How is a Child to Know?

[teartracks]

Hi bear,

FOO stands for family of origin, though it's not always the family of origin that is the abuser.

Didn't see the show you spoke about, but have heard of similiar cases.  Very sad.

Your post makes sense to me. 

tt

[Lollie]

Out of practice with the quote function. Please bear with me

The person I talked about in the opening post is one whose being has been violated/traumatized by hostility to the point where he has lost and may never regain the ability to experience genuine self-awareness.  His inward awareness or self-awareness has been deconstructed and replaced by the examples set for him by those he is entrusted to.  The reality of it is IMO that from then on, his every thought is focused on survival.
 
This is not a person whose parent sits him down and says, son/daughter, I'd like to explain why it is good for you to follow my example of hostility.  So the child, not much older than five, is left to interpret his environment and the examples set before him.  Can you imagine a five year old explaining 'why' about much of anything?

Yes, this is true. Once a person loses self-awareness, I think things get very bad from there. We've all had experiences with people like that! 

Yes, a five-year-old can't "explain" much of anything. But they will still try to understand and make sense of it. What the child will do is assume there is something wrong with them, which is what I did, and I think depending on a wide variety of variables (temperment, gender, birth order, the ability to hold onto and cherish life-affirming things outside of the immediate hostile environment) will "act out" and/or "act in." They will form a unique way of dealing with their abusers, the hostility, and the assumptions they form about their parents and the outside world(accurate or not), and feel and act in ways that make sense to them and offer them some kind of relief.

I guess what I wanted to say is there are many ways of coping with and trying to make sense of the hostility. I have 2 bothers and a sister. We had the same parents. But the imprint they left on each one of us differs based on our individual perceptions and coping strategies. The unique ways we, for lack of a better word, turned out, sometimes border on mystery.

I sense that I'm taking this thread in a direction that you had not intended. If that's the case, please let me know.

[teartracks]

Hi lollie,

Actually, I didn't have a direction I wanted the thread to go.  Feel free to put your thoughts down whatever direction they take.  

Edit in:  I guess what I wanted to say is there are many ways of coping with and trying to make sense of the hostility. I have 2 bothers and a sister. We had the same parents. But the imprint they left on each one of us differs based on our individual perceptions and coping strategies. The unique ways we, for lack of a better word, turned out, sometimes border on mystery.

I have two siblings.  We are all very different.  BUT- hostility is something we hold in common.  One sibling is outwardly and unashamedly hostile.  The other is a more level personality, but if you hang around long enough the hostility shows through.   Copious hostility was our home environment, two generations at the same time, grandparents who lived next door, and parents.  The insights I'm getting now are very recent.   Reaching the decision to change came 8 years ago.  Understanding how I got there, I believe, is being revealed now.  There have been recent additional (to the two mentioned below) influences that brought me to post about it.  

There are exceptions to every rule.  These are just my thoughts...

My premise is that a child whose self-awareness has been stripped from him (during the naive stage, which ends at around 5 years old), loses  the capacity to be self deceived,  or said another way, when self-awareness during the naive stage is taken away by trauma/abuse, the capacity to be self-deceived is carried with it.  Therefore, his thinking is based on the examples and indoctrination of those who took away his self-awareness.  I think bearwithme's post about how a child's brain paths are laid one upon the other may back up my thinking.  I think if the child, now an adult, is ever to acknowledge and undertake change of his disordered thinking, there must be a powerful congruant moment where he recognizes  1) that his authentic self was driven from him at a very early age and 2) that he have a  consuming desire to re-establish the part that was taken from him and be willing to change accordingly.  You could call it an ahhh moment or a miracle.  I also, believe it is commonly thought that everyone coming from this type of trauma/abuse could and should experience such an epiphany.   So why don't they?   If you remove the assumption that they are self-deceived, it explains why fewer disordered people live the 'life examined' than disordered people who don't.  It explains why  many people live out bungled lives along the lines of the opening post seemingly never knowing that their life is bungled and devoid of the desire to change.  

tt
PS  I haven't mentioned genetic predispositions.  Ovbiously, that plays an important part in the overall picture of human behavior.



