Addictions

[Ami]

Dear Alone,
  I am not in to "organized ' religion ,too much, either.
 My relationship with God(Jesus) does not depend on preachers or particular external religious 'trappings" either.
             Love   Ami

[reallyME]

Ami,

What I was trying to say, and I'm not really one who beats around any bushes normally, unless I'm trying to be ultra tactful...I'm concerned that your mother has you "snowed"

I am wondering what sort of N characteristics you believe that your mother possessed, back when you really considered her a full N.  Could you please give me some examples of why you believe she was/is a narcissist or has the personality disorder?

My greatest concern is YOU.

~Laura

[Certain Hope]

Dear Ami,

NPD would rather lie than tell the truth, any day.... that's the difference.

Self-absorbed people do not necessarily engender craziness around them, whereas NPD always emits a fog.

A mother who is selfish and primarily about the business of keeping up appearances and covering up her own inadequacies may raise spoiled-brat-children, or children who don't know how to pursue intimacy, or those who engage in addictions of their own...
but NPD is in a class by itself.

I don't know what is happening with you, Ami, but I know what I've experienced here... in that I've tended to pick up on other peoples' situations and relate them to my own, at times, in an inappropriate way. It's easy for me to spin the attitudes of my mother forward into some of the actions of my npd ex-husband and even mix them with some of the accounts I read here, of people's sufferings at the hands of npd. It all can get tangled up together to the point where I am only seeing isolated frames of the bigger picture of my life... a very lopsided view.

So I've had to take a close look into myself and my own inclinations toward hyper-sensitivity and other personality quirks that I have, and let go of the whole "monster mother" theory...
because some of the folks here really have dealt with monsters -
and I've known a real one or two of my own, having married one.

Something else... when you really know that somebody is NPD and have dealt with the terror and abject emptiness that such a one brings into a life... you don't go out and spend the day with that person and have a great time.
It just doesn't make sense, Ami, but that's just me.

Carolyn

[Ami]

Dear Laura,
  Thank you again for caring.It means so much to me.
  My M had- most (if not all) of the traits in the Vaknin book---no (very little ) empathy, projected all her traits on me, everything was about looking good to the outside, emotional maturity of a 5 yr.old, thinking was distorted(If you have one flaw ,you are not 'perfect" so you are "bad", have to do all things effortlessly or they don't count(school, apprearance,activities) amd many more that I can't think of right now.
  She did fit Vakinin's book---90%---at least.
  Even Vaknin says that aging can mellow out an N, particularly if the N has a rift with a child that the N wants to repair. I think that my M IS an N,still, but is trying to get self awareness ,so would fall in to Vaknin's category of N's who mellow, a little.
  My ONLY goal, really ,is to see myself as different than she is and then go forward  I see my relationship with her, now, as allowing me to differentiate  myself from her --so I can "cast" off  the N distortions that I took on.That is my goal now--to wrench off all the lies that she fed me and be done with them.      Love   Ami

[Ami]

Dear Carolyn,
  I hear you and I respect your viewpoint. I can see the difference between my story and Bones, just for an example. I guess that my goal is to separate myself from her to the best of my ability b/c WHATEVER you call it,I don't want to be anything like she(LOL).
 I welcome your viewpoint, Carolyn. Thank you                            Ami

[finding peace]

Even Vaknin says that aging can mellow out an N, particularly if the N has a rift with a child that the N wants to repair. I think that my M IS an N,still, but is trying to get self awareness ,so would fall in to Vaknin's category of N's who mellow, a little.

Hi Ami,

This is where I disagree with Vaknin.  It has been my experience that with a true N, the appearance of mellowing is only a ploy to get you back where they want you.  It is a game.  Once you are drawn back in, they will revert to their old behavior.

There is no self-examination with an N.  If they admit to doing something wrong (very, very rare) or apologize (almost never) it is another ploy to draw you back in.   

While I do think Vaknin has some good information, I have trouble reading what he writes due to his grandiose, inflammatory writing style, and am very leary of accepting without question what he has to say due to his lack of credentials and self-proclaimed N’ism. 

Peace   

[Ami]

Dear Peace,
  I 'beat her down" ,in a strong way(wouldn't take any S##T, so she backed down). If not ,she would have  been exactly the same,so I  really don't know what  category she is in. I just don't want to be ANYTHING like her(whatever the name of her "condition" is). She is and always has been very repulsive to me.There is s/thing that feels "icky" about her. Maybe,it is all the lies. I don't know. I just want to be whole and extricate myself from any and all similarities to her. KWIM?
  I just want to be free of any traits in myself that are from her or like her.       Ami

[reallyME]

This is where I disagree with Vaknin.  It has been my experience that with a true N, the appearance of mellowing is only a ploy to get you back where they want you.  It is a game.  Once you are drawn back in, they will revert to their old behavior.

What finding peace says here, I agree with, has been my experience as well, and is why I'm so concerned about you, Ami.

I do believe that people can change...even N's, however, I also know that 9 times out of 10, N's only change to alleviate guilt feelings or to create appearances as being the hero.

