Author Topic: Self-doubt  (Read 4601 times)

Michelle

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Self-doubt
« on: June 09, 2004, 11:25:14 PM »
Well, it's been 7 weeks now since I last talked with my mother.  She's changed her tune for a little while to "upbeat".  By that I mean her messages weren't totally condescending and horrible.  They had a small touch of "hopeful" niceness.  For example, one message she left said "I just wanted to call and see how you are.  And just say that I love you michelle - pause - I love you".  After I heard that message on the voicemail, the "hopeful child" in me almost called her immediately to make up.  Then I remembered very clearly what "making up" consists of in my family.  Me calling to say I was wrong, apologizing, and being "good" for awhile.  Well, I'm done with those days.  There is nothing good that comes from the neverending pattern of damage and hurt caused by my vicious mother.  When I had those feelings of wanting to call her, I sat down and typed this journal entry...

Quote
June 8, 2004

I haven’t spoken to my mother in 7 weeks today.  She called a couple of times last week (I saw it on the caller id) but didn’t leave a message.  She sent a postcard to the kids last week from Florida, so I guess she and Steve went on vacation.  She called yesterday and left a message – a nice one which is unusual.  At first I felt an immediate panic attack come on and that I should call her.  I held out though and didn’t until I could gather my thoughts and think about it.  At that point I could see that I was doing great and that I shouldn’t chance that by calling her.  Not to mention that she hasn’t pointed the finger at herself in any of her messages or emails since I have cut off communication – in other words, no regrets or acknowledgement of her part in the end of our relationship.  Today she emailed me that one of my favorite ladies in my growing up church had died.  I didn’t respond, and a few hours later I got an email that said simply “please call your mama”.  I’m not sure if it was from her or Steve.  Again, I felt very “obligated” to call her at that moment but didn’t.  In hindsight I am glad that I didn’t.  I can feel a change going on in my life since I have drawn that final serious line with her.  I will list the things that I feel are different:
1.   I am capable of making choices on my own.
2.   I am not my mother.
3.   I do not need my mother to successfully live my life.
4.   I am an adult.
5.   I am a good parent.
6.   I am not and do not have to be perfect.
7.   I do not have to feel badly for drawing boundaries with her.
8.   Her craziness is her problem not mine.
9.   Her craziness is her choice not my fault.
10.   I do not owe her an explanation for the choices I make.
My life has been happier, calmer, less stressful and clearer since I have stopped talking to her.  I am very sad for the mother that I wish she could be and I actually feel a weird sort of grief for her – the mother in my dreams.  Sadly, I do not miss my real mother at all.  The only negative feelings I feel are guilt and obligation and both of those are because she has trained my brain to feel those feelings.  It is her voice in my head telling me the way that I feel.  I now realize that it is not really the way I feel.  It is time for her to get out of my head.


Today, I got this email from her -

Quote
Hi Michelle, Did you get the message that I sent you yesterday about Ms Margaret? well I was just wondering if you got the  gift certificate that I sent the babies too?  It may not hurt you to be thinking about the way you have been acting lately toward me,I dont know "WHAT I could have possibly done to you to make you so mad at me?  All I am guilty of is caring about you and wanting to see how you all are and if that irritates you so much then you surely must have a problem! I dont think it would hurt you  too much to at least acknowledge that  you have enough respect for me that you can be  civilized and talk about whats on your mind. Im here if you want to do that. I love you Michelle and wish I could help you Love mama


Of course, this email showed me that she hasn't changed at all.  She still thinks it is totally my fault and she will never be able to admit that she could possibly do anything wrong.  Why do I hold on to this dream that she will change?  It is an awful, heartbreaking dream and it hurts worse every time I realize it.  

Does anyone have any supportive stories to share where they feel this same sense of self-doubt?  I know that I am not giving in.  The reason I know this is because if I give in again (like in the past) I feel like in a sense I will die.  I have to live.  I have to find out who I am and create a new person to live inside of me instead of my mother.  I can't let her rule me anymore - it will continue the damage in me and filter down to my family.  It has to stop.  I just have this awful, deep, depressing feeling of being so terribly alone and that scares me more than anything I have ever felt.

