Revenge of the Ns

[ch]

Is anyone afraid of the N's thirst for revenge?
It creeps up in my mind so often, which is why i do not want any contact with my Nmother.  If i were to see her, i feel obligated to look miserable and pitiful, essentially mirroring HER.  If i were to show my real confident self, she would attack from envy and jealousy because i am not allowed to outdo her. Well, i realized that it wasn't healthy for me to live that way.

Because of this fear of her revenge, i have always felt compelled to conceal my genuine feeling of contentment, peace, love to humanity. I have had to lower or destroy my self-esteem.  Oh, i beg my self-esteem for forgiveness of abandoning her long ago. But, don't worry, cause I AM BACK!!  

I also detest any stories  or movies with underlying theme of revenge which should not be confused with Justice.  Revenge will never bring resolution and peace.  I guess those middle eastern religions would disagree with me on this.

[Jenocidal]

My N mother LOVES revenge.  She prides herself on her abilities to oneup people, and screw over leaving lasting impressions on her enemy.

Growing up with this level of sociopathy was very difficult.  Her beatings would come out of nowhere and were fierce.

I learned young that if I was going to have any friends... or contact with people in the outside world, that I would have to hide them from my mother.  If I allowed her to have access to my friends she would consume them any way she could.

She set out to sabatage me all the time - When I was 17 my mother got revenge on me for successfully running away from her with the support of the ministry of family services...  by calling up local businesses in town that I applied for work at, and telling them that she would sue them or otherwise ruin their businesses if they hired her daughter (me).  I removed myself from her home by this time, and was living in my own home.  She was mad that I left her regime of abuse, and found a better life somewhere else.  And she tried to harm me many times.  Once I finally charged her with assault, she never laid a finger on me again.  But by this time, the damage had already been done.   She switched all her efforts from physical abuse to stritly emotional abuse after that.

Mother, the queen of revenge.  I have detailed memories from my childhood of her plotting to destroy anyone that ever entered into ourlives.

[ch]

Is it safer to stay close to your enemies or get as far away as possible?
Hmmmm.....

[Lizbeth]

Regaining control of your own life and living well is the best revenge.

I discovered I had accomplished this without even trying (for the revenge part).  Both my N ex-husbands had tried to destroy me in their own way, and continue to control me after divorce thorugh my son's from them.  When the boy's turned 18 I told them that their relationships with their fathers were now their own concern.  I had no need to ever talk to either one of the again, and I haven't.  I worked like a dog for years with little to no child support from both of them and just kept putting one front in front of the other, and just about a year ago I looked around and discovered that I was the one who was on top.

Hubby #1 had stupid replacement NS wife (who he cheated on me with while I was pregnant with his son) and two younger learning disabled children and had already had a heart attack from his bad eating habits and drinking.  His business was failing and he had to take a regular job.   I remember when i was poor and they were so smug with their house and things (they used to rub this in my face while only paying $20 a week child support), now they are both in jobs they can't go anywhere with and that is all they will ever have, that house and those jobs.  Hubby #1 is living in a boarding house on SS disability, still moaning and groaning about how bad his life is (he is the one who created it), how lonely he is, and even my younger son is sick of hearing about it because he does nothing to improve his condtion.  He destroyed everything he had in his life and has learned nothing.  He is a college graduate, what a waste.  He even tried to take my house from me when his son was still living in by putting a false claim on it for welfare payments to him, which was illegal for him to do.  I had to pay mucho bucks to a lawyer for that mess.

However, hubby #3 and I have now been married almost 15 years.  We worked very hard, put him through college and graduate school, me partially through college (had to stop, made my blood pressure go up from the stress), and started a business.  I have a decent job and he works for the Govt. in a job he loves.  I'm finally conquering my personal demons from childhood and adult abuse and we are prospering from working toward our goals. We never picked our heads up for years in striving to keep a roof over all our heads, put the kids through school and hubby too.  When I finally looked up and around last year and realized that I had come out on top of the two who had tried to destroy me I was almost in shock, and it pleased me to know that hard work and living an honest life can and does have rewards and evil will not always be rewarded in this life.  

Not that I still don't have troubles.  Son #1 is an N like his father and I haven't heard from him in a year and that is a heartache that never stops.  But it is something I can't change and I will not allow it to ruin the rest of my life.

