is narcissism a disease or evil?

[BG]

Hi,

Maybe a redirect back to the original question...

I first heard the label of 'evil' applied to narcissitc personality disorder, very carefully and cautiously, by M.Scott Peck in 'People of the Lie', as I think was cited in earlier post.  I am personally undecided in how to regard my N-mother...many of the same issues raised by others...her actions have consequences, her motives/malice may be skewed by something closer to an illness, etc.  -But- I'm fascinated by a related question...is 'evil' a by-product that is spawned by a N, and either tolerated, confronted, ignored, etc, but those around them.

What I've noticed is that a N will spawn many situations that allow others, non-N, to confront their own choices of good and evil.  These people (typically) are not the one's creating the chaos and don't have the pathology to use as cover/excuse -- they are like lots of us on this discussion board, and many of our relatives who may not yet see how their lives are warped by a N in their midst.

In my own family, I have witnessed, and for a time participated in, treatment of a sibling that can be objectively described as morally wrong, and after factoring in that I know right-from-wrong in most other parts of my life, my continuation of behavior that I know to be wrong (and harmful to another person) is an example of 'evil'.  The situation was set up by my N-mother, and out of the type of dark loyalty that is cultivated in these families, I made a bargain ('with the devil', if you forgive use of the gratuitous use of that cliche in this thread) to harm my sibling in order to ensure continued love from her.   The harm was not physical, not immediately obvious, but almost from the get-go my subconscious started telling me I was on the wrong path.  And eventually I stopped the 'evil' behavior of my own, made amends with the harmed sibling, and got on with a happier life.  Of course that required cutting against the grain in my family, which had its own cost.

But shouldn't we expect to see some 'evil' in our lives every day?  And isn't what all healthy humans strive for in some way is the 'good', which sets up the mythic struggle most of us have been raised on, whether through religion or at least pop-culture.   From N-families, I just think we have a higher likelihood of experiencing and maybe participating in 'evil' than the general population...not some Hollywood excorcism or Axis-of-Evil rhetoric...just behavior that we know at some level to be wrong, but feel drawn to due to the strange dysfunctions N's create among those around them.  And we do our best to choose the good instead of the bad...it may take months, years, a lifetime, but the struggle toward the good is what (I think) defines humanity, and enobles even the most outwardly mundane and boring life that any of us might lead.

My turning point this summer in recognizing the truth in my family is that I was trying to do something that I think can be objectively regarded as 'good' (help set up a financial support mechanism for a disabled brother) and it was incredibly difficult to do in my family...l felt I had to go against everything I learned growing up in order to do good...which made me get very scared of exactly the kind of behavior I was taught as a child, from a moral/ethical perspective.

BG

[OnlyMe]

Reading 'People of the Lie' a few years ago left me with the realization that there are both 'Good' and 'Evil' forces at work on earth, and therefore, the possibility exists that some of the N's in our lives might in fact be 'Evil'.

[Anonymous]

Thankyou BG for re-establishing calm discussion and I just want to say that I admire your bravery in admitting to behaving in a way that you consider an example of evil, for having the courage to speak about that to us.  Your empathy for others is clear and admirable.

I can relate to your words and to those experiences too and I know that feeling of facing one's own truth in both situations.  So glad you are here.  

s

[lizbbeth]

Seems positively narcissistic to me.  Another N come to "excuse" their vile and EVIL behavior and blame the victims.  So patently obvious when you know what to look for.


{quote="Anonymous"]Hey "Somebody" - Your sarcasm and putdowns lead me to believe that you aren't as compassionate and non-angry as you claim. You seem pretty angry to me.

bunny[/quote]

[bunny]

In my own family, I have witnessed, and for a time participated in, treatment of a sibling that can be objectively described as morally wrong,

This is emotional blackmail and unfortunately it's pretty common. I wouldn't call it 'evil' to cave in to blackmail. More like desperate, or unable to cope with familial rejection. It's wrong but not evil in my book. I suppose it is colluding with evil and hopefully the person (like you) will stop doing it. But not everyone is able to develop this degree of backbone when the alternative is family rejection. That feels like a life-or-death choice to some.

bunny

[Anonymous]

Dear BG and all,

I think it might be timely to point out that not all Ns are pushing the needle to red.  The Ns that do are about 1% of the population, the Hitlers and Stalins among us.  There are about 10% who are seriously and pathologically flawed and do not care to change and they can pass for normal.  Then there are the 20 percenters who can change if motivated, they are basically good people who can learn if properly motivated and they can care about other people.  They might be unaware of the effects of their actions, but once pointed out, they do care about outcomes, etc.

