Snap shot of an N mom

[Gabben]

You said "that some completely flunked."  So true, I always wonder why?

I worry about my mom -- despite all that she did to me she still is human and still gave me some foundation that was good or I would not have made it this far. If she was ever to see her life and all the harm she did it would devastate her. I imagine a lot of N's who don't know who they are would be devastated when they see the condition of their soul and the harm they did to others. I just hope they know that if they were able to say they were sorry with complete sincerity and a willingness to make amends, God would forgive them and so would people like you and I - correct?

If Randy came to you (miracle) and said he was genuinely sorry, that he "woke up" and sees now what dirt bag he was and how much he hurt you, you would forgive, correct?

Yes, I too, for the first time in my life have had vengeful thoughts. I get rid of them fast and then pray for the person that I wanted to take out

I think - wow that is a lot of rage and I have been carrying it around for all these years. No wonder I have been depressed or turned to smoking to cope. I feel like a pressure cooker that is finally letting out some steam - it feels good.

Lise

[wiltay]

Lise, IMO, all NPDs  seem to have a major blind spot about how they effect other people. That of course is exactly why they are what they are and don't see any reason to change anything for a moral reason (i.e. hurting others)  They are just not 'aware' of themselves in a normal, adult way.  I think with intervention they can be taught how to behave in ways that weren't so destructive to other people,(my father I think is an example of that)  but they would never FEEL the rightness of behaving better.  Intellectual understanding, easy, feeling--just  not there.  I forgave Randy many times for most of the ten years I (foolishly) considered him a good friend and he only got worse and worse and less forgivable until I had to say ENOUGH!  I honestly don't think he's CAPABLE of feeling the wrongness of his behavior, so he is really not able to say he's sorry with any truth.  He said he was sorry every time he did something supremely self-centered and inconsiderate and I called him on it, but he never meant it.  He was lying.  He didn't FEEL bad at all, he really didn't. He manipulated me out of my anger because it got him off the hook until next time.  Each time I thought he was sincere and each time he was lying.  Intellectually though he knew right from wrong the way most people see it, otherwise he couldn't have projected his own evil onto me.

I smoked heavily for 25 years Lise, quit 12 years ago this month.  It took about two years of being pretty discombobulated to get back to "normal."  I once thought it was the worst two years of my life until the LAST two years!    It was harder to get over an N than my smoking addiction.  But I think being involved with Ns is just another type of addiction, but a lot less easy to see than smoking. My uncle taught me how to quit--DECIDE.  I spent at least five years postponing the decision before I made it.  When I did finally decide there was no backsliding or temptation to begin again because it was no longer an option once I had decided.  I quit just once.  It was not a matter of will power because I have none.  Anyway, I think everyone quits in their own way.  If you are smoking heavily you will feel so much better!!  It's a huge gift. Your energy level doubles I think.
 
Bill

 

[Hopalong]

They are just not 'aware' of themselves in a normal, adult way.  I think with intervention they can be taught how to behave in ways that weren't so destructive to other people,(my father I think is an example of that)  but they would never FEEL the rightness of behaving better.

Bingo, Bill.

Hops

[Ami]

[ALL Ns to one degree or another, because we all WERE Ns once as very small children.  We had to be socialized out of being so extraordinarily self-centered and some of us have had more success in that than others.  Some completely flunked.  That's why we're here.


Dear Bill and Lise,
 This quote(above) IS the answer to my question about my own thinking.I have "rejected" all parts of me that are "N like". THAT is how I lost connection to my emotions.I was so shamed for any "not perfect"(or N ) emotion such as selfishness,  anger, fear and even joy.
  I guess that I was the living body that my N mother projected all of her own N emotions on. When she saw them in me, she saw "red". Then, she excoriated me for having them--bleh
  So, my goal is to see it just as Bill said,"We all have  an N part to us." One book says that LV NEED more N.
  N in appropriate doses is good----right?Don't we need to stand up with a confidence and be able "proclaim" ourselves (as part of our voice)?
  Don't we need a part of us that loves ourselves and stands firm in that love,even when outside circumstances tear us down. Isn't this "normal" N?(if you could call it that)
  My book says that you need  some N in order to be whole.
  When I was "healthy",I think that I loved myself  in a healthy way. I think that I had N traits,but it is like homeostasis in the body.You can't have too much of one thing or it throws off another and can even kill you.
 Anyway,I love your post,Bill. It has a simple wisdom of self acceptance--which I need very much right now                      Love to you, dear friend                  Ami

((((((((((((Bill, Lise)))))))))))

[Ami]

I think that I just "got " the answer to my question(in the heart). It is ,"If I am not for myself who am I?(appropriate amounts of "N". If I am only for myself what am I (not enough being able to suspend yourself and care for others)                                             Ami

[Ami]