Lizbeth

[ch]

Lisbeth,

THanks for that inspiring story.  

I like and agree with your statement that LIVING WELL is the best revenge, as long as they don't come after you and try to take it away.   I have always owned very little, living like a minimalist because i know my Nmother will just come and take it from me, so i have always invested in intangibles such as my education, friends, relationships, hobbies, travels, and developing myself (personal growth).  Also i like to eat healthy and delicious food that goes right to my stomache.  ANd because i am young and healthy, and look pretty good, i try to keep out of my Nmother's sight.    
I am not vengeful at all, and still piti her, so i don't want to make her feel bad.

I have a question about your husbands.  How did you manage to rid of 2 N husbands unscathed and finally meet a nice 3rd  husband?  I am wondering if there was  a major turning point in your life that made you break the pattern?

[BlueTopaz]

Is it safer to stay close to your enemies or get as far away as possible?
Hmmmm.....

Interesting question.  

I'd say always get away from true enemies that are hurting you in some way, but in terms of safety, I figure how a person would do that would be depending on the degree the other is a volitile enemy.

If I had an agrument with a non threatening female friend, and we exchanged heated words, and decided not to be friends anymore, that is one thing.  Unfortunate as it would be to end off negatively and in anger, hypothetically, one could leave it like that and not worry.

But if I was going to break away from an emotionally unstable, controlling person who I thought might even be dangerous and take revenge, I'd swallow all pride in a second and just let them have the upper hand.

I'd try to end it as nicely and according to what their needs are to feel non rejected and angry, if possible.  This is only if I thought I might truly be in danger from the mentally ill "wrath" of someone.

At the very least, I'd try to end neutrally with these kinds of revenge takers.   It might not make a difference (they still might seek revenge), but it might, and the odds are that things could be much worse all around with bad endings.

BT

[Anonymous]

Hi all,

Yes interesting! Normally, I'm a big believer in avoidance "Run away, run away!"

However, I live in the same city as psycho woman and recently moved to a more visible location.  This proved to be an enormous advantage because enough people around us, knew both of our households.  So outside "eyes" were watching if she pulled anything.  At our previous house, she never hesitated to stop by unannounced.  Constantly.  Now she never does.  But she's only into mind games and negligence, not physical intimidation.

  Seeker

[Lizbeth]

Lisbeth,

THanks for that inspiring story.  

I like and agree with your statement that LIVING WELL is the best revenge, as long as they don't come after you and try to take it away.  >

Both of my N ex's live in another state, that helps, and my husband #3 has street smarts and the kind of education that would prevent them from doing anything to touch us in that way.  N #1 has only been dangerous once (he is a coward) and wrapped up in his little life, and N #2, while he seemed very dangerous in the past, is a collapsed heap of an old man now at 57.  He can do nothing more than pout.  Basically, they are both cowards and have always been, but I had to find this out before they lost their control over me.  Not wanting revenge is another way they had no control over me, I put them out of my mind as much as I humanly could once my kids were of age where I did not have to be involved.  Once in awhile they try to pull me back in, but only through others, not directly.  They don't have the nerve to contact me directly now.

<I have a question about your husbands.  How did you manage to rid of 2 N husbands unscathed and finally meet a nice 3rd  husband?  I am wondering if there was  a major turning point in your life that made you break the pattern>

I was very young when I met and married hubby #1, he tossed me away after I had my first child, and only maintained interest once I found hubby #2 (you know how that garbage goes).  It was a constant D&D with him beginning right after our honeymoon.  Since I moved to another state with his son when I married N hubby #2, I did not have much contact with him other than when he picked up or dropped off our son,every other weekend, etc.  He would try some control stuff over the years when I stupidly asked him for help with N son, but not much as he had his stupid NS replacement wife (looked like me but didn't ask many questions and boy was she ever dumb) and new kids to deal with.  

Hubby #2 turned out to be full blown lunatic on top of being an N, and a closet homosexual.  He was dangerous to others and to me and my kids (my second son is his).  I knew at one point I had to get him out of my house or my kids lives would be ruined.

