Author Topic: Subtle Damage to the Senses  (Read 9113 times)

Hopalong

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Re: Subtle Damage to the Senses
« Reply #30 on: December 02, 2009, 06:43:08 AM »
Hi Bear,
I'm no scientist so I don't know whether this is true, but I've found comfort in thinking about Ns like animals, because I think very often we humans forget that we are also animals.

What I mean is, in a litter of mutt puppies, the genes of their ancestors will come out in a variety of ways. One will be runty, one alpha, some shy, some outgoing, some grow big, some have stick-up ears, some droop...one will have spots, another solid colored coat. In a mixed gene pool, which is what all humans come from (unlike purebred dogs)--there's no end to the variety of gene expression.

A bad-tempered dog can have a litter of puppies in which one or two grow up to be bad-tempered, even though five more are all sweeties. So, I figure, the N gene's like that. No telling who'll get the genes and the various vulnerabilities that make it erupt through the membrane of self to take over.

Absolutely, environment means a lot too. I think, although I definitely have Nspots (Ntraits) that I did not become a full-tilt narcissist because I had a kind, gentle, other-oriented father. Someone in my home was the opposite of an N, and I adored him. And may have been more like him, genetically (I also look more like him than I look like my mother). My brother is like a member of her family, physically...and there are stories of some of her relatives being "disturbed".

So, to me, it's very likely that genes are a much much more powerful influence on personality than one tends to routinely think about. Behavior, human stories, anecdotes, are such richer material for our imaginations. Genes are invisible scientific things, and personally, I barely get the concept. So I spend my N-study time thinking of stories (which are all environment).

But I think the truth is, the gene factor is huge. At least as big as environment.

I don't think a gene can be prevented. But we can change the environment side of the equation by rewriting our own stories going forward. And change our children's from what ours were, or what our parents' were. So I think maybe you can prevent the development of full-blown Ns in most cases.

Remember the stories (assume I have the animal wrong and have oversimplified the science) about when a monkey began to use a new tool in a new way, and the researchers observed that the monkey's offspring, who for some reason were NOT raised by that monkey, grew up having the same never-before-seen skill? There was some mysterious leap in behavior and knowledge generationally...a new evolution. What fascinated me was there was NO logical story or explanation for how it was transmitted.

That suggests to me that the one way to have a better chance of preventing narcissism from blossoming in children is to heal ourselves. They'll benefit, even indirectly. It will be transmitted forward--if not to them, maybe the healing will appear in another child in our vicinity. (Nature's pretty mysterious--what if a child down the street we'd never met somehow learned something because we are healing ourselves?) And if one of our children or grandchildren seems to be expressing the gene, we can push harder to teach character and empathy than we would ordinarily have to in order to encourage those character traits.

It's always healthy to ask for what we want, as long as we can release the outcome.


And if we fail, and a child grows up to be a cold or brutal adult, we should continue healing ourselves anyway. Our new knowledge, our new skills, will still come out down the line somehow. I think new socialization skills (which is what our healing from Ns are) can even leap out of biofamilies and help OTHER children.

Individuals, including our own children, may be lost to narcissism, but we can always keep healing and trust that there's a ripple effect. Every time I show compassion to myself and to others, every time I decide to be strong even when I'm scared, every time I set a calm boundary and hold it, every time I forgive myself with generosity and then forgive another, every time I ask for what I want and release the outcome, every time I extend myself for a stranger.

xo
Hops
« Last Edit: December 02, 2009, 07:03:01 AM by Hopalong »
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BonesMS

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Re: Subtle Damage to the Senses
« Reply #31 on: December 02, 2009, 08:30:45 AM »
Hi, Hops!

For what it's worth, when I was taking psychology classes, we often had a discussion about Nature versus Nurture.  IMHO, I think it's a combination of Nature AND Nurture.

Bones
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Sealynx

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Re: Subtle Damage to the Senses
« Reply #32 on: December 02, 2009, 10:01:29 AM »
Hops Bear and Bones,
I once heard a talk on the topic of "Unexpressed Genes" in identical twins. What they were learning is that life history seems to affect genetically transmitted diseases like arthritis and growth factors. Some identical twins can grow to different heights yet they are genetically identical. That research born of twins is now being used in other areas. I found several articles (too technical to be fun to read) about unexpressed genes being a factor in why some siblings inherit schizophrenia and some don't.

Hops you mentioned:
1) they have a genetic vulnerability to harden into Ns
2) something in their childhood is Really Wrong and damages them further
3) their socialization is off because of things that happen in their homes, though if they're smart they learn to copy behavior superficially. It (proper socialization) never matures in them, though, since they didn't get it at home, just from copying...[/i]

Those ideas are evident in my the homes of both of my parents..