Dear Lise,
  I hope that you don't mind if I add a/thing about an N H. It is still the topic of N's-bleh. . I am really "sick" today with what transpired last night.
  I did have a seed in my H being angry.My S did ,too. My h was stressed in ,general. So, all these things came together in a  conflagration.
  I really thought that my H could hurt s/one so I was "placating him. My FIRST thought was to placate a raging bull.My thought was that THIS was not the time to assert myself. My S was angry that I was being "weak". I tried to tell my S that physical safety must come first--not emotional considerations. My S has gotten really smart ,lately. He said that he did not want to lose his dignity and that he would not placate. I asked him(strongly) to just be quiet b/c I was more concerned with physical safely.
  Anyway, the night ended. My S and I were trying to figure out what to do next time( and there will be a next time)
  My S said that we should not placate b/c it will make us sick. My S said that his dignity( and mine) was worth s/thing. So, we made a plan about what to do next. I will have the cell phone and we will not placate. We will not inflame ,but we will not placate. Then, if( and probably when) my H hits s/one or s/thing, we call the police and get a restraining order.
  I feel very,very upset and sick to my stomach. I know that I 'provoked"(horrible word in abuse circles) him by not helping him with what he needed.My S  did not help with s/thing either. Also, my H "knows" that my S and I don't like him down deep. He really does not get it that providing is great,but it does not remove the need for general human consideration.
  The other thing that was upsetting was that my H was blaming ME for turning my S against him when it was HIM that tried to do this . It was surreal,in a sense.
  This is just a situation that is coming to a head and it is good. I want to erase this post ( and maybe will later) b/c I feel like such an idiot for being in this situation.       Ami
 

[Iphi]

(((((((Ami))))))) you are not an idiot and there is nothing shameful about you being in this situation.  I completely understand about personal failures 'provoking' abuse and 'deserving' it.  That's been my situation with my dad all my life.  He was always justified - it was always my fault (usually a nothing type of thing too) and I should be ashamed blah blah blah I am a terrible person blah blah the stink of my infamy fills the streets of the neighborhood blah blah the tremendous burden for the poor N having to live with the horror that is me blah blah I can never do enough to make it up to them, cannot even begin to make it up will be paying forever and ever.  kwim?

I think it is so good that you and your S can work together on this.  I think the compromise of physical safety, a plan of action and respecting your own dignity - sounds like good progress to me.  It sounds proactive, not reactive.  It sounds like something new, not an endless repeat of the same old cycle.  And I think those are good things.

Maybe this story will make you chuckle and maybe feel a bitfeel better.  I worked for an N once.  He was trying to steal his colleague's client again and again.  It didn't work.  So then he started to accuse her of trying to steal her own client when she moved to another company.  What a terrible woman to steal a client, a client who made up its own mind freely.  But to the N, the client was stolen (from him).   Everybody in the office laughed because he was such a damned liar and because he failed to steal the client (yay) and he failed to sabotage the lady (yay) and because she walked away with a multi-million dollar client and there was not a damned thing he could do to touch her (yay).  And then one of the parking lot attendants totaled the Ns mercedes convertible.  God, those were some good times (though perhaps not for the attendant).

Point of the story is that accusing someone else of doing the very thing he was trying to do is BS that 3rd parties see through.  Don't let it confuse you - you aren't trying to manipulate anyone. 

[wiltay]

Ami, I completely agree that LVs need to be MORE narcissistic (more self-admiring, more self-loving, more self-praising, more self-seeking, more self-concerned, more looking after self, they need more SELF).  Being selfish is totally necessary to survival and health.  My LV M believed all selfishness was 'evil.' (taught that by N parents).  I believed her, but she was so wrong.  It is  completely necessary to existence and could summarized as 'being responsible for yourself.' 

    Malignant narcissism OTOH, which is what we are always talking about, is seeing other people in your world as mere objects, put there solely for your own gratification and then using and treating them that way.  (This is from Ayn Rand, although she didn't call it malignant narcissism).  An N parent or SO of course hates any selfishness except their own.  You're not supposed to be 'separate' from their needs, to have a will and existence of your own!  That's the evil forTHEM so they try to squash your independence by telling you any selfishness on your part is evil and hurtful and when they succeed (as a parent) they have made a LV.  They ALWAYS succeed to some degree because a child is so vulnerable to being manipulated by love. 
     I think all of us are capable of being malignant Ns, of viewing other people in our world as objects to be used when the stakes are high enough,  and I think we all do it sometimes.  We are just human.  But we know it's wrong and we feel badly.  We don't BELIEVE that other people exist just to serve our needs.   NPDs seem to believe this.  Anyway, this is how I'm beginning to see it.

Bill

[Ami]

My God, Bill, that is SO BIG.I am getting it in the heart.I see my own"core" being strengthened and my own "selfishness" being O.K.( and more than O.K.-- necessary). You expressed it so beautifully.I have been "birthing" this idea ,but you brought it to fruition.
  It is SO BIG to go from LV to strong voice.It changes your insides and shifts them in another direction.It is as big as going from North to South.
  Inside me,I feel that I CAN own those" N "parts of myself that I thought were so "shameful". I am seeing them(more) as human.
  I feel like I have gotten a gift and it is so HUGE--- just spectacular. My own voice is a beautiful voice and it has all elements --even the bad. Thank you ,friend, from the bottom of my heart for all that you contribute to everyone.        Love   Ami

((((((((((((Bill))))))))))))))
   

[Gabben]

It was not a matter of will power because I have none.  Anyway, I think everyone quits in their own way.  If you are smoking heavily you will feel so much better!!  It's a huge gift. Your energy level doubles I think.
 

