling and howling, Lighter-style.
Think of the Wailing Wall in Israel...
I did some of that in a dream the other night... woke myself up... and instead of feeling embarrassed and drained, it left me unburdened and relieved... because, I believe, by the grace of God, I chose to allow it to have that effect. It was awful and terrible... but I saw it gone! It was like the circle of agony was shortstopped and became a line flowing out, instead. No poetry in that expression, but to me it was lovely.

And something else, Pops. Each and every determination we make to take a stand for what is true and right, there will be attacks. In my little corner of the world, a heavy siege began when I quit smoking... and it's not over yet. Strange things....  now the tip of one of my fingers  is doubly-swollen and hot, with no visible wound (I think a bit of rose thorn is lodged in there)... so back to the doc again.
But this time, no fear, no dread,... not even annoyance, really. Although it doesn't "feel" good, the irony hasn't escaped me... and even makes me smile. So you know... the devil can toss out as many tacks as he wants onto the road of my life, but I am not going to allow him to stop me in my tracks again. Not ever. Every single obstacle is nothing but an opportunity to look to the Lord Jesus for strength and encouragement and direction. There is no power on earth or in the heavenlies which can prevent us from reaching our destination when we keep our eyes on Him.  Now that's a foundation on which we can stand firm!

With love to you Sis,
Carolyn

Ami

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Re: Shame
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2007, 09:08:17 AM »
Dear Carolyn,
  So you got over your fear of the doctor AND the dentist? Where do I send the award plaque?Let's have a ceremonial dinner---Will you come?                                          Ami                                                               
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

Ami

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Re: Shame
« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2007, 09:51:35 AM »
I just have to say that today after facing what "shame " my M put on me b/c I could not "make her happy", I have such a depression weighing on me. I am not going to run away from it----only to exercise(Lighter-- you didn't see that).
  I just feel the weight of what she did( and is still doing to me). She put the weight of all her happiness on me. She is STILL angry that I am not sacrificing my whole being at her alter so she can feel good.
   It is really overwhelming to face.
   She is in a primal rage that I am not going along with her program.. EVEN when I went along with the program ,she hated me. However,I guess that she was happy to have the power to destroy someone.
This is so freakin" BLEH that it is not funny.It is so hard to face these things.
 However,if I don't face them, they will destroy me with "addictions"--Right? Can anyone understand what I am saying?                                                 Love    Ami-
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

Ami

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Re: Shame
« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2007, 09:56:45 AM »
The other thing that I see is Maria is angry (codependent) that I am not taking better care of her. I have given her thousands of dollars( my H does not know). She married a dead beat guy.It was very,very dumb on her part. She married him after knowing him for 3 weeks. She was trying to get away from another  drug addicted guy. However,at least the drug addicted guy worked.
  She is angry that I am not giving her more time , attention and probably money. I can only do so much. Now,I know what it feels like on the other side when  person wants me to "fix" them,in a sense.
  This makes me realize that no one can fix me ,either.
   LIFE  is just BLEH--                              Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

Poppy Seed

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Re: Shame
« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2007, 10:17:16 AM »
AMi,

I SOOO see what you are saying.  I can't go back into my past.....but I think I can hear that inner child voice come when I set a boundary or when I do something good for myself.  The shame just comes and comes!! It is crazy.  Cool part is, I think I can see the pattern.  I think that those are the moments when the parenting of self and the replacing is so crucial.  Is that what you are doing too?  Sounds like it.  I know where and why I have shame.  Now it is time to say....no one more day.....not one more minute.  I am so at the bottom.......that I am determined to go up.  The old way of coping just isn't satisfying to me anymore.  All of my repeated trying to make it work ( I am referring to the list of codep/narc behaviors you listed above.  The pleasing, manipulating, etc), has to stop.  I am feeling peaceful that I don't have to try in that way anymore.  It is feeling good to see that I am getting traction when I stop and confront the shameful thought and use my energies to believe the truer thing.  Hard!  Holy smokies!  You are not kidding.  But I am determined.  Thanks for your input. XXOO.  We ARE making it!! , you know?

lighter

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Re: Shame
« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2007, 10:38:10 AM »
Ami.... I don't understand why I never hear what you're doing to feel better.

ARE you doing anything to feel better?

Sinking into the sadness should be a temporary state.... then you begin building things in your life that lift you up, (not just your butt at the gym; )

Building.... sinking.... building.... they should be partners.... ebbing and flowing but working hand in hand.

You and Maria seem to be locked into some kind of co dependant agony where you both have unspoken expectations of each other and no understanding.

Of course, that's from where I'm sitting and must be taken with a grain of salt.  For all I know.... you two have it figured out and what do I know?

I guess it's time to start stating what your expectations are of each other, if you're going to remain each others real life confidants and life coaches.

Does she attend that support group with you?  

I'm guessing neither of you are going.


Why not and can you not find something that takes you outside your head for a while.....

 focuses you on activities that lift you up and carry into your normal daily activities as catalyst?

Time to broaden your horizons, IMO.  

Reading self help books is great, necessary.... wise and we can use that new information.

Now you need to apply it IRL.

You can't fix Maria.

She can't fix you.

Can you two DO something that builds your spirits?

I'm thinking along the lines of school for her and a job helping people for you.

Helping people seems to be something your driven to do on the board...... would it interest you to build on that IRL?

 What would happen if you did?