My third hubby was a friend of my brother (who died when he was 16) who knew crazy hubby #2 and was not afraid of him.  He is younger than me by 10 years.  We were just friends because of his relationship to my dead brother.  When I told him what was going on with hubby #2 and i needed someone to help me keep my house if I could get hubby #2 to leave, he agreed to come live with me and the kids and protect us, when he got out of the military.

I managed to outwit hubby #2 (by indifference, arguing, no N supply,etc) so he left the house and I moved this friend in to help protect us and share expenses.  Hubby #2 was afraid of this kid because he knew he was fearless and would see through his BS and he would not be able to manipulate me into taking him back.   My now husband even was arrested protecting us from hubby #2 trying to steal my son from his bus stop while I had a restraining order on him for death threats and driving drunk with the kids.    If it wasn't for someday to be hubby #3, we would not have survived, I was terrified of hubby #2.  My own father was afraid of him.  There were constant calls at my job, I looked over my shoulder everywhere, he stalked me, etc.  His manipulations were rediculous, he walked around with my 28 page divorce papers for extreme cruelty (my argument against him) in his pocket crying for how bad he'd been and that I had cause to divorce him, but begging everyone, including one of his shrinks, to ask me to take him back.  This SOB doctor even called me on his behalf.  I asked her if she would live with someone like my husband and she said no, so I said, how then, can you, a professional, ask me to do the same?  How sick you are to do something like this you know is wrong?   Sick SOB even went to the minister that married us.

At one point, he moved in with my schizophrenic mother. I warned her how dangerous and unstable he was (what a laugh) and she would not listen to me.  My mother turned on me because she had a man in her house again, until he tried to kill her (put a gun to her head).  Then she called to tell me how crazy he was!  I found out later from him that he had been having sex with my mother as well, as some sick way of keeping me in his life.  He also told me about his homosexual experiences when he was younger.  I did not want t know about any of this, this pig married me under false pretenses.

Unfortunately, he decided to start drinking and taking drugs to put in a false disability claim with the military to get full disability for a non-existent stint in Vietnam, and that backfired as it kept him in and out of jail and in and out of hospitals and eventually fried his brain. He did, however, get his disability.   He moved back out of state and things got a little easier, exept for him trying to take the house that time.    Before that point, however, I had reached a boiling point for me and told him to go ahead and kill me, I didnt' care, but he wasn't going to control me or my life any longer.  That took the wind out of his sails big time.  He was basically a coward who bluffed a lot, but he was scary, a body builder and he even had his shrinks terrified.  One called me long distance and warned me he was out of his mind and looking to kill me.

The drugs and my calling his bluff took their toll.  He crumpled.  He began a full blown pychosis wherein he believed he was having a love relationship with Stevie Nicks and started to write her (I have his letters that my son found in his apartment) and follow her from concert to concert.  That slowly died out and now he just sits in his room and whines about being lonely.  He has also told my son all the sick stuff he did when we were separated and about his homosexual experiences when he was a young man and also when he was in the hospital after our separation.  I think this is part of what was wrong with him to begin with.  Mr. Macho was hiding his true self and it made him warped.  

I had to endure supervised visitations (by me) until son #2 was 18 and then I was free.

Hubby #2 tried to control the only people he could in his life after that, his two sisters and my son (through money for college).  Once his sisters complained to my son, who told my #3 hubby, that #2 hubby was coercing them through physical threats to give him money from the sale of their mother's house (they had already paid him his share and he had sniffed it up his nose) and my husband called him and asked him if he wasn't ashamed of trying to still push women around, what kind of a man was he.  This put the little dear in a funk for about 3 weeks and he threatened to take my son's college money from him, as if one thing had anything to do with the other.  Fortunately, son knows that father needs him more than he needs father, I have taught him about N supply and he knows he is now his father's only N supply and he yet he does love him, sick as he is.  So that didn't last very long (holding back college money).

Anyway, I started to date hubby #3 somewhere in that mess when we realized how compatible we were and we married in 1990, which really put my hubby #2's panties in a wad.  He hates and fears him and that is the #1 reason he has remained under control, #2 is my realization of what a true coward he is.