 

[Portia]

TT: I'm trying to follow your thinking and I want to ask about:

it explains why fewer disordered people live the 'life examined' than those who do.

can you explain/expand please? Or in other words: how do you know fewer do it? Is it in the definition of disordered?

A ridiculous idea? - maybe they just don't think they have the time to devote to trying? They find ways to ignore the nag. It's much easier to accept the easy lulls of TV, food, sex, sleep, work, gossip etc etc. People have 'busy' lives. And if your disorder doesn't end you up in prison or dead, you may be able to rage, cry, self-harm, be addicted and nobody will say a word to you. Maybe that's too trite. But I see people who would rather distract themselves with a living death, than look at life.

I *feel* you have an interesting point about the lack of self-deception. But I'm having to work hard to comprehend. I shall try again when I feel brighter.

[Hopalong]

TT,

Your thinking is inspirational to me.

Thank you.

love,
Hops

[teartracks]

Hi Portia,

Thanks for trying to follow my thinking on this.  I am definitely a low level writer, I try hard though  

TT: I'm trying to follow your thinking and I want to ask about:

it explains why fewer disordered people live the 'life examined' than those who do.

I edited that part to read, it explains why fewer disordered people live the 'life examined' than disordered people who don't.

can you explain/expand please? Or in other words: how do you know fewer do it?

I based the statement on V board stories I've read over the years of those who experienced trauma & abuse during their first five years of life  and who were actively examining their lives amongst multiple abusers who weren't.  

Is it in the definition of disordered?

Don't know...I never know whether to use the term disordered or dysfunctional or some other term.  I'm just putting my own thoughts out there for whatever they're worth.

I want to think about this part of what you said.  

A ridiculous idea? - maybe they just don't think they have the time to devote to trying? They find ways to ignore the nag. It's much easier to accept the easy lulls of TV, food, sex, sleep, work, gossip etc etc. People have 'busy' lives. And if your disorder doesn't end you up in prison or dead, you may be able to rage, cry, self-harm, be addicted and nobody will say a word to you. Maybe that's too trite. But I see people who would rather distract themselves with a living death, than look at life.

Have to get some sleep...

tt

[teartracks]

TT,

Your thinking is inspirational to me.

Thank you.

love,
Hops

Thanks Hops.

tt

[Gabben]

  So why don't they?   If you remove the assumption that they are self-deceived, it explains why fewer disordered people live the 'life examined' than disordered people who don't.  It explains why  many people live out bungled lives along the lines of the opening post seemingly never knowing that their life is bungled and devoid of the desire to change.  

tt,

I am following this thread. On some of my other recent threads I have been writing about my healing process with hostility stemming from child/baby neglect. Part of the reason that it has taken me so long to uncover these wounds (41) of hostility is that "disordered" thinking is so deeply ingrained and then acted out in subtle ways that are not necessarily looked upon, at least by me, as disordered. I'm a good rationalizer, something which I have through self examination learned to identify within myself. Still self-decieved, I am just still coming into the self-awareness of the ways that I emotional bonded, or not, as some have articulated well the internalization of the FOO "ways." 

Familiarity, that is the issue for me, I gravitate towards what is comfortable out of fear(s), fears which I falsely believe will keep me safe. One way that has helped me to come out of self-deception is role models; having an actual visual of what an "ordered" life looks like. When I can see what real love is and real living is supposed to be about then I can measure myself to see where I fall short, take the steps through self-examination to get the grace/light I need to further the letting go of what is "old" and needs to die in me so that the new can grow.

[Portia]

TT, previous page:
What do you mean, And it sure helps to know that a brain is just a brain

Helps me not to identify my thoughts as 'me'. Helps me to think: stupid brain! look what it just did! Hope that explains.