Michelle
Healing one day at a time.....

Anonymous

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Self-doubt
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2004, 12:21:13 AM »
Hi Michelle,

She sure knows how to lay on a guilt trip, doesn't she? If she loves you so much, why doesn't she shut up and stop the guilt-tripping messages? If she loves you so much, why is she so intrusive and shaming? Well, some mothers are just disturbed and clueless.

I think your feeling of being alone is what she feels, and you are receiving a powerful projection. Your mother has very fragile boundaries between herself and others. She may "put" her unbearable feelings into a person she wants to contain it and feel it for her. Then that person thinks they are feeling their own feeling. But they aren't! Of course I could be wrong here.

bunny

mighty mouse

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Self-doubt
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2004, 12:36:08 AM »
Michelle,

Ditto Bunny. She rocks as usual.

I too have cut off my Mom. I've felt all of the things you have listed. And they are valuable. The way I see it, I need ME more than I need HER.

And one more thing.....Inappropriate guilt. Guilt is for someone who has done something wrong. That's not you!

Stand your ground and you will feel better everyday. You are doing what you need to do for you and YOUR family. Make the family you wished you had and be the Mom you wished you had. I don't think you can do that with her around.

MM

seeker

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Self-doubt
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2004, 12:47:26 AM »
Hi Michelle,

That's pretty powerful stuff your mom is throwing out there.  Good for you for sidestepping it and letting it fly by.  When I read your post I thought of the article I read a few weeks ago about being willing to be perceived as the bad guy/persecutor as you leave the drama game.  You are not a persecutor, you are simply leaving the games behind.  But the gameplayers will accuse you to keep you in the game.  Ironically we feel victimized by the accusations of being the bad guy!  

It seems like you are recognizing this craziness for yourself from what you write in your journal.  Way to go!!

I went through some of this same garbage and felt exactly the same way.  But they can only hold a one-way dialogue for so long without someone to hold the mirror for them.  My extremely psycho SIL would use news, borrowed items, my brother, other people, etc. as "coupons" for interaction with me.  "I have something you want" was the message dangled in front of me.   :roll:

I finally torched the thought of accepting any more of her contaminated "offers".  When you realize how icky and sticky any communication is with a crazy person, you will not be tempted to return the call or email.  Again, good for you!!!   :D  :D  :D  Hugs, Seeker

yuki

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Self-doubt
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2004, 04:08:15 AM »
Wow Michelle... I like how her "nice" email is saying that you have a problem because she couldn't possibly have done anything wrong! I'm always amazed at how Ns can sneak in those manipulative little guilt trips and still manage to sound so nice overall!

It's just like a N to start pointing fingers, too.

I think, for N mothers, their relationship with their daughter makes them feel so good that they can't even imagine why anyone would want to end it. They can't understand that their daughter doesn't have the exact same feelings as they do (if they even consider their daughter's feelings at all). If something is good for the N then it must be A GOOD THING!

(I'm feeling very thankful right now that when I broke off contact with my mom, she just switched to my dad. Now her focus is entirely on him - she controls him and uses him to feed her narcissism and all of the stuff she used to do to me. She's even given him an eating disorder. A grown man! I'd feel sorry for him but... he chose to marry her in the first place, and then he stood idly by while she emotionally abused me for years)

It's also hard because I think most of us were taught to take care of others before ourselves, be nice to everyone, never hurt anybody, etc. Breaking off contact and refusing to go along with her cycle goes against things we've been taught. And I think we all have a very deep rooted desire to have a loving relationship with our mothers... even when they're not capable of it, that need is still there. Good for you for breaking off contact and refusing to dance her crazy dance. :)

flower

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Self-doubt
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2004, 05:10:05 AM »
Michelle,

   ------------------------------------------------------

Thanks so much for your insight and support.
 It aided my healing. Too much of my heart
was in this post to let it remain here for posterity on the web.
The post served its purpose and now it is time to
edit it or gently take it down.
 
To every thing there is a season, and a time
to every purpose under the heaven:  Ecclesiates 3:1

------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for posting your journal entries- they helped me.

