Training: Take 2

[sKePTiKal]

OH Guest!! Despite lacking the "knowledge" to understand the classical music references... I think you might've gotten to the gist of the book MUCH more quickly than I did!! LOL...

I approached the book with the idea that I'd learn some universal truth from it... and so I slogged through each word, pushing & pulling with the words... looking for that emotional narrative "hook" that my intuition could connect to in the story... and I had mega-trouble with that! I think Hesse meant the book to be difficult; that he was hoping to simultaneously to poke fun at the illustrious German philosophers (and other nationalities)... and yet gain some validation for himself, via this complex metaphorical, allegorical story. This is absolutely dead-on correct:

Is it possible that Hesse was trying to impress with his book, trying to gain approval from some unseen higher authorities, to get the recognition he wanted?

That said, all these years later The Glass Bead Game still stands for me as an example of how someone can create - in living color & detail - an alternative reality that they completely believe in, evidence to the contrary notwithstanding. And create their own problems, within that you know...

the one thing I don't know but that would be interesting to know... is whether Hesse knew either Jung or Freud (or neither)... and how he came to be so exalted among the 60-70s literati who were also absorbing as "authoritative" the mental ramblings of Ken Kesey, Richard Alpert and Abbie Hoffman.

[Guest]

Interesting Amber, thanks (and thanks TT). Good distractions, all.

Creating alternative realities - I read 'Dune' (probably because I was stuck in a situation that confined me, so I managed a very thick, long book!) and enjoyed the desert planet, became aware of water in a way I hadn't imagined.

I will have a go with TGBG, lightly. I haven't read any other Hesse. I do know Alice Miller talked about him somewhere. Probably he was in the right place/right time in the late 50s, having 'done' the Indian trek etc. I mean, John Lennon and Yoko talked a load of baloney sometimes. As we all do!

I think i think about the author's intentions/motivations/thinking a bit too much sometimes (a bit like watching how a film is being made rather than watching the film? no, not quite, but similar) so in some ways a bit of real fluff with bite (Weldon, some Atwood) is easier.

Have you seen what people (presumably guys!!!) have done with TGBG on the web?

People enjoy secrets and inner circles and games and codes and stuff.

(Mostly that type of thing has driven me COMPLETELY NUTS in the past with frustration, irritation and boredom, but hey, that's why I like laughing buddhas! If I can laugh at every emotion/feeling, that's good enough for me.)

I'm not looking for life tools in books now; I'd like entertaining but.....one person's idea of entertainment isn't another's.

[sKePTiKal]

I've had a particulaly overwhelming week or two. I've felt completely paralyzed and at the mercy of my own anxious, overactive mind. Brittle, fragile, unable to communicate well... again. Unable to ask for what I need - coz I have no idea what that is.

It's as if I'm going through the whole FOO experience again - only backwards, up through Alice in Wonderland's rabbit hole and what was shattered into separate pieces the first time... is coming together again - hopefully not mutated!!

I was a bit premature, therefore, in starting this thread I think. The how-tos... how does one describe what is happening, what one does and chooses at the sub and unconscious levels? That's the stuff of dreams and visions... glimpses of the collective state of humanity perhaps. I even mixed up intention and goals... what I previously labelled intentions are goals; intentions would be the how-tos necessary to reach those goals.

Just before the weekend, it felt as though all the circumstances that are the concrete facts of my life were starting to unravel, shatter, get blown away... I even tried to make myself sick - that used to the be only time I got attention from my mom - an unspoken asking for what I needed. Uncharacteristically - I've procrastinated on some work; phone calls and emails. Usually I'm the total opposite - people get what they need from me, immediately because I've anticipated the request. I've started sleeping poorly again... and am not able to eat, because of the tension; everything gives me heartburn.

But what I think I need - only I can give myself. I'm still looking at that.

I realized that the plan I was offered as a means to free myself from my bro only offers that freedom. Nothing else, except perhaps more financial risk. I think I'm going to continue to gather information, facts, figures... and then reassess the cost/benefit again. I'm dragging my feet; stalling; I feel as if there is yet another shoe to drop somewhere... I just don't see it yet. So I feel I have to continue to prepare; be ready... oh yeah... I'm so good at hypervigilance and waiting on pins and needles ready to over-react with all that pent up energy! LOL...

I really DO NOT recommend being in business with FOO members!! Or thinking that one is healed enough to walk into - and unscathed out again - of their games. Don't try this at home! you know? One definitely pays a price... I'm just determined though, that this time, I'll also gain something - even if it's just being able to trust and believe in myself again.

[Guest]

I call mine a nervous breakdown. Or break-up. Sometimes I think to myself it was 'going mad' to become sane (saner).

Re-viewing is probably necessary before the next steps (shame that businesses often don't take any time to learn from reviewing).

[sKePTiKal]

Thanks... but I really can't subscribe to the nervous breakdown description. Despite everything, I still functioned you know? Like a zombie, robot or a cranky, over-tired baby that just needed fed and put down for a nap despite not wanting to... but I still functioned.

I do like that quote from Aristotle, tho - it reminds me of my tag line, a quote from the poet Rothke "I know by going where it is I have to go".

I think the convo Ann, Penny & I were having over on Penny's thread is closer to actuality of what my experience was like... about self-doubt. That may very well be something I struggle with, for the rest of my life. Another term for it, might also be "soul searching"; digging down deep and then going deeper to find something unshakeably firm, reliable, and concrete to hang on to for dear life... by my fingernails, if need be.

Here's what I've come back with:

In one way, at least - Marshall McCluhan missed how TV is like life. The audience is insatiably hungry for "new"... new shows, new formats, new people/actors. Yet each of us has our own "old favorites" - shows that helped support the illusion that life is predictable, stable, comfortable and safe. Without risk. Watching M*A*S*H, you know Hawkeye & his buddies are going to be up to hilarious - and mostly harmless - mischievious fun. And still be able to save lives, when the wounded arive. It was a harmless illusion; one we knew the "trick" inherent in it... it was restful; comforting.

My MomBro FOO, never watch new shows. Their life is completely and totally a re-run in the present day, of the factual circumstances of the trauma that bro & I lived through back in the late 60's. The trauma that didn't have to happen that way... my mom "created" it via her illness... and then blamed first my dad, then me for the problems and trouble. She's still playing the same old script - only this time, the bad-guy is my SIL - who thankfully, is able to resist and ward off being part of the game. Bro is her hapless sidekick this time; not me. He doesn't want to be rescued, shown "reality"; he won't wake up until he wants to.... or he hurts badly enough and doesn't know why.

My close encounter with that weird, alien "reality" was highly dangerous for me, though I thought "OK, I'm healed... know what to watch for... won't get played for a fool... won't get sucked in, this time". I should've listened to my own intuition and not gone; played the whole thing from a distance... but bro played the ace card; he played on my empathy and I truly felt sorry for him and wanted to help. I took as many precautions as I thought would be necessary, to protect myself. And it wasn't enough. I was still wounded by the futility of thinking I was being allowed a chance to make a difference; to do something caring and useful. They still laughed and refused to acknowledge reality; facts. And I still didn't matter at all - to either of them.

Coming back out the other side, I realize that for the new skills I have... all the practice of boundaries, and communication and finding my genuine, 100% authenticated voice... even though they certainly HELPED a great deal... for all those new skills, I could still be emotionally wounded. Yep; still mortal and sentient... still too trusting of the people who've hurt me; still trying to shine sh&t; to find reasons, excuses, ways to take on the responsibility of "them" and all that entails...... again. Ways to take the blame on myself and paint myself as an evil, selfish person... because of wanting to protect myself better than before... to STOP the madness.

And that would involve resigning myself to reliving reruns of the same old script............. again. I tune out of re-runs; can't hardly watch most movies a second time - even if it's been years since I first saw it, because I remember scenery, scenes, dialogue and plot. I would "tune out" of my own life - my own inner life - if resigned myself to the same old script. It was getting close; I read 4 books - including the whole tome of the "Land of Painted Caves". I would, mind you - still function well - but would no longer be "involved" or care about outcomes of the major things on my current to-do list. And I'd resent all of it and not enjoy a thing... almost all Lbrain process; no Rbrain well-being... no real connecting with anyone in 3-D, either.

Only I can break the old script; I'm the only one who knows it exists! But here's the thing... maybe I just don't care anymore. That caring about making a difference for them, ONLY gets me hurt again. I can't trust either of them. They don't care about me, no matter WHAT I say or DO. Caring is a choice; it's not a given - it's not 100% nature or DNA; a good bit of what we choose to care about comes from education, environment, learned values. My environment turned out to be way different - a whole different universe - than MomBro's. Don't know why; it just is. Why doesn't matter. And we can choose to not care (both have a price, I think.)

Perhaps they need their script. Perhaps they'd have nervous breakdowns or commit suicide or kill each other without it. They can keep it, if they want it. I'm over it. The path of action I'm looking for considers the script completely irrelevant; it's something (as the Python says) "completely different". Like taking care of ME, as much as possible; engaging only when necessary with MomBro - keeping my distance. I don't think they're going to be able to get SIL to play, either.

I just have to convince myself once and for all - that I'm not the controlling, selfish, manipulative, power-hungry egofreak - in the script, though I have worn all those signs and tattoos and marks labels at one time or another in the original screenplay of the script (by believing the projections & gaslighting) and bro keeps trying to insert them again because he still believes the projections and gaslighting - all because I ask for what I want, say when I need an answer, and expect at least the civility and basic human respect of being treated as an adult and not being deceived or denigrated or cheated or lied to or left waiting - suspended in limbo, dangling over a precipice - for his highness to respond.

No one else has ever told me I was those things; not even my ex's. And the first time thru the script, my mom-substitute neighbor tried to convince me it wasn't my fault, but she had no idea how deep into confusion I'd been driven; she wasn't successful.

It's just some ego-gratifying (for them) FOO-myth. Like believing my Dad was a bad person. Temperamental, difficult, a perfectionist... egotistical and proud of his success - yep; all that. But that didn't make him bad - he was also extremely kind and generous, willing to try to make people laugh and he worked his butt off to be a success. The MomBro just doesn't get that because someone is different than them, doesn't make them automatically "bad".

[teartracks]

I think the convo Ann, Penny & I were having over on Penny's thread is closer to actuality of what my experience was like... about self-doubt. That may very well be something I struggle with, for the rest of my life. Another term for it, might also be "soul searching"; digging down deep and then going deeper to find something unshakeably firm, reliable, and concrete to hang on to for dear life... by my fingernails, if need be.

I agree.  I admire the excellence with which you are relating your thoughts and experiences.

tt



 

[Hopalong]

I loved your jungle, TT...what a lovely description.

The same quote jumped out at me, (((((PR))))...

"soul searching"; digging down deep and then going deeper to find something unshakeably firm, reliable, and concrete to hang on to for dear life... by my fingernails, if need be.

There you are, drilling like a mighty propeller. It is breathtaking to see your speed and power at times.

What your digging to the "concrete" called up in me was an image of you digging as you must and until you break through...but the bottom, instead of solid, will reveal itself as a curtain that, when you turn unexpectedly at a new angle and slip through, will ease you --no faster and no slower than you need to move-- into a space that is not terrifying-vast, but utter-beauty-vast, dense with tangible sensations of simplicity and peace, and the feeling you have will not be so much being anchored, but floating unafraid in a giantness of peace and all-rightness that dwarfs all preceding events, and knowing you are welcome. Having found out that what's at the bottom is an invitation, not an end.

Do I know this? I'm agnostic.

But I wish it for you.

love,
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

Hops - that's a good image. In my version, there is also no FOO able to impinge on the serenity of it. Fat chance, huh?

Here is something interesting; I'm not completely sure what to make of it...

After working on all the "numbers" of the situation, I wanted to make a proposal to bro. Sort of his last chance to get engaged with me and the business. Instead of trying sending him spreadsheets of many numbers... or trying to explain over the phone in conversation... I wrote a letter and mailed him the paper. Most of the letter was a description of the "landscape" of the situation as I am understanding it - a whole picture analysis. Then I made 4 specific proposals and gave him a deadline to respond to me.

A couple days ago, he called and tentatively agreed to my suggestions. We'll talk more this week or at least he said we would. Because I had pointed out in the letter that I'd been making these suggestions for about a year now and that his lack of response during that time was - in my mind at least - responsible for the seriousness of my position at present... he said to me, that he never intended to make me feel as if he was ignoring me or didn't care. So I told him, well - that's exactly how I felt. That bit, he hasn't responded to yet...

That leads me to believe that this trait of his, is unconscious in it's source. It's like he's had a "come to Jesus" moment and he's temporarily sane... connected to reality and able to see other people in it as people and not just objects within his delusion. It won't last long; the effects of this wear off - and in a month or two he'll be wearing even deeper ruts into the well-worn track of his script again... wondering why everyone's angry with him and why he's so miserable.

I also realized that I did myself a big favor by sending a letter, instead of simply trying to talk to him. I've accidentally, intuitively hit on the best way to communicate with him. When I talk, I think just the sound of my voice, stimulates those old scripts... and he tunes me out. He literally doesn't hear me... and therefore has the ability to deny the subject matter of what we talked about. Verbally, I don't feel all that confident about how I express myself despite public speaking and teaching in the classroom - but as you know, I'm prolific with words on a page, even digital ones. Even though I don't always say something of significance!  LOL....

You'd think I'd relax under the circumstances and feel successful and like I "won"... but I don't. I know without a doubt, that within months I'll be facing the same old, same old again with him on another topic. I don't even trust that we've actually gotten to an agreement over the proposals yet... and won't, until they actually are implemented. My first reaction was to feel "FOOlish" about making a federal case out of this... when bro is making it the whole thing look like a simple misunderstanding at the moment.**

And then I realized something else about how this subtle manipulation works... because of lack of response over a long time, because of the direct communication (in words) that he didn't care, because he is trying to wiggle out of responsibility and accountability for his actions and find a way to blame me (up until this most recent conversation)... because he flat out, literally didn't HEAR me... I felt I had no choice except to respond as strongly and clearly as I could, without directly lobbing a threat or an implied threat in his direction. I pinned the tail of responsibility directly on him, in other words. Where it belongs. And nothing more. But if I had used anger to express myself... or made explicit "or else" threats... the situation would be completely different.

It is precisely the unconscious M.O. of the seriously P-A person, to drive those around him/her absolutely nuts - to the extremes of infuriated exasperation... because then they can point; laugh; condemn; criticize and DEFLECT responsibility onto the person having the emotional meltdown.

**My emotional response wasn't out of line; under the circumstances I've exerted way more self-control than people who know my temper would expect of me. Especially given the triggers to old anger, in the present situation. It's a normal response. But, even so - since I know there is no acceptance or recognition that how I feel "matters"... historically... I'm not being seduced by this quasi-apology from my bro. It's only temporary sanity.

I'm going to stay the course on the rest of my strategic and tactical planning. And I'm not letting my guard down for one second - not giving him a single opportunity to get me "hooked" through feeling sorry for him again. He is an adult man, over 50 years of age. He has choices; he's educated (well sort of)... he is not helpless. I do not need to protect him anymore. He has a mother.

And I need my own clear and strong boundaries for my own sanity. We are business partners, but we do not have a personal relationship beyond the fact that we were children together and lived through hell. I moved on, survived, and found a way to heal... I have suggested to him, that he should do the same... but my responsibility ends there.

[Guest]

Maybe we should carry a warning notice:

'DO NOT get us in to a position where we have to write you a letter.'

Works for me. Strange how some people only respond to written directions. Strange how when I do write to them, they seem to believe that I will indeed carry through with my intentions. Even when I have been on very shaky legal ground!

I've reached the stage in the past where I have said: put it in writing to me, I won't talk about it. You have something to say to me? Write it. Put your belief/courage on the paper.

It's almost as if the written word, on paper, makes it real and gives the idea a power, a physical presence. Maybe this makes it a 'thing' (to our opponents), a 'thing' that has to be dealt with, like an invoice.

Very sad that so many situations end up like this.

[sKePTiKal]

I think that's the "thing" that's interested me, Guest...

me talking - either face to face or on the phone - is less real, less important to him... less heard, than something in writing. Matters less... and maybe that's part of his problem relationally. Could be part of a learning disability, too... some students take in and "know" information better via reading than hearing; it's like they have a short in their hearing "receiver" so bits and pieces drop out of the thread of words and they miss the connection between the subject and predicate in the sentence; maybe it's like ADD or ADHD... in that the attention wavers at such a high rate of frequency - tuning in/out - that it's disrupting his ability to get the complete message. He could stick the letter in his pocket and read it in the can, out at practice with his team, sitting in his car... more than once.

Another observation, is that when talking... he'll latch on to one phrase, or a reaction he's having to one phrase of words - and he's off talking and responding before I've finished what I was saying and I can't interrupt or get him back on track until he finishes. Like he's jumping to conclusions... and I'll have to say "Noooo... what I was going to say before you interrupted was _________." Sometimes it's really hard to redirect him from that wrong conclusion, too. It's way more real to him than anything I'm really saying.

Almost like how spouses can finish each other's sentences, except he's way out in left field with his conclusions about what I'm saying. The image I have in my head is that he's trapped inside of a black bubble and wanting to connect with someone anyone even me and so by interrupting this way and superimposing his idea of what I'm going to say he thinks he has a better chance of making that connection and getting out of the black bubble.... because no one can see in and he can't see what's outside the bubble. And he doesn't want anyone inside, either - because he thinks he's safe there, even if he is really lonely. There are huge warning signs, razor wire, landmines, nukes... and a whole sensory deprivation zone worse than the atmosphere of Mordor that other people can't even breathe in.

I can't imagine how he functions or tries to function this way. I guess it's not working too well.... but he does believe it's the rest of world that screwed up; not him... and my pleas to start individual therapy have fallen on deaf ears. And somehow, he seems to keep going on this way - he hasn't hit the wall yet and that's another mystery to me.

[Guest]

Interesting Amber. I wonder too how some people don't hit that wall....but...I have seen levels of denial so strong that..well: to consider change is death...and people will rather actually die than change. And there's the problem of the buzzing of the verbal/aural external world. You know, like advertising, the more you hear a jingle or phrase, the more you accept it as part of the world...and I guess, if you're prone to delusions...you could tell yourself anything about what the external buzz means. It could provide you with fodder for your delusions. Or something. (I'm out on a very theoretical limb here.)

The gift of fear book - I think he talks about hearing the words 'I'm going to kill you' and what it means, when the person is likely to be serious etc. I wonder how many people say those words and how many hear them. And when they are meant. I think I would always take them seriously.

What you describe about the latching on to phrases...going off in his own world, reacting etc...I have known people do this. Very much locked inside their own heads, their own reality. Can be affecting to witness.

On the other hand: when you put something in writing, when you sign your name, people know that you're serious. Up to that point it can be shooting the breeze. Oh we can be all talk but where's the action? kind of thing. I had this experience a while back: the shock when people realise that you were serious, that you meant it. Do they learn? I have no idea. It depends if they think the world is there to serve their purpose or not, perhaps.

I think we all, to an extent, don't believe that things will happen until they do. Mostly we behave as if we'll live forever. Mostly we ignore warning signs until the bank seizes our home, we lose our job, our spouse leaves us, our child ends up in hospital having their stomach pumped, we end up killing a bunch of people on the freeway because we took a phone call at 60mph. I guess taking risks, being in denial about risks, ignoring the 'buzz' is something we could all do - to an extent. The vast majority of us will care about things possibly going wrong and at some point will come out of that denial. A small percentage of course don't care at all and there must be a sliding scale of not caring much to not caring at all, I guess. In some ways it seems that there is a fine balance between healthy delusion and lack of survival skills. You can't believe in your invincability in the face of the thing that will eat you: but I see people who almost stand there thinking "this isn't real, I don't have to concern myself". Maybe we should leave them out on the savannah.

Might you consider following up your latest phone conversation with another letter, detailing what you both said? Otherwise the phone convo, in his mind, might have overidden the deadline in your letter. 

[sKePTiKal]

Thanks Guest - I'm gonna think over some of those ideas. Not for the first time! LOL... but revisit the idea that the MomBro actually do live in a parallel universe that's defined by their own fears, lack of ability to connect emotion to the actions they've taken/not taken that cause an "effect"; lack of respect for other people as real people with feelings and the ability to act any way they want... self-soothing delusions, etc. I do have my own, and they're not always benign. I'm wary of them.

We left it, that we'd have another conversation this week (his deadline hasn't arrived yet, in any case). I'm not waiting by the phone!   