[Portia]

TT:
there must be a powerful congruant moment where he recognizes  1) that his authentic self was driven from him at a very early age and 2) that he have a  consuming desire to re-establish the part that was taken from him and be willing to change accordingly.
I see. Yes, I get what you were saying now TT. (What's a low level writer by the way? I don't understand the phrase.)

About: and nobody will say a word to you
It's asking for help, knowing how to ask for help, someone hearing, someone staying....someone noticing in the first place? - perhaps not someone noticing. Although i don't know. Nobody ever said to me: you need help, go get some. I functioned okay and was lucky (in some ways). Lots of people do this. A change was almost forced on me by external events edit - and I had the time and resources to do something about it. I was very very lucky.

Lise, your second paragraph, yes. And about 'being bad' too, I can see it. I know there's self-deception. And this:
When I can see what real love is and real living is supposed to be about
that is exceptionally painful (even without questioning the 'supposed'). I am a realist: some are luckier than others. And I have the consolation of knowing that I lie to myself. I'm not joking. Oh and life can get in the way too. Can you feel the resistance? I can.

[Gabben]

Part of the reason that people stay stuck in the FOO pain is that they feel safe there, if they were to explore selves, SEE all of that buried hostility within, it would be very hard, hard to SEE and hard to come to terms with. No one likes to think of themselves as a hostile person or dare I say even an abuser. People need safe others to help them explore themselves, get to know themselves, otherwise, when finally peeling off the first harsh layers and through the heart of ourselves, we get distorted, we need to be balanced enough or have others around us that help us see that we are both GOOD and bad, a bit of both, and that ALL are both good and bad. If we are not able to see the good within ourselves then we will not want to face the ugly, it would be just too morbid to have to see.

[teartracks]

Hi Lise,

I think that a baby, toddler, child is not capable of self-deceipt during the naive years.  I think his self awareness can be destroyed by abuse/trauma and be replaced by a proxy self-awareness by his abuser(s).  That's why IMO that this child grows up with an inherited, ingrained hostility that seems normal, and which he thinks, deserves acceptability by his peers, spouse, family, church, and the community at large.  The proxy self awareness he was forced to adopt by his abusers will be rhe driving force behind the  unfolding of his peronality, indeed his life until or up to the point where a congruency of events causes him to recognize 1) that his authentic self was driven from him at a very early age and 2) that he have a consuming desire to re-establish the part that was taken from him and be willing to change the standards of his life accordingly.  You could call it an ahhh moment or a miracle.   I've don't believe it possihle for a child in the naive stage to volitionally self deceive or agree to have his self-awareness switched off for someone elses'.  I do believe that those who have power over him can take the child's authentic self-awareness away by abuse, and that once that happens, the child operates from a state of false self awareness.  At tht point, the proxy self awareness is perfectly alligned with the desires of his abusers, the appeasement of their abusive whims.   The naive child is now conditioned to accept the abuse as normal and acceptble.  And I believe that is why in later life, having practiced the ways of their abuser, they 'hear' no one, and habitually avoid seeking help to untangle the  troubled mess of their lives and the lives of those who love them.

Familiarity, that is the issue for me, I gravitate towards what is comfortable out of fear(s), fears which I falsely believe will keep me safe. One way that has helped me to come out of self-deception is role models; having an actual visual of what an "ordered" life looks like. When I can see what real love is and real living is supposed to be about then I can measure myself to see where I fall short, take the steps through self-examination to get the grace/light I need to further the letting go of what is "old" and needs to die in me so that the new can grow.

Lise, I believe that role models who lovingly look past the  faults of the abused who is in active recovery/healing and see their needs, i.e.,  to hear the abused without judging, indulging the abused by understanding that they are in a battle royal to take back a part of themselves that no one else can rightfully use or  reclaim  for them, and  by understanding that the person born into hostility doesn't recover from the abuse quickly, certainly not overnight.  I believe these are some of the most powerful influences for the abused who is actively trying to recover.  Healing/recovery is a process and not a short one in most cases.  I believe that role models are important from start to finish, but I believe they are most helpful during the second half of recovery.  Before that, I think the recoverer is still in the 'deer caught in the head light' phase.