Hope this story helps someone.  I had to use my wits to get out of this mess, unfortunately, not everyone came out unscathed.  Son #1 is just like his N father, even though they spent very little time together.  That shows you how much genetics must have to play in the creation of an N.  Son #2 isn't an N at all.

Lizbeth

[ch]

Hi Lisbeth,

Its a powerful story.  I hope it helps you to get it all out as much as it helps many readers who learn alot from your story. Its mutually beneficial, and connects us all.  Thanks so much for trusting and sharing with us.

Is there any chance that son #1 can get therapy, or is he too far gone?
In any case, i hope you won't feel guilty about him being an N.  There is help out there, and since he is an adult, he is responsible for his own life and future. Also, you are a much stronger person now, if he could only realize and forgive the old you from his tough childhood years, and work toward a new relationship.  Sometimes, the pain is too deep and they need more time.  Have patience and continue your commited journey toward living well and being happy.  You are a good role model and give hope to alot of people.

[Anonymous]

Son #2 was in therapy as a child dealing with his crazy father leaving.

Son #1 seemed fine.  When Hubby #3 and I realized something was wrong with my #1 son after he dropped out of college for the first time, we offered to get him therapy and even go with him.  No dice.  Later when he moved back into our home after some trouble (we helped him out) and his N behavior was escalating, we ordered him to get into therapy or he would have to leave.  He left and stayed away for 2 years.

He came back into my life the year my mother died, and was pretty normal behaving for a time, though by then you can see how warped his thining was becoming.  When my brother in-law died at 46 of lung cancer May 2003, I called #1 son to have him come home for the funeral.  He said he was going to get a ticket and would call us when he got on the plane.  We never heard from him again.  Only his brother has had a few slight contacts, then nothing for almost a year.  I think he didn't have money for the ticket (he has screwed up college twice and new jobs many times) and did not want to lose face, so we all were silently D&D because of it.

I'm not sure if his N behavior comes from what we all went through in the house from N hubby #2 or from direct inheritence from his father.  They are alike as two peas in a pod.  They even have the same evil laugh.  He was not raised by N husband #1 and this is the person he most behaves like.  He is also EXTREMELY HANDSOME, also like his father.  You only have to speak to him for a few minutes to realize there is no one insde.   He has the same disgusting attitude towards woman has his father has.  These things he did not learn in my house.

He has gotten away with a lot because of his looks and charm, even in school.  I used to beg the teachers not to pass him if he didn't do the work.  By the time he went to college, his behavior seemed cemented.  Only looks and things mattered, how he appeared and how he dressed.  The fact that he can't hold a job or complete anything he starts doesn't seem to phase him in the least. He is lazy, anything that takes too much effort, except for working on his body or his tan, gets dropped by the wayside.  

I think he is also closet homosexual because I have been told of this suspicion by several of his old friends and by who he was hanging out with in South Beach in Florida when he was living there after he moved out of our house the last time.  Lots of wealthy gay doctors, and he died his hair bright blonde and told us "pool water" did that (like Scott Peterson).   But he has lived with and sponged off women, his age and also older with children, who are smitten with his looks.

I've told part of my story before, it comes in fits and starts because it is so long, so convoluted and so disgusting in parts, but I know it helps me to tell it here and be accepted and it can also help others, many of whom I know have been through even worse than I have.   Finding out about N's has done a lot for me, it has put the last piece into the puzzle I have been trying to finish so I can be a whole person.

Thank you for being kind and making me realize I should be proud of myself for having lived through hell.  Everything I did, I did for my kids, to get them out of that hell too and get them an education.  I can't help it that they didn't want to cooperate at times (son #2 just moved back home to finish college, boomerang kid).

Lizbeth

Hi Lisbeth,

Its a powerful story.  I hope it helps you to get it all out as much as it helps many readers who learn alot from your story. Its mutually beneficial, and connects us all.  Thanks so much for trusting and sharing with us.

Is there any chance that son #1 can get therapy, or is he too far gone?
In any case, i hope you won't feel guilty about him being an N.  There is help out there, and since he is an adult, he is responsible for his own life and future. Also, you are a much stronger person now, if he could only realize and forgive the old you from his tough childhood years, and work toward a new relationship.  Sometimes, the pain is too deep and they need more time.  Have patience and continue your commited journey toward living well and being happy.  You are a good role model and give hope to alot of people.