So, I want to see what happens. Stalking the lion... upwind... I want to see if he can engage more actively and honestly with me. I want to see what happens with SIL after school lets out this week. In my reality, there are many things that can't be controlled or controlled for. Things can change in an instant - and do. Things that are important when they happen are often unanticipated; they can impact context, meaning, significance in unexpected ways too. I no longer believe these events are automatically complete disasters - as I was taught. I understand there are often silver linings... as long as I wait for the full picture to come together before "doing" something based on a wrong or incomplete set of data. Since I'm in charge of the "timeline" right now... I of course, built in some space to account for the occasional "delay" or stalling from bro. There will be other things to do that will also take time - even if he still agrees to accept the pieces of my proposal and move forward with implementation. And I think our by-laws require "consent" in writing... I'm going to find out while I'm waiting to hear from bro and put someone else on "stand by" for a board meeting, once I get an idea of when bro can make time for one.

Keeping the hunting metaphor going but shifting to fish... I'm starting to wonder about the "hook" into the FOO Fun&Games that's always used on me. I used to think it was anger - but now, I think I'm wrong. When I look at the hook being "set" in my own empathy response... I can see both how deadly that can be (betrayal giving rise to anger & eventually NC)... and I guess I never, ever once asked myself if everyone everywhere in all circumstances are actually WORTHY of empathy. And also... the extent of the empathy; for instance my old habit of throwing myself under a bus - empathy at my own expense - for people who don't give a fig for what they can say I did to myself... even tho' they "hooked" me into trying to help and didn't ever say - "Oh, look out for that bus".

I hope that makes sense! My FOO's main game is a mobius strip.

[Guest]

That makes a lot of sense, all round, Amber. Including the mobius strip.

Empathy is useful when the other person wants/needs/naturally evokes it through being very human....empathy for some people can be like being so affected by a novel, that you want to 'help' or feel for the characters in real life, even though they're two-dimensional. Ha, not a great comparison!

Not sure it's being worthy of empathy or not..maybe it's more practical than that: in as much as empathisiing with the snake is a total waste of time. But really, empathy is only useful when it's two-way: sent, received, understood. Or used to understand someone for your own benefit, not theirs. If that makes sense.

I'm getting empathy for me. Taken a very long time.

[sKePTiKal]

Not sure it's being worthy of empathy or not..maybe it's more practical than that: in as much as empathisiing with the snake is a total waste of time.  But really, empathy is only useful when it's two-way: sent, received, understood. Or used to understand someone for your own benefit, not theirs. If that makes sense.

So.... there's no such thing as one-way empathy? Would that be sympathy, instead - as in sympathizing with someone's feelings or circumstances? Being able to see myself in someone else's shoes...

Maybe it's just my programming (another bug in the scripting?) - but I was definitely raised to "care" and "feel for others", without expecting the same back. In fact, it was pointed out that the expectation of a mirroring back of that same concern and being on the same wavelength was just flat out egotistical, selfish, and childish.... and destructive to relationships. I was taught that most of the time, people "like" someone else more than they are "liked" in return; that this was normal and "the way things are".

No one sacrificed all - threw themselves under the bus - for me; no matter how many times I was expected to do this for Mom or Bro.

This came up once in therapy, but we didn't explore it then. I am struggling with intimacy in relationships these days - for a lot of reasons. The old "where in the world is the boundary" question keeps coming up too. It feels like I've been sent out onto the field without knowing what game we're playing or what the rules are - not even which team I'm on. Part of my difficulty, I think... is that I actively keep people at a distance... prevent intimacy... a result of how I was injured by trusting my mom to care about me. Her methods of mothering me... all resulted in worse feelings of abandonment and rejection; she didn't have clue one how to go about it. But I damn well had to care about & for her!! No matter what I felt about her.

So I wonder how much of this confusion over empathy that I have impacts intimacy? It sounds like there's a logical connecton there. I wonder if I just feel safer - being invisible - not known; not available to be cared for - because it's always turned out badly before and I therefore expect and anticipate that wound... that hasn't even happened. Fear, in other words.

[Hopalong]

I think caring can be saying, doing, helping, rousing, encouraging, analysing, supporting, advising...

I think empathy is more being present to the other, willing to witness.
Offering something kind and spacious, where they can sense the company of your heart.

Hops