  


Ami

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Re: Shame
« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2007, 10:48:24 AM »
Dear Lighter,
  I have to trust my own timing . Right now, I am feeling such an aching sadness. I have faced that I was used b/c of my M's selfishness.I know that I am on the right track b/c I feel more 'real".
  In healing,I have to follow my own gut as far as inner and outer endeavors.
  Now, I am doing both,My inner is needed b/c I cannot heal codependent behaviors by ANY outside factor--not school, friends, working,volunteering etc.
  Inner has to be healed by inner( as I see it ).
  We can differ in many things and still be friends, Lighter.. If your way is working for you ,Ligher,I am very happy for your success. I have done most things in the outside  world that anyone could do and it did not work for me.. So, I will follow my own inner leading. I have to follow my gut-- where it leads. It is leading me in to the inner child modality ,right now. I will go inner until the inner is healed.
 Then,I won't need to anymore. Then,I will be healed and then have much to offer others( as I see it).
  Anyway, Today,I am just facing this truth. I was simply used as a means to make someone else happy and look good(my M).
  I feel deeply, deeply sad to be facing it.However,not facing it meant that I was taking the "shame" ( her shame) on myself.
  I just hurt right now. It is a lot to face. I think of people who had to face sexual abuse--how they were just treated as dirty rags. I am facing deep pain,but I am not alone.
  I will just keep trying to face the truth and accept the promise of freedom at the end            Love  Ami

« Last Edit: October 08, 2007, 10:57:26 AM by Ami »
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

Ami

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Re: Shame
« Reply #25 on: October 08, 2007, 11:08:21 AM »
Dear Lighter,
  I guess what I am trying to say,in a nice way, is that if you are trying to tell me some version of 'Go out and do something and you will feel better", I would prefer that you do not respond to my posts on these subjects.
It is not at all helpful to me  at all.. Thank you .                               Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

Poppy Seed

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Re: Shame
« Reply #26 on: October 08, 2007, 11:10:33 AM »
The other thing that I see is Maria is angry (codependent) that I am not taking better care of her. I have given her thousands of dollars( my H does not know). She married a dead beat guy.It was very,very dumb on her part. She married him after knowing him for 3 weeks. She was trying to get away from another  drug addicted guy. However,at least the drug addicted guy worked.
  She is angry that I am not giving her more time , attention and probably money. I can only do so much. Now,I know what it feels like on the other side when  person wants me to "fix" them,in a sense.
  This makes me realize that no one can fix me ,either.
   LIFE  is just BLEH--                              Ami



Wow!  This is really telling!  And it makes me feel like the push and pull I feel from my IL's and my mother.  Most of the flack I have gotton since joining my H's family is because I don't take care of them the RIGHT WAY and haven't taken care of their son better.  To them this codep is Christian love.   I grew up refusing to take care of my mother.  Pushing her to take care of herself.  She hated me for it.  And she missed out on having a relationship with me because of it.  It was extremely selfish position for her to take and WAY TOO HEAVY a burdan for a child like me to carry.  My IL's want me to take care of the autistic children by making mine available without considering our needs.  They want us happy and jumping to their every wish and need (without being told -- they mind read.  I was bad cause I refused to mind read them.)

I know my situation is different than yours, but I learned that all my caretaking of my H just helped him stay in his addiction.  He lost 27 years of his life and I helped him loose 9 years of it.  Because I insisited on fixing -- mending and pretending, as I call it now.  The second I said NO MORE was the moment he started to learn to stand on his own and solve his own probs.  I help him now, but only when it is supportive to his own responsible process.   Life is just BLEH when we do this stuff.  You are absolutely right.  I know you love Maria and it seems she loves you. Sounds like you are doing the right thing by saying no more money, etc.  Those things only enable her to make the same unproductive choices she always makes.  I think you can love her best by NOT giving the the fixing stuff.  But pointing her towards her own strengths and resources.   I understand that this may be scary because perhaps she may withdraw her friendship or give you flack for not doing what you SHOULD do.  I don't know how she will react.  I am guessing the first reactions won't be so good.  But the enabling can only serve to slowly undermine the love you do have for each other.



Love, Poppy


Poppy Seed

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Re: Shame
« Reply #27 on: October 08, 2007, 11:18:11 AM »
Alright Ladies.  Back to your corners. 

Let's get back to the delightful subject of SHAME!  Ok???????

(love love, goo goo, smile smile, calm soothing music....)

Ami

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Re: Shame
« Reply #28 on: October 08, 2007, 11:19:05 AM »
Dear Poppy,
  The main thing for me  see the truth of  my OWN codependent behaviors.
 Last night,I saw,for the first time HOW I carried all this shame . I was used my whole life. I carried  the label of "bad" b/c I could not make it better for my M. Even today, she is mad at me for not "making HER happy".
  I just faced it last night. It is HUGE.
  I am really in shock about it, for the moment.
  .Right now in the 'meantime,it is a mean time"                                    Love    Ami

 
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

Ami

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Re: Shame
« Reply #29 on: October 08, 2007, 11:28:53 AM »
Dear Poppy,There are no "corners" My viewpoint is that we all get out and do lots of things .If doing things(WHATEVER  they are) would help us heal shame, we should be healed now.
  I think that we are trying to help each other her-Right? So, I am expressing  that point of view ,for myself only .It is not a fight or an altercation in any way.          Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung