Author Topic: My Mother - A Pathological Liar  (Read 18391 times)

Gaining Strength

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My Mother - A Pathological Liar
« on: July 10, 2008, 01:48:35 AM »
I will build a slow thread about this.  It will be important for me because this will finally lead to my version of NC with my mother. 

I believe that her lieing has been life long.  But it has been undeniable for the past 7 years since my son was born and my husband died.  She lies of unconsequential things and things that matter as well. She lies to my face and continues the lie even when I call her on it with incontrovertible proof.  She just continues the lies or piles more lies on top of the other lies.

Ex:  We were traveling over the 4th.  We were driven to the airport at her arrangement on our return.  We started out for the airport at 9:15 am and I asked her what time our flight left.  12 noon.  "Why are we leaving so early. "  "The airlines told me that we needed to leave at 9:15."  "Mother, that is a lie.  The airlines doesn't have a clue where you are leaving from."  "They asked me and told me we needed to leave at 9:15."  "The airlines don't do that.  You are lieing."  "Yes they did - they told me we needed to leave at 9:15."   

Why lie?  She lies about everything.

My brother and I recently accompanied her to her dr's office because she had fallen (and had lied about that. ) And we wanted him to know it and to help us confront her on her increasing frailty and need for significant lifechanges.  We required an evaluation by a psychiatrist, one whom we know, the head of the department of Geriatric Psychiatry.  He is excellent.  She lied to us straight to our faces on Monday when we overheard a telephone call from her physician's office making the referral.  She lied to me again this morning about what she was doing today.  She lied because she knew we intended to accompany her to the psychiatrist's office and would give him information critical to a correct evaluation.  She lied to the psychiatrist and to us about her visit.  After confirming some facts about the appointment I will confront her in writing, via e-mail and cc my brother.  From now on I will not have a relationship with someone who is a pathological liar and all communications will be in writing.  She tells everyone, including the psychiatrist, that I misunderstand and misinterpret her and had a poor memory of what she says.  I'm done.  I'm angry - very angry, rageful.  I'm done.

teartracks

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Re: My Mother - A Pathological Liar
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2008, 02:19:54 AM »



((((((((((((SS)))))))))))

tt

gratitude28

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Re: My Mother - A Pathological Liar
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2008, 07:52:48 AM »
((((((SS))))))))))

I am facing the same thing with my mother. I didn't realize until the last two years that she has always lied to everyone, and me included. Now that I realize this, I can remember a hundred times that she lied when I was a child too, but never thought about it. She lies enough so that I now assume she is lying even when she isn't. For a while, I tried to catch her in lies, but many times she was actually telling the truth when I did this. Regardless, I absolutely trust nothing the woman says and because of it cannot bear to even hear her voice. It's funny, were she at least honest, I might be able to put up with some of this, but it is the lies, and the fact that everyone pretends they are OK that really get to me. As you can see, I am also very angry.
SS, I am so sorry you have to deal with this. Keep calling out mthe truth so that she at least knows she isn't "pulling one over" on you. I even think that they get to the point that THEY can't separate the lies from the truth. It is exactly like a child - you want it to be a certain way, just pretend and then it is....

Take care SS and keep writing as it will help you, I think.

Love, Beth
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Certain Hope

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Re: My Mother - A Pathological Liar
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2008, 08:00:07 AM »
((((((((SS))))))))     (((((((Beth))))))))       

Quote
I even think that they get to the point that THEY can't separate the lies from the truth. It is exactly like a child - you want it to be a certain way, just pretend and then it is....

Beth, that's what I've come to think, too.
It's all about appearances.
Whether they're trying to appear tough and ferocious or sweet and kind, there's not an ounce of reality in that act.
It is absolutely ALL, ever, only, without exception, about spinning a false reality of the moment... with no foundation, no depth, and no thought for the impact on others.
Sheer illusion.