My father's father was just plain mean and could have been a narcissist. His wife died when I was very young but I hear she wasn't very nice, of course it is hard to tell because he was so dismissive of women. Both the girls and boys in the family were treated like slaves. The boys worked the fields and the girls did domestic chores around the house. They were literally bred as laborers.

Here is how they turned out:
Daughter one..Extreme anxiety to the point of stuttering.
Daughter two...Extreme anxiety and obsessive compulsive disorders.
Daughter three...Extreme narcissism. Married well and practiced emotional incest with her children. Their son killed his sister, both parents then himself at age 36.
Son one....Left the family after the death of his first wife. Changed religions and moved away (constructive no to little contact).
Son two...My father. N traits but basically a weak "nice guy". Married my N mother.
Son three....Complete narcissist. Prided himself on cheating his siblings in family business deals. Always sought high profile jobs and married a rich woman.

My mother's family was not parented by Narcissists. My grandfather had a brilliant mechanical mind and once surprised me with a drafting board that fit over a twin bed I had and could be easily stored. He was a perfectionist in his work, but not mean. His wife was very prone to anxiety attacks, never mean. No abuse in this family but almost all the children have had some issues with alcohol (self medication for anxiety perhaps?).

Daughter one...Was the child of my GF's first wife who died shortly after childbirth. He then married her sister so genetics are very similar. Joined the Army and married a pilot. They lived within 10 miles of my grandmother but her family was very secretive (perhaps fear of her siblings?). She was  controlling of her kids. They still all live on a plot of land she  bought. She was a no nonsense "military type" but not an N.
Daughter two.... My mother. Was the apple of my GF's eye. If anything she was spoiled. She is an N and even in her baby pictures there is a strange "far away" look in her eyes.
Daughter three...Married well and lived a life of luxury. Was a beauty queen in college and also very N. My cousins often comment that my mother's mannerisms and actions make them think they are looking at their own mother (D two)
Daughter Four...She married well and moved quite often (constructive limited contact). Controlling but not N. More personable than D1.
Daughter five...Extremely Narcissistic and controlling. Never married.
Son one... Very nice guy but slighted by his siblings for marrying a woman they felt was beneath him. He was by far the nicest and happiest of the children. A very funny friendly and warm person who loved his wife dearly until she died of cancer. He had an enviable capacity to find and keep good friends.
Son Two... Introverted N trait personality. Think engineer. Not much emotional latitude. Married a woman who is also very technical like him.
Son Three... Quiet, very nice professional man who has married a succession of N women.
Son Four... Never married. Diagnosed by military as N. Outgoing personality.

Is  there a relationship between the development of N traits and anxiety disorders?? Is the anxiety genetic or situational? Both parents came from small rural communities where the gene pool was not very large. I know my maternal grandfather and mother were second cousins and members of a close knit ethnic group that may have intermarried for generations.

Some genetic personality types may be more prone to N behaviors. My fun uncle was someone who NEEDED people. His idea of fun was to enjoy an experience with someone. While some of the N's were social, they were more likely to share secondary interests like drinking and dining with peers. My socialite N aunt died almost friendless in her home town after being a prominent person for most of her life. Granted many former friends were dead, but certainly not all of them. Many of my fun uncles friends were dead too but he had apparently made more as the funeral service was filled to capacity.

I also wonder about the controlling non N's. A need to control can exist along side of N behaviors, but also instead of it. Is it an attempt to protect certain parts of the personality? Do various levels of controlling behavior make up one end of the N scale where the person is still somewhat aware and empathetic enough to realize they lack certain abilities and seek to protect them via controlling which "buttons" others are allowed to push?

And then there is the spiritual aspect. Reincarnation has always made great sense to me. I feel that some of these people have a history.
S



« Last Edit: December 02, 2009, 04:18:24 PM by Sealynx »

Hopalong

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Re: Subtle Damage to the Senses
« Reply #33 on: December 02, 2009, 02:42:33 PM »
Wow, Sealynx...that's a pile of very close observation.
Good for you for the detachment that made it possible.
And how wonderful that you have a warm and funny uncle.

As to anxiety and N traits...

For decades, I was a vibrating mess of anxiety. Panic attacks. Valium. Therapy. Terrors.

If it's associated with Ntraits, maybe Npeople are hypervigilant lest the attention they feel so dependent on might waver?

For my own sake, I hope it's the case that people may just have anxiety because they are survivors of Ns, as well...

I even wondered at times if some of my sensitivity was because I was born a month early. I used to feel I was "missing a filter" that other people had.

Thank god it's better with age. I am less sensitive now and grateful for it.

Hops
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Sealynx

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Re: Subtle Damage to the Senses
« Reply #34 on: December 02, 2009, 03:19:29 PM »
Hops,
We all have every reason to be anxious!  I do wonder however if my grandmothers was more physiological than psychological. I can understand the narcissists in my father's family but the ones in my mothers family, with so many children out of 9 having traits are more difficult to fathom. Sadly my "fun" uncle suffered a stroke and died two three years ago. Interesting that the siblings collectively decided he was the "black sheep"!

Hopalong

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Re: Subtle Damage to the Senses
« Reply #35 on: December 02, 2009, 03:59:19 PM »
Ahhh, sorry I didn't take in past tense on your uncle.

Of course he was a "black" sheep!

Ns tend to loathe people with warm hearts, open arms, generous natures, and senses of humor.

None of which they are able to imitate very convincingly.

Hops
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bearwithme

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Re: Subtle Damage to the Senses
« Reply #36 on: December 02, 2009, 05:13:21 PM »
Hops, you delve deeply into the chasm of N's history and/or biology. You brought up some points worthy of me looking more into for my own edification.  I find this subject fascinating because most T's say that they don't know how many N's are in the world because they never, or rarely, seek treatment for their woes in life, if at all recognized by the N themself.  It is mostly the children, friends, coworkers or other family members left in their destructive wake that they wonder "what happened" at some point and then seek help. 

So genetically, if I'm a carrier of said N gene then my daughter may carry the gene.  Scary to think that I can carry the gene but not exhibit N traits but pass the gene on to my daughter and then she may exhibit the trait, or, maybe it takes two N genes to tango at all--like in cystic fibrosis.  This is what science needs to explore. 

I'd like to think that parenting carries a heavier weight than he gene here.  N is a "disorder" and can be detected pretty early if someone cares enough about the N to listen to them as a child.  This is just me thinking outloud and I have no idea about the science or history of how, where and why.  I just get to thinking because I'm raising a very young child and fear the worst.  I don't want to fail her.  I need to show her empathy and unconditional love and how to give it back...where's the manual when you need it???? LOL! :lol: :lol: :lol:

I'll keep reading above and learning from everyone here.

Bear

Hopalong

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Re: Subtle Damage to the Senses
« Reply #37 on: December 02, 2009, 05:49:12 PM »
Narcissism as a genetic trait
In the decades since the discovery of DNA and the subsequent mapping of the human genome questions have arisen as to whether traits of personality, including narcissism, are partially or fully determined by one’s own genes.

Heritability study with twins
W.

The study subjects were 175 volunteer twin pairs (90 identical, 85 fraternal) drawn from the general population.

Of the 18 personality dimensions, narcissism was found to have the highest heritability (0.64), indicating that the concordance of this trait in the identical twins was mainly due to genetics.

The general conclusions of the study were: (1) agreement with other studies that some personality factors have significantly high heritability coefficients, and (2) there exists a continuum between normal and disordered personality.



Read more: narcissism - Narcissistic Culture, Narcissism as a genetic trait, Medical narcissism, Celebrating Narcissism http://encyclopedia.stateuniversity.com/pages/15652/narcissism.html#ixzz0YZg0L8PK
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Butterfly

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Re: Subtle Damage to the Senses
« Reply #38 on: December 02, 2009, 09:16:16 PM »
All I can say here is WOW!  Will the N population grow and become a majority in successive generations, then?  Or, will the awareness of society reject Ns, refuse to breed with Ns?  THeoretically, they could die out . . . but, if they adapt socially to get their N supply and if some who are not N still carry the gene . . . 

Sealynx

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Re: Subtle Damage to the Senses
« Reply #39 on: December 02, 2009, 10:12:48 PM »
I think one of the problems with them dying out is that at least in American society, celebrity status is worshiped and that essentially ignores the morality of the person if they can produce revenue. So marketable talent of any kind trumps good morals and empathy. How many famous people that young people look up to today are known for their empathy and kindness to others???

HeartofPilgrimage

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Re: Subtle Damage to the Senses
« Reply #40 on: December 03, 2009, 03:34:07 PM »
Sealynx, What are satsumas? (Better to expose my ignorance than to not know).

bearwithme, you know what would probably have cooked your mom's goose? When she said JUST THROW IT AWAY, for you to have gone to the trash and tossed it in. Take her sarcasm "straight." I did that with my mom. She started wailing, "I guess I'll just have to be VERY CAREFUL what I say to you from now on" (very sarcastically) and I replied seriously, "Thank you mom, I appreciate that." Totally flabbergasted her.