Anonymous

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Self-doubt
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2004, 10:17:06 AM »
Bunny - As always you have great advice.  Are you a psychologist by profession?  Your insight is always right on.  Thanks especially for explaining the projection.  Still a little fuzzy on that whole thing, but I'm learning more and seeing how accurate it really is.  Thank you.


MM - That is so true about needing ourselves more than we need them.  I have to tell  myself that pretty often to not think I need her more.  Also, thanks for the clarification of the inappropriate guilt.  I overlook that detail quite often.


Seeker - I love your statement from the article about being perceived as the bad guy / persecutor.  I need to put that on my fridge:  "I am not a persecutor.  My mother says I am, but I am not.  I have no reason to feel badly.  I am just protecting myself and my family.  I am ending the insanity."  I also like your explanation of "holding the mirror for them".  That makes a lot of sense for me, especially since I have the priveledged job of "primary" mirror holder.  Not a fun or productive job by any means.


Yuki - I felt badly for your dad too...for a second until you said the part about him standing by during your emotional abuse.  No more sympathy here.  Same way in my family.  My dad wasn't as emotionally abusive as her, but he had his own things going on.  And he stood by while we all suffered.  Makes me feel nauseated just thinking about it.   Your right about being "taught" to display all those destructive attitudes.  I am untraining myself in that area and it's really hard.


Flower - Thanks for referencing your other post.  I had missed it (I haven't been able to be on here every day lately) and am so glad I got to read it.  The whole family reunion / photocopy of your mother's response sounds just like something my mother would pull.  CRAZY and totally unexplainable and non-understandable.  I agree with everyone about your daughter - keep her away at all costs and do not let your mom know she is ill.  My mother loves being the martyr when someone is sick....."oh look at me I am such a wonderful caretaker."  Bleeeeeeeggggggggghhhhhhhhhh - Gag!  That's really scary about the hidden behavior of your mom with your kids.  Gross.  I can totally see my mom doing that.  Fortunately, we live on the opposite coast as her, she's scared to death of planes and we live in a huge city so she'd never venture here on her own.    Also, only feel bad for your dad for a while.  It is his choice to stay there.  I know he is older, but it he still has a choice.  It is not your problem or fault that he sticks around.  Thanks for your support!



So here's another question for everyone - has everyone cut off their "N" completely?  Meaning no communication whatsoever?  I'm just curious at the different ways you deal with the N.  I know for me, right now at least, it has to be 100% or 0% - I have chosen the 100% non-communication.  I don't return her emails, phone calls, letters.  I just let them fade off into the sky.  That kills her I know and although I do feel guilty I have to admit to having quite a bit of satisfaction about giving her anxiety after all the years she has dished it out to me.  Kind of mean, I know.  From 0-100%, what amount do you feel that you communicate with them?  Also, how well is that working out for you personally?  Just curious.

Michelle

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Self-doubt
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2004, 10:32:33 AM »
Sorry, forgot to sign in.  That was me.
Healing one day at a time.....

seeker

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Self-doubt
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2004, 12:09:01 PM »
Dear Michelle,

Regarding your question of cutting off Ns completely: I have cut off my psychotic SIL and hence my brother as well 100%.  They wanted too much of my life invested in solving their problems, taking on their responsibilities, my money, my time, my kids, everything.  I had to say NO you can't have it, it's mine.  There was no "sharing" and it was inappropriate to think that sharing would be possible in areas that are shaped by one's own decisions and life choices.  Have you seen the new Harry Potter movie yet?  They are like the "dementers" sucking the life out of people.  

I have other Ns in my life.  One is older and now beginning to drown in self-pity designed to draw us all in.  I have minimized contact but stay in touch.  I can take small doses more frequently since I am building up an immunity.  But if I over-commit myself to the relationship I start to get weak and ill.  Sort of like kryptonite.  

Yuki, my father is doing the same thing to my mother as your mother is to your father.  I guess it depends on which direction the N weapon is pointed as to how much one can stand.  It's easy for a person to stand next to it as long as it isn't pointed at them!  It's like wrestling with a rocketlauncher. :shock:

OK, the metaphor machine is going to sign off now!  :wink: Take care everybody.  Seeker

Anonymous

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Self-doubt
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2004, 02:18:00 PM »
Hi Michelle,

I'm not a therapist or a psychologist. I studied psychology. And I read many books and journal articles.