Carolyn

Ami

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Re: My Mother - A Pathological Liar
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2008, 08:51:30 AM »
Dear SS
 *I have the opposite mother. She will tell the brutal truth about everything and use THAT as a weapon. The tools may vary,but the NM is the same at the core. I know it must be very,very hard for you to face the truth. It is one of the most painful things anyone can do. The hopes for a parent who will love you  flow away like water going downhill.
 I hear your voice  emerging stronger as you face the truth. When I am in the greatest darkness, I use ,"You shall know the truth and the truth will make you free." I cling to it.
 We are promised freedom in every area,including  emotional and mental.Freedom is being unencumbered by pain and sorrow. As you face her, you will face your own beauty. She was always the problem,NOT you. That is the pot at the end of the rainbow.                Love you,  Ami

(((((((((((((SS)))))))))))))))
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Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
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jordanspeeps

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Re: My Mother - A Pathological Liar
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2008, 10:55:39 AM »

I'm sorry to hear what you're going through SS.  I'll just add that lying is a tool of the N.  One of many.  Manipulation requires the occasional, or not so occasional lie.  When it's an aquaintence or co-worker or stranger, you can phase them out of your life, but when it's mother, it can instill in one a rage (or a depression, I suppose) so intense it can hardly be contained.  And that is precisely why they do it.  Like Leah says, it's just good, old-fashioned, gaslighting.  She wants you to think that you are the crazy one, that you are the unreliable one, that you are the incompetent one.  She's a con-artist, therefore, her lies, to her, are real.  Con-people have the abiity to believe their own lies.  That's why you feel like you want to hit something, because the lies fly in the face of what you KNOW to be the truth.  Try something different.  When she lies, you smile at her.  You give her that look you would give a toddler making his/her first attempt at a lie.  Patronize her with a "there, there.." and a pat on the head.  Let her know you know she's lying with the strong confidence that she is unable to rattle you with her lies.  Take the bite away.  When she's lying and you can't prove it, begin to give her that same look, maybe even do the finger shaking motion that says, "oh you little rascal, you, what are you up to again.."  and make it look like she's the incompetent one.  The more confident and patronizing the better.  I think this would cause her to lighten up on the lying because she's not doing it to empower you, she's doing it to frustrate you.  Don't allow her.  Personally, I would go with NC.  Who has time or energy for games and tests?  Take care and best to you with whatever decision you make.  Oh, and I'll  just add this quote from a book mentioned in another thread where the lying of the N is described. 

John Steinbeck on the manipulative lies of Cathy Ames: (major female N character of East of Eden)

“Cathy was a liar, but she did not lie the way most children do.  Hers was no daydream lying, when the thing imagined is told and, to make it seem more real, told as real.  That is just ordinary deviation from external reality.  I think the difference between a lie and a story is that a story utilizes the trappings and appearance of truth for the interest of the listener as well as of the teller.  A story has in it neither gain nor loss.  But a lie is a device or profit or escape.  I suppose if that definition is strictly held to, then a writer of stories is a liar—if he is financially fortunate.

Cathy’s lies were never innocent.  Their purpose was to escape punishment, or work, or responsibility, and they were used for profit.  Most liars are tripped up either because they forget what they have told or because the lie is suddenly faced with an incontrovertible truth. But Cathy did not forget her lies, and she developed the most effective method of lying.  She stayed close enough to the truth so that one could never be sure. She knew two other methods also—either to interlard her lies with truth or to tell a truth as though it were a lie.  If one is accused of a lie and it turns out to be the truth as though it were a lie.  If one is accused of a lie and it turns out to be the truth, there is a backlog that will last a long time and protect a number of untruths.” 

gjazz

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Re: My Mother - A Pathological Liar
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2008, 11:31:35 AM »
SS: My NF is a consummate liar, and he lies to manipulate and control.  I did exactly what you are doing: demanded every contact be in writing.  It did help in my case, and I hope it does in yours.  If your NM is anything like my NF, though, be prepared to feel like ripping your hair out, because she'll dance around her own words like a whirling dervish, then refuse to write anything at all.

I've often wondered about the lying when no lie is necessary, or even beneficial.  I've wondered if he can't tell truth from fiction.  But I THINK he can, I think he just likes the other version better.  One thing that might be hopeful: he has gotten better over the years.  He's nearly seventy now, and catches himself going down that road, and retreats.  Sometimes.

Take care, SS.  It's such a tough thing to have to go through.  I thoroughly understand your rage and frustration.  I once ripped the phone out of the wall.  And didn't plug it in again for three months.

sKePTiKal

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Re: My Mother - A Pathological Liar
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2008, 11:48:25 AM »
Ah... SS... I so understand. Especially the anger part.