Sealynx

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Re: Subtle Damage to the Senses
« Reply #41 on: December 03, 2009, 05:17:28 PM »
Satsumas are nice little oranges that grow down here. They can be as large as a normal orange but most are about half the size and more sweet than tart. They peel easily with just a fingernail for a knife and then can be broken apart into small pieces like a mandarin. They make great snacks.

sKePTiKal

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Re: Subtle Damage to the Senses
« Reply #42 on: December 04, 2009, 07:35:15 AM »
Hi... I've been mostly "lurking" on this thread and must say it's intriguing.

Thought I'd share something about the "nurture" side of things... my experience with my mom was pivotal to my "conditioning" to always think of others, take care of others before myself.... and any time I expressed pleasure, pride, or satisfaction with myself for an accomplishment: she tarnished it, discounted it, and/or "took me down a peg"... claiming I "would get a big head" if she allowed me enjoyment of what I was capable of. Sometimes, she even claimed credit for it. Yet everything about her was "right", "perfect", and immensely "special".

Pot calling the kettle black, don't you think? My mom was adept at projecting HER foibles onto me. For me, her ability to project - and the fact that I wasn't allowed normal boundaries as a child - was the mechanism used to accomplish her N-supply (making me miserable was her pleasure - she'd "done her job") and make me emotionally warped. Work on boundaries - and being aware of my own feelings (and not trying to predict other's feelings) is ongoing. Undoing that conditioning is going to take quite a lot more time - and I can't believe how much fun, silly happiness, and just plain emotional warmth I have been missing. I can only take small doses at a time, right now, without the boomerang effect of fear or anxiety kicking in later or simultaneously. I retreat to the old "withdraw" or "shutdown" strategies to maintain that inner emotional equilibrium - my camoflauge & "armor" - that protected me so long.

But just like any other "habit" it can be changed... it's not bult-in to my DNA. Thank God!!!!!!
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

Hopalong

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Re: Subtle Damage to the Senses
« Reply #43 on: December 04, 2009, 08:54:04 AM »
Absolutely, you weren't DNA doomed. PR, how could you be the amazing person you are now if that would be all it took? Plus, it's pretty clear you didn't get any sort of N-ish gene anyway.

I hope, in fact, despite my thinking about how strong genetic tendencies may be, that nurture is the bigger piece of dysfunction in most cases. Because that's the most hopeful view, and it may be reality based, too.

We can RE-nurture ourselves. And we are.

The process is beautiful and arduous. One of the amazing things about this board is seeing and sensing so many people having their epiphanies, small and large, all the time...it's like we're all working together on an enormous tapestry.

Some drafty old castle hall but we're all bundled up sitting around a huge quilting frame by the hearth with wolfhounds keeping our feet warm, the knights off on a hunt...some are stitching fast, some working with gold, some doing background work, all the colors together are amazing... When someone cries her tears intensify the color of the yarn. Laughter makes the work go smoother.

Now and then someone goes off for a nap. We've got provisions for a seige, and plenty of mead.

xo
Hops
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Sealynx

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Re: Subtle Damage to the Senses
« Reply #44 on: December 04, 2009, 09:49:14 AM »
Jiust read something very interesting. I download a sample of book called "NutureShock: New Thinking about Chidlren". It is based on research concerning the way children are currently being raised in the US.  The idea that children should be praised and rewarded constantly (regardless of effort) is creating a generation of problem kids.

According to research it goes like this... Children who are praised simply for being smart rather than effort refuse challenges (in other words if they don't already know how to do something they won't try it least they not seem "Smart") and later in life are prone to denigrating peers who do not support their fragile egos!

So children who haven't been told they are "superior beings" and have lived with constant criticism are going to be victimized twice when they cross one of these kids. Parents egos are often partially at fault for this behavior because they are unable to separate themselves from their children (sound familiar?) and by constantly praising their kids essentially praise themselves.

We think of abuse as a major cause of N behavior...But can undue praise be an even larger factor? My mother alternated between put down comments and ridiculous words of praise like saying I have "long legs". I could see I didn't but as a former dancer, this was a trait she valued. Why not glue it on to your child?

According to the research we are breeding a class of kids who cannot bear failure and disappointment. Children who are instead praised for their effort and told they must have worked very hard to achieve something and/or can become smarter by using that "muscle" called a brain, are not afraid to try new things generally do better in their later years.