I believe the ability to be self deceived returns, or begins to return at the point where the abused experiences the ahhh moment I talked about in the first paragraph, this post.  I'd be interested in what others think of this...
 
Hope you'll share more insights as the thread progresses.

tt

[teartracks]

TT, previous page:
 
What do you mean, And it sure helps to know that a brain is just a brain

Helps me not to identify my thoughts as 'me'. Helps me to think: stupid brain! look what it just did! Hope that explains.

Ah Portia...I get what you meant.  Don't they call that displacement?

(What's a low level writer by the way? I don't understand the phrase.)

I'll give an example of low level writing.  Trying to explain it would probably result in more low level writing.

Example:  It explains why fewer disordered people live the 'life examined' than those who do.

I edited that part to read, it explains why fewer disordered people live the 'life examined' than disordered people who don't.

tt


About: and nobody will say a word to you

It's asking for help, knowing how to ask for help, someone hearing, someone staying....someone noticing in the first place? - perhaps not someone noticing. Although i don't know. Nobody ever said to me: you need help, go get some. I functioned okay and was lucky (in some ways). Lots of people do this. A change was almost forced on me by external events edit - and I had the time and resources to do something about it. I was very very lucky.

Portia, I like the way you put that.  I think people give subtle and not so subtle 'hints' all the time of what is good about others and what is not so good.  But if the receiver sees everyone as just another duck, it all  sounds like just another QUACK!  

tt

[teartracks]

Hi Gabben,

Part of the reason that people stay stuck in the FOO pain is that they feel safe there, if they were to explore selves, SEE all of that buried hostility within, it would be very hard, hard to SEE and hard to come to terms with.

If we are not able to see the good within ourselves then we will not want to face the ugly, it would be just too morbid to have to see.

I hope it doesn't sound like I've got a case of 'What-if-itis.  If it does, just skip over the what ifs, OK?

What if their 'selves' is missing?  What if their abuser scraped away and discarded the child's  'self' leaving him without the foundation on which to flourish as an individual capable of free will?  What if when they (as an adult) look inward, the only thing there is to see is the 'self' of the abuser because their 'self' was destroyed?   Heavenly stars!  Everytime they look inward, it is a replay (whether consciously acknowledged or not) of the abuse.  Why bother to look inward, if that is your legacy?  Why?

No one likes to think of themselves as a hostile person or dare I say even an abuser.  
I agree.  But don't you think that if the person I've described on this thread were able to see their hostile nature, they would stumble over their own feet looking for the way to become a  peacable, non hostile people?  Am I being too idealistic?
People need safe others to help them explore themselves, get to know themselves, otherwise, when finally peeling off the first harsh layers and through the heart of ourselves, we get distorted, we need to be balanced enough or have others around us that help us see that we are both GOOD and bad, a bit of both, and that ALL are both good and bad.

I agree with all you say, but first, I believe the person I've described on this thread has to have somehow recognized  and acknowledge that some awful thing took away his self-identity before he can entrust himself to the care of  hopefully to a gifted therapist and a circle of caring others who can nurture him through the reestablishment of his 'self'.

Gabben, I may be way off in my thinking, and as you can see, I have way more questions than answers.

tt

[Gabben]

Gabben, I may be way off in my thinking, and as you can see, I have way more questions than answers.

tt -- not "way off" at all, very helpful and insightful. I am just home from a trip visiting family a couple hours drive away and in need of some rest. I'll read again tomorrow...there is some very very helpful and comforting things that you wrote, especially about the violation of self, or the authentic self being robbed and not of the fault of the child, who as you said cannot self decieve, their being was robbed from them, (hope that makes sense and that is what you are saying, correct?) this is going to be something for me to reflect on....very helpful.

Thank you,
Lise