My oldest daughter has lied to me consistently, since about the time she was in 4th grade. And just did it again a couple weeks ago.
But you know, I couldn't say if the lying is intentional; if she truly means to manipulate me or if, in her own mind - what she's saying is what she really believes. If the latter, then I'm afraid whatever mental illness affects my mother - is affecting my daughter as well. Same kinds of behavior, really.

So sad, these people who need help but don't realize it - even when it's pointed out to them.
So maddening, as they can be pretty highly functioning (not necessarily normally) - when they choose to be.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

James

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Re: My Mother - A Pathological Liar
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2008, 12:09:35 PM »
Shame Slayer.......I think feeling you anger is a good thing and you do know why you feel this. Ultimately it's an emotional reaction from being hurt, possibly much of it originating in childhood. More to the point, maybe feeling anger inside has never been enough, (doing this left me in a loop of anger that I could not free myself from) expressing it in an open way I feel is key, to break the cycle. NC is a form, as I see it, of being true to your anger. A gift of voice to your ownself as you are refusing to shoulder the burden of blame any longer and see your mother for who she is, in your eyes. You have decided to speak up. In my experience, this moment was scary and painful, but I found it put me on a road towards real freedom, although it takes time. My very best to you as you are finding your own courage now to speak up........love and support, James

LilyCat

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Re: My Mother - A Pathological Liar
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2008, 12:15:37 PM »
((((Shame Slayer, Gratitude)))))) and anyone else whose parents were consummate liars.

This is awful. One should able to trust one's parents to be truthful.

And yes, they do believe their own lies. My therapist says this frequently -- talks about patients he's had (not by name or other ID, of course) who believe their own lies. They really believe they're telling the truth. Scarey. I mean, they swallow it whole hog.

This is really a significant loss -- the lack of a truthful parent -- that needs to be mourned. I am so sorry for you. You deserve better.

Gaining Strength

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Re: My Mother - A Pathological Liar
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2008, 12:53:24 PM »
Thanks so much to those of you who have written.

My own rages surprises even me.  I keep tring to find the pigeon hole to shove it into - what kind of rage; is it depression, is it short term, is it permanent, how deep.  I'm analyzing my rage.  What a waste!

I see that those of you who have responded are offering sympathy and I am so appreciative.  It is helpful.  It means so much to me.  I also see that some of you have actually experienced the same thing.  That is a comfort beyond words.

My rage is deep.  I am going to make an effort to harness it to move myself forward.  I might be able to do this because at last I believe my own self rather than the lies.  For a life time I have "argued" against the lies as though only if I win that argument with whom? am I correct.  This time I don't need to win.  I AM correct.  She is a lie - she doesn't "do" lies, she IS a lie.

I wish I had the email I sent her to post here.  In part I sent her a definition of PATHOLOGICAL LIAR from Wikipedia that reads as if it were a description of my mother in particular not a pathological liar in general.

She now lies about her lies.  She told her gerontologist, in front of me and my brother, that she never told me that she told the roofer that she didn't have any money and hung up on him.  She told me she didn't say that.  She told my brother she didn't say that.  She told the geriatric psychiatrist whom my brother, sister-in-law and I know personally, that she didn't say that.  Never mind that she did and that she told the same to my sister-in-law and the roofer has confirmed it.  She doesn't even deal with the lie she told my sister-in-law.  She simply makes a point to tell all these folks that I am wrong.

2 or 3 weeks ago she told her financial advisor in front of his investment guy, my brother and ME that her $8,000 + MC bill was one I rang up in New York with my son last Thanksgiving.  The next day I found her mid-Nov statement on which she owed just under $6,000 before I went to New York.  She got sick at the last minute and did not go.  She refused to get a dr's note and get a refund on her airline ticket and she had booked the hotel which cost over $1300.  I still have ALL the receipts from that trip.  I spent just over $800.  A far cry from the $8000 she accused me of in front of those other people.  She knew  better and I have proof.  Thank God my brother no longer views me as his enemy.  Did he, he could have taken her statement and gone to town over that.  That is exactly the sort of thing that I think of when I think about what you Hops have been through with your brother.  Had anyone chosen to believe her it could have opened up all sorts of investigations and recriminations.  That was a very, very dangerous accusation which she refuses to back down from.