Your mother's behavior really is outrageous. Maybe she is basically a nut and totally distorts everything. She makes herself impossible to deal with.

bunny

shixie

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Self-doubt
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2004, 02:50:52 PM »
Michelle I wish you all the luck and strength in the world.  When you mentioned the panic attack it brought back vivid memories of mine when I had to deal with my father or ex.  The panic attacks help me stay away.  I felt anyone who mad me feel that bad should not be contacted.  When I left my ex for my husband, it was him who told me I was suffering from PTSD.  In the begining it's hard, but the longer you are away the stronger you will get.  Alot of my childhood illnesses went away after I cut off contact with my N father.  I was a very nervous child with irritable bowel syndrome while growing up as well as constantly sick with asthma.  When I moved out at 18 many of my chronic complaints subsided, only to return later in the relationship with my ex N.  They made me physically sick from the stress.  Be strong, there is alot of support here.
Those who can do, those who can't bully.

Singer

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Re: Self-doubt
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2004, 03:08:52 PM »
Quote from: Michelle
Does anyone have any supportive stories to share where they feel this same sense of self-doubt?  I know that I am not giving in.  The reason I know this is because if I give in again (like in the past) I feel like in a sense I will die.  I have to live.  I have to find out who I am and create a new person to live inside of me instead of my mother.  I can't let her rule me anymore - it will continue the damage in me and filter down to my family.  It has to stop.  I just have this awful, deep, depressing feeling of being so terribly alone and that scares me more than anything I have ever felt.

Michelle


Hi Michelle,

My situation is a little different that yours in that I’ve been the one to try to maintain some level of communication with my Nmother. At first it was because I didn’t realize what was going on and had absorbed her version of myself as weak and incompetent. I felt like she had a right to remind me of my flaws at every opportunity, because I know I DO have flaws and, as she said, why would I object to being reminded of the truth? She accuses everyone who objects to her cruelty as being afraid of the truth.

I hadn’t spoken with her for several months, but had recently resumed calling her once a week to see how she’s doing. She’s 79 years old, refuses to make or keep doctor appointments, and is a very poor driver. However when I called last Saturday she declined my offer to bring her groceries and after about a half hour of one-sided “conversation” launched into yet another lengthy recollection of one of my perceived failures.  After several unsuccessful attempts to interrupt and divert her train of thought, I finally just said, “Stop!” Although she’s hard of hearing, this got her attention. She said, “What?” and I asked her why every conversation had become an attempt to make me feel bad or guilty about something. Her reply was, “Don’t you EVER call me again!” and she hung up on me.

So that’s it. I can tell you though that it has taken a very long time to accept that I don’t have to live with her verbal abuse. It’s not new and it’s not a result of age. I remember coming home for a visit about thirty years ago, after having lived away for about a year, and being silently shocked at the rude and belittling way she spoke to my father. I didn’t have the courage to call her on it then, and anyway my father was her staunchest supporter. But that’s another story; he had issues of his own that were the result of his own upbringing.

Anyway, what I wanted to say is even though the situation is different, I can really feel what you’re going through. Especially  what you say about being tempted to call your mother and make up when you heard a hint of “niceness” in her voice. I’ve been down that road countless times, and believe me it doesn’t lead anywhere except right back to where you started, but you realize that already.

One thing I would like to know though is how did you come to the realization that your mother was an N?  I had pretty much resigned myself to a life of trying to atone for my perceived “sins” against my mother, and was awash in guilt and depression when I followed a link on another message board from someone who’s father’s messages on her answering machine had literally driven her to drink. I couldn’t believe my eyes when encountered the term narcissism and read what seemed to be the story of my Life with Mother. Without the funds or insurance for therapy, this board has literally been the answer to a prayer.

Singer

Anonymous

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Self-doubt
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2004, 03:50:07 PM »
Just a quick note here.