IMHO, there is no dealing with the 1% who are destructive.  I don't care how much abuse they themselves have endured, how their brains are programmed, or whatever light can be shed on their twisted brains.  They victimize other people.  Period.  My interest is survival.  I don't want their money, good looks or sex appeal AT ALL.  It isn't worth it.  Just look at OJ.  He blames his wife (yes, I think he's guilty--can we just accept that without arguing it here--) and he blames his dead wife for not being around to help more with the kids, like it's her fault she was murdered.   I have no sympathy.  OK? And he still has his hangers-on justifying their "stand-up" behavior of snuggling up to a murderer.  

Just an example--any others?  There are plenty of people in prison who feel they did nothing wrong.  No moral compass at all ie what's the big deal?

Please, y'all, do not change the subject to approval/disapproval of the tone of my post.  It gets too messy, ya know?  Seeker

[Portia]

Nice one Seeker. Example: Rosemary West, she popped right into my head. Rosemary West is a vile woman. Yes she’s had a terrible life, but so has Dave Pelzer and he hasn’t sexually abused his own kids, murdered them and buried them in the back yard. Can I have sympathy Seeker? No, like you, the business is survival, in the ‘real world’ as Bunny put it. In the real world people are shits every day. I don’t have the time or enough compassion to analyse every little word and gesture of some total stranger and empathise with them.

We’re still very primitive beings. We don’t know enough. We know very little and are limited by our position in time, history, place, language and limited by being stuck inside our own heads. So how do we deal with the 1% or even the 10%? If they threaten the already fragile fabric of society, we have to remove them from everyday society, until we know better how to deal with them. In some States, we kill them. In some countries, we kill them slowly and painfully. In the UK we imprison them (if we don’t kill them ‘accidentally’ through rough handling). I think we still use ECT in the UK. We still allow black-market drugs to enter prisons (on purpose?). We allow suicides to happen in prison cells (or are they suicides?). Social workers are underpaid, overworked and, like teachers, treated as less than ‘first-rate’ citizens. Because society here still bases human worth on material value. Very primitive. But that’s where we are, right now, in evolution.

I’m not someone who is ever going to come close to knowing what we do with people who do evil. To me people who do evil are those who have NO LOVE for anything or anybody – love being wanting to and acting to protect, care for, help to grow and see evolve.

We want to evolve. Sure, it would be fantastic right now to understand and ‘cure’ people who do wicked things. But what about the rest of society? How do we spread the care and love around? I am not capable of loving the whole human race. It’s physically impossible. So in evolutionary terms, I’d be better employed loving those who have potential and those who support me. There is no objective in my loving OJ or Rosemary West. And those who do love the most wicked? Does anyone love OJ or Rosemary West? Maybe not. Sure, both of them can have my intellectual compassion from a great distance. But up close active love? Not for me. Evolution wants us to improve. Maybe we could get heck of a lot smarter, use more of our brains, feed more people, solve diseases, stop bloody wars before we start putting our energy into those who are likely to blow the whole thing apart!

Ack. Even in posting I think I gotta circular argument here, in making the post, if you see what I mean. I care less what happens to people who do evil. I care more about what happens to people who I see as doing good.

[Portia]

Somebody, why have you ignored Bunny’s last post to you? It said:

"Somebody" - I thought you were only going to post to one thread. And this wasn't the thread.
bunny

Are you the same Somebody, or are you in fact “an imposter trying to create chaos” as the previous Somebody said another Somebody would be?

I want to ask you S, Somebody, why are you here, on this Board?

What do you want? What is your objective?

[Anonymous]

Hi all:

Portia wrote:  "I care less what happens to people who do evil. I care more about what happens to people who I see as doing good."

Me too.  I try to understand why people are doing evil and I encourage them to do good, if at all possible.  Sometimes there is potential for change, sometimes not.   I praise the good I see in those who do good and encourage them on.  I value good the most and look for the good.  I try to behave well myself, but I don't always succeed.  I try my best and I believe most people do.  Some don't and I have a desire to encourage them to try because I believe it will benefit all.


"Somebody, why have you ignored Bunny’s last post to you?"