My rage is pouring forth as though the boil has finally come to a head that is erupting after years and years of pussy inflamation.

My true prayer is that this time my rage does not turn inward and destroy me but that at last it goes outward and propels me toward further healing. 

I am ANGRY!!!!!




I am going to go have a drink ------ with lunch --------- but I never drink.  Please no moralizing.  I am going to have a drink. 

I couldn't sleep last night.  Up, wide awake 2am, 3am, 4am.  I am ANGRY!!!

I have other things to write about but I can only remember them when I am driving.  For two days I have had an insight that I want to post about but put me in front of the computer and I can't remember.  Too much rage.

I owe several of you here individual responses and others who haven't posted here as well.  I am in the midst of a rage fest and ask for a short delay.  I am thankful for this community.  AS many of you know, I have few friends and only my brother and mother's companion to discuss this with.  My brother has a wife and son to work these things out with.  I don't begrudge him but it makes it different.  He believes that he is not angry about her lieing and that he has worked through this in many ways.  Perhaps he has.  But, and he actually recognizes this, her lies are more pointed towards me and not towards belittling and putting him down.  There is a difference.  Yesterday he suggested that I detach.  Of course he is correct but I have a ways to go before I can do that.  I have much venom to spew before I can come even close to detaching.  Right now I am RAGING!!!!!!!!

Now I remember what it is I have been wanting to write about.  When I next log on I will write about the way in which I take EVERYTHING personally and the great damage that has done to me in basic human relationships as well as pragmatically.  I know why and that is a recent deep in the heart out of the head revelation.  It is because so much WAS  personal, so much was DONE personally to me in my FOO.  Everything WAS personal and I simply saw the world being personally mean and destructive to me and have reacted to the world that way.  And I have given up on myself and on the world because of that.  I think it is possible that this experience will catapult me through this destructive way of living into this world.  I pray it will at last allow me to live into this world as myself not as a victim of my FOO/world.  I pray for this rebirth.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2008, 01:05:18 PM by Shame Slayer »

Ami

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Re: My Mother - A Pathological Liar
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2008, 12:57:14 PM »
I wish I could feel your rage,SS. Go on Alice Millers website. She says the real healing comes when you feel the rage. I think Miller ,herself, on her website, could be an Enlightened Witness for you, right now. I am always here for you,whenever you need me, too.               Love   Ami
   

(((((((((SS--rage is GOOD)))))))))))
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

gjazz

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Re: My Mother - A Pathological Liar
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2008, 01:17:28 PM »
SS: I relate to everything you've said here.  I remember it like it was yesterday, screaming, literally, in my apartment, pulling my hair out, throwing the phone.  When I refused him contact, my NF lied about me to everyone.  He told my sisters-in-law I'd said things I not only NEVER said, but didn't believe.  He was trying to isolate me, punish me for not giving in.  The damage lasted years--in fact I'd say some still exists.  A drink?  Hon, I had about five.  Take care of yourself.  I relate also to the taking everything personally.  When you've been attacked over and over, that's natural I think.  But there are good people and they will help, if you can find the trust to let them in.  hang in there.

sKePTiKal

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Re: My Mother - A Pathological Liar
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2008, 01:33:37 PM »
SS:  I can relate to taking everything personally - being irritated and overly angry about just normal life things.
I think, for me - it was because I WASN'T addressing that pool of rage/anger. Once I did - the other stuff pretty much disappeared. It's coming up again for me, in addressing my smoking... and needs to be dealt with again...

Remember - there's a lot of power of in rage. It's exhausting. If you don't feel up to your usual routine, that's why. And you must be careful to point your rage where it belongs... not let others become collateral damage.

I hope that you do exhaust the initial intensity of the rage - let it burn itself out on it's own like a wildfire - in due time. It will remain - but not be a constant in your life; not overwhelming and will continue to dwindle away.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

gratitude28

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Re: My Mother - A Pathological Liar
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2008, 01:39:46 PM »
SS,
I really think it is great you are raging - odd thing to say, I know, but I believe it is an extremely important step in your growth and separation.
Lots of love,
Beth
"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable." Douglas Adams