Hi Michelle,
Gosh, you mother seems so insidious!
However your list of 10 things shows that you really seem centered / foculsed/ in control here.  You know exactly what is going on and how to stay out of it's destructive path.  It is so confusing and painful to be forced to draw such strict boundaries...  Especially with mother, who has probably always taught you that your boundaries are wrong and you are bad for setting them. You and all of the others here are extremely strong!  Keep on taking care of yourself!
peace, sjkravill

flower

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Self-doubt
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2004, 08:21:43 PM »
Dear Michelle,
    ------------------------------------------------------

Thanks so much for your insight and support.
 It aided my healing. Too much of my heart
was in this post to let it remain here for posterity on the web.
The post served its purpose and now it is time to
edit it or gently take it down.
 
To every thing there is a season, and a time
to every purpose under the heaven:  Ecclesiates 3:1

------------------------------------------------------------


    Seeker, I like those metaphores - especially, the kryptonite one. We've said about grandma that getting close to her is like hugging a cactus with a machine gun.

Michelle

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Self-doubt
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2004, 08:53:23 PM »
Seeker - Thanks for the response about cutting off the n's.  I agree with you - my mother is much like your SIL & brother in the fact that she has to have everything.  There is no middle ground.  So I have finally come to the conclusion that it has to be nothing since I can't continue giving her everything and remain healthy myself.


Bunny - It doesn't surprise me that you have studied psychology.  Your posts are very meaty and always resemble much of what my counselor (who I respect very much) says.  You also don't mind calling a rat a rat.   :wink:


Shixie - You are so right about the panic attacks.  They are a clear sign that you are embarking on territory that is off limits.  I am learning to listen to my body's signs more.  That is so interesting that your health has improved since you have removed yourself from the toxic situations.  I hope you are doing better since you have separated yourself from your ex N.  


Singer - Good for you with standing up against your mother.  I hope it has left you feeling stronger and more independent than ever.  In answer to your question, I didn't really "realize" that my mother was an N.  I started counseling last June (a year of heaven I might add) because I had finally reached my wits end with her and felt like I was going to jump off the deep end as fast as I could.  When I started going, my original goal (I had no psychology background or knowledge at this time) was to learn how to get along with her without totally disobeying God.  After a few sessions of just unloading my anger, frustration and confusion my counselor began teaching me to slowly set boundaries.  My mother had always used God as a threat against me and so my (christian) counselor also began to unravel the mixed up beliefs that my mother had ingrained in me (in hindsight a bunch of bull that was only self-serving for her).  I have learned more about myself and God (and also my mother) than I ever thought possible.....most of it eye-opening and inspiring.  My mother in law (who is a chaplain at a retirement village) made the comment to me a few months ago that she thought my mother (from my descriptions of her) displayed some N tendencies.  I mentioned this to my counselor and she said she totally agreed and that she couldn't diagnose her "officially" without having sessions with her but that was her professional best guess.  After coming to this board, I agree with them b/c I see so much of my mother in others stories.  It is so encouraging and makes me feel like I can finally be who I am, stand up proud and not take any more of this abuse ever again.  It brings tears to my eyes knowing that I don't have to suffer anymore.  Thank you so much for your supportive post.  I am glad that this board has also provided you with the support that you need and the encouragement to make a better life for yourself.  Sorry this answer to your question was so long.   :roll:


Sjkravill - Your right - insidious is a perfect word to describe my mother.  Thank you for your support and encouragement!


Flower - I love your "hugging a cactus with a machine gun" phrase.  I laughed out loud with that one.   :lol:   I have a weird story for you.  I was just rereading the part where you talked about your dad's response "she's the boss and she's never wrong" in a humorous way.  My dad used to always have this little saying that he would say to my mom when she started her little temper tantrums or when he agreed with us instead of her.  When she turned up the heat he would always go back on his support or agreement with us and side with her again.  She made life hell for him if he didn't (not excusing him).  His phrase was "Yes dear, whatever you say dear".  And it was always said with humor but looking back now it kind of makes me sad in a weird way.  Thanks for your support and sharing your story Flower.  It means alot and helps me through this hard time.



Michelle
Healing one day at a time.....