[Lizbeth]

Sorry, that was me above, forgot to log in.

[ch]

I'm not sure if his N behavior comes from what we all went through in the house from N hubby #2 or from direct inheritence from his father.  

Hmm,... the old nature vs nurture debate. I'm still waiting to hear what the latest research has to say about this.    In your #1 son's case, it sounds like both. But I would lean more toward NURTURE only because of my own situation.

I was born from a Nmother and it is hard to believe that i would inherit the N gene from her. I admit i am an Nsupplier or N-enabler, but never an N.  The proof is in all my failed relationships with Nmen--a pattern that i am now aware of and need to break once and for all.  For sure, i could never be an N.

However, i do see that the N gene might have been passed down to both my younger siblings both of whom were directly raised by Nmother during the wealthy Reagan years.  I, on the other hand, was sent away in the late 60's to be raised by relatives from infancy to 5 years old, so my personality was already formed just in time to defy and reject my sick Nparents upon reuniting with them at age 5.  It's no wonder that i got the worst treatment of all the kids, afterall, i was not molded by them, and did not conform.  I was a strong feisty kid, but i had to keep silent and pretend that all was well in our household.  After so many years of pretending, i guess i forgot about my TRUE self for a long time.  And in my adulthood, things did not work out smoothly as was expected, so i started to work on myself and find the cause of all my problems. My defense system was running on autopilot for so long, protecting me, that i forgot i had very sick and cruel parents. A few years ago, a very wise mentor and trusted friend pointed me in the direction of my parents as the root cause of my troubles getting on with normal life. If it were not for him, i would have spent more  years living in the dark, and unknowingly protecting the abusers.  Also, I am so glad to find this group, so i could find my real self and celebrate my life again.

Lisbeth, it sounds like you have done all you could for your children.  And you are right to set boundaries with them in teaching responsibility.    

Also, i think i know what you mean about GOOD LOOKS. My Nmother was born very pretty (like Shirley Temple), and leaned on looks so much all through life that she is lacking in any virtue and good character.  I always thought it was a curse to be so good looking.  But, as we all know, looks don't stay forever, and as that happens, the N traits only get worst.

[Anonymous]

Hi Lizbeth and ch,

Hope you don't mind me jumping in.  

That is a powerful cautionary tale, Lizbeth.  I think I'm glued to Court TV SP trial because of the terrible reminder that the Devil is a handsome man.  It is scary just how charming some can be while they are looking at you as only an object of self-gratification.  (shiver.)

My personal theory is that N is somewhat genetic.  I read a research article that hit the newspapers earlier this year that seemed to suggest that empathy fires up a certain part of the brain and some people (guess who?) don't light up their lives during the MRI.  The empathy    bulb is dark.  

My T, however, insists that N is due to trauma during the first three years of life.  (I wonder if being born second counts as narcissistic trauma; many Ns I know are #2 in birth order.) Maybe it's a combination of some psychosis or disorder that pre-exists which leads to rejection and resultant Narcissism.  I have two siblings and only one of us is N and we all faced the same rejection that Nsibling did.  So go figure.

This is only a pet theory of mine.  Thanks for letting me butt in.  
Peace, Seeker

[ch]

Hi Seeker,

Thanks for that bit of interesting news about the MRI.

And guess what?  My Nsister is 2nd born.  And she is So controlling.  She bossed the 3rd child around  growing up because they are close in age and he is the only boy and got the best treatment.  SHe went neck to neck with Nmother to even things out at home.  I remember when she turned 5, I ( at age 12) was very frightened of sharing the same bedroom with her. She was a very angry and vengeful child, and increasingly difficult.  I remembered that i felt so bad that i offered her all my clothes, and put make-up on her and took some very glamorous photos for her.

As with all N's, once you stop doing good things for them, they think you are the meanest person on earth. She did not invite me to her wedding last year.  However, she made it very clear in her emails that she would be expecting wedding gifts, despite we haven't been in touch for almost a decade.  

Years later, i often heard Nmother say that my sister and her had the same genes while evidently, me and brother took to father's enabling style more.  Yikes!! We all need help very badly.

I think your pet theory is right!!

[Moonflower]

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