Because it felt like taunting to me and I'm trying to avoid war.  I see no point in going there.   I can't reach you Bunny.  You've got your mind made up about me and my words are seen by you as some kind of weapon, I think.  That's not true but I don't know how to proove that to you or how to say anything that will not be viewed that way by you (my perception-maybe I'm wrong).  I don't want to war with you, or anyone else.  I don't need your acceptance but I would like it.  I would like very much to communicate and relate with you in a kind way but I don't think you want that with me and I respect your wishes.  I'm not interested in going to bat with anyone here.

"Are you the same Somebody, ...."

I answered that question for you, in ramble.  Yes, but I'm much smaller now.  By that, I mean, I feel like I have been reduced, my voice has been reduced to a tiny thing.  I'm still trying to speak, regardless.  I'm still trying to communicate and speak what I feel.  I think I need to.

I want to share what I can and learn what I can.  My objective is to improve my knowledge and share anything that may be of use to others.  I'm here to heal.

And the colour, by the way, is to distinguish between what others have written and my response (I just realized that may be misinterpreted, maybe not).  I saw it somewhere else, in another post, and thought it was a good idea.  It made it easier for me to follow the post, so I thought it may be a good idea, since I don't know how to use the quote thingy.  I picked green because I like that colour.    I'm adding this to help make my intentions clear.  It would have been a good idea to do this previously, had I thought of it but I didn't.  My mistake.

s

[Portia]

Dear all, am I hijacking this thread talking to S like this? Views welcome. I will stop if you say stop, okay?

S you said:

I try to understand why people are doing evil and I encourage them to do good

Why? Seriously, why do you do this? Do you think you can change other people?

I can't reach you Bunny. You've got your mind made up about me and my words are seen by you as some kind of weapon, I think. That's not true

S, how do you know that you can’t reach Bunny? Aren’t you making a big assumption here? How do you know if someone has their ‘mind made up’ about you? How can you say that someone’s perception of your words is NOT TRUE? This is taking me, in my mind, straight back to your first thread here. Where you said that your child’s belief was NOT TRUE. Who are you to say what is true or not true in someone else’s head? (I’m sorry Bunny that I am by default talking sort of about you here. My intention is to find out more about the reality inside S. Why? Why not?)

I answered that question for you, in ramble.

And your point is? Yep, you did answer me in Ramble. Does that mean I can’t ask again, for clarification? Or are you telling me off for asking again? What gives here? What’s the intention? You said you were leaving. You appear to be back. Clarification can be useful.

By that, I mean, I feel like I have been reduced, my voice has been reduced to a tiny thing.

It doesn’t sound tiny to me. Your posts are strong and opinionated, to me. And what do you mean “have been” and “has been” – note how this is happening to you, how you are not responsible for minimising your own voice. If it’s not by your choice, presumably someone else is responsible for reducing your voice? And if so, who? Us, presumably? Are you shaming us? You said you were leaving. It was your decision. And now you’re back. What happened?

I'm still trying to speak, regardless. I'm still trying to communicate and speak what I feel. I think I need to.

Why do you need to? Serious question.

I want to share what I can and learn what I can. My objective is to improve my knowledge and share anything that may be of use to others. I'm here to heal.

What exactly are you healing? Another very serious question. The answer could turn this around.

Colour? Do as you want to with colour. It doesn’t bother me one way or another. Serious questions though for you, up there. P

[Anonymous]

Hi
I'm really getting worried here.  This whole thing is starting up again.  This is exactly what our nparents did to us- push the buttons to make us react, thus putting them in control and in the spotlight.  Why don't we just treat posts like "somebody"s like we give advice to treat our nparents?  Just put up that invisible wall so they don't get a reaction, turn away, not respond and go on with our regular lives?  Like with our nparents, this person will never stop, want to change, try to see another point of view, stop blaming others, stop trying to drive a wedge between us and others, etc., so we have to ignore this person.  Nip it in the bud.  We don't have to respond to these posts, thereby giving people like this the power.  This board is for positive support- lets try to go on with that.

[tigerlily]

Sorry- the previous "guest" post submitted at 8:45 was mine- I forgot to log in.

[Anonymous]

Dear all, am I hijacking this thread talking to S like this? Views welcome. I will stop if you say stop, okay?

Stop. I realized what I was doing and am not going to respond to her any further. Since you ask, I think that is the way to go.  

bunny

[Anonymous]

Red Flag.  
This is just a hunch, but  's' is signing and creating an angry disturbance here much like 'Somebody' named 's' who was recently turfed from another Narcissism board.
Maybe or maybe not just a coincidence.

Worth repeating.

[Portia]

I just stopped!   Thank you (((Bunny))). P