I do hope your mother's change is genuine and that you aren't hurt by her anymore.

~Laura

[Ami]

I guess my goal is to SEE that I am 'me' and different than she is. That is really my ONLY  goal,so hopefully whatever she is, I can achieve my goal.
 She ,probably, is still pretty much the same as ever,I bet. I just wouldn't take any garbage from her so she didn't give it(for the time being-----bleh)
  You guys are the best for helping and caring so much. It really touches me . Thank you so  much.   Love,    Ami

[reallyME]

CB, yes that was what I was concerned about, and I don't think anyone with a PULSE would disagree with what you said about Bones' mother.  (still wondering about your nic, Bones...where did it come from?)

[alone48]

I myself have N traits, but don't believe I'm an N. I was recently thinking about how much time I have spent discussing my situation with N to my friends. Somewhere towards the end of the visit I'll remember to ask how are they/their family doing. This is certainly selfish on my part, but not an ongoing trait as my friends have pointed out to me. But I cannot continue in this direction or I would become very self absorbed, easy to do.

 Also when you're around the N, as Ami has been lately, it's easy to try and forgive traits we know are wrong. Again looking for that evasive love and approval. Maybe Ami just wants to believe that M isn't as bad as she thought or she is willing to look at other alternatives to being NPD.

[Leah]

Even Vaknin says that aging can mellow out an N, particularly if the N has a rift with a child that the N wants to repair. I think that my M IS an N,still, but is trying to get self awareness ,so would fall in to Vaknin's category of N's who mellow, a little.

Hi Ami,

This is where I disagree with Vaknin.  It has been my experience that with a true N, the appearance of mellowing is only a ploy to get you back where they want you.  It is a game.  Once you are drawn back in, they will revert to their old behavior.

There is no self-examination with an N.  If they admit to doing something wrong (very, very rare) or apologize (almost never) it is another ploy to draw you back in.   

While I do think Vaknin has some good information, I have trouble reading what he writes due to his grandiose, inflammatory writing style, and am very leary of accepting without question what he has to say due to his lack of credentials and self-proclaimed N’ism. 

Peace   

Dear Ami,

Everything Peace has said, I totally agree with, from my personal experience with my NPD mother, who also has Psychopathic tendencies (as conveyed to my youngest sibling by her Therapist)

A few years ago, she feigned apology and regret ......... drew me back in ...... and I suffered double measure of everything suffered previously, in the midst of Gaslighting and dense Fog.

As for Vaknin's book .... I binned it long ago.

Love, Leah

[Certain Hope]

Ami,

Thank you for talking with me here. I understand about wanting to feel like yourself, and not some plastic image.

What I know is that.... If I were to maintain contact with my parents on an emotional level, I would not be able to continue moving forward. Even if I do express a few intimate details and they claim to "respect" my thoughts, I know better than to expect any real behavioral change from them.

Some folks just live in their own little world...convincing themselves that they're happy and satisfied.
The rest of us are disposable to them.
For instance, if there's a real ongoing emergency, my mother may call here, simply because the people at church have asked how we're doing... so she is compelled to fill her need, which is  to get a report from me, like some news anchor, and that's it.

Why did your mother come to visit, Ami? What precipitated that? What did she say was her reason...? Why, after all that's gone on between you two, did she think it was okay to simply hop on a plane and show up?
I so strongly feel that there is something you're not sharing about all of this and I don't know why. Of course, you don't have to say anything...  but I'd feel like a phony if I didn't say, this is still not adding up to me. Are you afraid you'll sound like a wimp after all that tough talk? What sort of contact limits will you hold her to from now on? It's not over, you know.... unless you're addicted to simply allowing things to *happen* to you... which is another addiction altogether (been there, done that, too).

Carolyn

Carolyn

[Ami]

Dear Friends,
  I am not keeping any "secret" or holding back of information, Everything that I am going through,I put out on the board,for better or worse.
 I guess that my current view of my M is that she IS an N,but I beat her down--pure and simple. She IS an N and they are cowards. My FIL(an N), I beat down one time and he never bothered me --again.(By beat down, I mean stand up and be strong)
 My M can be beaten down b/c she is a coward.
 My goal is very simple right now--to differentiate myself from her. Every time I talk to her,I see more and more how *I* am different that she is. THIS is all that I care about--I want to get her off me like vile slime that has stuck to me (or I took it on for my own survival)
  All I want is her to get off me-emotionally and psychologically.
  I took all her garbage on( she gave it to me when I was a child). I just want to know that I don't have any of the vile slime on me, anymore.
 That is it. What she is---probably an N who got beaten down--for the moment. That is how I see it .       Ami



I guess that my happiness at the visit was MY strength. I saw that I ,finally, had the strength to not let her hurt me anymore.

[Certain Hope]

okay, Ami...

And now... what's next?

Another thread... about eradicating N spots in self?

I have lots to contribute to that 

Happy New Year!

With love,
Carolyn

P.S. on edit...  That sounds a bit vague     I meant lots to contribute about identifying N spots in myself...  which is a good portion of what I've been doing here for the past year and a half.