This is all so true about smoking - like you said "everyone quits in their own way."  We are all so different.

Well thanks for clarifying more about Randy and your Father for me. From all that I have read from your posts about Randy, I gather that you gave yourself to him as a genuine friend. You were invested. Betrayal is the worst.

I still have hurt angry feeling coming up and up, but they are getting less and less. At first it was so hard but lately I can manage through the pain without feeling so incapacitated and needing to smoke. So much garbage has moved out of me it is like getting a new pair of glasses to see with and a new heart to care with.

My desire to smoke is gettng less and less instead I want to knit, watch movies or go for walks on the beach -- It is all progress.

Lise




Lise

[Gabben]

So, my goal is to see it just as Bill said,"We all have  an N part to us." One book says that LV NEED more N.
  N in appropriate doses is good----right?Don't we need to stand up with a confidence and be able "proclaim" ourselves (as part of our voice)?
  Don't we need a part of us that loves ourselves and stands firm in that love,even when outside circumstances tear us down. Isn't this "normal" N?(if you could call it that)
  My book says that you need  some N in order to be whole.
  When I was "healthy",I think that I loved myself  in a healthy way. I think that I had N traits,but it is like homeostasis in the body.You can't have too much of one thing or it throws off another and can even kill you.
 

Wow...this is a powerful post Ami and Bill. It brought up something that has helped me to now be so hard on myself. My N saint T used to make me feel ashamed for needing affirmation, she used to look at me with silence and fear on her face when I would ask her for validation or if I was OK. She once said that I have some gifts that she could see but that she did not want to point them out because "I would let them go to my head".

I intuitively knew that I was not seeking praise to feed off an ego stroke from her. I was feeling and getting more and more in touch with how lacking in affirmative love I was.

Here is a book I just found:

It is called: Healing the Unaffirmed - Recognizing Emotional Deprivation

http://www.amazon.com/Healing-Unaffirmed-Recognizing-Emotional-Deprivation/dp/0818909188/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1195678941&sr=8-1

Ami and Bill,

I hope this is what you are talking about when you refer to LV's needing N stuff?

Lise

[Gabben]

Dear Lise,
  I hope that you don't mind if I add a/thing about an N H. It is still the topic of N's-bleh.

Of course! I'd love to share my post with you!!! ANYTIME. You have a wonderful way of keeping the topics rolling.

Love, you (((((AMI)))))

[Gabben]

  I did have a seed in my H being angry.      

Ami,

It sounds to me that you are being hard on yourself for being human, making a mistake and being married to an NH? You have been through a lot lately - so you had part, you admitted it, you faced yourself -  now you are going to grow.

Perhaps old mom tapes came back saying that you have to be perfect?

I could be all off on this stuff and I know that I am jumping in late --By now you could be way past this.

Lise

[Gabben]

My God, Bill, that is SO BIG.I am getting it in the heart.I see my own"core" being strengthened and my own "selfishness" being O.K.( and more than O.K.-- necessary). You expressed it so beautifully.I have been "birthing" this idea ,but you brought it to fruition.
  It is SO BIG to go from LV to strong voice.It changes your insides and shifts them in another direction.It is as big as going from North to South.
  Inside me,I feel that I CAN own those" N "parts of myself that I thought were so "shameful". I am seeing them(more) as human.
  I feel like I have gotten a gift and it is so HUGE--- just spectacular. My own voice is a beautiful voice and it has all elements --even the bad. Thank you ,friend, from the bottom of my heart for all that you contribute to everyone.        Love   Ami

((((((((((((Bill))))))))))))))
   

OK now I see...you got it!!!

[Gabben]

I'm quiet these days.

Ever since I wrote this post and got some support, perspective and tears, I have felt better as if something has purged out of me. I am more at peace, hopeful and enjoying the simplicity of prayer, looking forward to the holidays and just being at peace with myself.

There is still so much more healing to embrace but I can tell that God is giving me a little rest before a nother wave of memoreis and pain surfaces.

There is still anger and frustration going on with me. I get annoyed when my boss asks me to do something for my job...That is pretty N of me

I know that I am a 3 years on some levels emotionally and I have been for a very long time; the difference is I don't act on the 3 year old emotions and thought processes that go on in me. For instance, I just noticed today that when my bosses are really preoccupied working with their door are shuts and or they are in a bad mood my LV 3 year old thinks it is her fault - of course, she thinks the world revolves around her as well as in my family growing up we had to be on constant guard for when mom might just get flippy, we were always looking for signs of moms unhappiness to indicate the upcoming storms and try to be prepared.

I realized today that has I heal these painful emotions and work through stuff that one day I will might be unattached and unaffected by the emotions and moods of others - oh how freeing that would be!! I'm almost there.

I am feeling a strong pull for solitude...I think some more stuff is going to be coming up soon. I'm glad I have this board. One more blessing in my life and one more thing to be grateful for!

Happy Thanksgiving!!